It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

A skeptic asks "Why do you believe aliens have been to Earth?"

page: 1
0
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 10:36 PM
link   
I'd like to start this thread by stating my personal beliefs on the issue of alien life. I think that it is virtually certain that alien life exists 'out there'. However, I most emphatically do not believe any of this life has been to Earth. Since coming to ATS, I have read numerous threads about the various 'races'; greys, draconians, etc. One guy quoted an exact number (something over 200) that was the number of alien species that we are supposedly already in contact with. (he also stated it was a 'well known fact', as I recall)

I personally find the idea of alien life having already been to Earth fascinating, but a little ridiculous, given the absence of proof. I know that several people on this board have seen UFOs, whether terrestrial or extraterrestrial, and that some have even reported seeing actual aliens. I hope that I do not come across as insulting to these people; that is not my goal. My goal is simply to get other viewpoints than my own on this issue.

In particular, I am especially curious as to why people who have never reported a UFO/alien encounter believe in these theories. I can understand those who have seen/thought they saw something believing, but what about those who haven't? What makes those people believe that aliens have been to Earth?

Sometimes on other threads of this nature, where controversial opinions have been expressed, I see it degenerate into a war of words. Please don't do that here (or anywhere else, for that matter) Also try to express opinions as opinions and facts as facts; confusing the two is what seems to lead to these types of fights on boards.

I have an open mind to this sort of thing, but I'm admittedly biased towards there having been no extraterrestrial contact with humans as of yet.

Anyway, enough of my rambling. Let's here what YOU have to say about this. That is, after all, why I started this thread.




posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 05:27 AM
link   

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
I personally find the idea of alien life having already been to Earth fascinating, but a little ridiculous, given the absence of proof.

Ah, but how could you tell if no one is looking?

For example, if I go downstairs and out in my backyard, then turn over a stone, how am I going to know that say the Greeks have ever existed? Or what about dinosaurs? All I see under the rock is a couple of insects and dirt. So I could claim that dinosaurs or the Greeks have never existed. I cant see any evidence of them (note that PROOF rarely exist. EVIDENCE does. For example, there is EVIDENCE of life on Mars, but no PROOF).

But of course, there IS evidence (and most will say proof) on both parts. Why? Because people have been LOOKING for it for centuries now.

Few look for age old alien remains. Those that do are not taken seriously, but guess what: They say they HAVE found evidence, one way or another.

So all you have to do is look and you will always find something. Whether its something that others will believe or not is another matter


[edit on 7-4-2005 by merka]



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 06:29 AM
link   

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
I'd like to start this thread by stating my personal beliefs on the issue of alien life. I think that it is virtually certain that alien life exists 'out there'. However, I most emphatically do not believe any of this life has been to Earth.


I wont read further, this is enough. Go and read something, for start go to amazon and search books with UFO/alien/abductions in title. The whole issue is too complex and too big to be ignored. This phenomena is real and if you are a skeptic that only means you are not informed properly. Take care.



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 07:33 AM
link   
Perhaps instead of telling him to just go read, you could recommend some books to the gentleman? You may not have noticed- hell, it's a well kept secret- but there's quite a few UFO books out there, some based on research and some based on opinion and fiction.

I would ask you are a bit more helpful next time.



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 08:15 AM
link   
If you want proof that aliens have visited earth, then you are in the wrong place my friend. But if you want "evidence" then I'll give you my top 5 peices of evidence...

The recent Mexican Airforce Surveillance tapes
Mexican Airforce to release UFO footage

The obvious Roswell Coverup (brought to us by our resident "Subject Matter Expert" on Roswell, Gazrok
)
The Case for Roswell: Part I.
The Case for Roswell: Part II
The Case for Roswell: Part III (Section A)
The Case for Roswell: Part III (Section B)
The Case for Roswell: Part III (Section C)

The hundreds of eye witness accounts from top ranking military and government officials. Check out the Disclosure Project press conference held in May of 2001 for some decent testimony.
National Press Club Conference

The Pheonix UFO sighting
Most monumental UFO event in recent times?

And last but not least, the millions of alleged eye witness testimony from people all over the globe. Including photo's and videos. Remember, of all the millions of personal accounts, it only takes one real account to make it ALL real.



Editted to add Gazrok's latest edition to his Roswell Collection: The Case for Roswell: Part III (Section C)


[edit on 7-4-2005 by mpeake]



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 08:47 AM
link   
Excellent question.

Why do I believe aliens have visited Earth?

While there is no PROOF of this, what many often ignore is that there is a lot of overwhelming EVIDENCE for it. Many of our most deeply held beliefs and accepted “facts” have actually never been PROVEN, but are supported by evidence…this is really no different. So, with that in mind, I’ll present the EVIDENCE for it.

Some of the earliest evidence is in the form of ancient literature. There are many passages explaining unexplained lights in the sky, and even interaction with these objects. Whether it’s the Bible, Chinese manuscripts, Indian literature, or even historic Greek accounts, such as Alexander’s siege of Tyre, the accounts are numerous indeed. Still, such people were highly superstitious, so perhaps it’s a problem of interpretation, and an ignorance of the facts? Well, it’s possible, but not likely enough to explain ALL the cases where such things are cited and recorded. Still, we’d want more to go on, so we’ll progress through the ages a bit….

Coming into Medieval and Renaissance art, we find some of the first depictions of possible alien craft in the skies. Of course, there are earlier art examples of such artwork, here we see their incorporation in works intended to be realistic, and specifically to capture an event. Some examples of these are below. Sure, one could infer that the craft shown are something else, but their resemblance to modern UFO descriptions is uncanny to say the least.









Moving along into the modern era, this is where things really start to heat up. Increased means of communication leads to more and more stories being shared. Some of the first photographs of UFOs start to appear (decades before becoming a household term, and still way before the phrase “flying saucer” is coined). An example of these early photos is below. Taken in 1929, well before the concept was even in the public eye. See the story below the photo.



Ward Sawmill, SlideWard, Colorado. April, 1929. This incident is re-told by the photographers daughter : This photo was taken by my father Edward Pline at the sawmill in Ward where we lived at the time, I think it was 1929. I was about six years old then. My father was there to photograph the sawmill for some reason or another, and as he was taking the photo, he described a "terrible thunderous bellow," and a large round thing as big as a very large boulder that moved through the air above them. You can see it in the picture.

With WWII, comes numerous reports by both Axis and Allied pilots, of sightings of UFOs. Since the term hasn’t really come into use yet, the term “Foo Fighters” is instead coined. These are trained men, who spend a lot of time in the sky, and yet they report objects which defy all of the “facts” that they know as airmen. During the war, one of the most amazing events in UFOlogy takes place, though you’ll rarely see it in any UFO books or specials. It is detailed well here at ATS by a variety of posters. This is a FACTUAL event, fully documented in the press, and fully acknowledged by the US military. In February of 1942, an unidentified flying object is picked up on radar near LA. Air raid orders go into effect, the city is blacked out, and spotlights light up the sky. Numerous witnesses see a large object which seems invulnerable to the 1400 plus AAA rounds fired at it over the course of almost an hour. Six people on the ground would lose their lives in this action. An even more remarkable item is that the object was fully captured on film by a newspaper reporter for the LA Times, and of course this was front page news in the area. The military’s explanation was admitted guesswork, but because of the time and people’s trust in the military, the incident faded into the annuls of history. Here’s the photo on the front page.



Here’s an old thread of mine on it…
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Just five years later, what many consider the birth of modern UFOs begins. Kenneth Arnold’s famous sighting of 9 objects flying in formation around Mt. Rainier is largely considered the first “modern” sighting by a highly credible witness. Arnold was a respected and experienced pilot and his word carried a lot of weight even for the military. A reporter would later detail Arnold’s description of how they flew, and coin the phrase “flying saucers”. Also this year, 1947, an even more important event would occur…Roswell.

Now, regardless of what a certain recent Jennings special would have you believe, Roswell is no MYTH. Roswell is the “holy grail” of UFOlogy for a reason. We have many pieces of evidence with Roswell, that we simply don’t have with other cases. Evidence like admitted military involvement in a crash retrieval, the US Army admitting to having captured a flying disc (through their own press corps), newspaper headlines proclaiming the recovery, and of course numerous witnesses from average citizens to Army generals, all saying the same thing, that we captured a flying saucer with aliens. So how did such an event stay buried for so long? One need look no further than what happened earlier in 1942 in LA. It’s all a matter of the public trusting the military at the time. If they said it was just a balloon, then no matter how much it flew in the face of the facts, it was a balloon alright. Of course, the Mogul explanation simply fails every test of evidence. If classified at the level of the A-Bomb, why would it be allowed to sit in a field for days on end? How could one of the most top post bases in the Army (the only one at the time housing an Atomic Bomber wing) have incompetent officers? You’d have to believe that if you believe that the senior intelligence officer could somehow be unable to identify balsa wood and tin foil…
Not to mention, the repeated and PROVEN cover-ups that the military has tried to deny, even using projects that didn’t even EXIST at the time, such as Project High Dive to explain the “bodies”. No, this is no myth, but as the first documented retrieval, many mistakes were made, and the paper trail, and witness testimony, such as affidavits from generals, is simply too much to ignore. For more reading on this, I’ll humbly suggest some of my own detailed threads on it… See the evidence for yourself and judge…

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Since Roswell, even more has come to light. Now of course, frauds and quacks abound in this industry, but most are quickly exposed as such. With all of these though, it’s sometimes easy to forget the numerous records of pilots, military officers, policemen, even ex-Presidents who all say the same thing…we are not alone, and we’re being visited. There are reams of government files and memos on the subject, as well as numerous projects devoted to the phenomenon (and not just Bluebook). An interesting note is that all of the Project Bluebook leaders have come out and stated that the project was a coverup, such as Ruppelt and Haynek. It may not be PROVEN, but the overwhelming EVIDENCE points only to this truth. We are not alone, and we are being visited.


[edit on 7-4-2005 by Gazrok]



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 08:50 AM
link   

Originally posted by DeltaNine
Perhaps instead of telling him to just go read, you could recommend some books to the gentleman? You may not have noticed- hell, it's a well kept secret- but there's quite a few UFO books out there, some based on research and some based on opinion and fiction.

I would ask you are a bit more helpful next time.



You are rigth
I would recommend all Timothy Good books. After that I suggest reading Bud Hopkins . Good hunting.


[edit on 7/4/05 by MiTo]

[edit on 7/4/05 by MiTo]



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 09:35 AM
link   
Excellent posts, Gazrok and mpeake. Those two posts sum up a bunch of great research on the UFO phenomenon.

The evidence is quite overwhelming, but the question is: Why don’t we have PROOF yet? With millions of sightings, hundreds of crashes, and thousands of pictures, why is there not one piece of evidence that I can hold in my hand, and say, “There is no doubt now!”



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 09:45 AM
link   


The evidence is quite overwhelming, but the question is: Why don’t we have PROOF yet? With millions of sightings, hundreds of crashes, and thousands of pictures, why is there not one piece of evidence that I can hold in my hand, and say, “There is no doubt now!”


The answer is remarkably simple.

Why don't you have some plutonium samples you can hold in your hand and say, "There is no doubt now!"???

The answer to that question is the same for your original question. Such materials are of course highly classified, and just as the military would pursue any option to regain privately obtained plutonium, something like alien debris or biology would be pursued with the same determination and success.



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 09:48 AM
link   


why is there not one piece of evidence that I can hold in my hand, and say, “There is no doubt now!”


That's the million dollar question (or perhaps mutiple million depending on who you sell it to
)

According to military and government contractor personal testimony, such hand held evidence exists, but the general public will never see it. And let's say that someone publicly claims they have a peice of a ufo from a crash in their back yard or something, would you beleive them? I bet you could find such things on ebay right now? would you buy one for the $50 bidding price? Bottom line is, that kind of evidence may well exist, but inthis day and age, who is gonna beleive them?



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 09:51 AM
link   
Gaz, are you reading my mind...I think we are posting from the same intergalactic thought pool today


[edit on 7-4-2005 by mpeake]



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 09:57 AM
link   


Gaz, are you reading my mind...I think we are posting from the same intergalactic thought pool today


Seems to be so...
Well, going to lunch now, so we can avoid this...



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 10:31 AM
link   

Originally posted by Gazrok
Such materials are of course highly classified, and just as the military would pursue any option to regain privately obtained plutonium, something like alien debris or biology would be pursued with the same determination and success.


Yes, I agree that most governments would want this evidence covered up, so that they could work on it without the public’s or another country’s scrutiny. But not all governments in the world are as powerful and determined as ours. Why has there been no hard evidence (like crash debris) from South America, Africa, or Canada?

I’m just playing devil’s advocate here, but if I wanted to play with plutonium, I could earn a doctorate in nuclear physics and go to work for one of the companies that use it, or make it. Heck, I could become a freighter captain or a truck driver and transport it.

I just do not understand how actual alien crash debris could be hidden from the mainstream so effectively, and for so many years. It seems to me that some country would have tried to sell or trade some of this stuff, just like they try to sell uranium, plutonium, and other highly coveted material.

This is a real question for me. We apparently cannot stop the sale or theft of those materials, so how could anyone believe that we could prevent the sale, theft, or even disclosure of real “hard evidence” of alien existence?


Originally posted by mpeake
According to military and government contractor personal testimony, such hand held evidence exists, but the general public will never see it.


Is there a good source for reading these testimonies? I have read the Roswell stuff (even been there; have t-shirt, etc.), and most of the Project Disclosure testimonies. I was just wondering if someone has done some research on the debris side of things, to put it all in a single source. I am interested, and thanks.



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 10:40 AM
link   
Why would aliens want to visit Earth? First of all, let me start out by saying I believe we have been visited by beings from other worlds. The question is why. Now I do believe that some UFO's you see are man made. Most likely by the government. The other are flown by aliens from other planets. So why would aliens want to visit Earth? Consider these points. They could be visiting for one of the following reasons:

1. Military
2. Spiritual
3. Economic
4. Molevalent
5. Enviromental
6. Education

They could be here for many reason. Maybe they're worried about what we're doing to our atmosphere or that we're headed into an apocolypse the way we're constantly fighting war with one another. Or maybe they're here to study us to better understand how we live. Finally, maybe they're here to take over the planet which I'm sure that's not going to happen.



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 10:49 AM
link   

Originally posted by NoPhobos

Originally posted by mpeake
According to military and government contractor personal testimony, such hand held evidence exists, but the general public will never see it.


Is there a good source for reading these testimonies? I have read the Roswell stuff (even been there; have t-shirt, etc.), and most of the Project Disclosure testimonies. I was just wondering if someone has done some research on the debris side of things, to put it all in a single source. I am interested, and thanks.


Here is a decent site that lists specific military ufo testimony.
The Military Related UFO



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 03:04 PM
link   

Originally posted by NoPhobos


Yes, I agree that most governments would want this evidence covered up, so that they could work on it without the public’s or another country’s scrutiny. But not all governments in the world are as powerful and determined as ours. Why has there been no hard evidence (like crash debris) from South America, Africa, or Canada?

I’m just playing devil’s advocate here, but if I wanted to play with plutonium, I could earn a doctorate in nuclear physics and go to work for one of the companies that use it, or make it. Heck, I could become a freighter captain or a truck driver and transport it.

I just do not understand how actual alien crash debris could be hidden from the mainstream so effectively, and for so many years. It seems to me that some country would have tried to sell or trade some of this stuff, just like they try to sell uranium, plutonium, and other highly coveted material.

This is a real question for me. We apparently cannot stop the sale or theft of those materials, so how could anyone believe that we could prevent the sale, theft, or even disclosure of real “hard evidence” of alien existence?
.


Because plutonium can be recreated by known physics, and believe me, alien technology is kept FAR more concealed and classified than any of our nuclear programs. It is very possible that our govornment could easily conceal every scrap of alien technology, and keep such a tight security control over it that it would never leak out unbidden.

However, we do see what I believe are examples of alien technology in things like stealth craft, lasers, superconductors, ect. Technologies we have gleaned from the craft.

There are reports of alien craft landing or crashing in other countries, like Russia and Brazil, by the way.



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 08:11 PM
link   
Hmm, you all make some good points. I suppose that the distinction between PROOF and EVIDENCE is one that I hadn't really considered, at least consciously. To me, PROOF would be something indisputable, like a delegation of Greys arriving at the UN or some other event that even the most die hard critic could not deny. EVIDENCE I would define as something that points in the direction of a particular conclusion (in this case, whether alien life has been to Earth or not) but is not 100% conclusive. Things like UFO pics would be in this category, as they could be genuine alien craft, or just airplanes, or fakes, or whatever. Under those definitions (which previous posters seem to share) then we have lots of EVIDENCE but no PROOF (or none that the average person can get ahold of)

NoPhobos brings up an interesting point when he mentions that the US

apparently cannot stop the sale or theft of those materials, so how could anyone believe that we could prevent the sale, theft, or even disclosure of real “hard evidence” of alien existence?
Look at the atomic bomb, for example. The Russians managed to steal it and make their own bomb by August 1949, in an era where the knowledge of the bomb's workings was extremely top secret, and not part of university physics like it is today. It seems unlikely (although by no means impossible) that the US could have managed to hold on to alien tech when they let slip their greatest weapon to their greatest enemy at the time.

I'd also like to make special mention of Gazrok's first post with all the pics. With the exception of the 1929 pic (which I believe is too blurry to consider) these are very interesting, indeed. The context of those paintings does not readily lend itself to including those UFO-like objects, and so the artists must have had a very good reason for including them. (i.e. that is what they saw in the sky, alien craft or not) I find the 1942 pic particularly interesting. It is almost certainly a legitimate photo, and defies any simple explanation. When I get a chance, probably not for a few weeks, due to university finals, I plan to read a bunch of stuff about ufology; hopefully I can get some of the materials suggested.

In response to merka's comments on evidence and proof:
If I want to see dinosaur bones, I can go to a museum and find fully assembled skeletons of dinosaurs (I live in Alberta where we have lots of dino bones) I consider that 'proof' that dinosaurs existed. If I want to see whether ancient Greeks existed, I can find pottery and writings they produced. Archaeological ruins abound in Greece, proving people were there at the time. But, I cannot go to a museum and find an alien spacecraft, or see alien bones, or see alien artifacts. That certainly doesn't mean there aren't aliens visiting us, but it does mean that it cannot be stated as fact, only possibility, however strong or weak.

I'm going to go through that link mpeake provided about military testimony. Hopefully it contains reliable testimony, since any reports I have ever seen have been by people who are completely uncredible. I'll post again after looking through those.



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 09:37 PM
link   
Just to weigh in with my own observation;
I think they have been to earth simply because of an acumulation of circumstantial and anectdotal evidence.
People throughout history have been seeing and experiencing something.
I, myself, never have.



posted on Apr, 8 2005 @ 08:18 AM
link   

Originally posted by freddieb
Just to weigh in with my own observation;
I think they have been to earth simply because of an acumulation of circumstantial and anectdotal evidence.
People throughout history have been seeing and experiencing something.
I, myself, never have.


Not that you know of



posted on Apr, 8 2005 @ 10:49 AM
link   
I think I would add the Belgium Triangle encounter to the list. JUst the actual Radar Lock On footage is convincing enough to say strange craft are out there.



new topics

top topics



 
0
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join