Pope's Body... Not Embalmed?

Lanotom, that definitely makes sense, thanks for the info.

It's not exactly desert heat over there, in the mid 50's and 60's, but still if no action was taken, it would start to smell. That's the reality of life. When things in the human body aren't happening the way they should, decomposition is inevitable. Steps are taken to prevent that, and understanding the possibile reasons for avoiding embalming now, it certainly makes sense to do what you stated above.

People looked up to him as a hero and a larger than life figure. With an estimated 2-4 million people filing by to view him, it was best to keep him in the condition we all remember him as. It is their last visual image of him...

I listening to FOX and a viewer who went to see the Pope said he "looked blue" and that it was disturbing to see him look like that.

"turning blue" would mean the body is already starting to decompose right?

worldwatcher, depends on where.

A few signs of death are involving blue appearance.

Racoon eyes, as they're sometimes referred to would involve very dark areas under the eyes which are a death mark. Also blood pooling happens and can give a blue color. Keep in mind blood minus oxygen is blue.

Of course a person who has had their blood removed will appear incredibly pale and will be done up with makeup to appear less "ghostlike".

Bah, what the church says it does and what it really does are two different things. All these supposed "saints" that are still preserved have more than likely been embalmed, but of course they won't let you get close enough to them to take samples of their skin.

They place them in three coffins to slow decomposition, the outer coffin is wood, followed by a zinc coffin, then a wood inner coffin.

They said on television the reason he was not embalmed is because they plan to canonize him and they could not canonize him if he were embalmed.

This is creeping me out. So y'all are saying that an UNembalmed body does not decompose as would one that has been embalmed?

Cutting off a finger years after death and it bleeds?

Not embalming so as to prove that the embalming procedure wasn't the cause of death?

And what does this have to do with sainthood?

Originally posted by jsobecky
This is creeping me out. So y'all are saying that an UNembalmed body does not decompose as would one that has been embalmed?

Cutting off a finger years after death and it bleeds?

Not embalming so as to prove that the embalming procedure wasn't the cause of death?

And what does this have to do with sainthood?

read the whole thread, it's explained. check out the links on father baker, that'll enlighten you a bit more.

basically, the pope's not embalmed, is starting to look bad, and we're trying to figure out why they went without the procedure.

It doesn't even look as though they preserved him with formalin- it usually gives the same appearance as a full embalming.

one thing that didn't cross my mind earlier is the fact that the pope died of septic shock. that probably means his body didn't get rid of any waste from the blood through urine for several days, and the bacteria that is in the system could be working it's way out. still doesn't explain the lack of embalming, but gives us a clearer reason for the quick decomposition.

In my opinion they have had to treat him in some form. After this long, and in these conditions, I think he would look worse. It makes me think that they at least preserved him with Formalin or something. The stories of the of the incorruptibles is pretty fascinating though. Poor St John of the Cross has been exhumed several times over the last four hundred years to find that he is still flexible and well preserved. Of course, there could be things going on behind the scenes.

Originally posted by Bobbo
read the whole thread, it's explained. check out the links on father baker, that'll enlighten you a bit more.

basically, the pope's not embalmed, is starting to look bad, and we're trying to figure out why they went without the procedure.

It doesn't even look as though they preserved him with formalin- it usually gives the same appearance as a full embalming.

I certainly defer to your expertise in this area, since it is your occupation. But what puzzled me were statements like this:

They said on television the reason he was not embalmed is because they plan to canonize him and they could not canonize him if he were embalmed.

I didn't realize that embalming made one ineligible for sainthood. I mean, the fact that the body was preserved years after death might indicate "purity", and thus be a factor but not the only factor for canonization.. But I would think that at least one saint has been embalmed over the years.

Ah, well, I shoulda paid attention to those nuns in parochial school.

Most popes are embalmed. Without getting too much into the procedure, there's two "types" of embalming- arterial embalming and cavity embalming. Most popes have not been cavity embalmed, just arterial.

popes will usually have some body parts removed and placed at other churches (Relics, as they're usually called), which is usually why the body is only arterially embalmed, so that the internal organs are not destroyed during cavity embalming.

saints in the past have been embalmed, and from what I understand, the Catholic church doesn't prohibit embalming anyone, even those who they hope will be candiadates for canonization at some point. In fact, it's almost contradictory, because candidates for canonization aren't supposed to be considered candidates until 5 years after their death.

I recall hearing that the pope was embalmed prior to his laying in state. I have noticed that, at least on my TV, that he keeps getting greener and greener and gravity is taking its toll on his facial features. Another day and his lips will reach his ears. I've been wondering if anyone else has noticed this.

It would seem to me that if he was not embalmed he would have blown up like a balloon and the smell would overwhelm the whole city by now.

According to this article:

John Paul's corpse was not embalmed, Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said this week, but did undergo treatment to preserve it during public viewing.

Vatican officials indicated that the procedure involved the injection of a formaldehyde-based fluid, which falls short of a full embalming process.

www.startribune.com...

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[edit on 05/4/7 by GradyPhilpott]

It is possible to "vent" a body, to get rid of the gasses that cause the build-up that bloats the body. this could be why we dont see him bloating. but you're right, his lips will reach his ears soon, lol.

I hadn't heard of venting, but I'm hoping they vent that gas somewhere besides the room where everyone is, otherwise it would be most unpleasant.

I did notice yesterday that the expressions on the faces of GW, Laura, GHW, Bill, Condie, and Andrew did reveal a kind of distress other than sadness or reverence, as one would expect. Perhaps, the pope really is overly "ripe."

Posthumous papal misfortune continued into modern times. In 1958, Pope Pius XII's pre-death agony was photographed by an unscrupulous physician and the pictures splashed on the front pages of Italian newspapers.

The luckless Pius XII was not only tabloid fodder because of the clandestine photos; his body also decomposed significantly before burial. Accounts from the time describe his corpse turning "emerald green'' and stolid Swiss Guards fainting from the smell.

When papal aides instructed that Pope Paul VI be only lightly embalmed upon his death in 1978, they failed to take Rome's steamy summertime weather into account. After two days on public display in the August heat, the body began to putrefy.

www.startribune.com...

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I hadn't heard of venting, but I'm hoping they vent that gas somewhere besides the room where everyone is, otherwise it would be most unpleasant.

It's basically just a hole in the stomach, you normally plug it, but you can leave it open if theres bloating.

so it'd be stinking up the room...

So you can keep the vent open when the body is not in view, but plug it up when it is?

Personally, I'm not very sentimental when it comes to human remains. I have never visited a cemetery on my own to go to a grave of a family member or friend, and I really prefer to have my memories of a person as living and not stuffed into a box.

I've given my body to The Living Bank and when I went home recently my mother and father expressed their disapproval at my decision, even though I made that donation 33 years ago. I made arrangements to have my remains disposed of at no cost to my family and have them used to help others, but if my family chose to intervene and insist on my burial, it would be at their expense and why would I care? I would be dead.

There's way to much sentimentality when it come to this mortal coil, in my humble opinion.

maybe this will help shed some light on the topic

Pope John Paul II's Body Was Probably Lightly Embalmed, Expert Says

ROME (AP) - Pope John Paul II's body was probably lightly embalmed before being exposed for public viewing for four days ahead of his funeral and burial, a Rome embalmer said Friday.
Massimo Signoracci, whose family embalmed three previous popes but was not involved in John Paul's preparations, said some kind of treatment had to be done to allow the body to be displayed on an open platform inside St. Peter's Basilica.

"For a four-day viewing, injections of formaldehyde and other preserving liquids are necessary," Signoracci told The Associated Press, cautioning that he could not be certain what had been done without examining the body.

The Vatican has said John Paul's body was not embalmed, only "prepared" for viewing by hundreds of thousands of mourners, refusing to elaborate on the procedure used.

read the whole article

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
So you can keep the vent open when the body is not in view, but plug it up when it is?

Personally, I'm not very sentimental when it comes to human remains. I have never visited a cemetery on my own to go to a grave of a family member or friend, and I really prefer to have my memories of a person as living and not stuffed into a box.

I've given my body to The Living Bank and when I went home recently my mother and father expressed their disapproval at my decision, even though I made that donation 33 years ago. I made arrangements to have my remains disposed of at no cost to my family and have them used to help others, but if my family chose to intervene and insist on my burial, it would be at their expense and why would I care? I would be dead.

There's way to much sentimentality when it come to this mortal coil, in my humble opinion.

the "vent" has to stay either plugged or unplugged, you normally can't switch back and forth (to prevent leakage of fluid through the puncture site).

I'd have to agree with you though, there is too much sentimentality placed on death, and even the dying process. Obviously I won't outright condone body donation- since it would eventually start hurting business- but I think it's a great thing for someone to donate their body and allow it to be used to help further any number of research projects, or even just used in a gross anatomy class to further a student's education.

From a professional standpoint , I disagree with Massimo Signoracci's comments about a light embalming. No single embalming procedure, or comibination of them, would produce such poor results- even a "light" embalming still circulates the embalming fluid through the entire body, and we shouldn't be seeing the change in color that we did for the few days leading up to burial.

I've been going through my texts trying to find any information that I can about funeral proceedings for the various priestly ranks in the catholic church, but they end at the Cardinals, and don't give insight into the Papal funeral procedures.

reply to post by Bobbo


The Padre still walks among us here in Lackawanna.

The POPE is referred to as The Holy Father. In my Roman Catholic religion The Pope is right up there in rank , pomp and circumstance. He is so revered as are many priests. Embalming would be considered UNHOLY, intrusice and sacraligous. Thus emalming is Taboo. Howver; I think that they MUSt do some sort of preperation to the his body, otherwise how coudl they parade him around for as long as they do? Why doesn't the body begine to attract flies and insect activity . be that as it may, the Pope still is or was just another MAN or flesh and blood. as for the Saint theory, well partially true, at least it's what the church wants for us to believe.
Depending on Where the body is buried,age,disease factors,type of soil or climates, Yes all these facts taken into considerations would determine the conditions of a corpse
long after it's interned.
anonymous