On a side note, mbkennel, I'm enjoying this debate - you have intelligent replies which I respect!

Saudis suddenly triple (!!!!) their oil reserves?

Oh please. That's entirely preposterous.

In the Mideast, actual facts about the oil reserves are literally considered "state secrets" and you can be imprisoned for revealing facts without permission.

There is no independent auditing anywhere near the level that major Western oil majors and countries are subject to.

And what's more, the OPEC rules make sure that their quota is proportional to each countries' reserves.

"shockingly" enough, after this rule started, all sorts of OPEC countries said "hey we have more oil than we thought". Any independent auditing and geophysical validation? Yeah, as soon as they have a bratwurst and beer bash inside the Grand Mosque at Mecca.

It's BS anyway. Once peak oil really hits, OPEC will be irrelevant. Everybody will be producing every barrel that they possibly can.

Does anybody remember the Texas Railroad Commission today? Once upon a time, they were the equivalent of OPEC. For whatever historical reasons, they set the quota for production at Texan oil wells {starting back when the railroads were the industrial titans of the nation}, and as Texas oil production and prices went, so did US and world oil. Somebody noticed a small blurb in a business paper in 1971, "The Texas Railroad Commission allowed a 100% production". That was the date that Hubbert predicted as peak for US and Texan oil, something like 20 years before.

That was also the date the Texas Railroad Commission ceased to be a global economic powerbroker.

Anyway, it would be great (sort of) if the new Saudi tripling of oil reserves were true.

But there ain't no way it is. If if were so, they would have found, by probability, at least two
supergiant Ghawar-size fields and many others which by modern standards would be immense discoveries. (Ghawar is the name of the largest oil field in the world, by far, and was found in Saudi Arabia in maybe the 1930's....)

You can't hide those from the rest of the planet---the drillers would know, the oil field servicers would know, the activity from their discovery and exploitation would be obvious.

This "tripling" of Saudi "reserves" wasn't done by the drill bit or the seismograph. It was done by pencil and mendacity.

The point of Peak Oil is that nobody has been finding fields like that any more for quite a while. All the increased production comes from superior exploitation of existing known fields.

At some point, technology will get all the oil that it reasonably feasible to get in all fields.

When you have not many new fields, and certainly not enough new ones to offset depletion of old ones, and production is maxed, you get peak oil. It is a simple matter of arithmetic and logic. The facts that go into this obvious and unavoidable fact are starting to happen.

It's the same thing with global climate change. If the atmosphere changes, it is inevitable by the laws of physics that the climate MUST change. Required input is true and known so by direct measurement. And measurement now shows the second. Unavoidable factual logic.

We just noticed the north atlantic thermohaline conveyer is sputtering. Oops.

In the Mideast, actual facts about the oil reserves are literally considered "state secrets" and you can be imprisoned for revealing facts without permission.

So the Minister speaking to the conference is in jail? I don't think so. And why did Greenspan and oil exec's from the West not rebuff these statements? Furthermore, if the auditing is so lax compared to the West, do you only accept their data if it shows to favor Peak Oil Theory?

No - that does not cut it, I'm afraid.

Originally posted by turbonium
Note that the oil reserves claimed by Saudi Arabia alone (1.2 trillion barrels) exceed what the Peakers claim are the total recoverable oil reserves for the entire planet. Let's pause here for a minute and think about the significance of that: one tiny patch of land, accounting for less than than 1/2 of 1% of the earth's total surface area, potentially contains more oil that the 'Peak' pitchmen claim the entire planet has to offer! Is there not something clearly wrong with this picture?

Yes there is clearly something wrong with this picture, namely the fact that Saudi Arabia has 1.2 trillion barrels of reserves.

Even if they did--I'll grant it for the sake of argument--1.2 trillion barrels is about 35 years worth of oil at present consumption rates (with growth figured in). If we generously allow another 1 trillion barrels in all the rest of the world, we're still looking at less than a century of oil. So the peak isn't in the next year or two, but the next decade or two. Fine. It is still a problem, all it means is that we have sufficient time to plan for the problem.

Oil is finite. You cannot spin it any other way. Sooner or later we will reach the peak of oil production. You cannot argue otherwise. The supply is not so great that we can use it at present levels for 1000 years. That would require something like 200-300 trillion barrels of undiscovered oil, something that is clearly absurd. So being generous, maybe there is 2-3 trillion recoverable barrels left in the world (excluding heavy oils, sand oil, shale oil and reserves that are energy/capital intensive to recover). Go ahead and find me a consensus in the petroleum world that there is more than 3 trillion recoverable barrels in the world including known and to be discovered reserves. There's probably only a handful of fringe petroleum geologists that would say otherwise I'm guessing. Between now and 2015 I believe various sources have estimated that daily consumption will go from the present day 80-odd million barrels per day to 120-odd million barrels per day. Let's just assume an average of 100 million odd barrels per day and 3 trillion barrels in reserve. That is 36.5 billion barrels per year. Or about 82 years of oil left. We've used about 1 trillion barrels thus far, so the peak would then be about 2025 or so I think instead of 2005. And that is with probably preposterous numbers (like 3 trillion remaining barrels). Under the best of circumstances we have two decades to start planning. But I've yet to read of any reliable source that thinks there is anywhere near 3 trillion recoverable barrels. So I'm guessing the end is coming sooner. But what do I know besides not to trust the Saudis?

1.2 trillion barrels is about 35 years worth of oil at present consumption rates (with growth figured in). If we generously allow another 1 trillion barrels in all the rest of the world, we're still looking at less than a century of oil. So the peak isn't in the next year or two, but the next decade or two. Fine. It is still a problem, all it means is that we have sufficient time to plan for the problem.

OK - I think a middle ground can be reached here. ANY resource is finite, and oil is no exception, in my opinion. But the scare-mongering tactics currently being preached by the oil barons are way over the top - especially the way it's combined with a sickening de-population agenda.

As far as who to trust - the oil elitist group is not exactly one to take at their word, I'm sure you would agree. Remember, they have a long and proven track record of subterfuge (Rockefeller, etc.) regarding alternative methods that have been proven effective, but were never allowed to see the light of day by the oil empire. They will stop at nothing, even murder, to maintain their despicable dominance in the energy sector.

Play the devil's game and we will all get burned.......

PEAK OIL YOUR BOTTOM?

What about MY bottom????

Seems to me evrybody is worried about they're OWN bottoms nowdays.......and that seems to be the crux of the whole issue.

Personal bottom lube....makes slippin through life a tad MORE tolareble.....

its all in the bottom lube....................and how slippery YOU are.

Originally posted by turbonium

1.2 trillion barrels is about 35 years worth of oil at present consumption rates (with growth figured in). If we generously allow another 1 trillion barrels in all the rest of the world, we're still looking at less than a century of oil. So the peak isn't in the next year or two, but the next decade or two. Fine. It is still a problem, all it means is that we have sufficient time to plan for the problem.

OK - I think a middle ground can be reached here. ANY resource is finite, and oil is no exception, in my opinion. But the scare-mongering tactics currently being preached by the oil barons are way over the top - especially the way it's combined with a sickening de-population agenda.

As far as who to trust - the oil elitist group is not exactly one to take at their word, I'm sure you would agree. Remember, they have a long and proven track record of subterfuge (Rockefeller, etc.) regarding alternative methods that have been proven effective, but were never allowed to see the light of day by the oil empire. They will stop at nothing, even murder, to maintain their despicable dominance in the energy sector.

Play the devil's game and we will all get burned.......

This forum is filled with hard statistics from real life petro geologists, most of whom agree that we're right around the peak. Again, if this is fear mongering, where are the real statistics to argue that the peak is much farther off? The real stats are not coming from the "oil elite". The oil elite is cooking the books to come up with things like 1.2 trillion barrels of reserves in Saudi Arabia (meanwhile, Gwahar is breathing its last breath trying to keep up with current demand, but yeah, 1.2 trillion barrels of reserves that no one has ever heard of before....).

And there is no sickening depopulation agenda. The overpopulation agenda is what is sickening. Depopulation is just the planets way of evening things out. Face it, we've reached just about peak everything--aquifers are being sucked dry, so we're at peak water. Fisheries are depleated, so we're at peak fishing. Soil is being eroded, so we're at peak soil. We're at peak various metals. We're at peak "insert resource here". The exact date of each event is subject to change, but, there is no doubt all resources are being depleted rapidly. It doesn't exactly matter if there is 30 years of oil or 80 years of oil if the Western U.S. states have sucked the Colorado River dry and depleted every last ounce of their groundwater does it? They're not going to make it. Oil is just likely the major event that will start the decline.

As far as surpressed alternatives--what are they? These "alternatives" have been discussed at length in other threads. Most of them are not surpressed, nor even practical. Oil is, pound for pound, the best energy source on the planet. The real crime is that we've wasted it on personal transportation for all these years. But there is no secret energy to power cars that is better than oil that the oil companies are sitting on. There is no secret source for fertilizers, plastics and medicines.

Also, I find the notion that oil companies have murdered to maintain their dominance of the energy sector absurd. Countries might murder for access to oil, but ExxonMobil, Shell, SaudiAramaco are not out there killing people and mobilizing armies. Not that these are innocent companies, or fighting for the common good. But, to wildly assert that they're murdering people is a bit of a stretch.

So let's go back to the beginning--first you assert Peak Oil is not true. Then you assert it is not true because the Saudi's magically discovered 1 trillion extra barrels of oil (how geologists missed a discovery that is 5 times larger than all discovered Saudi fields combined is a mystery). Then you assert that we can't trust oil companies (Saudi Arabia essentially being such an oil company). So which is it? Are the Saudi's lying? If so, we're back to the hard facts that there is probably somewhere in the vicinity of 700 billion to 1 trillion barrels of recoverable oil left in the world. Peak Oil this year or next by that estimate, and about 30 years before all easily extactable oil is extracted. Or, are the Saudi's telling the truth? Then why should we believe them as opposed to the other evil, murdering lying oil elite? Why would the Saudi's suddenly decide to help us all out and tell the truth (and hence, allievate any concern over shortages and thus reduce price per barrel and their own profit?).

Look, again, peak oil might not be right around the corner. But if that is the case, lets have real data from the skeptics.

Personal bottom lube....makes slippin through life a tad MORE tolareble.....

its all in the bottom lube....................and how slippery YOU are.

Don't have a clue what that has to do with peak oil, riv goddess, but I just got really turned on!

This forum is filled with hard statistics from real life petro geologists, most of whom agree that we're right around the peak. Again, if this is fear mongering, where are the real statistics to argue that the peak is much farther off? The real stats are not coming from the "oil elite". The oil elite is cooking the books to come up with things like 1.2 trillion barrels of reserves in Saudi Arabia (meanwhile, Gwahar is breathing its last breath trying to keep up with current demand, but yeah, 1.2 trillion barrels of reserves that no one has ever heard of before....).

And there is no sickening depopulation agenda. The overpopulation agenda is what is sickening. Depopulation is just the planets way of evening things out. Face it, we've reached just about peak everything--aquifers are being sucked dry, so we're at peak water. Fisheries are depleated, so we're at peak fishing. Soil is being eroded, so we're at peak soil. We're at peak various metals. We're at peak "insert resource here". The exact date of each event is subject to change, but, there is no doubt all resources are being depleted rapidly. It doesn't exactly matter if there is 30 years of oil or 80 years of oil if the Western U.S. states have sucked the Colorado River dry and depleted every last ounce of their groundwater does it? They're not going to make it. Oil is just likely the major event that will start the decline.

As far as surpressed alternatives--what are they? These "alternatives" have been discussed at length in other threads. Most of them are not surpressed, nor even practical. Oil is, pound for pound, the best energy source on the planet. The real crime is that we've wasted it on personal transportation for all these years. But there is no secret energy to power cars that is better than oil that the oil companies are sitting on. There is no secret source for fertilizers, plastics and medicines.

Also, I find the notion that oil companies have murdered to maintain their dominance of the energy sector absurd. Countries might murder for access to oil, but ExxonMobil, Shell, SaudiAramaco are not out there killing people and mobilizing armies. Not that these are innocent companies, or fighting for the common good. But, to wildly assert that they're murdering people is a bit of a stretch.

So let's go back to the beginning--first you assert Peak Oil is not true. Then you assert it is not true because the Saudi's magically discovered 1 trillion extra barrels of oil (how geologists missed a discovery that is 5 times larger than all discovered Saudi fields combined is a mystery). Then you assert that we can't trust oil companies (Saudi Arabia essentially being such an oil company). So which is it? Are the Saudi's lying? If so, we're back to the hard facts that there is probably somewhere in the vicinity of 700 billion to 1 trillion barrels of recoverable oil left in the world. Peak Oil this year or next by that estimate, and about 30 years before all easily extactable oil is extracted. Or, are the Saudi's telling the truth? Then why should we believe them as opposed to the other evil, murdering lying oil elite? Why would the Saudi's suddenly decide to help us all out and tell the truth (and hence, allievate any concern over shortages and thus reduce price per barrel and their own profit?).

Look, again, peak oil might not be right around the corner. But if that is the case, lets have real data from the skeptics.

You have to also realize who the geologists are working for - the big oil companies, by and large. And the oil elite will also cook the books to show LESS in reserve to justify higher prices. That was already done in the 1970's bogus 'energy crisis'. There was plenty in reserve - it was a deliberately created shortage at the gas pumps.
There is no overpopulation agenda - that implies there is a plan to get everyone to have as many babies as possible. I haven't heard of that since the pioneer days when the farmers wanted lots of help to clear the land! The de-population agenda I'm referring to is the Committee of 300 plan to actually kill off mass numbers of people worldwide - a 'culling of the herd' so to speak. The founder of The Club of Rome, Aurellio Peccei, termed the masses as "useless eaters" - that's you and I included!

Prince Philip, in his Foreward to If I Were an Animal; United Kingdom, Robin Clark Ltd., 1986.
I just wonder what it would be like to be reincarnated in an animal whose species had been so reduced in numbers than it was in danger of extinction. What would be its feelings toward the human species whose population explosion had denied it somewhere to exist.... I must confess that I am tempted to ask for reincarnation as a particularly deadly virus.

"The Conspirator's Hierarchy" by Dr. John Coleman (a former intelligence agent) outlined the intent and purpose of the Committee of 300 (which has a 150-year history) for bringing about the following conditions for all of Earth's citizens. Carefully read the following and notice how remarkably accurate it is beginning to reflect our current world situation.....

"A One World Government and one-unit monetary system, under permanent non-elected hereditary oligarchists who self-select from among their numbers in the form of a feudal system, as it was in the Middle Ages. In this One World entity, population will be limited by restrictions on the number of children per family, diseases, wars, famines, etc., until 1 billion people who are useful to the ruling class (in areas which will be strictly and clearly defined) remain as the total world population.

"There will be no middle class, only rulers and servants. All laws will be uniform under a legal system of world courts practicing the same unified code of laws, backed up by a One World Government police force and a One World unified military to enforce these laws in all former countries where no national boundaries shall exist. The system will be on the basis of a welfare state; those who are obedient and subservient to the One World Government will be rewarded with the means to live; while those who are rebellious will simply be starved to death or be declared outlaws, thus becoming a target for anyone who wishes to kill them. Privately owned firearms or weapons of any kind will be prohibited.
"Only one religion will be allowed and that will be in the form of a One World Government Church, which has been in existence since 1920. Satanism, Luciferianism and Witchcraft shall be recognized as legitimate One World Government curricula with no private or church schools. All Christian churches have already been subverted, and Christianity will be a thing of the past in the One World Government.

"In order to induce a state where there is no individual freedom or any concept of liberty surviving, there shall be no such thing as republicanism, sovereignty or rights residing with the people. National pride and racial identity shall be stamped out and be exterminated in the same manner of the One World Government experiment carried out by Poli Pot in Cambodia.

"Euthanasia for the terminally ill and the aged shall be compulsory. No cities shall be larger than a predetermined number, as described in the work of Kalgeri. Essential workers will be moved to other cities if the one they are in becomes overpopulated. Other non-essential workers will be chosen at random and sent to underpopulated cities to fill ‘quotas.’

“At least 4 billion ‘useless eaters’ shall be eliminated by the year 2050 by means of limited wars, organized epidemics of fatal rapid-acting diseases and starvation. Energy, food and water shall be kept at subsistence levels for the non-elite, starting with the White populations of Western Europe and North America and then spreading to other races. The population of Canada, Western Europe and the United States will be decimated more rapidly than on other continents, until the world's population reaches a manageable level of one billion, of which 500 million will consist of Chinese and Japanese races, selected because they are people who have been regimented for centuries and who are accustomed to obeying authority without question.

"From time to time, there shall be artificially-contrived food and water shortages and medical care to remind the masses that their very existence depends upon the goodwill of the Committee of 300.

"After the destruction of housing, auto, steel and heavy goods industries, there shall be limited housing, and industries of any kind allowed to remain shall be under the direction of NATO's Club of Rome, as shall all scientific and space exploration development, limited to the elite under the control of the Committee of 300. Space weapons of all former nations shall be destroyed, along with nuclear weapons.

"All essential and non-essential pharmaceutical products, doctors, dentists and health care workers will be registered in the central computer data bank, and no medicine or medical care will be prescribed without express permission of regional controllers responsible for each city, town and village.

"The United States will be flooded by peoples of alien cultures who will eventually overwhelm White America, people with no concept of what the United States Constitution stands for and who will, in consequence, do nothing to defend it, and in whose minds the concept of liberty and justice is so weak as to matter little. Food and shelter shall be the main concern.

"No central bank, save the Bank of International Settlement and the World Bank, shall be allowed to operate. Private banks will be outlawed. Remuneration for work performed shall be under a uniform predetermined scale throughout the One World Government. There shall be no wage disputes allowed, nor any diversion from the standard uniform scales of pay laid down by the One World Government. Those who break the law will be instantly executed.

"There shall be no cash or coinage in the hands of the non-elite. All transactions shall be carried out by means of a debit card which shall bear the identification number of the holder. Any person who, in any way, infringes upon the rules and regulations of the Committee of 300 shall have the use of his or her card suspended for varying times according to the nature and severity of the infringement.

"Such persons will find, when they go to make purchases, that their card is blacklisted during the transition phase, an individual shall be subject to the severest penalties to even mention one's racial origin.

"Each person shall be fully indoctrinated that he or she is a creature of the One World Government, with an identification number clearly marked on their person so as to be readily accessible. This identifying number shall be in the master file of the NATO computer in Brussels, Belgium, subject to instant retrieval by any agency of the One World Government at any time. The master files of the CIA, FBI, state and local police agencies, IRS, FEMA, and Social Security shall be vastly expanded and form the basis for personal records of all individuals in the United States.

"Marriage shall be outlawed, and there shall be no family life as we know it. Children will be removed from their parents at an early age and brought up by wards as state property. Such an experiment was carried out in East Germany under Erich Honnecker when children were take away from parents considered by the state to be disloyal citizens. Women will be degraded through the continued process of ‘women's liberation’ movements. Free sex shall be mandatory.

"Failure to comply at least once by the age of 20 shall be punishable by severe reprisals against her person. Self-abortion shall be taught and practiced after two children are born to a woman; such records shall be contained in the personal file of each woman in the One World Government's regional computers. If a woman becomes pregnant after she has previously given birth to two children, she shall be forcibly removed to an abortion clinic for such an abortion and sterilization procedures to be carried out.

"Pornography shall be promoted and be compulsory showing in every theater or cinema, including homosexual and lesbian pornography. The use of "recreational" drugs shall be compulsory, with each person allotted drug quotas which can be purchased at One World Government stores throughout the world. Mind control drugs will be expanded, and usage will become compulsory. Such mind control drugs shall be given in food and/or water supplies without the knowledge and/or consent of the people. Drug bars shall be set up, run by One World Government employees, where the slave-class shall be able to spend their free time. In this manner, the non-elite masses will be reduced to the level and behavior of controlled animals with no will of their own and easily regimented and controlled.

"The economic system shall be based upon the ruling oligarchical class allowing just enough foods and services to be produced to keep the mass slave labor camps functioning. All wealth shall be aggregated into the hands of the elite members of the Committee of 300. Each individual shall be indoctrinated to understand that he or she is totally dependent upon the State for survival. The world shall be ruled by Committee of 300 Executive Decrees which become instant law. Boris Yeltsin is using Committee of 300 decrees to impose the Committee's will upon Russia as a trial run. Courts of punishment and not courts of justice shall exist.

"Industry is to be totally destroyed, along with nuclear powered energy-systems. Only the Committee of 300 members and their elitists shall have the right to any of the Earth's resources. Agriculture shall be solely in the hands of the Committee of 300, with food production strictly controlled. As these measures begin to take effect, large populations in the cities shall be forcibly removed to remote areas, they will not be able to obtain services of any kind. Attempts to trade "old" coins, that is to say, silver coins of previous and now defunct nations, shall be treated as a capital crime subject to the death penalty. All such coinage shall be required to be surrendered within a given time, along with guns, rifles, explosives and automobiles. Only the elite and One World Government high-ranking functionaries will be allowed private transport, weapons, coinage and automobiles.

"If the offense is a serious one, the card will be seized at the checking point where it is presented. Thereafter, that person shall not be able to obtain food, water, shelter and employment, medical services, and shall be officially listed as an outlaw. Large bands of outlaws will thus be created, and they will live in regions that best afford subsistence, subject to being hunted down and shot on sight. Persons assisting outlaws in any way whatsoever, shall likewise be shot. Outlaws who fail to surrender to the police or military after a declared period of time shall have a former family member selected at random to serve prison terms in their stead.

"Rival factions and groups, such as Arabs and Jews and African tribes, shall have differences magnified and allowed to wage wars of extermination against each other under the eyes of NATO and U.N. observers. The same tactics will be used in Central and South America. These wars of attrition shall take place BEFORE the take-over of the One World Government, and shall be engineered on every continent where large groups of people with ethnic and religious differences live, such as the Sikhs, Moslem Pakistanis and the Hindu Indians. Ethnic and religious differences shall be magnified and exacerbated, and violent conflict as a means of "settling" their differences shall be encouraged and fostered.

"All information services and print media shall be under the control of the One World Government. Regular brainwashing control measures shall be passed off as "entertainment", in the manner in which it was practiced and became a fine art in the United States. Youths removed from "disloyal parents" shall receive special education designed to brutalize them. Youth of both sexes shall receive training to qualify as prison guards for the One World labor camp system."

Originally posted by turbonium

Personal bottom lube....makes slippin through life a tad MORE tolareble.....

its all in the bottom lube....................and how slippery YOU are.

Don't have a clue what that has to do with peak oil, riv goddess, but I just got really turned on!

Sorry....I was speaking metephoricly.
Using the LUBE analogy and BOTTOM to hint at what 'bottoms' mankind as a whole has acted toward the planet to make a fast buck, and drive a fast car. Also refering to the 'bottom' of the barrell so to say................and LUBE? well sir I was speaking of oil itself......
It was in no way intended as a turn on, it was intended to be ponderd.

In pondering one may wonder WHAT slippery things they may be personally involved in that are just adding to the currant situation instead of being pro active. What one can do personally to improve things MIGHT be triggerd by such analagy, and hence my humble addition. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused you..........

Turbonium the geologists talking about peak oil are not in the oil industry anymore. So you cannot cite their allegiance to corporations as the driving impetus of their claims. Likewise, if you are going to cite a former intelligence agent as proof of a campaign of depopulation, then how can you discredit petro geologists? Intelligence agents are in the business of lying. You can't have your cake and eat it. If former industry geologists are liars, so are former intelligence agents. But whatever, you're mixing up apples and oranges here.

Major reserves are a matter of scientific record--yes, there is fudging by petro companies and countries of total reserves, but the major fields are verified and we can make a good estimate based on unbiased science of total reserves. Including current rates of new discovery (pretty low, as well as low investment in discovery because there's not much left to be found), most reasonable people would agree that there is somewhere in the vicinity of 1 trillion recoverable barrels left barring any miraculous discovery (like the Saudi's sudden discovery of 1 trillion barrels you cite). 30 years left at current consumption rates. End of story. Don't give me that this is crap because it is industry people stating it. If it is crap, again, I challenge you to find me a neutral geologist who claims otherwise and has the data (in peer reviewed journals) to prove it. And not some abiotic oil nut case. Solid geology demonstrating that there are trillions of barrels of light crude left to be discovered.

Bush has mentioned hydrogen fuel cells, there is money going into them, and major companies are pushing them now. There is no hydrogen conspiracy. But how exactly are you going to get all that hydrogen? Getting hydrogen is an energy intensive process. You're going to need to build more fission reactors to crack all that water. And then there goes your uranium supply. The fuel cells also require platinum, of which there is not sufficient supply on Earth to give even the US alone a fleet of hydrogen fuel cell powered cars. Uranium is finite. Platinum is finite. So all you're doing is moving on from one non-renewable resource to two others when all you need to do is get a damn bike and get over your attachment to having a car.

Ok, onto to population. There is most certainly an overpopulation agenda supported by the Catholic Church and by the various Christian factions in the US. An anti-birth control, anti-abortion, anti-sex ed campaign is an overpopulation campaign. And there doesn't need to be a depopulation campaign. For all the reasons I cited, the population is going to crash--it doesn't need any help from an evil cabal. There is not sufficient fresh water for one. Ancient aquifers are not refiling fast enough. Many cities are built in places they ought not be. So we don't have enough fresh water. Top soil is being lost at alarming rates. We're losing arable land to desertification, to urbanization, to top soil loss. To continue producing sufficient amounts of food on less and less arable land with poorer and poorer soils is going to require more and more petro fertilizers. Logic dictates that this is not a sustainable process. There is no conspiracy--fertile land is lost through greed and stupidity, not because someone is trying to depopulate the world. There are any number of reasons why the present number of people is unsustainable. Not enough energy, not enough water, not enough food, not enough metals, not enough wood, too many diseases. These are not things of conspiracy--they are the facts of 6+ billion energy intensive, consumption hungry humans competing for a limited pool of resources.

The world cannot support 6+ billion. There is no way--not without having access to raw materials from other planets. And that option is not likely to ever be open to us, especially at the rate we're going. With a shift to smarter technology, less consumption per capita, wise use of remaining resources, and some luck, maybe we can sustain 2-3 billion people. We don't need a "NWO" to kill us off--this has been a dieoff two centuries or so in the making. We overexploited the planet, overshot carrying capacity and our population will come crashing back down. It is unfortunate, it will be tragic, hopefully it can happen mostly naturally (i.e. growth rate is limited by people having less kids do to cost of living/available resources, not because of famine), but it is going to happen.

Have you even looked at the methods available to produce hydrogen? They do NOT require precious metals to produce them. Look at Teledyne H2 generators for example, and many others - that is a bogus argument you've put forward. A Shell Hydrogen study estimates the cost to be about $19 billion for the delivery of hydrogen to 1/4 of the fuel stations in the United States.
The war in Iraq has already cost more than TEN TIMES that amount!! From news reports: With approval of the latest spending bill, taxpayers will have been forced to cough up more than $300 billion for the war to date – above and beyond the annual $400 billion Pentagon budget – and tens of billions for a bungled reconstruction. Even if the U.S. can lower its troop commitment to 40,000 troops in Iraq by 2010, as some Pentagon strategists optimistically anticipate, the war could still end up costing U.S. taxpayers up to $646 billion by 2015,If insurgency, corruption and incompetence continue to plague the U.S. occupation as they have steadily for the last two years, however, the number could surge to $1 trillion dollars or more.
Do you not see how ridiculous the peak oil theory is in the bigger picture? It should be a NON-ISSUE but Bush and the oil gluttons have NO INTENTION of letting that happen. By pretending oil is the only game in town, you are foolishly playing along with them, just like they want. Look outside the box and see how we are being manipulated into a bogus issue!!

As for de-population, you need look no further than the two world wars and great depression, and russian revolution, funded by the Federal Reserve and Bank of England, and Rothschilds for a way to make billions AND wipe out tens of millions of people in the process!! Not to mention man made viruses like aids intentionally released into populations through immunization programs! These are PLANNED methods of mass murder - not theory. As for arable land for food production, thanks to these wars and depressions, they have effectively cut down on the food production. But again, if the billions wasted on destructive wars was even fractionally put into land management, there is EASILY enough food to sustain many times the current population. But like I said, that is NOT the plan they want to follow, and they seem to have convinced you it isn't an option, either.

[edit on 9-5-2005 by turbonium]

The production of hydrogen does not require platinum. It is the fuel cells themselves. That is, if you are going to use the hydrogen for any sort of work you're going to need platinum. If not platinum, you'll need some metal which is probably soon to be in short supply. So you're back at square one. Cars have to go--I fail to see why people want to argue otherwise. You neglected to address any of my other points--namely that all resources are being depleted. Again, Shell can crank out all the hydrogen it wants. It makes little difference because Shell cannot crank out topsoil. Shell cannot refill aquaifers. In any event, it takes energy to make hydrogen. You haven't addressed that. Sure, we can get hydrogen. Sure, you have a magical supply of platinum for all the fuel cells. You still need energy to make hydrogen. Where are you going to get it from?

You lost all crediability with that HIV statement. Governments did not make HIV. The virus emerged into human populations before we had the technology to engineer a virus. Sure, going around with live vaccines and poking millions of people with needles under less than sterile conditions is an ideal situation to get recombinant viruses and spread emerging ones. I don't doubt that something stupid that governments or health organizations did helped spread HIV or possibly even facilitated some viral recombination that made it more virulent. But no one made it. It is a pretty crappy means of population control actually. Why would they not just re-release smallpox and kill a billion people all at once?

The problem with your depopulation theory is that world population has been exploding even as this evil cabal has been trying to kill us all. If they are, they're doing a poor job of it. Population is still increasing. Wars haven't had any affect on growth. Disease has had no affect on it. The world population is going to double again in the next half a century at present rates (I think faster than this, but I'll estimate conservatively). No one is trying to kill people as part of a master plan. The data indicates otherwise.

One more thing....we have not lost agricultural land to war. Agricultural land has been lost due to poor development (e.g. suburbs instead of farms) and due to poor management of the soil. Dead bodies make good fertilizer, so I'm guessing war probably helps the soil. Gruesome, but true.

Sure, we were responsible for extensive destruction of land in Vietnam through carpet bombing and Agent Orange application. Soil in the US has been lost to us being dumb, not because of war. Soil is being lost in Africa mostly because people are being dumb. Soil is being lost in China because they are developing without conservation in mind. So most recent topsoil loss has had nothing to do with war.

I don't disagree that war is a terrible waste of resources. But we'd be screwed even if we weren't fighting through the sheer stupidity of our economic system and our greed.

It is the fuel cells themselves. That is, if you are going to use the hydrogen for any sort of work you're going to need platinum. If not platinum, you'll need some metal which is probably soon to be in short supply.

No, they don't. Where did you get that idea from? They are usually ceramic or polymer based. And the Ballard polymer pem cells are fully recyclable. There is no resource shortage whatsoever for implementing this technology, nor is any anticipated at any time. Do you think they haven't done any research on this? You're implying that they are stupid or blind because they don't know it yet, but they are going to run out of the resources they need!! I guess you better warn Daimler Chrysler and all those shareholders!!

Originally posted by Britman
But according to the Russian research the oil fields we have now are filling up again. So all you have to do is use them in a crop rotation system. True we have to learn not to use so much.
I have yet to find any evidance that oganic matter can even produce oil. Has anyone ever tried, in a lab, to recreate the effects they claim produces oil using some organic matter?

Law of conservation of energy:
Energy cannot be created or destroyed

You can't get energy from nowhere. The energy in that "renewable" oil also needs to come from somewhere. Direct solar power is renewable because the sun is always burning (of course that won't be so once it explodes). Indirect solar, such as hydro power and wind power, are also renewable because the sun is always burning.

So where's the energy from the "renewable" oil coming from? Other than the sun, nothing is inputting significant amounts of energy to the Earth. How would solar energy generate oil? And even if there's some other form of energy mysteriously appearing out of nowhere underground, how would such energy provide mechanism for oil generation?

[edit on 10-5-2005 by Taishyou]