Well, with the passing of the pope this week, I got to thinking about heaven. I wondered if heaven has levels. I mean, does the Pope get a better version of heaven, since he was the Pope? Does he get a better version, than say, some schmo who just barely made it in?

Also, do you think heaven is a real place or is it a mental state that we lapse into after death? Since I'm not aware of anyone whos made the return trip, Im not sure what to think. I'm Catholic, but it was never discussed.

I'm Protestant, so I definitely don't believe so. But I don't think Catholics believe that either. In Revelations, heaven is the "New Jerusalem" where we all live together in peace with God.

No, we all go back to the same place were we all came from where all souls come from, the roles we chose to play in the big theater called life is just a choice.

We all the same and belong to the same source when we shed our human remains.

What heaven?

You mean a higher deminsion?

Hmm. doesnt that sound like a rip off. I mean, I'm a good person and all, but I think Mother Theresea or the Pope did alot more good with their little finger that I will with my whole life. I think there should be a better reward for them. Just an opinion.

You mean a higher deminsion?

What I mean is, do you think that heaven is a real place, or is it a state of mind that our brain enters? Kinda heavy, either way

Originally posted by spliff4020
Does he get a better version, than say, some schmo who just barely made it in?

Heaven, in christianity, is generally said to be an 'unobscured vision of god', not, say, an earth-like paradise, or a conglomeration of shadows and shades, or a happy banquet hall, as in various other religions.

That isn't to say that some christians beleive that heaven is just a garden like paradise or a 'super nice' version of life or something.

Also, in some christian groups, specifically ones more concerned with the 2nd comming and resurection, a person dies, and remians in the grave, until the second comming, when their bodies rise from the grave and fly off to heaven (while jesus establishes a thousand year kingdom on earth and administers it).

Sorry this had to go to BTS but the allmighty mods seem bored again.
Points would be nice for my efforts, but I digress...

Nygdan--> good answer, but still is it a state of mind or a real place?

Originally posted by spliff4020
Hmm. doesnt that sound like a rip off. I mean, I'm a good person and all, but I think Mother Theresea or the Pope did alot more good with their little finger that I will with my whole life. I think there should be a better reward for them. Just an opinion.

I would never put mother teresa in the same category as the pope.. she was selfless and had humility.. she lived her life caring for others and did not try dominate them. The pope.. though there have been worse ones.. [and we could still do worse ] had knowledge of pedophelia in his ranks.. made an announcement: 'it is a scientific fact that condoms don't prevent the aids virus' which no doubt contributed to many deaths in the third world.. and he chastised charity organisations for supplying women from rape camps with the day after pill. He has done a great deal of good in his lifetime but he has also potentially caused alot of damage.. if there were a heaven [or hell] to qualify for he'd be judged just like everyone else irrospective of the robes he wore.
If I believed.. I wouldn't be certain of the pope's destiny but I'm sure M. Teresa would be getting a shiny new halo.

[edit on 7-4-2005 by riley]

I dont think the pope understood the full scope of the molestation thing here. I think he tought it was a minor "american" problem. Thats the point of cardinals. They are rule localy. And by the time it got full blown, he was way to ill to do anything anyways. Thats not the point of this post though.

The point (or question) is about heaven. Is it a real place or a state of mind?

is it a state of mind or a real place?

I can't see how it'd be a physical place, or even a 'mentally imagined place', if its an unobscured vision of god itself. More like a emotion or a state of mind. So the pope, a brutal thug, the apostles, all'd have the same experience in 'heaven' (assuming ultimately saved)

Doenst that seem like a rip off though? Wheres the pay off for being REALLY good, as opposed to somewhat good? Hmm, maybe I need to reconsider my life here...

riley the pope is not in charge of priests. He does not make a person a priest, move them, or ANYTHING. He did not know what happened and when he found out he was utterly disgusted.

the pope IS a NORMAL man...

he is ONLY "perfect" when speaking about church laws or morals...

he sins just like us...

a pope could go to hell

anyway, if there is such a place as heaven, we go to the SAME heaven...

Originally posted by spliff4020
I dont think the pope understood the full scope of the molestation thing here. I think he tought it was a minor "american" problem.

The pope is briefed on everything that happens in his church.. and he'd have to be as there have been millions of dollars given in comepensation. The buck stoped with him.

Thats the point of cardinals. They are rule localy. And by the time it got full blown, he was way to ill to do anything anyways. Thats not the point of this post though.

That is not very realistic. It only became 'full blown' because it became more public.. but these litagations have been going on for some 20/30 years. If a company is in legal trouble it's CEO is guarenteed to know. For the record.. it was only after it became public that he made some sort of apology for it. It would have been impossible for him not to have known the world wide extent and frequency of it much earlier.

The point (or question) is about heaven.

Your point was that the pope should get a 'better' heaven [not what heaven is].. my point was his morals have not always been perfect and that someone working in a soup kitchen would have just as much chance as he.

Is it a real place or a state of mind?

I don't know.. energy doesn't die.. it transforms. I do not know what form that is when it's not within a life form.. or where it might reside.

Originally posted by Croat56
riley the pope is not in charge of priests.

Is he not in charge of cardinals and bishops?

He does not make a person a priest, move them, or ANYTHING. He did not know what happened and when he found out he was utterly disgusted.

Sure he was. So.. is living in ignorance really a state of bliss?

[edit on 8-4-2005 by riley]

The bible says we are judged according to our god works, and that God looks at our heart. We are then judged accordingly, is what I believe. I also believe that there are spirit levels, as you have asked.
The more you have been a follower of Jesus Christ, and obeyed the commandments would mean you would be at the highest spirit level or world.
Each world is another learning experience, that we then learn what we did not do here on earth while we were here, and we are shown what we must do, from other spirits who teach us. Each spirit would then move on to a higher spirit world, once they hae shown they have done all that was asked of them by God.
This is what I believe in a brief summary. You may think it foolish, but it is my belief that .........................................ye Pope John Paul is indeed in a higher place than we would be, just as he was higher here on earth.

Just a bit of fill in on the popes duties.

The pope has TOTAL CONTROL over the catholic church, or at least that is the intent. He has the power to dictate new rules and regulations for the church, and for the bishops and priests to personally follow.

The pope is a dictator in every sense of the word when it comes to the catholic church. Even though pentecostals will tell you that they are the first christian religion...they are full of it. Christianity in all forms of today is based solely on catholicism whether the people like it or not. The popes of the past have shaped the church. When people go insane like charles parham....or however you spell his name, or they disagree with the original church...which happens often, they split.

Hence, people who do not like the AUTHORITY of the pope take off. The pope has great authority. He also, like the president, knows of everything that goes on with the church. The freeking pope often hires spies to monitor bishops, and even cardinals, making sure they do not disagree with him even in private.

Riley is right. The pope knew of those instances long before everyone else.

The pope is briefed on everything that happens in his church.. and he'd have to be as there have been millions of dollars given in comepensation. The buck stoped with him.

The compensations started long after the Pope has been sick. And the money came from the diocese, NOT the vatican. Again, its the Cardinals responsibility, not the Popes.

That is not very realistic. It only became 'full blown' because it became more public.. but these litagations have been going on for some 20/30 years.

Your confused, the allegastions (some) happened some 20-30 years ago, NOT the litigations.

If a company is in legal trouble it's CEO is guarenteed to know. For the record.. it was only after it became public that he made some sort of apology for it. It would have been impossible for him not to have known the world wide extent and frequency of it much earlier

Not always, my friend. Im not aware of ANY public apology that he made concerning this, although I could be wrong. Also its not a WORLD WIDE problem as you say. It was an American problem, which is how the vatican saw it. A minor American problem. Besides, I think alot of people are coming out now, strictly for financial gain. THey see the huge payouts, and all of the sudden, they start finding "supressed memories" For me, 20 years is a little to long to wait. Just MHO..

Your point was that the pope should get a 'better' heaven [not what heaven is].. my point was his morals have not always been perfect and that someone working in a soup kitchen would have just as much chance as he.

Umm no, again the point is, if heaven is a real place or a state of mind. The pope comment was a side line, unless of course, your clairvoyant and can read MY true intentions.

Riley is right. The pope knew of those instances long before everyone else

BS. This crap was swept under the rug by a handfull of bishops and cardinals, not the pope. You should have something to back up claims like that, or follow it with an "IMHO". Show some respect, will ya

Originally posted by spliff4020
Not always, my friend. Im not aware of ANY public apology that he made concerning this, although I could be wrong.

You are.

Also its not a WORLD WIDE problem as you say. It was an American problem, which is how the vatican saw it. A minor American problem.

Only in America? Wow.. well I guess if you only pay attention to american media you would think that. There have been several public cases in Australia.. a governer general resigned because of one [said a 15 year old girl 'wanted it' from the priest] another nunestary/orpanage where nuns forced young girls to eat their own vomit and feaces. It is EVERYWHERE.. but if you want to stay in denial that is your perogative.

Besides, I think alot of people are coming out now, strictly for financial gain. THey see the huge payouts, and all of the sudden, they start finding "supressed memories" For me, 20 years is a little to long to wait. Just MHO..

Funny how the church prefers cash payouts rather than proving innocence.. so you assume all these people are lieing? No wonder they rarely report it.

Umm no, again the point is, if heaven is a real place or a state of mind. The pope comment was a side line, unless of course, your clairvoyant and can read MY true intentions.

Wow. I guess I must have got a bit confused by the title of this thread.

[edit on 8-4-2005 by riley]