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The Mormon Conspiracy to convert the world into Mormons

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posted on Apr, 11 2005 @ 01:35 PM
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Originally posted by Biegacz
..The Doctrine and Covenants, a Mormon holy book:
"...In September, 1823, and at later times, Joseph Smith received visitations from Moroni, an angel of light, who revealed the resting place of the ancient record from which The Book of Mormon was afterward translated."
Now here's the cheese--In the glossary of Mormon Doctrine, by Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, the term Angel of Light is defined "see Devil"!!!!!!!


That IS interesting


DragonsDemesne, could you please check out www.abovetopsecret.com... and answer the question I have there? I'd like to know what the symbols mean to you in the link referenced there by gps777. Also, any other questions you'd like to tackle there I'm sure would help.


[edit on 11-4-2005 by saint4God]




posted on Apr, 11 2005 @ 01:51 PM
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Originally posted by Zabilgy



Im cunfused are not all religions tring to convert the world?


It certainly appears that way. It just seems that some are better than others. Better at brainwashing and manipulating and laying on the guilt nice and thick. Also better at taking advantage of people that are naive and easily taken advantage of....or better at taking advantage of people that have self esteem issues, etc.....

This is just one topic on one religion. WE could certainly open similar threads for all religions. I just didn't happen to do so here!!

One problem I have with the Mormons...the Men in the Mormon church: They have decided that it's okay for them to have more than one wife. That isn't in the Bible, so where did they get it? They got it from the sick gentlemen that started the religion. They believe that the more wives they have, the greater chance they have of going to the promised land. i.e. If they have 10 wives, they believe they have a 10 times better chance of going to heaven. And, they treat women like subserviant slaves. Nice religion. Can the women have more than one husband? NO! Why not??


Jews do not attempt to convert anyone. You can ask to convert to Judaism and if you find a willing Rabbi, you can begin a course of study. You will be welcomed as a full member and recognized as Jewish if you complete all the requirements.

You are never going to get a knock on your door from a Jewish missionary and you aren't going to see literature scattered around about why you should become a Jew. So, I don't know the full list of which religions have active Conversion Squads but, not all of them do.

Just to set the record straight.



posted on Apr, 11 2005 @ 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Biegacz
..The Doctrine and Covenants, a Mormon holy book:
"...In September, 1823, and at later times, Joseph Smith received visitations from Moroni, an angel of light, who revealed the resting place of the ancient record from which The Book of Mormon was afterward translated."
Now here's the cheese--In the glossary of Mormon Doctrine, by Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, the term Angel of Light is defined "see Devil"!!!!!!!

That IS interesting


DragonsDemesne, could you please check out www.abovetopsecret.com... and answer the question I have there? I'd like to know what the symbols mean to you in the link referenced there by gps777. Also, any other questions you'd like to tackle there I'm sure would help.
[edit on 11-4-2005 by saint4God]


I performed a search for the phrase "angel of light" on the entire set of Mormon scripture, and it occurs in the following verses:

A) 2 Cor. 11:14
B) 2 Ne. 9:9
C) D&C 128:20
D) D&C 129:8

A: says that a devil can give himself the appearance of an angel of light.
B: basically the same as A) only in different language
C: says that Michael detected the devil pretending to be an angel of light on the banks of the Susquehanna river
D: says that if an angel of light appears, you can test if it is a devil pretending (see verse 7-8 for the test)

There is nothing in official Mormon scripture that describes Moroni as 'an angel of light'. (If you don't believe me, go to scriptures.lds.org... and go to Search Options at the top of the page) I had 16 hits, but only those 4 were relevant, since the others had the right words, but not that phrase. So, I don't know where that came from. It certainly isn't in the D&C or any other Mormon scripture.

I'll go take a look at that thread right now, saint4god, hopefully I will be able to help



posted on Apr, 11 2005 @ 09:21 PM
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Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
I'll go take a look at that thread right now, saint4god, hopefully I will be able to help


No hurries no worries, I'm just glad someone is willing to investigate further.



posted on Apr, 11 2005 @ 09:24 PM
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Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
I performed a search for the phrase "angel of light" on the entire set of Mormon scripture, and it occurs in the following verses:

There is nothing in official Mormon scripture that describes Moroni as 'an angel of light'. (If you don't believe me, go to scriptures.lds.org... and go to Search Options at the top of the page) I had 16 hits, but only those 4 were relevant, since the others had the right words, but not that phrase. So, I don't know where that came from. It certainly isn't in the D&C or any other Mormon scripture.


He is referring to pre-1980 D&C, specifically the introduction and not the text itself. It was removed in 1980. A copy of that introduction can be found on several nomo sites - like this one. If you aren't comfortable with the site, you can always ask someone in your ward if they have an older triple combination.

B.



posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 12:03 AM
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Wow if people had posted some of the ignorant crap that they posted in this thread about another subject it would have been a bloodbath...
So far those that have tried to discredit the mormons in this thread are batting 0 for I don't know how many.

No there is no direct deposit option for tithing... further more tithing in the amount of ten percent is based on biblical precedent. On that same subject you do not HAVE TO pay it, and there are no reprecussions if you don't, as a matter of fact noone outside of you and your bishop will know if you paid a full tithe as they take confidentiallity very seriously.
Also unlike other churches which do offerings during a service and use the shame factor of everyone being able to see what you did or did not give. The mormons use a slip similar to a deposit slip which you can take and seal in a white envelope and drop by the bishops office anytime the building is unlocked.

The tabernacle thing I am not going to touch just stop being morons and spreading junior high quality rumors... Seriously shame on you!!!

Polygamy is no longer practiced by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Others who use the same books and often time misleadingly similar names however, do practice polygamy. And it is a constant source of shame and embarassment for the people of the church.
Now speaking as an exmember on the subject of polygamy here is what I was taught... Polygamy is considered an ordinance which is not to be practiced currently because it violates the law of the land the church resides in (that means the US government doesn't like it so they don't do it) At a later date they do plan to continue the practice, however this falls after the bad things in revelations apparently.


Now if you want actual bones of contention to pick with the mormons here are some questions you should ask them....

Why is it that after you join if you ask to be struck from the records not only will you recieve the run around, but even after you do fill out the 3 forms your name is not taken from the rolls but left with a notation saying you are no longer a member.

Did you know that your founder was a convicted treasure hunter who was said to use two white stones in his cap to find treasure. And he was only convicted after bilking people out of money on bogus treasure hunts...

Isn't the two white stones he used to bilk passerby's on fake treasure eerilly similar to the two white stones known as the urum and thumum that he used to translate the book of mormon?

Those are all legitimate questions... However I do have to say that even though I do not practice the religion anymore I bear the members of the religion no ill will. As a whole they are thrifty industrious people who's slightly quixotic and old fashioned views are entertaining. And it can be noted also that they are some of the nicest people on average that you will ever want to meet.



posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 01:20 AM
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Originally posted by Bleys

He is referring to pre-1980 D&C, specifically the introduction and not the text itself. It was removed in 1980. A copy of that introduction can be found on several nomo sites - like this one. If you aren't comfortable with the site, you can always ask someone in your ward if they have an older triple combination.

B.


Yeah, my edition of D&C is newer than that, I got it when i was baptized at 8 as a present (1990). My reasoning (which is somewhere in the horribly long post I made on www.abovetopsecret.com...) is that there are angels of light, and then there are devils that pretend to be angels of light. I listed a few scriptural references (1 biblical & a couple mormon) about angels of light. For example, the angel Gabriel in Luke 1, I think, any Christian would agree was sent from God. Not all angels are of the devil, only some are; they can pretend to be sent from God. The Mormon belief is that Moroni was also sent from God, as Gabriel was in this case.



posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 07:53 AM
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How does a person get to heaven?


Side-note: Thanks again for your thorough address on that thread I linked above. I didn't know you were going to address EVERYONE's questions and it must have taken a lot of time and research. That kind of work is certainly commendable.



posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
How does a person get to heaven?

Side-note: Thanks again for your thorough address on that thread I linked above. I didn't know you were going to address EVERYONE's questions and it must have taken a lot of time and research. That kind of work is certainly commendable.


Lol, I didn't know either, I ended up spending the whole evening on it. I just kinda kept going and going. I skimmed it over and laughed when I saw at the top something like 'I have a few comments about this'.

Ok, how does a person get to heaven according to Mormon teachings? I think I'll just list all of the points I can think of, hopefully covering most/all of the answer. So, in no particular order, except that in which I think of them:
1) Baptism This has to be done, by someone holding the Aaronic priesthood. It can be done on Earth, or it can be done vicariously for dead people in the temples. In the latter case, the dead person gets a choice to accept or reject the baptism performed for him/her. Baptism is to be done by immersion (whole body underwater). It symbolises the resurrection where you will come up out of the grave, like you come out of the water. Actually, now that I think about it, if children die before age 8 (minimum age to be baptised in mormon church) it isn't necessary, since they automatically go to the celestial kingdom. But other than them, it's necessary.
2) (men only) You need to have the Melchizedek priesthood. If you didn't get it while living on earth, it also can be given vicariously in the temple. Same as baptism, recipient can accept/reject it.
3) Marriage. You have to be married in the temple 'for time and all eternity'. Mormons believe that the goal of life is to end up as gods like God, and create our own worlds like earth, and you need a man and a woman to create children. If two people were married on earth, but not in the temple, marriages can be performed for those two in the temple, also. If you were never married in life, well, there's no official doctrine that I know of, but my understanding is you can meet somebody after death (maybe in the millennium?) and get married. I think this, or something like it, has to be possible, especially for those who never got a chance (hardly fair to condemn a 9 year old who dies in a car accident for not marrying)
4) Obey commandments 10 commandments, word of wisdom, that sort of thing, I'm lumping all in this. You have to do your best to live all the commandments. However, God doesn't condemn people for breaking a commandment if they didn't know it was a commandment. Essentially, ignorance of the law is an excuse, in this case. Nobody can be perfect, though, and we all mess up and break commandments to one degree or another. That is why we have...
5) repentance. When (not if) you sin, you need to repent. Repentance consists of a) genuine sorrow for the wrong you did, b) restitution, if possible (ex: you steal my wallet, you have to give it back), c) promise never to do it again, d) if its something serious, confess to a bishop. Serious stuff includes, but is not limited to, adultery, fornication, murder, assault. Taking the sacrament is also a good thing, it symbolises the renewal of the promises you made at baptism (basically you are promising to live the best life you can)
6) endowments This is necessary before you can be married in the temple. It is also necessary before serving a mission. I don't know too much about this (I haven't gotten mine), but it's some sort of ritual in the temple. Even if I did know enough to explain it properly, I'm not supposed to talk about the details, since the temple ceremonies are considered sacred. I do know you make a bunch more covenants with God, in addition to the baptismal ones. Not sure what they are, though, since one of them is not to talk about them.

Ok, that's all I can think of right now. If there's something that comes to mind that you expected to be on the list, just mention it and I'll answer.



posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 09:17 PM
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Do Mormons believe the New Testament is the word of God?



posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 10:18 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Do Mormons believe the New Testament is the word of God?



So far as it has been correctly translated - see #8 of the articles of faith. The belief was that the various translations, politics and what have you, made the words unreliable but not its intent. Since the BoM was given directly to one man - it is considered perfect. My question is - what if that one man was a nutjob?



1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

3. We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul--We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.


B.



posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 10:37 PM
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Bleys, if you don't put that cigarette down, you'll lose your Temple Recommend!

It reminds me, in the movie "The Singles Ward", of the hero coming home and finding his wife with a half-finished six-pack and a pack of smokes.



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 12:07 AM
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Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Bleys, if you don't put that cigarette down, you'll lose your Temple Recommend!



Can an atheist get a temple recommend?

Actually I just find religion interesting and enjoy reading about them. The Mormons are of particular fascination because they are so new and their history so well documented and easy to obtain. You can actually see written in stone (so to speak) doctrine change with the political and social climate.

Bleys



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 12:10 AM
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: Originally posted by saint4God
Do Mormons believe the New Testament is the word of God?



: Originally posted by Bleys
So far as it has been correctly translated - see #8 of the articles of faith. The belief was that the various translations, politics and what have you, made the words unreliable but not its intent. Since the BoM was given directly to one man - it is considered perfect. My question is - what if that one man was a nutjob?


Yeah, pretty much. I can't give you an exact estimate of the number of changes Joseph Smith made to the Bible, but compared to the volume of the test, it's a very small percentage, I would say less than 1%, since most pages don't have any changes. The changes range from the virtually irrelevant (like Matthew 28, where he changes 1 angel to 2 angels), to extremely significant (like Genesis 14, where he adds 15 verses about Melchizedek and the Priesthood) Most of the changes are 3 words or less in a single place, and usually don't change the meaning that much. (we also believe in the Old Testament, the D&C, a set of revelations, most of which were given to Joseph Smith, and the Pearl of Great Price, which is mostly comprised of the book of Moses and the book of Abraham, as well as the 13 articles of faith Bley quoted earlier, plus a few pages of other stuff)

For example, in numerous places, the Bible will say something like in Exodus 32:14, "And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people". It doesn't make sense that God would have to repent of anything, yet variations on this phrase occur multiple times in the bible. So he changed the wording (with God's inspiration, we believe) to indicate it was the people who had to repent of the evil, not God.

As a semi-relevant side note, several years ago when I was reading a bunch of mythology, I was looking into some old english fairy tales from about 500 years ago. They had a use for the word 'repent' that doesn't exist in modern english. A phrase would occur something like 'the giant repented of the decision to let Jack go free', meaning that the giant had basically changed his mind about an earlier decision. I saw that a couple of times in different stories. Given that the KJV was translated into English at roughly the time these stories were written, I concluded that the word 'repent' could also mean 'to change one's mind' during those times. Most of the changes I noticed in the KJV of this phrase reflects that alternate meaning of repent.

As to the BoM translation, it is considered correct because it was translated with the help of God, whereas the Bible was translated by Man. WIth regards to Bleys comment 'what if the one man was a nutjob?', well, there would certainly be a problem, then. I obviously don't believe Smith was crazy, but there are certainly those who do. Like pretty much anything in religion, it's a matter of faith.



posted on May, 14 2005 @ 08:22 PM
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This is the silliest thread on this page.
The Mormon Conspiracy to convert everyone to mormonism.
After all this, is anyone close to conversion?
Before this thread, many of us have talked to the clean cut guys that come to your door on saturday afternoons. Have you ever felt close to being converted?
Do you know anyone who has been converted? And if you do, on a scale of 1-10, how would you rate the intellect of that person?
If there is a great conspiracy. I think they need a new plan. This one isn't working very well.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 07:21 PM
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Okay, so it's either the government, aliens, the media, or now Mormons that are conducting a worldwide takeover conspiracy? Seriously, think about this for a second...there is nothing secretive about the LDS Church (notice not "Mormon Church") wanting to convert people. As soon as a missionary knocks on your door, your first thought isn't "I wonder if he just wants to have some tea with the family..." Okay, so anyone familiar with the LDS community would know that a missionary wouldn't be drinking tea at someone's house. The point is...they aren't on 2-year (or 18-month for ladies) missions to play video games and defend themselves on internet forums.

Second and final point (because I'm getting hungry)...bishops, clerks, etc. do not get paid. How are they rewarded with a comfortable income then? They work their own 40-hour week jobs PLUS their Church duties.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 08:15 PM
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As some of you might know, I'm a member of a Nordic - Aryan cult, but three out of four of the other guys in my band are all LDS. Gary the mandolin player has five kids (and I watched 'em all grow up and leave but the youngest) and is a pediatrician (which is a good thing with all those kids) AND he was called to be Bishop last year. He asked me to come to his consecration (I'm sure I was the only non-Mormon there) and it was a moving experience indeed.

And he still finds time to play, but he's hard to get to the band practices!

These dudes have been my best friends for 12 years. We (and our wives and children) go camping together, go to concerts together, hit bluegrass festivals (usually with our wives staying home) and invite each other over for dinner, borrow each other's summer cabins for weekends -- anything you would do with any set of close, long-term friends. They have played at fund-raisers for my church (for free) and then, pulled out their checkbooks to write a supporting check of their own.

And Ghod knows how many Relief Society dinners and ward picnics I have played. We even did a sacrament service (singing a capella, of course).

These guys believe in a universe created by a loving and merciful Heavenly Father who sent his Son Jesus the Christ to atone for our sins. The rest of the stuff is buttermilk; that makes Mormons Christians in my book.

Although I don't share much of their theology, they are, as I see it, fine Christian men -- much more Christian, by the way, than the mean-spirited, bigoted, and (thankfully) banned poster who started this thread.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 09:20 PM
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wow...yet again I am blown away by an 'Off_The_Street' post. Thank you for that...that's the best thing that I've heard all day...and we had BBQ ribs for dinner so that's saying a lot


cjf

posted on May, 18 2005 @ 11:02 PM
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I was somewhat intrigued when I first came across the header but as I made my way pleasantly to the current end I was thankful to see some positive views on the Mormons and some open mindedness on the subject. However my extended family would not. If they had any idea I am not going to cast negative dispersions against the Mormons, given the chance, I might not ever be invited to another family reunion.

My family indoctrinates its’ members against the Mormon Church beginning at a very early age because past historical events. The events which happened between my ancestors and the Mormons just about wiped out my family in the middle 1800’s. It is an obscure event for most, but it is called the ‘Mountain Meadow Massacre” over 120 unarmed persons killed. I believe Bill Fancher and Scott Fancher have published papers on the incident to document the Fancher accounts and finally got the monument on the location back into the family control a few years ago. There was a resurgence the events between the church and my family back in the late 1990’s as my family was seeking a formal admittance by the Mormon church concerning the massacre, none came, and to this day do not acknowledge the events as a ‘formal act’ by the church or its followers at the time; however they maintained the monument for many years.

What is odd to me is, it is ‘distant past’ history, but to a number of the older members of my family it is fresh in their minds because they were told first hand accounts by the decedents which survived the massacre. By far the most negative account to the story was told by my great grandmother whose father was a survivor of the massacre. This often serves as a reminder to me, and with my own children (who do not hear the same stories I did) the overwhelming amount of ‘bias and deep impressions’ you receive from your family. To this day whenever I see or hear something about the Mormons I personally immediately sense negativity when I have no personal complaints about the Mormon's beliefs or culture today. If anyone is interested in the story, I’ll try to find one that fits close to the family story on the internet.

Needless to say, if they are trying to convert the world...I know personally a few people that will be very hard to convince.


.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 11:40 PM
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Well it sucks that the people behind that killing of Native Americans happened to be Mormons. I am part Native American, although the majority of that is Cherokee. My people were killed, beaten, forced out of their homeland, and the women were often subjected to far worse abuse. The people that did this were white, but I do not hate the white man. I am also part black (I do not like the term "African American" because I'm an American), but I do not hate whites for lynching my relatives. Maybe this is because I am also Scottish, German, and Irish to name a few nationalities. My skin is light, but history is vast...and filled with people that were murdered in cold blood by others...some which can be traced to a single line of a family...but I can not hold that against them. But what do I do if my relatives had been in the mob that were sent out to kill members of the LDS Church? The Native Americans have a couple of things in common with the early members of the LDS Church, and one of those is that is was LEGAL to kill them...chew on that fatback for a minute...it must have been a scary time then, but it still doesn't make it right...



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