New Japan history textbook. Watch out!!!, page 6

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reply posted on 13-7-2005 @ 03:45 AM by BillHicksRules

Dear all,

It is great to see the high quality of intellectual debate being carried out on this thread.

Cheers

BHR

reply posted on 13-7-2005 @ 04:24 AM by chinawhite

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy

The have apoligised on no less than 17 occasions and paid massive amounts in reperations. What more do the people of Asia need? What have the Japanese done since that warrents any kind of fear? What have they done to show that they haven't learned their lesson. When was the last atrocity comitted by Japan?

ok when you say massive. how much is massive? beacuase i never read about massive compensation

reply posted on 13-7-2005 @ 04:42 AM by CTID56092

They have not apologised! They've 'regretted', it was 'unfortunate' but they've never aplogised, admitted their evil crimes and faced the music.

They're now convincing new generations of japanese it was fine & honourable. Ask any young Japanese what they know about the war and you'll see what I mean.

A campaign of crime, and a further crime of denying the truth.

Just because they make videos & cars doesn't mean we should forget / excuse until they acknowledge their history.

www.nesa.org.uk...

powjustice.com...

Unfortunately the dead of the Pacific have no-one to speak up for them

[edit on 13/7/05 by CTID56092]

reply posted on 13-7-2005 @ 08:07 AM by howmuchisthedoggy

Originally posted by chinawhite

ok when you say massive. how much is massive? beacuase i never read about massive compensation

I take it from your avatar you are Chinese? If you are, it doesn't surprise me to hear you have never read about compensations. This wouldn't fit into China's game plan.

So here you are:

Japan's Record on Wartime Reparations.
www.jiyuu-shikan.org...

If by some chance the Chinese government has seen fit to censor this page as well, please let me know and I will gladly post it up for you.

reply posted on 13-7-2005 @ 08:18 AM by howmuchisthedoggy

Originally posted by CTID56092
They have not apologised! They've 'regretted', it was 'unfortunate' but they've never aplogised, admitted their evil crimes and faced the music.

Please read this article before you continue to challenge me on things you know nothing about.

www.asiamedia.ucla.edu...

Some salient quotes:

.....is Japan always going to have to say it's sorry…forever?

The Japanese perspective is that the apology game has gone on too long. Okay – then would this proposed apology suffice?

"During a certain period in the not too distant past, Japan, following a mistaken national policy, advanced along the road to war, only to ensnare the Japanese people in a fateful crisis, and, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. In the hope that no such mistake be made in the future, I regard, in a spirit of humility, these irrefutable facts of history, and express here once again my feelings of deep remorse and state my heartfelt apology. Allow me also to express my feelings of profound mourning for all victims, both at home and abroad, of that history."

Not theoretically, good enough? In fact, this was the stated public apology for Japan's war crimes delivered by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama. And this was in 1995.

Then, in 1998, former Japanese Prime Minister Keizo Obuchi expressed similar "remorse and heartfelt apology."

That apology was publicly accepted by then-South Korean President Kim Dae Jong.

Emphasis in bold mine, just in case you miss it. Please read my post to the Chinese guy above on reparations paid for apoligies that were more than words.

They're now convincing new generations of japanese it was fine & honourable. Ask any young Japanese what they know about the war and you'll see what I mean.

And you know this because? Where are you getting your information from? World War II comics? I ask many Japanese people young and old about this subject and they are quite aware of their past and very commited to a peaceful future.

Come on and tell me, how many Japanese people have you ever met?

How many have you ever had an honest conversation with?

Or are you guilty of falling "A campaign of crime, and a further crime of denying the truth" orchestrated by your own government?

reply posted on 13-7-2005 @ 08:33 AM by CTID56092

double post

[edit on 13/7/05 by CTID56092]

reply posted on 13-7-2005 @ 08:33 AM by CTID56092

I've met lots of Japanese people and had two Japanese g/f's - thanks!

Those I've met have an 'incomplete' picture of what their country did in the war.

Japan's failure to make a full apology are well-known

www.news.com.au...

Rise of Neo-con revisionists in Japan
www.sfgate.com.../chronicle/archive/2002/04/28/MN102648.DTL

Japan honours war-criminals as heroes
news.bbc.co.uk...

Typical Japanese equivocation about their crimes
news.bbc.co.uk...

Read this and tell me you've apologised and faced what you did.

www.nesa.org.uk...

Certainly the Chinese aren't satisfied with weak words

www.chinadaily.com.cn...

Re teaching the young a justified apologist history

The protests were sparked by new Japanese schoolbooks, which many Chinese say whitewash Japan's occupation of much of China during the 1930s and early 1940s.

Critics are angered that one of the books refers to the killing of more than 250,000 civilians by Japanese troops in the Chinese city of Nanjing in 1937 as an "incident", rather than the "massacre" it is known as elsewhere.

news.bbc.co.uk...

How many people in your family were POW's of the Japanese and say men split in two for 'fun', had to eat rats etc?

I do know what I'm talking about

[edit on 13/7/05 by CTID56092]

[edit on 13/7/05 by CTID56092]

reply posted on 13-7-2005 @ 09:14 AM by howmuchisthedoggy

Originally posted by CTID56092
I've met lots of Japanese people and had two Japanese g/f's - thanks!

Oh, so you are an expert then! LOL!

Two Japanese girls decided to have a fashion accessory gaijin boyfriend and you got past the kowaii-oishiii phase to have a real chat with them?

Please. Stop. You're killing me!

Those I've met have an 'incomplete' picture of what their country did in the war.

Or maybe they just didn't want to open themselves up to you? This statement alone demonstrates how little you understand the Japanese character.

I live in Japan. I speak reasonably fluent Japanese. I don't claim to be a leading expert, but I have more experience under my belt with these people than you with your 2 g/fs! Have you ever been to Japan? Not Tokyo, but outside Tokyo, in the real Japan?

Japan's failure to make a full apology are well-known

Yawn. See my link in the last post.

Rise of Neo-con revisionists in Japan

As oppossed to the adventures of the neo-cons in America? Cause and effect have any meaning to you?

Japan honours war-criminals as heroes

Rubbish. It is a shrine to the war-dead. Among the hundreds of thousands of normal Japanese soldiers a dozen or so "war-criminals". It is treated as a memorial to all Japanese who have died in conflict and where Japanese re-affirm their commitment to peace, by praying to their ancestors who have died in wars that they will not allow such a thing to happen again.

www.nesa.org.uk...

If this is where you are getting all your info, it is no wonder you have such a coloured view of the situation. It is histironics and it doesn't impress me.

I found the reference to "Bush-i-do" quite amusing as well. Being a practioner of bushido myself I find their slant on the "warrior's way" quite insulting and slanderous.

There was a reference to the Chinese "Rape of Nanking" movie in that link. Have you even seen that movie? I have. It is horrific. I also remember the scene where one of the bushido masters comes to see what is going on and was disgusted at was being done in the name of bushido.

Can you think outside the box for a second and question why China would produce a movie like that at this time? Or are you going to fall into the clutches of hysteria as well?

Certainly the Chinese aren't satisfied with weak words

LOL!!! But they took the money as well, though! The Chinese have a different agenda and seeing Japan as a friend is not part of it. Quite the opposite in fact.

The protests were sparked by new Japanese schoolbooks, which many Chinese say whitewash Japan's occupation of much of China during the 1930s and early 1940s.

Read my posts in the earlier pages. You will see my answer to this farce as well.

How many people in your family were POW's of the Japanese and say men split in two for 'fun', had to eat rats etc?

None. My family had more sense to stay out of it. War is dirty and barbaric. I am sure I could dig up plenty of lovely tales about English escapades down through the years. The Japanese had the excuse of being a feudal society being trust upon the Industrialised world scene. What was England's excuse?

reply posted on 13-7-2005 @ 09:23 AM by CTID56092

You asked I told you. Sorry you don't like the answer.

I was referring to the rape of Nanking not the film or didn't that happen either? You excuse all you want to you're clearly not 'involved' as you said.

No issue with Japanese people per se - it's not their fault their govt is blinkered and unable to recognise the evil they did.
Having seen them taking 'happy snaps' at the Kwai bridge

it seemed the Japanese were either insensitive or ignorant - which do you propose?

If you're indicative of the prevailing received wisdom in Japan then it's more of an issue than even I thought!

Do you have a link to a full and unequivocal aplology from the Japanese Govt??

reply posted on 13-7-2005 @ 09:28 AM by howmuchisthedoggy

If that's the best you can do, no contest I'm afraid.

Originally posted by CTID56092

Do you have a link to a full and unequivocal aplology from the Japanese Govt??

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet again, some links to Japanese Government apologies.

en.wikipedia.org...

Sheesh. Talk about having to hammer it in for some people.

reply posted on 13-7-2005 @ 10:49 AM by CTID56092

Doesn't appear Japan's apologies have reached the aggrieved!

www.hkvca.ca...

app1.chinadaily.com.cn...

etc etc etc

Pro-Japan site that recognises apologies have been inadequate and that Japan refuses to acknowledge its history

www.japantoday.com...

Account of ex-US POW educating the Japanese himself.

www.us-japandialogueonpows.org...

Letter to him from teacher

"My country Japan and the company still owe you the recognition of and apology for the wrong doings during the war. I as for one, your friends in Japan support you in the on going fight."

This is an apology - from the son of the man who may have killed my Uncle Jimmy's mate Alf

www.us-japandialogueonpows.org...

Shame the Japanese Government don't have the courage of Osamu Komai - if you read this you'll see all the hassle he got 'cos of his dad was about its effect on Japan - not on the tortured & killed - he only realised what had actually happened while outside Japan.

Still waiting for an explanation of the Kanchanaburi happy snaps at the bridge - not just me that finds it odd / callous / disrespectful

www.stickmanbangkok.com...

reply posted on 13-7-2005 @ 10:58 AM by howmuchisthedoggy

Originally posted by CTID56092

Doesn't appear Japan's apologies have reached the aggrieved!

Still waiting for an explanation of the Kanchanaburi happy snaps at the bridge - not just me that finds it odd / callous / disrespectful

Alright, no amount of quotes is going to get through to you. YOU tell me, what would be an acceptable apology from the Japanese and it what respect the apoligies to date have been unacceptable?

The only photos I have seen of Japanese people taking of themselves where they didn't do the happy cheezu malarky is wedding photos strangely enough. It is a cultural thing, I doubt it was meant to offend. If there was a Japanese langauge explanation on the bridge I would say it was disrespectful.

reply posted on 13-7-2005 @ 11:14 AM by CTID56092

A simple -
'We were wong, no excuses, we weren't forced to rape, kill, brutalise and poison. We did it because we were lead astray by our leaders and we're sorry and ready to pay compensation to survivors.'
would be a start, from a sitting Prime Minister on behalf of the Japanese nation not some 'personal' apology that can be played differently at home & abroad.

No-one's saying apologise for the acts of war - it's the brutality without reason that was inexcuseable and still hurts. If UK had treated Japanese that way in '45 there'd have been an outcry.

On the bridge @ Kanchan there are Japanese signs and yet they still go - do the Germans go, smiling, to Auschwitz?

My Norwegian mate was so upset he had to walk away or he'd have hit someone.
I've assumed it's ignorance as we know Japanese schoolbooks are incomplete. To think otherwise would be too upsetting

reply posted on 13-7-2005 @ 06:50 PM by howmuchisthedoggy

Originally posted by CTID56092
A simple -
'We were wong, no excuses, we weren't forced to rape, kill, brutalise and poison. We did it because we were lead astray by our leaders and we're sorry and ready to pay compensation to survivors.'
would be a start, from a sitting Prime Minister on behalf of the Japanese nation not some 'personal' apology that can be played differently at home & abroad.

Right, and what is different between that and these statements by sitting Japanese Prime Ministers on behalf of the government and Japanese people?

09/06/1997. Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto.
"In 1995, on the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II, the Government of Japan expressed its resolution through the statement by the Prime Minister, which states that during a certain period in the past, Japan's conduct caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, including China and the Prime Minister expressed his feeling of deep remorse and stated his heartfelt apology, ..... I would like to repeat that this is the official position of the Government of Japan.

During the summit meeting that I had during my visit to China, I have made this point very clear in a frank manner to the Chinese side. Premier Li Peng said that he concurs completely with my remarks"

It seems this apology was enough for the Chinese at that time.

01/13/1998. Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto
At the meeting last night with Prime Minister Blair, did Prime Minister Hashimoto really apologize for the prisoners of war. Spokesman Hashimoto: The important thing is that the Prime Minister of Japan expressed the feelings of deep remorse and stated heartfelt apologies to the people who suffered in World War II directly to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

07/15/1998. Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto.
The Government of Japan, painfully aware of its moral responsibility concerning the issue of so called "wartime comfort women," ......Recognizing that the issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women, I would like to convey to Your Excellency my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women

There you go. Apoligies on behalf of the Government and people of Japan by sitting Prime Ministers for their actions, POWs and "comfort women".

If you actually read the links I gave, you would already know this. What else do these people want?

Are you saying they are only interested in getting as much money as possible? They have recieved heart-felt apoligies. Are their actions only mercanary? Maybe you can provide me with links of other Governments paying compensations to individual victims of war on the opposing side. I already provided a link with lists of compensations to individual countries. Japan has given above and beyond in the realm of compensations.

All those links you provided before demonstrated the mind-set of the Japanese and how ashamed and remorseful they are about their past. Your own links support my case!

reply posted on 13-3-2008 @ 12:12 AM by chinawhite

Browsing in the Political section and stumbled on this post I missed

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
So here you are:

Japan's Record on Wartime Reparations.
www.jiyuu-shikan.org...

How is that considered "massive" reparations.

If I drove a car into you and made you a paraplegic and you were compensated with a night out would that be considered "massive" compensation

If by some chance the Chinese government has seen fit to censor this page as well, please let me know and I will gladly post it up for you.

You made assumptions based on my name?.

Gee you have been living in Japan much to long with their homogeneous society and such.

reply posted on 14-3-2008 @ 05:07 PM by seagull

reply to post by Sugarlump

I'm guessing that you don't have a lot of experiance dealing with that particular generation of the Japanese people. Many of them are rampant and rabid nationalists who see those atrocities as being of little to no matter. In fact many of them blame China and Korea as forcing them to invade. I've had several encounters over the years with these folks. Not all of them feel this way, 'tis true...but many do.

It goes back millenia. Koreans hate Chinese. Chinese hate Koreans. Japanese hate Chinese. Chinese hate Japanese. Koreans hate Japanese. Japanese hate Koreans. Though in recent years that has moderated slightly. It's still very evident in the older generations.

Token apologies have appeared recently, all to the good I suppose...better than nothing, but not much.

reply posted on 14-3-2008 @ 09:40 PM by Jazzyguy

Ryutaro did apologize. It's like Kevin Rudd vs John Howard on the aborigine issue, some are more remorseful (or remorseless) than others.

Perhaps the chinese people complaint is more about how the japanese government can get away with denying the atrocities several times. That the voice of the japanese people and the world are just too small (especially compare to the holocaust denier). They seem to let the japanese government get away easily for such a heinous crime.

Did I consider the act by the Japanese more evil than others? Actually yes. It's the combination of the human mutilation and the child rape. There is something about the japanese people that is just not right at all. Including its present (modern) culture and belief.

In Indonesia, the japanese did evil things too. They killed a lot of Indonesians (tens of thousands in a single event). And I'm totally not buying the japanese being honorable, its honor seems more about image rather than true honor. We just feel indifferent about japanese sincerity, it's baloney, what do you expect.

ps: I'm not native, too much american influence