Alternative energy sources... which are best to support?, page 1
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 2 times
Topic started on 6-4-2005 @ 04:40 PM by LazarusTheLong
I would like to start this thread to discuss the many alternative /sustainable energy methods presently available and soon to be available, as well as the practical institution of use.

I believe there are already threads dealing with hypothetical energy sources, so lets stick with presently studied or released methods and practicality of use.

solar energy
wind power
hydroelectric
geothermal
fuel cell
hydrogen
methane
natural gas
coal
biofuel (including biodiesel)

each costs money "per watt" but some can generate power with just light maitenance after construction, so energy cost will drop after introduction.
some cost money to produce, and use...

with so may other options, and each benefiting from decreased cost with increased production, which ones would be the best to devote future grants and public funds to help push?

my thoughts are solar and wind, due to the minimal effects on the environment to use. All others have some sort of discharge into the environment. Also consider the discharge of factorys that produce the energy products (solar cells require many chemicals that are not so freindly)
wind power kills birds (only the stupid ones)
and so forth...

here is a link that lists all the options, and some of the benefits and deficits to each...
alternative and sustainable energy

hopefully our governments will start to switch to a non oil based economy and become more energy independant. Funding is available to push a few of these into cost effective production,
but which ones?


reply posted on 6-4-2005 @ 05:21 PM by Seekerof
I think very much so that this link(s) might prove most informative to all of us:
Alternatives to Oil, Energy Efficiency, and Oil Wars, Page Two

Life After the Oil Crash

Even Bush is well aware of this when he said:

Not surprisingly, George W. Bush has echoed Dick Cheney’s sentiments. In May 2001, Bush stated, "What people need to hear loud and clear is that we’re running out of energy in America.







seekerof

[edit on 6-4-2005 by Seekerof]


reply posted on 6-4-2005 @ 06:13 PM by accountability
www.feasta.org...

It looks like the best bet is to have a local refinery (a biodiesel refinery costs about 3k) but you have to have some form of vegetable oil and methane to make it.

Germany has proven that solar can be made effective even at inefficient lattitudes. (but it's government helped subsidize it)

A combination of wind and solar, with biodiesel generator as a back up

build a society rather than an economy- if you use local resouces to meet community needs- and produce food and clothing locally-


www.feast.org... Primer on sustainability and that ugly word that most Americans can't fathom-socialism


[edit on 6-4-2005 by accountability]


reply posted on 6-4-2005 @ 08:15 PM by LazarusTheLong
Many good points.
particularly the first link from seekerof.
It points out oil is a more powerful energy producing method than any other.
which means that big energy users(industry) will be the last to give in.

Whatever we switch to, it needs to be sooner rather than later.
we cant really continue to use the fuel we have now, due to the need of it in the future (it would make a great backup source).

Change will be difficult. what is interesting though is that gas has remained cheap all these years. If it was equated to any other commodity, it would be three times what it costs.
Some of that is the natural process of industry building.
The introduction years are always the most expensive.

Any method we choose to develop will become much cheaper thru evolution of operation.
We do need to start using wind and solar in rural areas, so that the density of the solar acreage and danger to birds is not high. Many people dont know how easy it is to convert a house to an efficient comfortable space. No compromise of lifestyle neccessary, just a new bank loan to pay, instead of an electricity bill.

Local integration of biodeisel generators is a realistic option.
Basically, we can break down the usage of "oil fuel" energy production to mainly Industry, while every other segment of population can start to find other options.

The reason i say this, is Big Oil is powerful, and they will need a concession to allow development of other fuels, and energy production. (just look at patents for alternative energy sources. big oil owns many). And industrial giants might support a fuel cell energy generator for PR purposes, but most others will still want a cheap alternative. The good news is, that once the civilian population accepts and adopts energy alternatives, the costs will have decreased considerably.

I would like to use the ideas generated on this thread for an open letter to all of the senate and house members. Perhaps if enough PR can be stirred, This could end up as a suggestion form for introducing a related bill. I think everyone could appreciate an America that uses less oil, and produces no less electricity
AND develops for its own use and export new cheaper alternative energy sources...
be they biodiesel, wind generators, solar cells (there is quite a buying spree for american solar cells right now) or whatever we come up with.

djohnsto77 I agree that the new nuclear reactors are much better than the old ones, but we still havent figured out how to get rid of the radiotive material we have right now, much less the small amount more that the new plants would generate. zerosum... the point is to put money where it will do the most good over the long haul... not just another stopgap...
I think we leave nuclear out unless it is a non waste producing design.



[edit on 6-4-2005 by LazarusTheLong]


reply posted on 6-4-2005 @ 08:26 PM by pavil
www.aesmichigan.com...

This is the website of the company that I was speaking of here in Michigan.


reply posted on 6-4-2005 @ 09:33 PM by celle3
Is there Alternative Energy ???
- what can sustain modern energy consumption ?
- Oil will not run out imediatly - it will become verry expensive
- oil is more then fuel for cars , its plastic's , rubbers , all modern motor oil's , fertilizer for agriculture and a lot more
- The expensive oil will no longer be used as fuel for warming or as fuel for transport => to expensive
- Alternative energy is fine for creating Energy => electricity but thats all
try to stock a lot off it its almost impossible
So the big problem will be transport , i can imagine all transport going back to train rail's whit electric lockomotives but personal transport will be a lot more complex forget about personal car or going to Europ or US on vacation , you will go on vakation to the place you get on foot
that first stage - here in modern country's
all industry will have to be moved to the rail roads as truck will no longer run - boats will run for a a time back on steam or sailing like the old day's
it will take a few weeks or more to go to the us so comercialy speekin whe go back to the 14 th century
Eatch region for its own , as country's will become a lot more complex to oversee ,
The biggest problem is as i said transportation , all modern tool are made off components all components are made on diferent plants - cities , country's same for the basic material they are made off .
In lets say 150 years whe will face the fact that all expert whe are whe can just see one littel part off the industry whe work on .
A plumber can place piping and draining but can he make his own tools ??or pipes ??
He can not he has to order them to the guy who makes the pipes - who is dependent off the guy who makes the oven to melt the iron and so on
its a chain when you destroy mobility and comunication it will take a wile but basicly whe will go back living like in 1300 but whit somme modern and some off the old way's .
My point is put Bill gates in the busch and he will not comme back whit a pc , he will be lucky to just survive .
Basicly that what evry body will try to do => Survive because it will not be that Easy .
one more thing :> bio diesel , alcohol driven engines => to plant and recolt is energy negative its take more energy to produce then recolted
Hydrogen ? - actualy its produced verry cheap whit petrol driven industry but an alternative in nowhere to be seen
Nucleair driven trucks ? littel to dangerous and expensive
solar energy ? nice when you live in the desert , pannels are hard to get when poeple are killing eatch other for food .
BUT 1 GOOD point find a solution for transport and you resolve the complete problem => beam me back sko
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