Pics of National protest against Japan become a permanent U.N. Security Council member in China

wait a min...are they protesting against "Japan become a permanent U.N. Security Council member" or against "Japan changing history text book"? Maybe both?

Anyway, I agree that Japan should teach the history as it is, as truthful as it could be so Japan will not become the aggressor and make the same mistake again.

But perhaps we all need a truthful self reflection, not just Japan.

Agree, we both need self reflection.
One one side, china government need to direct people to protest in the right way, few japan store been damaged is not the right way of doing it.
on the other hand japan need to be serious about asian countries's attitude on how it treat the history.

out

Revisionist history is nothing new. US does it all the time just pick up a elementary school book written by a union school teacher within the last 4 years.

Japan wanting to gloss over their evil acts...i would want to also. You hear Russians talking about the 30million they exterminated?

I forgive Japan. "Trust but verify" (Reagan)

They have more right to that seat than France.

Oh they did not do anything as bad as Japan? Lets talk about the crusades.

Point is we must forgive. If I can forgive the crap they did to our POW's the rest of you should.

Rapier28 said
I've answered these type of threads (by wecomeinpeace) so many times...

Well, I've obviously gotten you upset since the 2, maybe 3 times that you and I have discussed these issues feels to you like "so many times". That's a shame.

Firstly, I'd like to make it clear that I am NOT attempting to absolve the Japanese government of any guilt. Some people here seem to think I'm defending the actions fo the Japanese government, which I am not. I am simply making the point that the pot calling the kettle black get's a little tiresome at times.

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
Japan needs to clean up its act, admit and apologize its transgressions, and enact reparation to the Chinese people. And the CCP needs to tidy its own nest before it starts pointing at others.

Personally I think the U.S should pressure Japan to apologize properly and make reparations and compensation. "Don't wanna apologize? Well maybe we just won't promise to defend you anymore. Here ya go China, revenge time."

As usual, the victims in poitical exchanges, wars and such, is always the people, and not governments. Rapier28, you seem to get rather upset if anyone says anything bad about the Communist Party and take it as an attack on China. You are responding through emotion. I personally have high hopes for the future of China and am elated to see some of her people starting to do well and China developing quickly, but there's still a long, long way to go. The continued corruption of the CCP, their misdirection of funds into their own pockets, and their misuse of funds for military, space and cosmetic, face-giving purposes is not helping the issue. Nor is their old-world, propagandist, media-suppressing, history-clouding ways. No government on the face of the earth is free of guilt, and the CCP is right up there with the guiltiest of them all.

I was tempted to pick apart your post piece by piece and provide links and quotes to rebut your claims, as you did to mine, but both of us could do that back and forth till the cows come home and not get anywhere. There's plenty of stuff to show why they're bad, and plenty of things to show that they are at least making progress. (BTW, I've never read the Epoch Times before. You can't get it in China and the websites are blocked). I'll resist the bait of the inflammatory tone which pervades all of your posts ("ROFL", "rubbish", "you need to educate yourself", "you're just a typical outsider") and won't continue with this debate beyond this post regardless of how you reply, because I don't enjoy those types of useless, inflammatory one-up-man-ship exchanges, and I sincerely believe that you, I, and my Chinese and Taiwanese friends here in China are both on the same track and have the same goals and aspirations for China, just with slightly different views on how it should be done and who it should be done by.

Here's to the Chinese people.

[edit on 2005/4/12 by wecomeinpeace]

wecomeinpeace, i agree.

My tone was bad because i was just on another forum before posting the last message and by "many times" i wasn't referring to you in particular, mainly that other forum.

Yeah, you are right, most of us even though we might defend the current state of affairs do still want to some form of Democracy in China eventually.

However, that is always balanced out by a fear of progressing too fast with chaos being the result.

We simply do not want to see a break up of China, if given a option for revolution or status quo, i will take the status quo.

www.cnn.com...
www.cnn.com...

if the report is correct, China might be over reacting a bit.

[edit on 15-4-2005 by twchang]

It's simply a case of degrees.

Of course every country does stuff in it's textbooks that put's it abit off centre.

But some of Japan's go a bit further then that. For example, it alledges that China provoked Japan into an attack on the Marco Polo bridge to start the invasion. It suggests that sex slaves were volunteers and Japan's goal was the liberation of Asia after being provoked and squeezed.

The new Japanese school textbooks omit references on sex slaves and human testing by the Japanese. It's quite horrific, for example, Japanese army doctor trainees would be told to practice on Chinese. The Chinese would be shot, stabbed and then the Trainee would be told to fix him. Most of the time, those trainee's dont kow what there are doing and end up killing the "patient".

This is not even mentioning the chemical weapons and chemical and biological tests on Chinese civilians that are also emitted.

Most of China's emissions are internal matters, unrelated to a third party, just like American Indians history etc etc.

[edit on 15-4-2005 by rapier28]

Originally posted by rapier28
BTW, twchang, are you Taiwanese? If so, who do you support and what do you feel about the Taiwan-Mainland relationship right now?

Oh boy, let's not turn this thread into another argument over the Taiwan-China issue. There's enough of those and the argument is endless. Keep it on topic, lads.

hmmmmm there might be things we might not know at all..... It could be political movement. Maybe this is the best chance to block Japan from getting the UN seat? Or maybe there are many other reasons?

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
Oh boy, let's not turn this thread into another argument over the Taiwan-China issue. There's enough of those and the argument is endless. Keep it on topic, lads.

Yeah, i edited it out before your posted your message, thought it might be a bad idea in hindsight.

Japan Times Article

I think this article is quite good.

One of the problems with the Japan-China relationship right now is the spiral that neither countries seem able or willing to absolve.

For example, China's nationalism stems largely from Jiang Zemin's and Koizumi's respective policies and decisions in government. There are also other interests at play.

Only one country apart from China and Japan issued a statement after the Chinese riots.

That same country also has the most to lose if China and Japan kiss and make up, for both harbour internal resentment towards it in some ways.

Originally posted by Reaganwasourgreatest
They have more right to that seat than France.

Oh they did not do anything as bad as Japan? Lets talk about the crusades.

- No ridiculous infantile anti-French comment to outrageous Reags huh?
If I thought you were serious I'd suggest treatment!

Anyhoo, dumb absurdities aside......

..... I thought this latest 'tension' was all really all about the dispute over where Chinese and Japanese territorial waters are because substantial oil and gas reserves have been found in the south China seas.


www.economist.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.economist.com...

- IMO Japan should shut up and keep her head down and hope people forget what she did.

In my view Japan should not be allowed onto the security council and her tiny - but growing - militarism should be halted and reversed ASAP. A 'self-defence force' is perfectly acceptable but IMO anything beyond that is most definitely not.

Japan is not like Germany.
After WW2 Germany was changed markedly and has stayed changed markedly, Japan has not. As has been already said Japan talks of the shame of defeat, not that what she did was wrong, a massive difference.

(and dispite the attempts of some here to claim otherwise the so-called 'Japanese apologies' for her grossly outrageous war crimes have been the most minimal, mild and evasive non-apolgises ever IMO.

What do you call an apology backed by years of denial and evasions?

Exactly. It's not a genuine apology or expression of regret at all......and certainly nothing backed by anything tangible as the British war veterans and the women of asia have found.)

Naturally the USA hopes to use Japan in her little power games (re China) as time goes by and more and more Americans forget the revolting Japanese treatment of US pows.
This is typical from those so blinkered and foolish that they are unable to do anything but attempt to cram every aspect of human life into their childishly simple 'left' and 'right' ideology.

For those wondering why the Japanese treatment of the Chinese gets little 'air time' - especially relating to the Japanese biological warfare experiments and crimes against humanity - one might consider the truth that this was all kept quiet because the USA gave out umteen immunities against prosecution in return for the Japanese biological data and expertise.

.....and if we're talking about what is left out of the history books I wonder just how many American kids are taught that!?

Check out www.chineseholocaust.org...
or just google Japanese Unit 731 to start finding out all about it.


[edit on 15-4-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- IMO Japan should shut up and keep her head down and hope people forget what she did.

In my view Japan should not be allowed onto the security council and her tiny - but growing - militarism should be halted and reversed ASAP. A 'self-defence force' is perfectly acceptable but IMO anything beyond that is most definitely not.

[edit on 15-4-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Well...if you notice they kept their heads down in the past 60 years and people don't forget much.

I don't support Japan being in the permanent security council (Japan is actually one of the current security council). But actually I don't support any country to be in the permanent security council. The permanent security council is necessary, perhaps, but no country is innocent enough to be in such a council, if what a country did in the past is to be considered.

Japan is not like Germany.
After WW2 Germany was changed markedly and has stayed changed markedly, Japan has not. As has been already said Japan talks of the shame of defeat, not that what she did was wrong, a massive difference.

Hmm...in my point of view Japan has changed a lot. hmmmm, who said Japan talks only of the shame of defeat?? I thought they are talking about the whole thing.

Japan should apologize etc if they haven't already done so....but what I don't really like is how other countries use what Japan did in the past as a political tools. Each time a government wants to redirect tension or if they have some small dispute with Japan they just mention the WW2 and that's it.

Originally posted by twchang
Japan should apologize etc if they haven't already done so....but what I don't really like is how other countries use what Japan did in the past as a political tools. Each time a government wants to redirect tension or if they have some small dispute with Japan they just mention the WW2 and that's it.

True, but if they admitted, apologized for, and made proper reparations for those events, then such redirections would lose their effect. Nobody pulls the Nazi card on Germany these days. No one would dare, and they would be making themselves look bad by doing so.

BTW, just got a message from a friend that he hears rumour there may be more protests tomorrow morning. Probably just rumour, but...

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
True, but if they admitted, apologized for, and made proper reparations for those events, then such redirections would lose their effect. Nobody pulls the Nazi card on Germany these days. No one would dare, and they would be making themselves look bad by doing so.

BTW, just got a message from a friend that he hears rumour there may be more protests tomorrow morning. Probably just rumour, but...

There may be but it won't be like last week.

China's government is going to stop this one or mabye control it extremely, extremely tight. The Japanese FM is visiting as well as PM Howard of Australia. Too much protests will add too much to the bilateral tensions, decrease business confidence and be detrimental to China's growth.

Isn't it great when a Communist government first priority is to get rich.

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
True, but if they admitted, apologized for, and made proper reparations for those events, then such redirections would lose their effect. Nobody pulls the Nazi card on Germany these days. No one would dare, and they would be making themselves look bad by doing so.

That is very true but...I just found this on another site:

"During a certain period in the not-too-distant past, Japan, following a mistaken national policy, advanced along the road to war, only to ensnare the Japanese people in a fateful crisis, and, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. In the hope that no such mistake be made in the future, I regard, in a spirit of humility, these irrefutable facts of history, and express here once again my feelings of deep remorse and state my heartfelt apology. Allow me also to express my feelings of profound mourning for all victims, both at home and abroad, of that history."

Not theoretically good enough? In fact, this was the stated public apology for Japan's war crimes delivered by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama. And this was in 1995.

www.freerepublic.com...

Although it is more of a personal apology, it shows that some Japanese are sorry for what their country did in WW2.

Also, Japan's cities was fire and nuclear bombed by US, and militarily occupied by US for a while after WW2...in a way a punishment.

And then there are the billions of dollars paid to China by Japan.

So the problem is, do they pay enough for their crime? or should they do more?

[edit on 15-4-2005 by twchang]

[edit on 15-4-2005 by twchang]

Originally posted by twchang
And then there are the billions of dollars paid to China by Japan.

So the problem is, do they pay enough for their crime? or should they do more?

Are, you see, this question is tricky.

Firstly, Germans paid much, much more money with a smaller economy in direct compensation for it's crimes against Jews, the Japanese government managed to avoid this by admitting PRC as sole controller of Taiwan (which now they reneged by supporting Taiwan with U.S) and paying cheap loans.

Those cheap loans were used to fund Japanese companies investments in China during the 70's, 80's etc etc. In some ways, it actually helps Japanese companies more then China, however they can be no denying that the initial Japanese cheap loans started the investment drive in China.

I remember getting my first nintendo in China when i was like in 90, 91, when i was still in Shanghai. So during that initial period, Japanese investment and trade helped China to develop it's infrastructure etc etc. In fact, China and Japan maintained very good relationships throughout the Murayama years.

The relationship only broke down after Koizumi took office, after 1 year he fired his FM who was Murayama's daughter. That was symbolically a very strong signal.

EDIT: UPDATE:

HA, what did i tell you.

China attempts to block protests against Japan

BEIJING -- China tried Friday to block a third weekend of anti-Japanese protests, telling its people not to damage relations with Tokyo as activists spread messages on the Internet calling for demonstrations in Beijing, Shanghai and other cities.

"Express your patriotic passion in an orderly manner," the Beijing police department said in a statement posted on the Internet. It warned of possible legal action against protesters.

...

Police in Shanghai sent a similar message to cell phone users in the city of 15 million. "Express warm patriotic sentiments through proper channels," it said. "Obey the law. Maintain order."

hey wecomeinpeace, did you get a text message??



[edit on 15-4-2005 by rapier28]

Originally posted by twchang
Well...if you notice they kept their heads down in the past 60 years and people don't forget much.

- Sorry but it's the years of equivocation and the total lack of anything of substance done for the victims of their criminality as well as this convoluted word-play that has me doubt those 'personal apologies'.

(Yes I know they paid out a little to some but by God it was a little, unlike the Germans)

Hmm...in my point of view Japan has changed a lot.

- I am referring to the Japanese gov, not the people.
I am quite certain the regular Japanese person is a fine human being just the same as anyone else.

One must also bear in mind that there was no great 'clear out' or de-politicisation of the then corridors of power in Japan as there was in Germany.
Japanese war crimes trials were few, brief and short and nothing like equivelent to the wholescale 'denazification' Germany underwent.

Japan should apologize etc if they haven't already done so.

- Yes, a formal national Japanese apology from their Emperor, not a personal one from their Prime Minister, nor the word-play we have had to date along with some substantial reparations to those whose lives they ruined, before it is too late, would be a massive and very significant start to healing this wound, IMO.

...but what I don't really like is how other countries use what Japan did in the past as a political tools.

- .....as opposed to those "other countries" who let them get away with the current outrageous state of affairs because of the contemporary political machinations of those "other coutries"?! You know who I mean.
Come on.

Each time a government wants to redirect tension or if they have some small dispute with Japan they just mention the WW2 and that's it.

- China has a right to feel massively aggrieved at the manner in which her 'hurt' has been pretty much ignored by the world IMO.

Worse is that the US in particular pardoned, sheltered and paid Japanese war criminals for their research and biological work based on the murder and callous suffering they inflicted on many many hundreds of thousands if not millions.

(some estimates put the Japanese murder of Chinese at 20millions +)

Imagine if it turned out the UK had hidden Josef Mengele and several members of his staff, pardoned them, continued to use and paid them and was using this inhuman research ill gotten through the program of industrial slaughter on innocents........and then kept the entire matter quiet for decades until after his death?
Can you picture anyone not having, at minimum, disgust and ill feeling to all concerned in that case?

Do you not realise that for all Germany's efforts - far far greater than those of the Japanese state - some people still do feel like that regarding her?
Is it any wonder people still feel 'tension' regarding Japan and WW2?

(and also wonder what the hell happened to their then US ally to have become so cruelly selfish and done what she did for those war criminals?)

If matters were reversed you can be sure as hell the US would take a long long time coming to terms with those that treated them that way (and spent so long denying and sof soaping it, hmmm?).

A little clarity and reality is needed here IMO.
I'm not usually one for quoting Margaret Thatcher but even she couldn't manage to be wrong on everything.

She said, quite rightly IMO, that it would take at least 3 or 4 generations before the world moved on sufficiently to begin to forgive Germany and Japan for what they did - providing they gave the world good reason to believe they were genuinely sorry for the damage they did.

IIRC 3 or 4 generations is about 75 - 100yrs but on the genuine contrition side of things only Germany fulfills that condition.


[edit on 15-4-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

rapier28 wrote:
Police in Shanghai sent a similar message to cell phone users in the city of 15 million. "Express warm patriotic sentiments through proper channels," it said. "Obey the law. Maintain order."

hey wecomeinpeace, did you get a text message??

No, I didn't get any message. (Damn! ) Although I'm with China Unicom. Maybe it was only sent to China Mobile users.

sminkeypinkey said:
Worse is that the US in particular pardoned, sheltered and paid Japanese war criminals for their research and biological work based on the murder and callous suffering they inflicted on many many hundreds of thousands if not millions.
...
Imagine if it turned out the UK had hidden Josef Mengele and several members of his staff, pardoned them, continued to use and paid them and was using this inhuman research ill gotten through the program of industrial slaughter on innocents........and then kept the entire matter quiet for decades until after his death?
Can you picture anyone not having, at minimum, disgust and ill feeling to all concerned in that case?

I agree with most of your post, but don't forget Operation Paperclip.

[edit on 2005/4/15 by wecomeinpeace]

I need to point out a fact, China just gave up the payment for its loses during WWII right after the end of the war, which shows Chinese people want to make good relationship with japan and the course of this protest is what japan did recently but not for things during WWII. Government's control is a joke from my personal view,did you see any other country don't have police while people are protesting in the street?

believe me or not i am from China mainland and you are also free to believe anyone not.

ps: i have put a new thread about the new protest this week, please go to see it ASAP. lol ^_^

The original poster was kind enough to collect and post some more pics, they are available here
politics.abovetopsecret.com...

That thread is closed, but please reference it and discuss the new pics in this one.