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The Mormon Conspiracy to convert the world into Mormons

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posted on May, 19 2005 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by DragonsDemesne

: Originally posted by saint4God
Do Mormons believe the New Testament is the word of God?



: Originally posted by Bleys
So far as it has been correctly translated - see #8 of the articles of faith. The belief was that the various translations, politics and what have you, made the words unreliable but not its intent. Since the BoM was given directly to one man - it is considered perfect. My question is - what if that one man was a nutjob?


Yeah, pretty much. I can't give you an exact estimate of the number of changes Joseph Smith made to the Bible, but compared to the volume of the test, it's a very small percentage, I would say less than 1%, since most pages don't have any changes. The changes range from the virtually irrelevant (like Matthew 28, where he changes 1 angel to 2 angels), to extremely significant (like Genesis 14, where he adds 15 verses about Melchizedek and the Priesthood) Most of the changes are 3 words or less in a single place, and usually don't change the meaning that much.


Hm, interesting. You've outlined how to achieve salvation for heaven/eternal life in answering my first question. In this one you're saying the meaning of changes don't change much from my Bible to yours. My question then becomes, if Mormons believe John 3:16 to be the word of God through Jesus, why haven't you listed: Believing in his one and only son, "that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"? Moreso, why all the additional requirements?

and

Revelation 22:18 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from him his share the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." So, why was the Bible changed again?




posted on May, 19 2005 @ 11:30 AM
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Actually, Petey, it wasn't the Indians who were killed in the Mountain Meadows massacre, it was a band of Whites on their way California from Oklahoma or Arkansas, IIRC. The Mormons used some of their Paiute colleagues to kill the women and children, while the Mormons themselves killed the men (or so one story goes).

The reason for the killing is still in doubt. The Church says that President Young, when heard about the plan, sent a messenger to stop it, but didn't get there in time. The opposite side said that either the Church didn't care one way or another, or actually ordered the massacre. Pick the scenario that suits your own biases; everyone else has done so as well!

If you like, read Major Carleton's report ( www.mtn-meadows-assoc.com... ); I first read it about twenty years ago, the first time I was in the Parowan / St. George / Cedar City area. This was before the Internet, but I got a copy from a small museum in Kanab.

The leader of the Mountain Meadow massacre, John D. Lee, was tried and executed by a US military court. I tend to think about that day whenever I cross Lee's Ferry (now a bridge) across the Coloraco River upstream from the Canyon, on my way to Jacob Lake (named after Jacob Hamlin, another player in the history of that time) and the towns of southern Utah.

By the way, there is a society called the Mountain Meadows Association, comprising descendents of the victims and the perpetrators ( www.mtn-meadows-assoc.com... ).



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 01:53 PM
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by saint4god: My question then becomes, if Mormons believe John 3:16 to be the word of God through Jesus, why haven't you listed: Believing in his one and only son, "that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"? Moreso, why all the additional requirements?


I refer you to James chapter 2, where there is a good explanation of why faith is not enough by itself.


by saint4god: Revelation 22:18 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from him his share the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." So, why was the Bible changed again?


This is one Mormons get ALL the time. The answer is actually quite simple. The Bible, when it was originally written, was not written in the form we have it today, i.e. a 2000-page massive volume, but was a bunch of separate books. The warning refers solely to the book of Revelations and not to the entire Bible, since the Bible did not exist at the time of the writing of Revelations.

OTS: As for the Mountain Meadows Massacre, there is a ton of debate over who ordered that, as you touched on. As you might expect, the official church position is that we had nothing to do with causing that massacre.



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
I refer you to James chapter 2, where there is a good explanation of why faith is not enough by itself.


Faith without works is dead. Meaning, it doesn't 'go' anywhere. It does not say "Doing nothing denies your entrance to Heaven". Jesus lays out the requirement in John 3:16. Are you saying this passage in James 2 taken out of context negates what Jesus himself says in John 3:16?


Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
This is one Mormons get ALL the time. The answer is actually quite simple. The Bible, when it was originally written, was not written in the form we have it today, i.e. a 2000-page massive volume, but was a bunch of separate books. The warning refers solely to the book of Revelations and not to the entire Bible, since the Bible did not exist at the time of the writing of Revelations.


Very well then, assuming this is true (because I don't agree that the people of the time who followed God went without previous scripture), has any Mormon changed anything in Revelation?

[edit on 19-5-2005 by saint4God]



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 02:23 PM
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Hmmm...I have no clue what I was thinking about then...maybe I had some sort of wierd dream...well, everything I said about my ethnic origin and all still stands...I've even read about the Massacre before and I know who it involved...I guess I just had a moment of ignorance (please deny me...
)



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
The best churches around here are the baptist, they are very impressive, back home Catholic churches are the most beautiful Spanish architectural building and most of the ones set in each town plaza are as old as the town itself, beautiful paintings inside.


Marg, when you get a chance, visit an Orthodox Church, it's really great.
Classic Christianity.

Ok, I admit, I'm partial. Catholic churches are cool, too


[edit on 19-5-2005 by Aelita]



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 03:53 PM
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uh....see below

[edit on 19-5-2005 by Faeryland]



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 03:54 PM
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Originally posted by Gazrok
How many states really have a high concentration of Mormons? I'll agree that such things should kept out of Scouts, that's for sure.



I'm just curious Gazrok, what do you mean here? About the Scouts.

Faeryland



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 04:23 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
I refer you to James chapter 2, where there is a good explanation of why faith is not enough by itself.


Faith without works is dead. Meaning, it doesn't 'go' anywhere. It does not say "Doing nothing denies your entrance to Heaven". Jesus lays out the requirement in John 3:16. Are you saying this passage in James 2 taken out of context negates what Jesus himself says in John 3:16?


I have no idea why you said this passage was 'out of context'. It is exactly in context.

People cannot be saved if they say 'I believe in Christ' and then act like nothing they do anymore, good or bad, will keep them out of heaven. A *lot* of people make this mistake. By this reasoning, an unrepentant mass murderer who says he 'believes in Christ' will go to heaven. James chapter 2 says that faith alone is insufficient, and gives the example of the person ignoring the poor and hungry.


Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
This is one Mormons get ALL the time. The answer is actually quite simple. The Bible, when it was originally written, was not written in the form we have it today, i.e. a 2000-page massive volume, but was a bunch of separate books. The warning refers solely to the book of Revelations and not to the entire Bible, since the Bible did not exist at the time of the writing of Revelation.

Very well then, assuming this is true (because I don't agree that the people of the time who followed God went without previous scripture), has any Mormon changed anything in Revelations?


People in the time of Christ had the Old Testament, for certain. Whether or not it was available in one volume as it is today, I don't know. But Christ often quoted the old testament, and people knew what he was talking about, or at least the learned ones did; not sure about the regular folks. So, at least parts of the OT were available at the time. They definitely had scriptures in those days, just not the same set we have today in the Bible. They had some of the books we have, but not others, i.e. no new testament yet, obviously. They may also have had books that are lost to us today.

The books of the new testament (including Revelation) were written by several different people at many different times, and are separate writings. Saying that Revelations 22:18-19 applies to the entire Bible is simply untrue. It doesn't make sense when the history of the Bible is considered.

However, if you do not believe that point, then I have to ask you this. Deuteronomy 4:2 says that "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." Therefore, by the reasoning you used with Rev:22, 18-19, Deuteronomy 4:2 applies to the entire Bible, and everything written after Deuteronomy is false scripture, because it was added to the word of God.


has any Mormon changed anything in Revelations?

Yes and no. It depends on your point of view. Joseph Smith, as you are probably aware, re-translated parts of the Bible, including verses in Revelation. This is held by the Mormon church to be correcting earlier mistakes, thus restoring Revelation to the intended original. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people don't see it that way, though, hence my 'yes and no' answer.

The explanation I gave for Rev 22:18-19 is pretty straight forward, based on historical fact, and I don't see how it can be taken any other way.

The 'faith without works' discussion, I have had more than once; this one can be debated forever, but I always ask the other person, why would God let an unrighteous believer into heaven, which happens if your interpretation is correct.

The part about Smith re-translating Revelation is very much open to debate; it is easy to see how a skeptic could argue he just made up some convenient changes to suit himself.

(lol, why do my religion posts always end up being the longest? And they're only worth one ATS point, too, hehe)

I think a discussion like this would be easier to do in ATS chat; I'll keep an eye out for you, saint4god. I'm always interested in other people's perspective on religion. To get a better picture of where you are coming from, what religion are you, saint4god? (I have a theory; I'll tell you if I'm right when I see your reply)



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 08:28 AM
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well i got one question,where did america figure in the old or new testments of the bible?all of the sudden the nation and continent which was never mentioned in the bible is the new jerusalem.how did it happen?
one of the most amazing thing about the mormon sect is the way it views america.joseph smith must be one heck of a patriot.a lot have been said about theis sect here but this issue seems to escape everyone's observation.
now the other one.who is the devil?the mormon version of him is rather different than the classical version accepted by the jews and the christians.here are a few references and questions to any mormon caring to answer.
1 nephi 13:6 the devil is founder of it(the abominable church.(what church are we talking about here?the jewish catholic or other worldy one?still why is this particular word is used?)further the churches are narrowed down to two.the church of the lamb and the church of the devil.
now if US is the new jerusalem then does it translate that every mormon living in US alone are part of this chruch of lamb?what do the mormons tell their converts living around the world?
b.jesus is supposed to preach in the US according to the book and if it is true why didnt jesus preach to everyone other scattered jew around the world himself in person?i mean it literally took centuries for the gospel to be preached and to reach all around the world and so many people have to die in between(including 11 of the apostles).why the rest of the world had to go through this?
i did read some of the book of the mormon sometime ago handed to me by a preacher(a 22 year old guy who can't answer none of my questions and who is doing it because it's supposed to be done by every mormon youth.really why do this when most of the time the guys preaching don't have enough in depth on what they're here to preach?).
anyway looking forward for someone to answer my questions.i got a lot more in my mind and it seems to grow the more i read the book.hopefully i will get some answers.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 11:05 AM
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A mission is not manditory (what you encountered was a lazy missionary that probably didn't need to be out there wasting two years). Also, the devil's church is not specifically mentioned as being one sect of Christianity or any other religious belief.

[edit on 5/21/2005 by petey_pongo23]



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 03:54 PM
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my responses to charon:

well i got one question,where did america figure in the old or new testments of the bible?all of the sudden the nation and continent which was never mentioned in the bible is the new jerusalem.how did it happen?


Since America hadn't yet been discovered, it's not surprising that early Christian writers didn't mention it. Mormons take John 10:16,

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

to mean that Christ did in fact visit other peoples (such as the native americans) and teach them, as well. In the Book of Mormon, there is also a verse that says: (3 Nephi 16:1) (also verses 2 and 3 are relevant)

"And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister."

As for the New Jerusalem part, I'm not really sure why it was said to be in America. I could make a few guesses, but that's all they would be, so I won't.


one of the most amazing thing about the mormon sect is the way it views america.joseph smith must be one heck of a patriot.a lot have been said about theis sect here but this issue seems to escape everyone's observation.


Yes, I think Mormons are pretty much unique in the way they see America. Smith definitely was a patriot, in my opinion. He had a great love for America and democracy. He even said that the US constitution was divinely inspired. Smith was also involved heavily in politics; he was the 2nd mayor of Nauvoo, and ran for president of the US, but was killed before the vote.


now the other one.who is the devil?the mormon version of him is rather different than the classical version accepted by the jews and the christians.here are a few references and questions to any mormon caring to answer.


Fair enough. I'm a Mormon, and I'll try my best to answer them.


1 nephi 13:6 the devil is founder of it(the abominable church.(what church are we talking about here?the jewish catholic or other worldy one?


I don't think this refers to a particular church, but rather to any evil organizations or people. I think 'abominable church' here is synonymous with several terms appearing in Revelation, such as 'mother of harlots and abominations'.


now if US is the new jerusalem then does it translate that every mormon living in US alone are part of this chruch of lamb?what do the mormons tell their converts living around the world?


My understanding is that new jerusalem is not the entire country, just one city, or perhaps a small region. Certainly, it does not mean that only Mormons in the US are saved. It's also possible that 'church of the lamb' doesn't necessarily refer to one church, it may refer to simply all good people and organizations, just as 'abominable church' and 'church of the devil' may refer to all evil ones.


b.jesus is supposed to preach in the US according to the book and if it is true why didnt jesus preach to everyone other scattered jew around the world himself in person?i mean it literally took centuries for the gospel to be preached and to reach all around the world and so many people have to die in between(including 11 of the apostles).why the rest of the world had to go through this?


We believe he DID preach to other peoples around the world, but we have no record of those. (see John 10:16 and 3 Ne. 16:1 for why we believe it) We also believe that Jesus called other apostles in America (3 Ne 12) but we know very little about what they did.


i did read some of the book of the mormon sometime ago handed to me by a preacher(a 22 year old guy who can't answer none of my questions and who is doing it because it's supposed to be done by every mormon youth.really why do this when most of the time the guys preaching don't have enough in depth on what they're here to preach?).


That's cool. I think it's a good book to read, even if you don't believe in Mormonism, since it lets you understand us better, just like, for example, reading the Koran helps you understand Muslims.

We as Mormons are definitely encouraged to share our faith (regardless of age). I do think many Mormons need to learn more about their own faith (same goes for all faiths) because they should be able to answer at least some of the questions people might throw their way. Personally, I knew relatively little about church history and scripture until I was about 19. I had gone to seminary classes and listened in church and read all the mormon scripture, but that was about it. Then (and I forget how this happened, exactly) I came across some claims that attacked mormon beliefs about the origins of the Book of Abraham, and that started my research into a lot more of the history of the church. Since then, I've read several books on the subject, including B.H. Roberts 7 volume 'History of the Church' so hopefully I know a little more than the average Mormon, now.


anyway looking forward for someone to answer my questions.i got a lot more in my mind and it seems to grow the more i read the book.hopefully i will get some answers.


Feel free to throw any questions my way.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by petey_pongo23
A mission is not manditory (what you encountered was a lazy missionary that probably didn't need to be out there wasting two years). Also, the devil's church is not specifically mentioned as being one sect of Christianity or any other religious belief.

[edit on 5/21/2005 by petey_pongo23]


PP23 is correct here. Missions aren't mandatory, although they are strongly encouraged for men. (I'm a 23 year old active Mormon male who didn't go, for various reasons I won't get into) Mormon women can go on missions, too; the only differences being that they go for 18 months rather than 2 years, and there isn't any pressure for them to go at all, unlike the men. As to the part about the devil's church, I agree that it isn't one particular institution.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 04:01 PM
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Originally posted by Zabilgy
An issue that most others who have written about the Mormon Church have left untouched, namely the political ambitions of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and how they have become successful toward this goal, unnoticed by the majority of Americans.

more info at: mormonconspiracy.com...

- Over sixty thousand fully-trained, adequately financed and prepared Mormon missionaries are serving in all parts of the United States and in over 124 countries around the world.

- Many Mormon men have been hired by the FBI, a preponderance when considering their proportion to the percentage of the population.

- The church utilizes radio and television stations throughout the United States to broadcast “Home Front Series” offering to send listeners free copies of the KJV of the Bible or the “Book of Mormon" and family-value videos. They are given toll-free phone numbers to call for these. When they arrive, they come with two Mormon missionaries “attached,” wanting an appointment to talk to families. These radio and television commercials are professionally produced and designed to enhance the public image of the church. (For anyone who orders these free materials from the Home Front, the Mormon Church has a professionally organized follow-up program. In addition, after the missionary visits, the mission president’s office of the district follows up these proselytizing calls).

- In states with a high concentration of Mormon Churches, non-Mormon boys who want to participate in Boy Scout activities often must join the Mormon Church sponsored group. In these areas the Boy Scout troops become important recruiting prospects for the church. Because the Boy Scouts have a “God and Country” award for those performing their duties well, it connects Scouts with a religion, and thus Scout programs become also an important proselytizing and indoctrination tool for the church.

- Just as the United States Army has its military academy, and the United States Air Force has the Air Force academy, the Mormon Church has Brigham Young University for training its future leaders. There are at least 100,000 leadership positions for Mormon priesthood holders to assume, including bishops, stake presidents, mission, district and branch presidents and the General Authorities. What better way could be found to provide for the thousands of leaders for the Mormon Church than to give them a low cost education which not only ensures further indoctrination into church teachings and beliefs, but also provides students with a lifetime comfortable income? And ten percent of this income will be funneled back into the church to pay for continued proselytizing and expansion of the church, all controlled by a handful of men, the General authorities. And the Mormon Church hierarchy’s indoctrination program is having outstanding success, for according to a BYU survey of its students, 98 percent believe in Joseph Smith as a Prophet and 98 percent believe that the Mormon Church is divine, the “Only true Church on the face of the whole earth.” In addition, 88 percent would “place obedience to authority above your own personal preferences.”

These are only excerpts. There is a lot more interesting and sometimes scary information on the site I posted above. I don't know about everyone else, but I always thought the Mormons were a pretty scary lot!!







[edit on 8-4-2005 by Zabilgy]


Okay, MY TURN...

First of all, in response to your first paragraph...who HASN'T heard of the Mormon Church...and that it's growing??

To your second paragraph, I say...Big Deal?? Every major church on Earth has Missionaries. What's your point?

Now you're cocking your brow at the fact that the FBI recruits from BYU. So does the CIA, NSA, all four branches of the military PLUS the Coast Guard...Plus the Department of Treasury! Unlike the rest of U.S. college campuses, BYU gives government recruiters an open-double-door policy. Any college worth a crap should do the same.

Don't you think a college's first responsibility should be to help you get ALL THAT MONEY YOU PAID THEM back in your pocket by getting you hired by the best and highest paying bosses around, or at the very least, give every employer at shot at the best and brightest the school has to offer?

How interesting that you compare BYU with West Point and the Air Force Academy...but not Notre Dame (Catholic) or Harvard (Protestant) or Yale (Chruch of England).

As far as the television ads go, give me a break! I'm posting this on Saturday, the 21st. Turn on your television tomorrow and tell me how many Televangelists you see are Mormon, okay?

Concerning the Boy Scouts. Excuse me, but if I surveyed the religious background of a Scout Troop in Salt Lake City, OF COURSE the bulk of them are going to be Mormon! I'm sure if I did the same survey in South Boston, the bulk of them would be Catholic...in Atlanta, probably Baptist..and so it goes. Yes, the church DOES have a habit of "brow beating" it's members to stay, but after growing up a Mormon in Salt Lake City, I can say honestly I've NEVER...EVER...heard of somebody having been forced to join the church in order to also join a National Organization such as the Scouts.

Also, as far as these "recruits" giving money back to the Church...HINT...it's called Tithing. Look it up.

Now, so you don't think I'm TOTALLY hostile toward your opinion, I'll admit that the overall point of MOST Churchs is scary...that being, to rule the world, to which I say, "Yeah...and...??"

Do yourself a favor. Join a church..."stick to your guns" as they say...and the Mormons will leave you alone. If you can't do either of those, then simply frown, close the door, and the Missioinaries will leave.

Of course, you can always answer the door with a Marlboro smoldering in one hand and a bottle of Wild Turkey in the other. THAT might scare even THEM away!


[edit on 21-5-2005 by Toelint]



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
I have no idea why you said this passage was 'out of context'. It is exactly in context.


It's in context as to what you should do as a Christian, not whether you get into Heaven or not. That's John 3:16.


Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
People cannot be saved if they say 'I believe in Christ' and then act like nothing they do anymore, good or bad, will keep them out of heaven. A *lot* of people make this mistake. By this reasoning, an unrepentant mass murderer who says he 'believes in Christ' will go to heaven. James chapter 2 says that faith alone is insufficient, and gives the example of the person ignoring the poor and hungry.


You and I could not judge that person's heart to know if they are sincere. That's God's job per Revelation. If a mass murderer repents, accepts Jesus Christ as their saviour and serves God, guess what. I'll be seeing him/her there. Sure, that makes us uncomfortable now, because we do not understand the death of the body yields a perfected body with God. I can quote verses if you like.


Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
Joseph Smith, as you are probably aware, re-translated parts of the Bible, including verses in Revelation.


Thanks, that's what I needed to know.


Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
The 'faith without works' discussion, I have had more than once; this one can be debated forever, but I always ask the other person, why would God let an unrighteous believer into heaven, which happens if your interpretation is correct.


Because Jesus died to forgive all sinners, no matter what they used to do. They were born-again by accepting him as saviour and God as sovereign.


Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
I think a discussion like this would be easier to do in ATS chat; I'll keep an eye out for you, saint4god. I'm always interested in other people's perspective on religion. To get a better picture of where you are coming from, what religion are you, saint4god? (I have a theory; I'll tell you if I'm right when I see your reply)


Sorry, no can do on chat. My day gets broken up so it's easier to 'background' a post than do real time.

I'm Christian. I found God, was directed read the Book and have been that way for a decade and a half. I can say that within the belief, I tend to agree moreso with Protestantism than others, but ultimately I follow His lead.



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 12:28 PM
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I know a lot of Mormons and generally what the Mormons on this thread posted is true. There are a few nits I could pick but they aren't important.

Is there a conspiracy?

I believe there is. Proportionally the FBI had or has more Mormons. Mormons are clanish and tend to place the welfare of their church above all else- this bothers me. One of the sneakiest crooks I know is a Mormon on some kind of state council. He is an exception. I believe most of them (Mormons) are honest and self-reliant. Fairest Judge I know is a Mormon.

The conspiracy (as I see it) is political control at the federal level. I don't look to seeing a Mormon running for president in the next 20 years. Too much heat on one's past. Few people could weather the storm that would erupt as the LDS early days were paraded upon the public stage- it would damage the church significantly.

I've known a fair number of young adults that have gone on missions. I can say that from what I have seen it has helped each of them greatly.

I appreciate the Mormon 'experiment.' I think it is grand. Sometimes I wish other churches would have done similar. But as in life, there are dark sides. Drug use in Utah is rising quicker than in most states- this is really sad.

Mormons have a fair amount of hard core propaganda too. The Book of Mormon, the Popul VU, Pearl of Great Price and the Articles of Faith are the main books as I recollect. Follow the link, I doubt you will find much to disagree with.

Back to the conspiracy- federal control. Decision makers in high and not-so-public places. This is where I believe the Mormon Church is headed. It isn't all Mormons or even most, but a group that 'promotes their own.'



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by saint4god
You and I could not judge that person's heart to know if they are sincere. That's God's job per Revelation. If a mass murderer repents, accepts Jesus Christ as their saviour and serves God, guess what. I'll be seeing him/her there. Sure, that makes us uncomfortable now, because we do not understand the death of the body yields a perfected body with God. I can quote verses if you like.


Fair enough. It's possible such a person can repent, although it is extremely unlikely, in my opinion. I guess a better way for me to put it would have been to say that a hypocrite who claims to believe in God but does not, will not make it into Heaven, which is what I was trying to show with my example, but I guess I wasn't too clear.


Originally posted by saint4god
Because Jesus died to forgive all sinners, no matter what they used to do. They were born-again by accepting him as saviour and God as sovereign


Yes, those who accept Christ and live by his teachings will be forgiven.


Originally posted by JoeDoaks
The Book of Mormon, the Popul VU, Pearl of Great Price and the Articles of Faith are the main books as I recollect.


I've been a Mormon my entire life, and I have never heard of the Popul VU. We use the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price (which includes the Articles of Faith), the Bible (King James Version) and the Doctrine and Covenants.

I don't agree with JoeDoak's theory, but he hasn't said anything that I can disagree with, except for the Popul VU. I googled it and its some sort of 16th century text on Mayan creationism. I can assure you this work is not used by Mormons.



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 01:11 AM
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Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
I don't agree with JoeDoak's theory, but he hasn't said anything that I can disagree with, except for the Popul VU. I googled it and its some sort of 16th century text on Mayan creationism. I can assure you this work is not used by Mormons.

I can assure you it (Popul Vu) is.

Well, let me back track a tad- I can assure you that it WAS- maybe it isn't now. As with virtually every religion (probably all) that engage in proactive outreach some publications come in and out of vogue.

I was first given the book along with other Mormon books around 1982 by practicing Mormons that also had been Mormons their entire life.

I agree that now the KJV Bible is part of the Mormon book list but I don't recollect it being all that important 20 years back. Could be my memory? I also note some Mormons have pictures of Jesus (as do other people as well). I am a butt about it I admit. I can't help but ask about the picture. After a pleasant few lines (usually with smiles) are put forth I always ask where the signature is. This of course leads into graven image talk and all that-

I do this (and I realize I am wrong) to show these folks that what is acceptable to them may have a different meaning to others. I got started doing this after listening to a couple of xyz (pick your brand, lots of them fit here) types berate a Catholic.

The Popul Vu is a hard to read and boring book for me, much like the Bhagavad Veda/Gita (Hindu holy book). As hard as they were to read the Veda had a very important message through out yet the Popul Vu's message was lost to me. I read the Book of Mormon as well and found it – well, biblical in a straind sort of way. I won't pick at it only because it is someone's holy book and they find what they find in it- clearly I didn't find what many others have.

Conspiracy theorists would have 'meat for the grinder' with 2nd Nephi. I didn't buy it, obviously.

You do know that at one time freemasonry was very strong among Mormons, right?


. . . those who accept Christ and live by his teachings will be forgiven.

That is such a gross understatement as to win the bear trap of the decade award.


By grace alone (without works) has always bothered me with some Biblical people. I feel like smacking them in the head sometimes.

I've known some real rotten people that claimed they were 'saved.' I know one that can quote chapter and verse- but he is much like me in the above books- he hasn't gotten the message. He was just 'elected' pastor of a church (shudder).



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 06:49 AM
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Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
I guess a better way for me to put it would have been to say that a hypocrite who claims to believe in God but does not, will not make it into Heaven


I feel ya.


Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
Yes, those who accept Christ and live by his teachings will be forgiven.


Woot!



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by JoeDoaks

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
I don't agree with JoeDoak's theory, but he hasn't said anything that I can disagree with, except for the Popul VU. I googled it and its some sort of 16th century text on Mayan creationism. I can assure you this work is not used by Mormons.

I can assure you it (Popul Vu) is.

Well, let me back track a tad- I can assure you that it WAS- maybe it isn't now. As with virtually every religion (probably all) that engage in proactive outreach some publications come in and out of vogue.

I was first given the book along with other Mormon books around 1982 by practicing Mormons that also had been Mormons their entire life.


I've been a Mormon all my life, and I've read a lot of Mormon history, and the Popul Vu has never been a canonized work. I had never come across it until you mentioned it. It might be a good read; I have no idea. There are works that have gone 'in and out of vogue' in the Mormon church, such as the Journal of Discourses (mostly Brigham Young's sermons) but the Popul Vu has never been used by the Mormon church as scripture. Your friend who gave you the book along with other Mormon materials must simply have thought it a good read, or maybe similar somehow to something we use. It does sound a bit like the Book of Abraham to me, but that's all I can think of.



I agree that now the KJV Bible is part of the Mormon book list but I don't recollect it being all that important 20 years back. Could be my memory? I also note some Mormons have pictures of Jesus (as do other people as well). I am a butt about it I admit. I can't help but ask about the picture. After a pleasant few lines (usually with smiles) are put forth I always ask where the signature is. This of course leads into graven image talk and all that-


The KJV Bible is important in our religion, but it tends to take a back seat towards some of our other, uniquely Mormon, scripture, with a lot of people. I think it used to be more popular in the earlier days of the church, since it was familiar to most people, whereas the newer Mormon scripture was not. I've spent roughly the same amount of time reading the KJV as I have the rest of Mormon scripture, but that's unusual for a Mormon.



You do know that at one time freemasonry was very strong among Mormons, right?


Yes, it sure was; even our founder, Joseph Smith, became a Mason, about 10 years after founding the Mormon church.



By grace alone (without works) has always bothered me with some Biblical people. I feel like smacking them in the head sometimes.


I've read biblical verses both for and against this point. It seems logical to me that grace alone is insufficient, but of course I am biased towards Mormon teachings.




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