Americas Brutal Prisons

Please go to this web site and watch this.
I wonder what would of happened if this video was about iran?
www.informationclearinghouse.info...

the same as your response plus its not widespread or sanctioned here but it is in iran.

You mean murderers, bank robbers, gang bangers, child molesters and crooks are being tortured in American prisons?

GOOD!!!! Let em have it!!! Prison should be a living Hell. Their more like country-clubs these days with librarys, gyms, color TV, 3 hot meals a day etc etc.....these scum should sleep in tents in the middle of a field.


Max

I watched a few minutes of the video. It sounds like someone may want to investigate problems where inmates are getting chemically burned with gases sprayed into the cells. That sounds like unusual punishment to me.

On the other hand I remember seeing on the news a few years ago some foreign officials inspecting prisons here in the US. They said if they had prisons with the same living conditions as what is offered here, their crime rate would go up. The common perception here in the US of our prisons is that prisoners have it easy with air conditioned cells and tv in public areas. I've heard of many jails even having work out and weight lifting areas. The more you hear of some jails, the more it sounds like a vacation resort rather than a jail. Of course the film above makes you wonder if there might be a hidden system wide problem of vigilante prison guards using gas to chemically burn inmates who swear or get out of line. I believe the film is probably bias but I just don't know and didn't watch it all.

Ha! American prisoners have got it made! 3 nutritious meals, plus snacks, a day, a clean bed to sleep in, clean clothes and an enviromentally-controlled atmosphere.

On top of this: health-care, television, a chance to get an education. They've got access to more than the average citizen that's not in prison.

Brutal my butt! An American prisoner couldn't last 3 nights in any foriegn prison.

Not a pretty picture but you can thank the "tough on crime" era for abuses such as this. Thanks to the tough on crime propaganda saturation a nonemotional logical perspective on prison abuse has been impossible to achieve in America. You bring it up to the average american and they say that because they are prisoners they deserve it and they should have thought of that before they broke the law.

Whenever an attempt at prison reform has been made it gets shouted down by politicians eager to appear tough on crime and to not appear to be supporting criminals. Thanks to a certain political element in America that shall remain nameless actually appearing to care about the rights of prisoners became an act of political suicide.

Only recently with the passing of the "Tough on Crime" hysteria has serious discussion of prison conditions been possible. Notice how prison rape has been a part of american culture for decades appearing in countless jokes and skits in countless movies and tv shows. Its almost been accepted as a fact of life in America that anyone not in fighting shape will become someones "bitch" in jail. Yet it was only in 2003 that a serious preventative step was taken with the passing of the Prison Rape Elimination Act.

The fact of the matter is that prisoner abuse is widespread in America and the American populace have sanctioned it through the tacit approval of silence and acceptance. We allow it because we feel they deserve it.

While i believe that if you do the crime you should do the time, I remember a couple years ago reading an article about a State Prison out in california , where not only would they Make incoming prisoners stand barefoot on hot asphalt , but the more disliked prisoners would purposely get put in a cell with someone Bigger than them who would Rape them. I don't know about you , but some kid jacking a stereo out of a car doesn't Deserve to get raped.

You have voted persian for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

[edit on 6-4-2005 by bordnlazy]

Anyone ever read Starship troopers? In one part he talks about punishment for crimes...and if a child committed a crime, His father would be whipped right besides him.

Maybe thats not such a bad idea.

Maximu§

[edit on 123030p://444 by LA_Maximus]

they Make incoming prisoners stand barefoot on hot asphalt

Aw, those poor prisoners.

the more disliked prisoners would purposely get put in a cell with someone Bigger than them who would Rape them. I don't know about you , but some kid jacking a stereo out of a car doesn't Deserve to get raped.

Maybe if they respected other peoples property in the first place they wouldn't have to worry about being violated.

Originally posted by Intelearthling
Ha! American prisoners have got it made! 3 nutritious meals, plus snacks, a day, a clean bed to sleep in, clean clothes and an enviromentally-controlled atmosphere.

On top of this: health-care, television, a chance to get an education. They've got access to more than the average citizen that's not in prison.

Brutal my butt! An American prisoner couldn't last 3 nights in any foriegn prison.

Throw in brutal gangs, entrenched racism, sexual slavery, corrupt guards, and a public that believes that because we feed them they have it easy. What are you suggesting we shouldn't feed them, and that they shouldnt be offered medical care? That because they have a laundry room they live the sweet life. I suppose one TV hanging from the wall in a corner is the makings of the Taj Mahal in your opinion.

I dont know if you realize this but alot of the things you mention as being "perks" are common sense. Hmm which sounds better from the perspective of someone running a prison? A prison full of stinking dirty diseased prisoners driven half mad through heat stroke ready to kill you at a moments notice just for the slightest hint of freedom or a prison where the prisoners are kept disease free (prevents guard exposure to such nasty diseases as cholera and dysentery) temperature regulated (every one knows incidents of violence become more common during high temperature extremes) and are kept distracted (less likely to plot to kill you)?

The reason these foreign prisons are so rough isnt because they are more enlightened in prisoner containment then we are its because the countries are dirt poor and corrupt so they cant afford to run a secure prison. I can't believe third world countries are being held up as the beacons of enlightenment here.

By the way some of you seem to be advocating concentration camps in my opinion. They were the epitome of an instutition designed to be hell on earth for the incarcerated. Call me liberal but I kind of think gulags arent really the best examples of justice at it's finest.

I think the people advocating prisoner violation might want take a quick look at a little document I like to call the US Constitution. More specifically the eighth ammendment contained therein.

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

If rape isnt cruel and unusual I dont know what is. Its funny how we look down upon Islamic societies where rape is doled out as punishment yet we approve of it in our legal system. Ah well thats hypocrisy for you...

[edit on 6-4-2005 by boogyman]

Originally posted by Skibum

they Make incoming prisoners stand barefoot on hot asphalt

Aw, those poor prisoners.

the more disliked prisoners would purposely get put in a cell with someone Bigger than them who would Rape them. I don't know about you , but some kid jacking a stereo out of a car doesn't Deserve to get raped.

Maybe if they respected other peoples property in the first place they wouldn't have to worry about being violated.

So your advocating rape? does rape seem okay if it happens to somebody you don't like? Ask a Rape victim if they would wish that on somebody else?

I've got nothing against prisoners being used for manual labor, I've got nothing against Having their own rights being taken away. BUT i do have something against Sadistic Guards Enjoying themselves while they torture prisoners. It's not their place. Its not the guards right. WTF does it teach these guys that believe the system is against them? do you think it will set them straight? They'll come out and be scared to do harm on others? HOw many abusing parent where abused by their own parents? Guards have a right to protect themselves against prisoners but not to cause them 3rd degree chemical burns. Geez people.

boogyman, what about a serial rapiest getting raped in jail? Is'nt that justice of some sort?

I think it is.


Max

and people wonder why criminals are as violent as they are here. instead of reabilitating prisoners they are just made a lot meaner than when they went in. I do think physical force and intimidation should be used and fear should be instill in prisoner, but there are a lot of places where the gaurds are not that far off from some of the worst of the worst they are supposed to be watching. All the violence and abuses that goes on in the prison affects the guards as well as the prisonners, the same way criminals are being brutalized into harder and more vicious animals the guards are being affected by the same proccess.

I'm sure that a good number of these brutality cases are provacted by the prisoners(if somebody trew feces at me or tried to cut me I would feed them a live to a starving pig will dull teath) but a large part of the documentary was shot in county jails where your not even sure if these people are guilty of anything for the above poster that seem to encourage this sort of behavior. Any one of us could end up there for a night or 2 for any reason, a lilttle too much to drink somewhere, argued with your wife or girlfriend ( you know if the cops show up she aint' going to jail 99.9% of the time, lol), prostesting, ect. and once ur inside all u have to do is tick someone off and they can do what ever they want to you. If a guard doesn't like you for any reason, could be your skin, the way you talk, being too preppy, anything can set them off against you and ur F'ed. This being a conspiracy site should give people a certain idea of how getting on the wrong side of the government or officials could land you in jail. and like many recent figures have shown a large portion of people in jail are in there for minor (self use) drug offences and other smaller crimes. having a clean house gives you a lot more authority to speak on other peoples houses (human rights, moral high ground, ect...)

You probably never really understood about prison but they go after the little skinny off balance (not used to dealing with that type of situation) sort when they rape someone, they have their own separate brand of justice for rapist and the sort. They may be criminals but they're not stupid, if u want to get off are u really going to go after a big harderned(not sure if I got it right) straight criminal?

Cruel, But Hardly Unusual

When topics like this come up, I like to cite Amnesty International, because they not only provide some much-needed perspective on the topic, but can't credibly be considered a “pro-U.S.” organization.

What you find when you peruse AI's annals is that abuse in prisons is not only common, but de rigeur for pretty much every country in the world.

And no, not just the U.S., Turkey, China or third-world countries, but all countries. Unless you consider England, France, Germany, Italy, Greece, Spain, Japan, Australia, etc. etc. to be “third-world countries”.

Prison abuse is as widespread as imprisonment.

If anyone would like to put forth the name of a country where prison abuse doesn't take place, I'd be interesting in seeing it, because I haven't found a single one to date, and I have been looking.

So to imply that prison abuse is a “U.S.-only” problem would be just plain dishonest.

The View From Here

Here in the U.S., I have known some people who have done time in county jails as well as graduates of state and federal prisons, in addition to some law enforcement officials and a couple of prison guards.

While I am happy to have never been arrested or convicted of any crimes myself, I do believe I have, over the years, gained some insights on the subject.

The first of these is the awareness that conditions vary widely from place to place, whether jail or prison. Some of them are nicer places than others. Some are genuine hell pits, and are maintained deliberately as such.

Want to “scare someone straight”? Just say “Attica” or “Leavenworth” or “Pelican Bay”.

People on both sides of the bars are aware of the variability of confinement conditions, and it figures prominently in determining where offenders are sent when convicted, or transferred to if they are considered troublesome.

Not All Like Abu Ghraib

If all U.S. prisons were really as horrible as some claim, we could reasonably expect a very low incidence of repeat criminal offenses. Mysteriously -- or perhaps not so mysteriously, if we choose to look at the facts -- we see exactly the opposite.

Most (but certainly not all) jails and minimum security prisons in the U.S. are so pleasant compared to life on the “outside” that vast numbers of criminals deliberately commit repeat offenses of various relatively petty crimes so they can stay in the “system”, which, for many people who are mentally ill, emotionally disturbed or otherwise “life challenged”, is preferable to having to deal with the “real world”.

After all, in prison, all the decisions are made for you, you get “three squares a day” and free medical and dental care, there's not much else to do but read, play games, watch TV and body-build, and if you don't cause trouble, life can be a lot better than living on the streets and trying to get a job as an ex-con.

So there's that element of the issue. There are, of course, several more, and it's not a simple subject at all

Libraries of books on criminology and penology exist, and are being expanded upon exponentially as the “prison business” explodes in the U.S., making us “Number One” in imprisonment worldwide.

Go U.S.A.

My Point

Anyway, I advise against allowing a video of some instance of abuse or another shape anyone's opinions on this topic, because the subject is far too broad to be rationally addressed in such a narrow manner.

It's a big issue, and it's not limited to one prison, or one country. In some places, it's not nearly as bad as advertised, while in others, it is far worse than anyone might ever want to imagine.

Prisoner abuse is a worldwide phenomenon, and it won't be going away anytime soon -- especially if awareness of the problem is limited to a sequence of narrowly-defined scandals du jour.

At least, that's how I see it.




[edit on 4/7/2005 by Majic]

My brother is a corrections officer at a prison here in Missouri...while the video was rather disturbing,it doesn't show the abuse that the guards are subjected to.My brother has lost a few of his fellow guards and friends from prisoners attacking them.I don't condone abuse of anyone but if you kill or rape someone should I feel bad for you because you have to deal with some abuse?Do you think that same killer felt bad for the abuse they caused their victim? Some of the stories that my brother and his friends have told me sometimes it seems this is the only way to keep the prisoners in line.These prisoners will masturbate and throw their semen at the guards!They defecate in their hands and fling it t the guards like monkeys!At any given chance these criminals will attack the guards and kill them if they can.Some of the things that were shown on that video could have(COULD HAVE) been a retaliation against a prisoner doing something to a guard.Two more guards at the same prison were beaten almost to death by 26 inmates.one of those guards was beaten with his own radio and the only reason the prisoners stopped was because they thought he was dead.

Remember these people are not your friendly old man neighbor that sits out on his front porch an waves when you go by.If anything I would say the abuse would help to deter someone from committing a crime to end up in prison.

And BTW prison rape doesn't happen as often as you might think...there are plenty of prisoners that are gay or bi that are more than willing to um...help out.

just my 2 cents

Simon

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
boogyman, what about a serial rapiest getting raped in jail? Is'nt that justice of some sort?

I think it is.


Max

Its usually the serial rapists doing the raping in prison. If your willing to repeatedly rape people in prison why wouldnt you repeatedly rape people in free society and vice versa. Besides we're not talking about justice of a sort we're talking about legal justice. This isnt the jungle we have laws here and those shouldnt be suspended just because you've been convicted of a crime.

Ok lets take a moment to clear the air.

I believe that many people in prison are little better then animals and for many it is too late to make a difference for the better. Its not them Im concerned about, its the young punk who gets thrown in with those animals and either becomes a predator as well or just winds up as prey for the animals. Its the hardened criminal who never believed he could be anything else because its all he's ever known and is scared to change for fear of being percieved weak. I refuse to right off people as lost causes.

Ive known criminals and Ive known people who have been in prison and despite what the TV tells you a lot of them are people no different then you or me. "There but for the grace of god go I" is a very relevant quote. It doesnt matter if your politics are left or right we can all agree the justice system is flawed. Whether its because of a racist police force or a stupid "liberal" law we all know good people can and do wind up in prison with the animals. Overtime a good man can turn wicked if the circumstances are right. If its a choice between destruction and doing something against your principles I'm positive for most of you morals will fall by the way side.

Its a slippery slope you go to jail for a minor crime you get intimidated by another inmate you defend yourself, you get punished. They keep coming for you and all of a sudden you've killed a man in self defence. It was that or the unspeakable but it doesnt matter. You've killed a man. It was self defence but the guards dont care to them your just another animal. You get more time tacked onto your sentence, more time with the animals. Now you've made enemies because the man you killed had friends. So you have to become even harder you make friends of your own to survive. The free world is a distant memory know all that matters is your current reality which is hell on earth. Before you know it your know different then the rest of the animals. Even if you do get out prison your now a convict. An animal in the eyes of society no longer fit to partake in the American dream.

Do we really want to perpetuate a system that forces choices like that? Do we really want a system that thinks only of retribution and leaves no room for redemption? A system where the strong prey on the weak in a vicious cycle of destruction. A system where the wicked prosper from their strength and the moral are crushed by their weakness. Should that be the goal of a moral society?

I think there should always be room for redemption no matter how vicious the criminal. Most will be unwilling to make the choice to change their ways but those who are willing should be given the opportunity.

And BTW prison rape doesn't happen as often as you might think...there are plenty of prisoners that are gay or bi that are more than willing to um...help out.

I get suspicious whenever people say that for the simple fact that I've heard too many stories where a man who was brutally beat and raped makes a report and request protection only to have his beating dismissed as a "lover quarrel". The guards send him back to his cell where his cellmate surprise surprise rapes him again and beats him even worse for snitching.

Im not blaming the guards Im just saying that people develop insulation techniques. The guards deal with too much BS all day long to concern themselves with every little complaint a prisoner makes. They know that all the other prisoners are going to lie to corroborate the rapists story and its the victims word against the rapists. Its easier to just dismiss these things and go along with the word of the rapist and his friends then it is to get involved in all the paperwork required in correcting such a situation because they know they're only going to have to deal with the exact same situation tommorow as well. Besides just because a man is gay doesnt mean he cant be raped in prison and shouldnt be afforded the protections provided under law.

The idea of redemption in the prison system is dead. Prisons serve to mitigate damage to society and to punish the anti-social. Now, I don't disagree with this. I think men who commit crimes against society need to be kept away from society. I prefer exile, but the world is simply too crowded, there's few places left to put the hardened criminal besides in a box.

I think the tactic of using threat of rape to dissuade crime is criminal - it's unethical, and it's got to stop (no sane, rational society would do such a thing). The message on the street in many places, especially suburbia is; don't mess up or you'll go to jail and get raped. That's called using threat of abuse to influence the behavior of citizens, and it's very much illegal and immoral. I think rape in prison is all too common, and little is done to report it or put a stop to it. This sort of punishment is encouraged by many citizens who believe they will never have to be subjected to it because they abide by the law. What they don't think about is the fact that the law keeps getting more and more restrictive, and the offenders are stuffed in closer and closer quarters.

It's all fine and well to condemn millions, as long as they're not like you, is that it? Of course it is. That's the crux of the issue. We, as a society, have to decide if ethics are important or not. If they are, we need to do a 180 on prisons. If they're not, well..open up the camps and brew some coffee, we're in for a long, exhausting genocide.

I've studied prisons, back when I was a CJ student, and I know firsthand from visitations, relationships with guards and prisoners, and interviews from both sides of the fence - jail is not a fun place to be. AIDS is a HUGE problem, rape is similarly bad, drugs are everywhere and brought in by the guards themselves - these issues contribute to recidivism, and are counterproductive from a societal standpoint. Yes, many prisons have educational resources and a television (at least in the common area if not in the individual cells), but three meals, books, and television does not a utopia make.

Prisons are overcrowed, understaffed, suffer from crumbling infrastructure in many states, and are by and large ignored by average citizens. Just because someone commits a crime does not mean we need to send them to be raped, beated, mutilated, humiliated, and eventually killed or released back into society with a grudge.

It's a bad system, plain and simple. No other country is immune to these problems. Try a Chinese jail on for size, or an Indonesian one, or a Phillipino, or a Russian jail - they're not pleasant either. They suffer from ALL the same problems to varying degrees.

But I'm most concered with US jails, because I'm a US citizen, and the operations of the justice system are my business as such.

I would support mandatory solitary confinement, delivered meals instead of caffeteria style dining, and video surveillance of guards at all times. That would largely eliminate the problems of rape, drugs, and abuse.

So why isn't it done? Because we can't afford to incarcerate as many people as we do.

So let's incarcerate fewer people, and start by releasing all non-violent offenders. If you don't hurt someone, you don't belong in prison - pure and simple. Prison is the place you put people who don't act like people; men and women who are so savage and insane they cannot interact safely with their fellow citizens. That's what prisons are for. Unfortunately they're being used as holding pens for all sorts of people deemed 'unsavory' by your beloved governors and masters.

House arrest and various fines/community service for all other offenses.

And I think the US government owes an apology and compensation to all drug offenders. It's simply not right what's being done to them.

How can any sane individual condone incarceration (with all attendant horrors) for the personal decision of a citizen as to what they put in their body? Obviously DUI is a crime, but use/possession/sale of narcotics? Why is that any different than pharmaceutical salesmen or liquor store clerks or gas station attendants? They're not different, but weak minded people have been led to believe they somehow are.

I too feel child molesters and rapists would do well to get raped - but that can't be sanctioned punishment in a system that calls itself Justice. Life incarceration or the death penalty works better to protect society, and has none of the attendant ethical concerns. If a man is found guilty of rape or murder, after a FAIR trial and all appropriate appeals, they deserve to be put in a box until they die - or just murdered outright to save the expense of incarceration (same effect).

In closing, I don't believe the system has the power to reform prisoners, it never has. Prisoners have the ability to reform themselves, and given the opportunity many do. Religion is a crutch in these affairs, but I'm not even going to go there right now. The fundamental question we have to ask ourselves is, is the cure worse than the disease? What message are we sending to the world by allowing this sort of injustice to continue? How do we pretend to have any credibility when we clearly have broken every goddamn pane of glass in our ideologically pristine house, because of a fanatical rock throwing habit? That's why 2/3 of the world hates America, because we've always been a hypocritical nation - don't forget our heritage. It's never too late to change, but we can't pretend things work the way they are - or change becomes undesirable.

Boogeyman...yes just because a man is gay he can still be raped...I'm just saying it doesn't happen as often as many people make it out to be.It's blown up more as a scare tactic more or less,by saying if you do something bad then you'll go to prison and Bubba will make you his girlfriend.At the prison my brother works at rape charges are taken seriously and the rape victim is put into protective custody during the investigation.But yes as you said many times it's the victims word against the rapist and his friends.After the investigation the victim can decide to either be put back into general population or stay in protective custody(the hole or solitary confinement).But I agree with you 100% about someone that could be there for only theft or drugs..by the time they get out..if they get out they are a completely different person because of the things they had to do inside.I've often wondered how a person can possibly reform or become a "model citizen"when they are thrown into that type of environment.perhaps the reason most people find god in prison is because they pray for someone to take them away from the hell they're in.I think it is totally irresponsible of our prison systems to put someone that was sent to prison for having something as petty as drugs(i'm not talking major traffickers or dealers)and put them in the same housing unit or cellblock as a serial rapist or murderer.The only thing that will happen to that individual is they will become the same thing they are housed with.What other choice do they have?Either become a killer or be killed?


Taken from WyrdeOne's post:

So let's incarcerate fewer people, and start by releasing all non-violent offenders. If you don't hurt someone, you don't belong in prison - pure and simple. Prison is the place you put people who don't act like people; men and women who are so savage and insane they cannot interact safely with their fellow citizens. That's what prisons are for. Unfortunately they're being used as holding pens for all sorts of people deemed 'unsavory' by your beloved governors and masters.

House arrest and various fines/community service for all other offenses.

And I think the US government owes an apology and compensation to all drug offenders. It's simply not right what's being done to them.

Well said WO



After reading your whole post WyrdeOne it seems we have similar views on this.

[edit on 7-4-2005 by Simon_Boudreaux]