The Iraqi people have spoken: they want the occupation OUT!

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
They didn't ask for your crimes and your sanctions, that resulted in the death of 1.5 million iraqies by 1995.

Sanctions put by the UN, not only agreed by the US....and it was a democratic president who decided to agree with the UN and keep those sanctions in place which killed 1 million people....

You have a really warped view of history Muaddib.
The sanctions were placed on Iraq by the US at first and then it was brought before the UN and it was approved. The US did not agree with the UN to keep the sanctions, the UN members bowed to US pressure after their attempts to remove the sanctions failed.

www.eia.doe.gov...

August 2 Iraq invades Kuwait. The U.S. government embargoes oil imports from Iraq, freezes Iraqi and Kuwaiti assets in the United States, and starts moving naval reinforcements towards the Persian Gulf. The U.N. Security Council unanimously approves Resolution 660 condemning the Iraqi invasion and calling for an immediate and unconditional withdrawal.

August 5 President Bush says that Iraq's invasion of Kuwait "will not stand" and proposes a sweeping economic blockade and sanctions against Iraq.

August 6 The U.N. Security Council unanimously approves Resolution 661 imposing a mandatory and complete embargo of all investment and trade, including oil, with Iraq and occupied Kuwait. This results in a reduction of over 4 million bbl/d in oil supplies to world markets (over the next several months, Saudi Arabia increases its production to make up the loss). President Bush orders the deployment of U.S. armed forces to defend Saudi Arabia in an operation named "Operation Desert Shield."

[edit on 8-5-2005 by AceOfBase]

"BTW, the gulf war did not cause the worse deformities in children in history...once again exagerating and lying trying to make your point.. "

Exagerating. HAVE YOU SEEN THESE DEFORMATIES?

[Edit -
4.)You will not use profanity in our forums, and will neither post with language or content that is obscene, sexually oriented, or sexually suggestive nor link to sites that contain such content. Images of or links to gratuitous gore and/or mutilation are strictly forbidden. This applies to material posted to collaborative fiction and member short story forums. You will also not select usernames that contain profanity.

www.abovetopsecret.com... - Jak]


It was your fault Saddam got into power, YOU SUPPORTED HIM WHEN HE WAS AT HIS WORST! the hypocracy.

[edit on 9/5/05 by JAK]

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
..............
It was your fault Saddam got into power, YOU SUPPORTED HIM WHEN HE WAS AT HIS WORST! the hypocracy.

The president of Iraq al-bakr was who gave Saddam power....

"For the same reason that the so called resistance strap bombs on friends and even children and sent them to kill coalition forces...."

Strapping bombs on to FRIENDS and CHILDERN? Care to back up those wild accusations?

As for the article
hrw.org...
I told you, the resistance has nothing to do with your CIA stooges "al Qaeda". We know all about your false flag operations.

"The people voted for that government.."
As i said, only 4 million, out of 25 million iraqies, voted for that "government", the other 4, where from outside of iraq, they where not even iraqi citizens, but claimed to be iraqi from decendants, they where from the US, Israel, europe.

The Iraqies hate your puppet regime. just like they hated your puppet regime of Saddam. You will see, when you are kicked out by the Iraqi people, your pro-US capitalist regime is gonig to end up in the trash can of history. Just like the vicci french.

Originally posted by AceOfBase

You have a really warped view of history Muaddib.
The sanctions were placed on Iraq by the US at first and then it was brought before the UN and it was approved. The US did not agree with the UN to keep the sanctions, the UN members bowed to US pressure after their attempts to remove the sanctions failed.

Aceofbase....you know exactly what i mean because you and I have both had this conversation before.....

The first president Bush presented these sanctions at the end of his office, but the sanctions were agreed upon by president Clinton and the UN when reports were coming in that there were people dying....

BTW, perhaps you should ask yourself exactly why these people were dying when in fact the sanctions were put in place with the agreement that Iraq/Saddam could buy food, medicine and anything else needed for the people of Iraq with oil....this program was called Oil for Food program....

We all now know why this didn't work... or do we have to go through all the evidence once again Ace?.....


[edit on 8-5-2005 by Muaddib]

It's all about the oil for you isn't it.

Only a trickle , a trickle of food and medicne was going into iraq.

You wouldn't even allow them the propper installations to clean their water supply!

"The president of Iraq al-bakr was who gave Saddam power...."

Did you not read what ace of base wrote? “Saddam key in early CIA plot “ .And you can’t deny that the US was his Ally, when he was at his most oppressive. You armed him against Iran, you told him it was a ok by you for him to attack Kuwait, bait and catch.

I know all about the history of "democracy" in the US. You've supported Dictatorships all over the world. And you still do. Infact, you helped assasinte the democratically ellected Allende of Chille, and helped to install one of the most despotic rulers, Pinochet. And only 2 years ago, condoleza rice was supporting a coup attempt against the democratically ellected Chavez, the coup failed, when the venezuelan people demanded the return of their president.

You barely have democracy in your own country, your going to export it? no one asked you to impinge your opinions an others. so like i said. take your pseudo-democracy and go home. The Iraqies don't want your "help". Why don't you go help yourself first.

Originally posted by Syrian Sister

Strapping bombs on to FRIENDS and CHILDERN? Care to back up those wild accusations?
........................

I beg your pardon...you are talking about wild accussations?....

Soldiers from the 3rd Infantry Division’s Task Force Baghdad pulled the driver of an explosives-laden car to safety Sunday after the bomb failed to detonate properly and instead burst into flames.

It happened near a barrier at the entrance to a military base in eastern Baghdad.

Military officials said a preliminary investigation indicated that the driver was forced to carry out the mission by insurgents who had kidnapped his family.

“This is another case where Abu Musab al-Zarqawi has to extort men to carry out his indiscriminate slaughtering. He can’t recruit volunteers; he is resorting to forcing Iraqi civilians to carry out these mission by threatening harm to kidnapped family members,” said Col. Joe DiSalvo, Commander, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 3rd Infantry Division.

Excerpted from.
www.kwtx.com...

Here is some more news for your perusal....

Minister: Suicide bomber a handicapped child
Iraq police say attacker seemed to have Down SyndromeThe Associated Press
Updated: 3:53 p.m. ET Jan. 31, 2005

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraq’s interior minister said Monday that insurgents used a handicapped child as one of the suicide bombers who launched attacks on election day.

Falah al-Naqib told reporters in Baghdad that 38 attacks were carried out on polling stations in Iraq on Sunday and that one of the suicide bombings was carried out by a disabled child.

“A handicapped child was used to carry out a suicide attack on a polling site,” al-Naqib said. “This is an indication of what horrific actions they are carrying out.”

Excerpted from.
www.msnbc.msn.com...

These are the same tactics being used by Palestinian terrorists...i mean insurgents....

Muaddib. I DARE YOU.


www.drs.org.au...

"In addition, the rates of major congenital anomalies, such as anencephaly and hydrocephaly, and of childhood leukaemia have risen sharply. This is thought to be due to depleted uranium weapons which were used against Iraq in 1991 (and are almost certainly being used now against Serbia).

The poor state of sewerage and water treatment works, partly a result of the 1991 bombing, is a major public health concern. Spare parts, plumbing equipment and chemicals needed for purification are all classified as "dual-use" under the sanctions (able to be used by the civilian or military sectors) and are delayed or prohibited by the Security Council Sanctions Committee. The refusal to allow chlorine to disinfect water supplies is, at best, contrary to basic principles of preventive medicine, and at worst, negligent to the point of being criminal.

Distribution of food and medicines is also obstructed by the Sanctions Committee. Forklifts, trucks, truck tyres and mechanical spare parts are "dual-use" and subject to lengthy delays. In addition, the money to buy these things and to pay the workers is lacking. "

so you got the idea from palestine. huh. Nice false flag.

Who strapped the bomb to the child, the resistance, or the enemy of the iraqi people, america and co. You try and you try to defame the resistance, but just wait till i get home and show you some nice articles.

I have a video testimony, from an iraqi doctor, who was ushering a little girl from an ambulance into hostpital, he said the USan soldiers game her something, she thought it was a gift, it exploded. Now this is video evidence, not some nameless child that the puppt regime invented. Soon, you will have it.

i respect you.

Please don't be intimidated by his lies.

Your concern for iraq's children is touching.

Tell me, what did you think of the photographs, the deformaties that you claim i exagerated?

The very children of the resistance. These are the children who suffered beneath your sanctions.

www.commondreams.org.../views01/0815-03.htm

"As writer Thomas J. Nagy notes in his well-documented article, "The Secret Behind the Sanctions: How the U.S. Intentionally Destroyed Iraq's Water Supply," the evidence proves beyond a doubt that "the United States knew the cost that civilian Iraqis, mostly children, would pay, and it went ahead anyway."

Nagy, who teaches at the School of Business and Public Management at George Washington University, relies on documents obtained from the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency to paint a chilling picture of military planners determined to use sanctions to spread disease and death among civilians.

One document, dated Jan. 22, 1991, reads, "Iraq depends on importing specialized equipment and some chemicals to purify its water supply. ... Failing to secure supplies will result in a shortage of pure drinking water for much of the population. This could lead to increased incidences, if not epidemics, of disease."


The very children, who throw the stones at your tanks today.

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
It's all about the oil for you isn't it.

Only a trickle , a trickle of food and medicne was going into iraq.

For me?...what the heck do you know about me?....nothing...that's what you know about me....

If only "a trickle of food and medicine" was going to Iraq it is because Saddam was using this program to get richer and get banned technologies and wmd, yes wmd, from countries such as Russia, France, Germany and China....

BTW, in the sanctions it was agreed, because of Kofi Annan, that Saddam could choose any vendors and providers to whom to sell the oil..... not only that, but by order of the UN, not the US, any deals that Saddam did were confidential........we now know that he wasn't buying food and medicine as it was supposed to happen.....and the countries who were against the war are exactly those who were deeply involved in the scandal of OFF....

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
You wouldn't even allow them the propper installations to clean their water supply!

Care to support this with evidence?....

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
Did you not read what ace of base wrote? “Saddam key in early CIA plot “.

Yes...i also red your biased opinion that the insurgents are good and the coalition is evil... not everything found on the internet is true...

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
And you can’t deny that the US was his Ally, when he was at his most oppressive. You armed him against Iran, you told him it was a ok by you for him to attack Kuwait, bait and catch.

Oh yes, there have been parts in our history that we shouldn't be proud of, but does that mean that we have to continue supporting regimes which became oppressive?...

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
I know all about the history of "democracy" in the US. You've supported Dictatorships all over the world. And you still do. Infact, you helped assasinte the democratically ellected Allende of Chille, and helped to install one of the most despotic rulers, Pinochet.

I kind of find it extremely ironic that someone from Syria is talking about "supporting dictatorships"....... yet you don't mention anything your government has done against your own people...

The US have sided in the past with people to fight against communism, many times these peope became dictators, but in many cases it was their choice to do so.

How many of the so called "revolutionaries" became the worse dictators and assassins in the history of the world?....a lot of them... including the insurgents that are fighting in Iraq and are not only Iraqis, but many are Syrians, iranians, Palestinians, etc...

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
And only 2 years ago, condoleza rice was supporting a coup attempt against the democratically ellected Chavez, the coup failed, when the venezuelan people demanded the return of their president.

You mean the same Venezuelans who went to the streets, almost 2 million Venezuelans protesting agaisnt Chavez?... and the innumerable protests done by many Venezuelans from 100,000 to almost 2 million of them protesting against Chavez?....

How many people were the chavistas able to summon?....

Have almost 2 million Iraqis taken to the streets to protest the coalition presence?....

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
You barely have democracy in your own country, your going to export it? no one asked you to impinge your opinions an others.

We barely have democracy?.... really?....were you ever able to speak up agaisnt the Syrian government and post the murdering tactics they have done agaisnt the oppossition and your people?.... Were the Iraqis ever able to post anything against Saddam like it happens in the US when some US citizens wan't to protest against the administration, whichever administration is in power?...

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
so like i said. take your pseudo-democracy and go home.
The Iraqies don't want your "help". Why don't you go help yourself first.

You said it yourself...you are a Syrian. You are telling that the US is noone to try to help the Iraqis....you are not Iraqi, yet you seem to think you know what's best for Iraqis...

[edit on 9-5-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
The very children of the resistance. These are the children who suffered beneath your sanctions.

www.commondreams.org.../views01/0815-03.htm

Looking at the origin of this article we find that it comes from the following site.



Can you guess what is the meaning of that star in a circle in that image?....

ghostsoldier is very familiar with what that star means... he knows exactly what it means...

This is nothing more than propaganda for one reason only....

BTW, that star has never brought anything good to the people, I know because i come from a country where that star and it's meaning was used by oppressive sobs...


[edit on 9-5-2005 by Muaddib]

"For me?...what the heck do you know about me?"

When i said "you" i meant the US empire, which you support.

If only "a trickle of food and medicine" was going to Iraq it is because Saddam was using this program to get richer and get banned technologies and wmd"

Sure Saddam was using the program to get richer, but you kept it going anyway,knowing all along that it wasn't hurting saddam but was hurting the Iraqi people. (Though even if he wasn't using it to get rich, what you where allowing into iraq was not enough to sustain iraq). You put Saddam into power for that reason, you wanted to starve the people of iraq, you wanted to weaken them. So you can attack and take the rest of their oil. Whell they have shown you, how strong they are!

Yes, we all saw those WMD's, indeed. HAH! If the US ever though for a momment that Iraq could have WMD's they would never attack. We know what cowards you are, look at north korea. You won't attack them because they DO have WMD's and they openly threaten you with them if you dare try anythign funny.

You maid a pretty penny of the food and oil program. You got that oil, and sold it for far more, than what you kicked down at iraq for it.


I said: You won't even allow them to clean their water

You said "Care to support this with evidence?...."

I am way ahead of you, and i already have.

You wrote:
"Yes... not everything found on the internet is true... "

Yes, i agree, but we can always go out and check the information for ourselves can't we, this is all we ask you to do.


"Oh yes, there have been parts in our history that we shouldn't be proud of, but does that mean that we have to continue supporting regimes which became oppressive?..."

You still do support regimes that ARE oppressive, and i noticed your white washing words, "regimes that BECOME oppresive". You supported him when he was oppresive, not before he "became" oppresive. Why this dictator, why here , why now, why not the dictators in saudia arabia or UAE, or egypt? Perhaps because the saudi regime is a dictatorship that is although opressive, capitailst and pro-US.

As for what you say about Venezuela, the venezuelan people have already spoken, when they marched up to the embacy and demanded their president back. And the international communitie all ready recognises his election was legitimate, you can cry all you want that he doesn't support US interests like the rest of your puppet nations. he supports venezuela's interests, and he's certainly more democratic than you.


"You said it yourself...you are a Syrian. You are telling that the US is noone to try to help the Iraqis....you are not Iraqi, yet you seem to think you know what's best for Iraqis... "

I'm more Iraqi than you my dear, as i said, i have iraqies in my family, and Iraqies ARE my family. You can say you think you know what is best for iraqies, and you can say i think i know what is best for iraqies. But the fact of the matter is, you are the ones who are pushing your will "of what you think is best" onto them. you are the one forcing them at gun point.

I can only advice Iraqies, and the choices they make are their choices, the mistakes they make are their mistakes. If they where not fighting you so hard, i would be silent. But the fact of the matter is, they are pushing you out with all their might. They don't like you nor your warped ideas about freedom and democracy. They want real freedom. They want to choose leaders without your meddling. Enough is enough, you've been medling since saddam.

What they want, i am going to cheer them and support them till my last breath.

[edit on 9-5-2005 by Syrian Sister]

Muaddib is right.

Beware of the oppressive nature of countries using the dreaded star in the circle.

AND take a refresher course in symbology.

Originally posted by Syrian Sister

"For me?...what the heck do you know about me?"

When i said "you" i meant the US empire, which you support.

I prefer supporting the US rather than the insurgents...

And since you seem to think that the US is evil, and you are saying that I am part of it, you think I am evil... My guess is then that you are an insurgent too....

BTW, it was the insurgents themselves who gave the bombs to these children...so who is using these children and friends/families to strap bombs on themselves or in cars and commit suicide killing coalition forces are the insurgents...

BTW, please learn how to use quotes.

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
Sure Saddam was using the program to get richer, but you kept it going anyway,knowing all along that it wasn't hurting saddam but was hurting the Iraqi people. (Though even if he wasn't using it to get rich, what you where allowing into iraq was not enough to sustain iraq).

We?..... Presidnet Clinton agreed with the UN to keep the sanctions, but it was mainly because of the actions of France, Russia, Germany, China, who were the ones buying the oil from Iraq, or most of it, with military technology, rockets, night vision goggles, and other military equipment, some of which was banned, intstead of buying food and other necessities....

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
You put Saddam into power for that reason, you wanted to starve the people of iraq, you wanted to weaken them. So you can attack and take the rest of their oil.

Again with your messed up idea that we put Saddam in power?....

Here is a bit on the history of what happened and why Saddam came to power in Iraq...

Aref's elder brother, Abdul Rahman Aref, an alcoholic with no charisma and no talent for government assumed power. Not for long though, because in 1968 he was overthrown by Ahmed Hassan Al-Bakr, Khairallah Talfah's cousin. Al-Bakr, now president, prime minister and commander-in-chief of the army appointed his nephew, Saddam Hussein, as vice-president of the Revolutionary Command Council. By 1979 the future dictator was Al-Bakr's deputy, second in command. He decided he was ready to replace Al-Bakr, then sixty-seven years old. So, in July 1979 Saddam encourage him to retire. Al-Bakr was wise enough not to resist Saddam's suggestion. Now, Saddam Hussein was the top man in Iraq.

Excerpted from.
www.giles.34sp.com...

If we were to believe every claim made that the CIA is involved in everything, I am certain we would find someone who would blame the big bang on the CIA also.....

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
Whell they have shown you, how strong they are!

Yep, let's see how strong the Iraqi people are and against whom they have shown violence...and at the same time let's see how much do the real Iraqi civilians love the insurgency...

Iraqi Civilians Fight Back Against Insurgents

By ROBERT F. WORTH; LAYLA ISITFAN CONTRIBUTED REPORTING FOR THIS ARTICLE. (NYT) 1059 words
Late Edition - Final , Section A , Page 6 , Column 4

ABSTRACT - Baghdad carpenter and his young relatives, in rare response by ordinary Iraqis to insurgents who terrorize Iraq, open fire on troop of masked gunmen approaching his shop; three insurgents are killed and rest flee after police arrive; two relatives and bystander are wounded; battle is latest sign that Iraqis may be willing to start standing up against insurgents; has sectarian overtones; Dhia is Shiite and insurgents are largely Sunnis and have aimed dozens of attacks at Shiite figures and rites; conflict has grown sharper in last year, with Shiites dominating Iraq's new police force and army; insurgents continue efforts with attacks in Mosul and Anbar Province

Excerpted from.
query.nytimes.com...:search

Yep... I can see how much they love the insurgency....


Oh yes, the real iraqi people have shown how strong they are alright...

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
Yes, we all saw those WMD's, indeed. HAH! If the US ever though for a momment that Iraq could have WMD's they would never attack. We know what cowards you are, look at north korea. You won't attack them because they DO have WMD's and they openly threaten you with them if you dare try anythign funny.

Cowards huh?...you mean as in the insurgents hiding inside mosques and hospitals, and attacking the coalition from there?..... Do you mean the insurgents capturing Iraqi civilians that don't want to fight agaisnt the US and using them to strap bombs in their bodies?... Or how about the insurgents killing Iraqi civilians who they, and you, say the terrorists are trying to protect?.... Do you mean that kind of cowards?....

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
You maid a pretty penny of the food and oil program. You got that oil, and sold it for far more, than what you kicked down at iraq for it.

We?....actually it was Russia, China, France and Germany who were buying all that oil, or most of it for military technology...

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
I said: You won't even allow them to clean their water

You said "Care to support this with evidence?...."

I am way ahead of you, and i already have.

And i showed that that evidence came from a communist site, which now they are calling themselves "progressive"......among some other names...

Originally posted by Syrian Sister

You still do support regimes that ARE oppressive, and i noticed your white washing words, "regimes that BECOME oppresive".

White whashing words?.... i think you don't understand the definition of the word regime.

The word "regime" (occasionally spelled "régime", particularly in older texts) refers to any system of control, or more specifically a system of government. It is frequently used to describe a government headed by a specific person ("the Saddam regime", "the Bush regime", or "the Salazar regime") or based on a particular ideology ("a communist" regime", "a fascist regime", or "a military regime"). In theory, the word "regime" need not imply anything about the type of government described, and most political scientists use it as a neutral term. Some people, however, use the term only for governments which they believe to be repressive or undemocratic, and as such, some see the word as conveying a sense of moral disapproval and political opposition.

Excerpted from.
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
You supported him when he was oppresive, not before he "became" oppresive. Why this dictator, why here , why now, why not the dictators in saudia arabia or UAE, or egypt? Perhaps because the saudi regime is a dictatorship that is although opressive, capitailst and pro-US.

Because those dictators as you call them, seem a bit more willing than Saddam was in being more pro-democratic, and at least in part they are not working on trying to attack the US, like Saddam was.

Originally posted by Syrian Sister

As for what you say about Venezuela, the venezuelan people have already spoken, when they marched up to the embacy and demanded their president back. And the international communitie all ready recognises his election was legitimate, you can cry all you want that he doesn't support US interests like the rest of your puppet nations. he supports venezuela's interests, and he's certainly more democratic than you.

No, actually the venezuelan people have been shoot at, killed and injured as they have tried to protest against Chavez.

BTW, I am not crying for anything, althou i really fear for the people of a country that sees a dictator such as castro as an image that the country of Venezuela must follow.

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
I'm more Iraqi than you my dear, as i said, i have iraqies in my family, and Iraqies ARE my family. You can say you think you know what is best for iraqies, and you can say i think i know what is best for iraqies. But the fact of the matter is, you are the ones who are pushing your will "of what you think is best" onto them. you are the one forcing them at gun point.

That i know of Iaqis don't see themselves as Syrians...and why so many Syrians, who are part of the insurgency are killing Iraqi citizens if you all have only love for the RIaqis?....

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
I can only advice Iraqies, and the choices they make are their choices, the mistakes they make are their mistakes. If they where not fighting you so hard, i would be silent. But the fact of the matter is, they are pushing you out with all their might. They don't like you nor your warped ideas about freedom and democracy. They want real freedom. They want to choose leaders without your meddling. Enough is enough, you've been medling since saddam.

What they want, i am going to cheer them and support them till my last breath.

yeah, i already showed who the real iraqis are fighting against...the insurgents....

And BTW, why in the world are your so beloved terrorists, i mean insurgents assessinating iraqi police officers when they are unarmed?.... i can see who the real cowards are.... and it is the insurgents...

not up to the challange?

here is another source for you don't worry, it doesn't have the star which you dread.

www.iraqwaterproject.org...

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Muaddib is right.

Beware of the oppressive nature of countries using the dreaded star in the circle.

AND take a refresher course in symbology.

You know, or should know there is a difference between the shield of captain America, which portrays the American flag and the Communist star.

Not up for the challenge?...

Let me put it in here for your perusal again, as to how much do the Iraqis like your insurgents...

Iraqi Civilians Fight Back Against Insurgents

By ROBERT F. WORTH; LAYLA ISITFAN CONTRIBUTED REPORTING FOR THIS ARTICLE. (NYT) 1059 words
Late Edition - Final , Section A , Page 6 , Column 4

ABSTRACT - Baghdad carpenter and his young relatives, in rare response by ordinary Iraqis to insurgents who terrorize Iraq, open fire on troop of masked gunmen approaching his shop; three insurgents are killed and rest flee after police arrive; two relatives and bystander are wounded; battle is latest sign that Iraqis may be willing to start standing up against insurgents; has sectarian overtones; Dhia is Shiite and insurgents are largely Sunnis and have aimed dozens of attacks at Shiite figures and rites; conflict has grown sharper in last year, with Shiites dominating Iraq's new police force and army; insurgents continue efforts with attacks in Mosul and Anbar Province

Excerpted from above link.


Yep, the Iraqis love the insurgents to die....