Big Brother has been in your Car for years...and you didn't even know

Do cars really need an information 'black box'?
Monday, April 04, 2005

So-called "black boxes" for passenger cars are rare, but are becoming less so all the time. That concerns a North Dakota state senator who wants to banish Big Brother from the backseat by banning computer chips that collects information on speed and seat-belt usage in the vehicle.

While most cars on the road today don't have black boxes, most vehicles now being manufactured do, according to the National Highway Transportation Administration. What is disturbing, state Sen. Ray Holmberg frets, is that the vast majority of drivers have no idea they are there or that what's recorded might be used against them, "and there's no sort of regulation about who owns that information."

It's a privacy issue. Mr. Holmberg, a Republican from Grand Forks, bought a new car equipped with a black box that he was not told about. He is sponsoring a bill to require buyers to be told if their vehicle is so equipped with a black box. The measure would also forbid use of its data in court without a court order. Subscription services such as OnStar that track a vehicle's location would be exempt.
www.post-gazette.com...

Not surprisingly, Insurance companies encourage the construction of Black Boxes within all vehicles in order to gain more information about the driver’s habits and tendencies. How could this technology be placed into our cars without us even being informed of its devious possibilities? In the age of 'The Patriot Act' these infringements on our freedom are all the more common, and all the more accepted.

Many of the "black boxes" do have very useful purposes. For instance my office is working on a device to monitor the placement of hands on the steering wheel. Using this information along with any other data recorded by other devices, insurance companies can determine the cause of an accident with far greater accuracy. If Jenny Bimblondebo was too busy jabbering away on her cellphone to notice the granny idling at the green light ahead of her, the sensor would have recorded that she had one hand (or none) on the wheel, increasing her likelihood of fault.

Almost everything created has a possible malicious purpose, that doesn't mean it has or will be implemented as such.

nah.....i dont like the thought of this.....i hate the 'big brother' thing.....people are just people...let them have a life...we monitor all the stupid things and not enough serious stuff......insurance companys using this data will only promote long super expensive court cases.....heavily monitor child abusers,dangerous criminals and sex offenders...keep the focus on really bad things...not wether or not mr jones had two hands on the wheel when he bumped mrs smith at the lights.

Did somebody heard in the news that the rental cars were already cashing out on their black boxes on their cars? they were charging over a hundred dollars extra for drivers that where speeding.

But they were force to reimbursed the extra charges.

HARTFORD, Conn. (AP) -- The state Supreme Court on Monday upheld Connecticut's ban on a car rental company's use of a global positioning satellite system to track customers and fine them $150 for speeding.

wireservice.wired.com...



[edit on 7-4-2005 by marg6043]

will the black boxes be connected to the GPS and can they transmit data on the fly? If that is the case then I'm sure people can be tracked more easily by the government.
Why would you want privacy in your car any way, its not like it can record voice or picture is it? Just what speed you drive at and how you drive I think.

Originally posted by marg6043
Did somebody heard in the news that the rental cars were already cashing out on their black boxes on their cars? they were charging over a hundred dollars extra for drivers that where speeding.

But they were force to reimbursed the extra charges.

Yea I heard about that a few days ago which is immoral is the business/customer sense but acceptable and aligns itself with corporate ethics. The pathological pursuit of power by the corporation is influencing governmental entities to further the production of these blackboxes not only to keep tabs on their people but so that The Corporation (who have a close symbiotic relationship with the government) can return a profit from the mistakes of their customers.

[edit on 4/7/2005 by Simulacra]

Originally posted by apc
Almost everything created has a possible malicious purpose, that doesn't mean it has or will be implemented as such.

Regardless, the customer should be informed that a black box is equipped in their car, it's a clear invasion of privacy. If someone installed a video camera in my house capturing my every move...I would like to know about it.

Here's my prediction, in the next few months the FBI are going to use the results of black boxes in cars to detain their first 'terrorist/criminal' suspect under the guidelines of the patriot act. The FBI has already sought to expand their power without any checks, this is just another method of them enforcing their rule on the people.

I agree Simulacra, we are living in a corporate world dominated society, but I wonder if more of our new vehicles are equip with it, are we going to see and increased on speed fines in the mail and insurance rates.

You know that now Insurance on car are mandatory or you will get fine and eventually lost your license.

How about health insurance and life insurance, all of them will gain from this black boxes and the GPS system.

Originally posted by marg6043
speed fines in the mail

Here in Toledo OH, we have the cameras at intersections, they issue speeding tickets, that are mailed to the offenders homes... however, recently there are more and more people not paying the tickets and there's nothing that the local courts can do about it...

The tickets that are received are not from local law enforcement, they're from the company who operates the camera systems... Cool Huh ?


On another note, I drive a 2003 model car, how can I find out if I have a "black box" in my car ?

Originally posted by elevatedone
On another note, I drive a 2003 model car, how can I find out if I have a "black box" in my car ?

I guess the best will be to call up your manufacture and insist that they tell you, it would be illegal if they tried to withhold that pertinent information from you.

Originally posted by Simulacra
The pathological pursuit of power by the corporation is influencing governmental entities to further the production of these blackboxes not only to keep tabs on their people but so that The Corporation (who have a close symbiotic relationship with the government) can return a profit from the mistakes of their customers.

If they profit from their mistakes; I mean mistakes in design that caused car crashes, then it is a good feature IMHO. Also the black boxes are a free addition so it is purely the companies endeavor to provide better service to its customer. IMHO it would reduce the time take in the court room to find a verdict and also help to bring out the truth about how one drives. I feel that only people who have something to hide need to be scared about the device.
Also check this out:
The information the black boxes record includes:

* the car's speed;
* the engine's speed;
* whether the brakes are applied;
* the position of the gas pedal.
It also records other information, such as whether the driver was wearing a seatbelt and the force of the collision.
Here is a pic of what to search for in your car!

If you want to find out if your car has a black-box then go here and scroll to the end of the page. Here are some more pics of black-boxes.


Black-boxes

[edit on 7-4-2005 by IAF101]

yeah.... good Idea Sim... I think I'll do that.

Actually, I'll have my salesman also try to find out, I bought a 2003 Grand Am GT, it's a 30th anniversary edition and he's supposed to call and find out what # mine is.. They only made so many of them.

thanks again....

Every major vehicle today has an ECm (electronic Control Module). This records engine serial number, maximum speed limit, idle, trans ratios, etc. It also records at what speed you were driving, and for how long, with the time of day.

At my work, we use this information everyday. Customers come in, having problems with their trucks. We plug into the truck, to read the codes from the ECM. It is a much faster method to diagnose a problem than tearing the whole engine apart to troubleshoot. If someone gets a certain code, say, cylinder #5 not functioning, then we know that an injector is bad, or the piston needs to be replaced.

More cost effective for the customer in the long run.

Now, one thing is to used the boxes for one thing and having another side effect from them.

Since 1998 Progressive insurance has been doing a test with the tracking devices that can add to the amount of money you pay for can insurances in the future, they claim that is for the good of drivers because it will target the ones that "are good".

Beware, as more newer cars are equip with these new technologies, so more of our privacy is tamper with.

www.washingtonpost.com...



[edit on 7-4-2005 by marg6043]

[edit on 7-4-2005 by marg6043]

Privacy with new vehicles is a major issue.

1) Navigation in most vehicles is quite capable of recording average speed, top speed, mileage etc and storing it.
2) Rental cars are coming with even more elaborate packages now which could be used to decide whether you have been operating a vehicle unsafely.
3) EZPass, technically speaking could be used to monitor your speed as well. If you went through Toll Booth A at 5PM and Toll Booth B at 6PM and they're 100 miles apart, well you just went 100mph didn't you? Ticket.

My concern isn't these devices. They're already there. My concern is what's being done with the information. I wouldn't mind if they were meant to assist with Accident Investigations for example "Impact was at 45mph from the passenger side rear". But if it's purpose is to say "You haven't clicked your seat belt in 6 weeks so I'm raising your rates" well that's an invasion of privacy.

Eventually, if all goes according to engineers plans we're going to be doing very little driving anyways. Automated trucks have been tested in California, laser guided cruise control exists, lane switch safety checkers exist, navigation exists. We'll all be passengers soon anyways so it's not much concern say... 15 years down the line.

Well that is one of the issues with progressive, because they are paying for the devices the data they collect goes directly to them, and we don't know if they can sell the information to others interested in it.

Yes the issue of privacy is one to take in consideration, after all the GPS system is privately owned.

The tickets that are received are not from local law enforcement, they're from the company who operates the camera systems... Cool Huh ?

Haha yeah we have those here in Kansas City, too. Whenever I get those tickets they go straight in the trash.

Every major vehicle today has an ECm (electronic Control Module). This records engine serial number, maximum speed limit, idle, trans ratios, etc. It also records at what speed you were driving, and for how long, with the time of day.

Erm think you could provide some sort of reference to this? Last I checked, and Ive worked on cars for years, the ECM did nothing of the sort. If there was a problem, say the IAT (Intake Air Temperature) sensor went berzerk, the ECM would store the appropriate code in memory, to be returned via an OBDI/II scanner. It does not record any serial numbers, speeds, ratios, times, nada. The primary purpose of the ECM/U is to control the fuel mixture in fuel injected vehicles.


I agree the owner of a vehicle should definitely be informed of the presence of such a device, and have the option of disabling it, however to jump the gun and say all of the technology is evil and malicious is outragous. It is simple evolution. In 30 years, do you want a flying car? How about just one that drives itself every now and then... well this technology needs to be developed, and these devices are the beginnings of this development.

People don't seem to realize that the future they desire requires a great deal of structure and administration, and just as anything else has, this future carries a price. If you don't want to pay the price, don't use the technology.

Do you expect the operator of a subway system to not know where the cars are simply because you don't want them to know where you are?

A simple solution: don't buy new cars. Theyre a waste of money anyway, loaded with more integrated circuits to fry than ever, and if theyre American, garunteed to have breakage built right in.

A note on those rental companies.. they have every right to utilize such a system in their vehicle, and an equal right to fine customers who neglect their vehicle. It is their property, not the driver's. The same applies for city streets... they belong to the city. If you don't want to obey the street law set by that city, don't use their roads.

Here are some more pics of black-boxes.

Great, now everyone will think their ABS unit is a black box

Originally posted by apc
Haha yeah we have those here in Kansas City, too. Whenever I get those tickets they go straight in the trash.

Yeah! Someday a cop may just pull you over and tell you that your license has expired- guess who's laughing then! You might throw the tickets in the trash but they are recorded into your license info and too many tickets not paid => licensee revoked!

Originally posted by apc
Do you expect the operator of a subway system to not know where the cars are simply because you don't want them to know where you are?

What kind of logic is this ?? You don't buy the subway car and park it in your garage at night do you? Its your car and you have bought it so nobody else needs to know where it is except you and maybe the police. What concern is it to the manufacturer where my car is?

Originally posted by apc

Here are some more pics of black-boxes.

Great, now everyone will think their ABS unit is a black box

And here is more misinformation by the ignorant! Care to read the link in my post! You should have
The second pic in my post is a GM Delphi air bag SDM / EDR module of a 2004 Saturn VUE shown. It can be used to generate a report on stored crash data in the air bag SDM module recorder (AKA the black box). The air bag SDM recorder can offer extremely important vehicle data in the final 5 seconds leading up to an accident event.
The third pic is a GM 'black box' SDM air bag module; Mounted under center console of a 2001 Cadillac DTS shown.
Maybe you could read this before you make proclamations!

www.airbagcrash.com...

I've been ranting about the black box that was slipped into my new truck without my knowledge for the past year. But, I tell myself that as long as I control my truck and the box inside it, nobody is able to read the info. No Onstar, so it can't dial out to The Man. I would have to get into a wreck for anybody to pull the info, and I would probably have other things to worry about at that point.

Once I had convinced myself I was safe and it was time to loosen the tinfoil helmet a bit, I found out about a new bill in the Texas Legislature that would make it mandatory for all vehicle inspection stickers to have an RFID chip installed.

Link to the text of the bill: www.capitol.state.tx.us...

It will be quite simple for your position to be tracked on the road, when in the past you had to voluntarily sign up for a tolltag. Not if this thing passes. Every vehicle in Texas gets RFID.

The bill also has some even more distressing provisions. It creates a computer system that tracks whether a vehicle is covered by insurance. (Not much of a problem there, since the state already requires proof of insurance to register the car.) Then, the proposed law links the computer system to the RFID chips, and if a sensor detects that a vehicle is driven without insurance, the owner gets sent a $250 fine.

Don't agree with the fine, or that you were driving the car? You can request a hearing. But, the law specifically says that the person requesting the hearing has the burden of proof. (So, you have to prove you are innocent, instead of the other way around.) It also eliminates the beyond a reasonable doubt standard and goes to preponderance of the evidence(i.e. more likely than not).

The owner is not allowed to bring up the fact that he or she wasn't driving the car. In fact, it looks like the text of the bill would not even allow him to point out that the car had been stolen. No right to a jury trial. Failure to pay the fine results in a drivers' license suspension.

The law calls the fine a "civil penalty" to get around those meddling Constitutional Rights lawyers.

I'm selling my truck and buying a donkey cart. (Although it will probably come with a black box "for my safety".)

For the most part I don't see what the big deal is. In most cases involving an accident they can alredy tell how fast you are going and whether you are wearing your seatbelt or applied your brakes. If you want airbags and anti lock brakes and more efficient cars these computer components are part of the price you pay. Most of these boxes are responsible for letting you know something is wrong with a component of the vehicle before anything bad happens. Take the Air bag system. It runs a self test every time you start up and stores the info of any problems so it can be fixed easier.
You want cars that are more fuel efficient, guess what it requires these computer systems. You wanna know your anti lock brakes or air bags aren't working before you need them , thats what those computers are for.