New Japan history textbook. Watch out!!!

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posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 05:38 AM
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Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Uncle Joe,

I rest my case then.

Cheers

BHR

p.s. RedHare, what racially pure and culturally isolated country do you hail?

Right now, USA. You are not living in the same country are you?




posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 05:42 AM
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RedHare,

You in the US are having a go at the Japanese for having adapted their culture due to interaction with someone elses?

Do you not get irony where you live?

Cheers

BHR

[edit on 6-4-2005 by BillHicksRules]



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 05:49 AM
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Originally posted by RedHare
First of all, do not try to manipulate my words, or put any political hats on me.



Yes I hate Japan...
Japan is a jigsaw country, people of cowards.


I don't have to manipulate your words or put any hats on you to show you for what you are.


I never defended the Chinese government for what they did to their people. I stated clearly that these are 2 seperate issure and should not be mixed up.


This is exactly my point- you are trying to draw a distinction between the Chinese government killing people and the Japanese government killing people. Why should they not be mixed up? Should they not be mixed up because they are not morally equivalent? That would seem to be the logical intent of your words. They could hardly be relevant with any other meaning. And guess what- THEY ARE morally equivalent and there is no reason to differentiate between the murder of Chinese people by the Chinese government and the murder of Chinese people by the Japanese government.



And you think those half-baked arrogant apologies (even yourself had posted above) are acceptable to those families?

That was an outlying example which I brought up to to show why some people feel the way they do. It was not intended to represent the sum of Japanese statements and therefore does not justify the response to the sum of Japanese statements. The fact of the matter is that the Japanese have been apologizing heavily for the last 20+ years.
NOTHING, least of all words, will ever undo what was done. That's something people are going to have to learn to live with. It is fair to be wary of developments in Japan with an eye to the future. If he strikes you once it's his fault. If he strikes you twice it's your fault. I understand that. On the other hand it is NOT fair to eternally harbor this hatred and resentment and continually rehash the attrocities of 50 years ago. Are the Chinese still going to be complaining about this in 200 years?! Seriously? EVERYONE does wrong, as we have all seemed to agree. If everyone held a beef over it we'd all be at war all of the time. What sort of world do you want to live in? Do you want to do the Kosovo thing and have ethnic cleansing back and forth, or be like Israel and Palestine and hate eachother for the next thousand years and go back and forth with terrorism?



What about the women who were forced into military prostitution? They travel to Japan yearly to demand apologies and appeasement but are rejected by their suprem court denying these women's credibility, putting them once again in pain.

You don't go to court for an apology. You got to court for a cash award. That's not an apology, that's reparations, just like I said earlier. Get it out of your head. We leveled two entire cities and made it so that nothing could live there for decades to come, then we made them adopt a pacifist constitution. Now as long as they don't become militant again, what the heck else do you want?
By the way, here is a list of just a few of their apologies. 36 of them from Prime ministers, cabinet officers, and emperors of Japan over the last 33 years.
en.wikipedia.org...
This is from Koizumi in 2003.

During the war, Japan caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. On behalf of the people of Japan, I hereby renew my feelings of profound remorse as I express my sincere mourning to the victims




Why dont you try saying the same things to Jewish people or these poor grandmas, telling them that they're playing "blame-games" see what they'll say to you.


Actually any Jew who didn't actually experience the holocaust who goes around professing his undying hatred for Germans IS playing blame games and I'd tell him to his hate-mongering face to grow up and get a life. Come to think of it, I suppose that means I have to say the same to you-
Quit your hate-mongering. Grow up and get a life!


I hate Japan. Because of them, my family had to leave their ancestral city and live as refugees. Until, secere apologies and appeasements are given, I'll continue hating Japan with a passion.


Ah, you finally said it! Appeasements. Would you like to suggest a dollar amount? I've got some bad news for you amigo- they've fulfilled the terms of their surrender- you aren't entitled to anything. How old are you for that matter. My guess is that Japan never did ANYTHING to You.

I'm Irish. I know my ancestors got a raw deal. You don't see me dedicating my life to senseless hatred over past events that didn't even happen to me personally. Live for the future. Get over it.

[edit on 6-4-2005 by The Vagabond]



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 06:04 AM
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Vagabond.

First of all, they is a difference between the Chinese people killing Chinese and the Japanese killing Chinese, THERE ARE SEPARATE EVENTS. Are you suggesting that WW1 and WW2 should be interchangeable because people died fighting?

Secondly, i wonder what the Jews would say if you told them that the Holocaust had never occurred?

While figures from Nanjing are disputed, the primary sources such as photos do not lie. Go look it up on Wikipedia. The rise of extreme-right-wing politicians in Japan is quite alarming, you should go to google and search what they Mayor Ishihara has said in the past.

EDIT: Also, Japan is militarily progressing, the step into Iraq is the beginning of a military build up, this is not fear-mongering or anything, just a statement.

And another thing, Japan still has quite a sizeable fleet, 60+ major surface vessels, you should be interested to note thats more then China's fleet. With all the Hoora about China's military build-up, isn't it interesting to note that Japan has always maintained such a sizeable fleet, even before the Chinese build-up.

-----

Having said all that though, in the end, politicians shmoticians, most people are just people and i would get along fine with them.

-----

EDIT2: Just a side note, it's funny that this corresponds with the Japanese government just editing a recent textbook on iraq.

1. There changed words from "US unilaterally attacked" to "US attacked Iraq".
2. Removed mentioning of no weapons of mass destruction were ever found.
3. said that the Japan Self-Defence Force were deployed to a "non-combat areas", instead of a "battlezone".

LMAO, the last one is the funniest, if it's non-combat, why on Earth are we Australians sending troops to replace the dutch that were protecting them?



-----

To be fair, China has recently yanked a textbook that was i guess, a Chinese version of revisionism (though it did not go nearly as far as Japan's) by a Chinese author. The link is on japantoday, can't get it, it's pop up.

[edit on 6-4-2005 by rapier28]



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 06:21 AM
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Doesn't Hollywood change history all the time?



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 06:53 AM
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Originally posted by rapier28
First of all, they is a difference between the Chinese people killing Chinese and the Japanese killing Chinese, THERE ARE SEPARATE EVENTS. Are you suggesting that WW1 and WW2 should be interchangeable because people died fighting?

Morally the world wars are interchangable because they both resulted in the slaughter of people over nationalist issues. So yes.
The technical seperation is not the issue. I could kill two different people and it would be two different events, but there would be a moral equivalence between the two murders.
The moral equivalency is the issue. There is not a moral difference and therefore RedHare's attempt to counter the issue of Chinese massacres on their population was flawed. The only real defense on that issue was that two wrongs don't make a right. Anything beyond that is denying the wrongfulness of what the Chinese did.


Secondly, i wonder what the Jews would say if you told them that the Holocaust had never occurred?


You obviously have a huge misunderstanding of what I have said. I have not disputed the attrocities committed by the Japanese at all.


While figures from Nanjing are disputed, the primary sources such as photos do not lie. Go look it up on Wikipedia.


I am aware of what happened in Nanjing and I do not dispute it. I dispute RedHare's defense of Chinese attrocities and I dispute his insistence on perpetuating the legacy of hate from a war that ended 60 years ago.


The rise of extreme-right-wing politicians in Japan is quite alarming, you should go to google and search what they Mayor Ishihara has said in the past.


Actually you should tell me what Mayor Ishihara has said in the past. At any rate I have covered this as well. Being wary of political developments in a neighboring nation is only fair. (Although we should also be realistic- this guy you bring up is a MAYOR. America has communist mayors- does that mean America is on the brink of going Red?)
There is a big difference between keeping an eye towards the future and dwelling on the past. RedHare is dwelling on the past.


EDIT: Also, Japan is militarily progressing, the step into Iraq is the beginning of a military build up, this is not fear-mongering or anything, just a statement.


I mentioned that myself actually.


And another thing, Japan still has quite a sizeable fleet, 60+ major surface vessels, you should be interested to note thats more then China's fleet. With all the Hoora about China's military build-up, isn't it interesting to note that Japan has always maintained such a sizeable fleet, even before the Chinese build-up.


I don't find it interesting in the least actually. Japan is an island nation very near 2 nations which could argueably be called super powers (China and Russia). Japan has been a major naval power for the last 100 years, which is only to be expected of a large industrialized island nation.
There is reason to be wary of Japan and to keep an eye on what develops there, but their fleet is scarcely one of those reasons unless they start preparing a major ground force and the naval means to transport it. Without that, and without aircraft carriers, Japans forces would appear to be predominately defensive in nature.



EDIT2: Just a side note, it's funny that this corresponds with the Japanese government just editing a recent textbook on iraq.

1. There changed words from "US unilaterally attacked" to "US attacked Iraq".


You have a problem with them editing their textbooks for FACTUAL ACCURACY and countering a POLITICAL LIE? It's not unilateral when 2 other nations go with you, especially when one of the other nations is on the UN Security Council with you.
I don't like the war, but it's not unilateral. The Japanese have an excellent education system and I'm not surprised that unlike some in America, they would recognize that fact.


2. Removed mentioning of no weapons of mass destruction were ever found.

1 out of 3 aint bad. This is in fact an clear cut case of convenient memory.


3. said that the Japan Self-Defence Force were deployed to a "non-combat areas", instead of a "battlezone".

Japanese forces entered after regular Iraqi forces had been defeated and were employed in non-combat missions. This is a factually accurate statement and is important to include in Japanese textbooks. If it were not included it would imply the creation of a precedent for violating Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution, which ensures pacifism. Would you like for Japanese textbooks to suggest that Japan was once again allowed to undertake aggressive military operations?


LMAO, the last one is the funniest, if it's non-combat, why on Earth are we Australians sending troops to replace the dutch that were protecting them?

Because you can't create a non-combat zone without having a combat zone on the perimeter. Otherwise the enemy will come in and turn your non-combat zone into a combat zone.
My skull is a no baseball zone. So why do I wear a batting helmet when I play baseball if it's a no baseball zone? So the baseball can't enter the no baseball zone. Simple.



To be fair, China has recently yanked a textbook that was i guess, a Chinese version of revisionism (though it did not go nearly as far as Japan's) by a Chinese author. The link is on japantoday, can't get it, it's pop up.


I think ultimately this is exactly the point. Everybody does wrong, everybody twists the story of their wrong-doing. It can't be undone and it can't be absolved just because somebody else did wrong also. All we can do is let the past be past and concern ourselves with the future. There are concerns over Japan's future, but blind hatred by people like RedHare obscure those concerns and present barriers to legitimate and productive discussion of those concerns.



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 06:57 AM
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Last but not least, to claim that Japan's actions are somehow more evil than China's because the Human Beings who they slaughtered mercilessly were citizens of another country instead of their own is nothing but uber-nationalist propaganda. The Chinese government has no more right to slaughter Chinese people than the Japanese government does. Your claim that this can not be compared to an invasion is hogwash- it's politically motivated slaughter, any way you slice it.


This is what I called manipuilation. Where did I say that I support Chinese government of killing their own people? Yes, I am trying heavily to draw a distiction between Chinese government and Japanes invasion simply because this is not about Chinese government. If you open a thread about that I'll happily visit you there.

Please remind me which of my words suggested that I wished an ongoing war between China and Japan like Israel and Palestine? All I ask is an apology to all the victims and their families and appeasement to those grannies whose lives they ruined. And Yes, they deserve a proper compensation for it. This is what I want. Simple direct justice.

I dont think you are following Asian news very well. The statement of someone apologizing you have above is nothing but a joke. They often make statements like that only to deny it the next day. What's the point you ask me? Dunno.

tss tss tss... Another manipulation of my words. Does it make your position any stronger by altering my meanings? As for your information. I am not as young as you think. My parents were forced to leave their home town as refugees. I was borned in a refugees camp just prior to the end of the war. Our lands were burned any possessions robbed, my sisters and brothers and I lived our entire childhood in poverty. What gives you the rights to say Japan never did ANYTHING to me? I am not asking any award money or anything like that and I didnt say, so. So, you can stop painting me as a greedy person. I am pretty well-to-do. All I ask is justice and I do ask for appeasement for those grannies whom at such an old age travels to the land of their oppressors everyear with such a burden on their back. I think they deserve much more then that. I'll not be a hypercrite by not saying what in my mind and I'll say it again and again... Until, sincere apologies and appeasements are given, I'll continue hating Japan with a passion. Yes, you can call me a hate-monger, if ther is a legitimate reason to hate, why not?

p.s. You can reply this one, but I wont say anything more. It has taken too much of my time from sleep. Vagabond, say anything you want just dont twist my words again. Please keep in mind. A thousand year old crime is still a crime.

[edit on 6-4-2005 by RedHare]
[edited to remove large unreplied to quote -nygdan]

[edit on 8-4-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 07:17 AM
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Redhare,

I have to say in Vagabonds defence, he has no need to twist your words.

Your hatred of Japan and the Japanese is stated by you. He has simply quoted it.

Cheers

BHR



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 07:43 AM
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Vagabond.

Hears a sample.



They included Ishihara's assertion that the 1937 Rape of Nanking, in which as many as 300,000 Chinese were slaughtered by Japanese troops, was a "fabrication," and that Japanese aggression rescued Asia from "colonization by white people."


edition.cnn.com...



If Japanese hadn't fought the white people, we would still be slaves of the white people. It would be colonization. We changed that.
- Tokyo Gov Shintaro Ishihara, insisting that Japan need not apologize for its wartime invasion of neighboring Asian countries, arguing that Japan did Asia a favor by delivering it from Western imperialism




"Korea was not invaded by force," Ishihara reportedly told the meeting. "It (colonization) was instigated at their own will because they wanted the help of modernized Japanese people, who are of the same color, at a time when the Korean Peninsula was in confusion and people there needed to choose between Russia, China and Japan (for help)."




One serious problem is that under current laws, we have to deal with issues of human rights and privacy, which will prevent us from taking necessary measures. If terrorists attack Tokyo, I will do whatever I can, bypassing all current laws and regulations.
Tokyo Gov Shintaro Ishihara, on his response to a terrorist attack




"Atrocious crimes have been committed again and again by sangokujin and other foreigners. We can expect them to riot in the event of a disastrous earthquake."

The last time Tokyo had a disastrous earthquake, in 1923, ultranationalist-led mobs took the opportunity to track down and kill thousands of the stricken city’s Korean residents.

Ishihara’s use of the 50-year old derogatory term "sangokujin" (an English-language equivalent would be "'n-word'") is especially disgusting.


BTW, these are not his most famous quotes.

Some of his more famous quotes are akin to;



Ishihara in an October 2001 issue of a weekly magazine for women said: "The worst thing that civilization has brought about can be said to be old women. It is a waste and evil for women to survive after they have lost their reproductive capability. He said this, allegedly citing a scholar, and repeated similar remarks at an metropolitan assembly meeting in December 2001.


"Chinese, Koreans, Russians, etc etc etc are animals"

"All foriegners are animals"

The guy's nickname is IshiHitler

[edit on 6-4-2005 by rapier28]



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 08:12 AM
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Rapier,

There are racist idiots the world over, what is your point?

Cheers

BHR



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Rapier,

There are racist idiots the world over, what is your point?

Cheers

BHR


My point is,

He is the elected Mayor of Tokyo



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 08:19 AM
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Rapier,

Despite your use of capitals (well done on the use of that button, you must be so pleased with yourself), I still fail to understand what you are trying to say here.

Is it that because one man says racist things his whole country is flawed?

If so Australia is in trouble.

Cheers

BHR



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 08:23 AM
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OMG.

BHR, you are impossible to talk to...

My Ishihara thread was only based on a request from Vagabond, i did not make any comment to Japan as a nation or it's people!!!!!!

Please read my previous posts.



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 08:25 AM
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Originally posted by BillHicksRules
There are racist idiots the world over, what is your point


If you read the previous post, you would know that rapier is simply replying Vagabonds post.



Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Your hatred of Japan and the Japanese is stated by you. He has simply quoted it.


you will see I am referring to other statments Vagabond made.

[edit to tighten quotes and remove flame-age -nygdan]


[edit on 8-4-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 08:29 AM
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Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Rapier,

Despite your use of capitals (well done on the use of that button, you must be so pleased with yourself), I still fail to understand what you are trying to say here.

Is it that because one man says racist things his whole country is flawed?

If so Australia is in trouble.

Cheers

BHR


One man's words do not represent the whole country. But the words of an elected mayor of one of the world's most populated city means something else. At least half of Tokyo's citizen are in the same frequency. Think before you reply.



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 08:30 AM
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Redhare,

Thanks for confirming your racist beliefs. It makes it easier to ignore you in the future.

Cheers

BHR



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 08:34 AM
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BillHicksOne, you seem very happy to condemn others on racism but attacked me for stating racist statements made by the Mayor of Tokyo.

The Major of Tokyo was elected twice if my memory serves by the people of Tokyo, let me ask you this, does that not reflect on the consitituency that elected him?



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 08:34 AM
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Originally posted by Neon Haze
I lived in Japan for 1 year and I have to say although the Japanese have different views on things than most of the world, it is fair to say that They like all countries of the world have good and bad.

It's time to clear your eyesight hazy! Sad of you living in Japan for such a year and not understanding the japanese at all. You have complete no idea of their thinking and mentality.

[edited generalized quote and attributions -nygdan]

[edit on 8-4-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 08:46 AM
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Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Redhare,

Thanks for confirming your racist beliefs. It makes it easier to ignore you in the future.

Cheers

BHR


.I am an Asian and so is Japanese, so technically I am not a racist.

What about my belief? Does it make me a saint if I turn around and kiss Japanese's arss for murdering millions of innocent Chinese civilians? Besides Japan, there is no racism in Asia only nationalism. So, dont pull that crap on me. Racism is a very western thing.
Think before you reply

[edit on 6-4-2005 by RedHare]

[edit on 6-4-2005 by RedHare]

[edit on 6-4-2005 by RedHare]



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 08:52 AM
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Redhare,

Hating a race for the fact that they are that race is racism.

You can delude yourself by calling in "nationalism" but the rest of us know the truth.

Cheers

BHR

[edit on 6-4-2005 by BillHicksRules]





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