Alchemy and the Babylon Battery

Considering the fact that the batteries in babylon were used for electroplating jewellry is it possible that this gave rise to the idea of being able to turn lead into gold?

Its possible that traders from Europe and Asia could have seen this without understanding the process, thereby spreading the idea that lead could become gold.

That's a very astute observation. You may be right, because short of magic, it is not possible to turn lead into gold.

I've never heard of the 'babylon battery', but there was a find called the 'baghdad battery'. It would have functioned as a battery, since it had the right chemical makeup. Nothing has ever been found (that I am aware of) that the battery would have been used in conjunction with, however. If anyone has any proof that either of these batteries were used to electroplate jewelry, (i.e. links to ancient electroplated jewelry would be ideal) or used for anything else, for that matter, I would love to see them.

From what I understand, some "batteries" were found in the pyramids as well. I remember seeing a documentary a while ago that showed a stone wall with Egyptian picture carvings, in one corner were pictures of the "batteries" and a snake was leading from the batteries to what looked like a small hot air balloon. They believed it was a primative light bulb. They believed it was used for lighting tunnels and underground passages in the area. The main reason for that theory (besides the batteries and the picture of the "light bulb") was that the tunnels and passages where they were searching has nowhere to place torches or any other lighting impliment (such as other dark places do).

Also I would like to suggest that the batteries might have been used to power up the Pharoes version of the "ark of the covenant". Where do you think Moses got his idea to build his. There are many Egyptian carvings with "ark like" images in them.

Curious... does anyone know the output of one of those batteries, and what you could get out of it if you hooked it up to a capacitor???

Dragon the babylonain batteries and the baghdad batteries are the same thing, just me getting the names wrong.

The current you get from this battery is around 0.5 volts. If 12 were linked together you could electroplate jewellery.

And i really should make clear that this isnt my idea, i read a book on the subject that had this in and wanted to see what others thought, should really have made that clear in the first post.

Originally posted by menjo
Also I would like to suggest that the batteries might have been used to power up the Pharoes version of the "ark of the covenant". Where do you think Moses got his idea to build his. There are many Egyptian carvings with "ark like" images in them.
Curious... does anyone know the output of one of those batteries, and what you could get out of it if you hooked it up to a capacitor???

I saw a theory on TV once (TLC or Discovery I think, it was awhile ago) that Moses may have used electricity with the Ark, and that he had learned it from his time in Egypt. There was some guy in the Bible that tried to steady the Ark when it was falling over, and he was instantly killed, which could have been caused by a large electrical current.

As for the capacitor, well, this happens to be your lucky day, since I am studying electrical engineering, I know a little bit about capacitors Capacitors wouldn't have been very hard to build in ancient times (certainly easier than batteries!) You could make a parallel plate capacitor out of two pieces of metal and an insulator. The energy that can be stored in a capacitor is related to voltage, size of capacitor, and the type of material used as a dielectric, and the thickness of the dielectric.

I did the math though (I won't bore you with it) but using 12 of those batteries, a 1 square meter parallel plate, and a 5mm dielectric of water (the best dielectric value I could find that ancient peoples would have had) the energy stored is about 2.5 microjoules. (1 joule = 1 million microjoules) In contrast, if you drop a 1 gram weight from a height of 1 millimeter, you get 9.8 microjoules of energy. Basically, the way the formulas work, the voltage is the most important factor in determining how much energy you can store in a capacitor. So, basically, the long answer to menjo's question, "what could you get out if it if you hooked it up to a capacitor", is 'not much'.

The comment Uncle Joe has about electroplating jewelry: I don't know the exact values, but 12 of those batteries should be in the right neighbourhood to get the job done. Back in grade school, one kid for a science fair set up a booth where he electroplated coins and stuff, it's not very hard to do, if you have the know-how.

I had a look through my old chemistry textbook. I'm a little rusty on this, so I may be in error, but it looks like you only need 4 of those batteries to plate lead with gold. This could be done with very little equipment technologically; the hardest part would have been getting the gold to provide the plating, and even that wouldn't be hard if you had money, so it is certainly a possibility that ancient civilizations could have done this.

One last thing (sorry for length of post, it happens when I get academic, lol) How prevalent is the myth about turning lead into gold? If people really did 'turn lead into gold' via electroplating, you'd think reports of this would have spread. My question is, did they? The more widespread this myth, the more likely it is (IMO) that it may have some basis in fact.

Myths about turning lead into gold have always flowed around Europe, naturally monarchs want a source of perpetual wealth.

Over time the idea be came mingled with the idea of immortality in the philospohers stone.

As for electroplating in my chemistry classes i electroplated a small model of the eiffel tower using an eight volt current.

it doesnt make sense that these batteries were used for electroplating, you would need more of them, and then you would need some sort of conducting 'wire', if you ask me its a party toy, like liking a battery.

i love the idea of alchemyi still think somehow its possible, but i think you need to be skeptic first wishful second

Mercury (quicksilver) is one of two substances known to the ancients that bonds with gold. Mercury is used today in gold refining. The mercury bonds with gold, and can be made to release it by heating the amalgam or exposing it to electrical current.

Perhaps ancient "batteries were for refining gold, rather than electroplating jewelry.

The other substance that reacts with gold, incedentally is aqua regia, a mix of Hydorchloric and Nitric acids. An electrical current might change the rate of reaction between aqua regia and gold.

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
As for the capacitor, well, this happens to be your lucky day, since I am studying electrical engineering, I know a little bit about capacitors

Capacitors wouldn't have been very hard to build in ancient times (certainly easier than batteries!) You could make a parallel plate capacitor out of two pieces of metal and an insulator. The energy that can be stored in a capacitor is related to voltage, size of capacitor, and the type of material used as a dielectric, and the thickness of the dielectric.

That's interesting DragonsDemesne, mind if I ask a question ?

What value of Cap did you come up with using water ?

I used Maple wood with a dc of 4.4, and one inch for the distance between the plates, and got a cap of .00000000824625308 farads or 8246.25308 pico farads...

Using this formula...

C=8.85x.00000000001xDCxA
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D


[edit on 8-4-2005 by Jedi_Master]

Ok I guess I WILL bore you with the math, lol, since Jedi asked about it . I did use the same formula as you Jedi, C = 8.85x10^-12 * DC * A / D. I used 5mm for the D, so about 1/5 of an inch, so my value would be 5x higher right there. I used 1 square meter for the area both because that's a pretty big capacitor, and I figured there was no way could they be bigger than that (assuming they even had capacitors). The DC on water at 20 degrees celsius is 80.4. The table I used also had water at 25 degrees, but the DC was lower, only 78.5. (I used 80.0 in my calculation)

My capacitance was thus C = 8.85x10^-12 * 80 * 1 / 0.005 = 0.1416 microfarads. You didn't post what area you used, but I reverse-calculated your value and got 5.29 square meters. So, my dielectric constant is 18x yours, my area is 1/5 yours, and my plate separation is 1/5 yours, roughly. My capacitance is 17.17x bigger than yours. (Incidentally, that's one huge capacitor, in terms of physical size, I thought mine was big ) Mine did end up having a higher capacitance though, despite yours being larger, since water has a much higher DC than wood.

The biggest values on my little table (only about a dozen materials) were Titania ceramic (DC = 130) and Strontium titanate (DC = 310). The next biggest were water at 80.4 and 78.5. I'm not familiar with T.C. or S.T, so I don't know if ancient peoples could have obtained them or not, but I knew they had water so I used that.

Hope that clears it up.

(edit to fix crappy grammar)

[edit on 8-4-2005 by DragonsDemesne]

Thanks...

Yea I used the whole box area for the cap...

Reason I went with wood was the ark was supposed to be built of arcadia (sp) wood, and I don't know what type of wood that is, so went with maple, because of as far as I know it has the highest DC for wood...

As far as the battery goes, who knows ?



[edit on 9-4-2005 by Jedi_Master]

i have read a article about the ark of covenant. its says that the ark of cevenant is actually a huge capapacitor that stores a high energry of voltages. that is why the ark is made of gold and copper ( i think ) on both ends. i remember that was said that only the a certain tribes can hold this ark and it if u touched it u will be strike by lighting thus killing u.

In the article i read this certain tribes or groups wears a rubber/leather footwar thus insulationg them from the ground allowing them to safely touch the ark. and the others do not wears such.

Mythbusters recreated the Baghdad battery and it was on the Discovery Channel. Mejo, the ancient Egyptians could have also used highly polished mirrors to reflect light into the tunnels so they could see. I was a big proponet on the battery subject until I saw Myth Busters. Although I'm sure there could have been bigger batteries made that we haven't found yet. The "Ark" being one is quite an interesting thought though.

Originally posted by IComeWithASword
That's a very astute observation. You may be right, because short of magic, it is not possible to turn lead into gold.

Not impossible.

If you could cause a nuclear reaction or use a particle accelerator and cleave 3 protons off of a lead atom, you would get gold.

Not a very practical way of doing it, and in the end, if you had the means to do it, you would likely end up with a trace amount of gold and numerous other elements from the lead.

[edit on 30-4-2005 by Hajduk]

Hi! I wanted to ask the EEs something even though is been almost five years since this topic started. Can you use these baghdad batteries for power if there is a shut off from the electric grid due to some catastrophe? Or would you be better off making a generator from a gas powered lawmower? Anybody know? I know there are directions on how to make that type of gererator on the web. Those of us with wells need generators when the power goes off, to have water. The expensive generators run $2000.00.

Originally posted by frugal
Hi! I wanted to ask the EEs something even though is been almost five years since this topic started. Can you use these baghdad batteries for power if there is a shut off from the electric grid due to some catastrophe?

You don't need to be an engineer to answer this.

No, you can't. First off, the battery makes DC current. What do your appliances run on?

Second, the battery would produce only a fraction of a volt. That's like about a third of a AAA battery from Duracell. Try running your lights on that.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


Keep in mind, to produce the current they needed to make some changes to the structure of the "battery".

LoL, turning lead into gold is a continuing allegory of the perfection of man, which can only be obtained by a refined society. Hence lead becomes gold. Due to the spawn of chemistry, early adepts to the mysteries believed that just as a mans mind could be shaped and molded to a higher form, then so should the actual lesser metals be able to be turned into noble metals. The Chemistry part is made public to the masses but no correlation for a 1000 years to the Societal aspect of the same teachings.

People were mislead into believing it was about turning phisical material into a higher form and all the while they were being slowly led up the ladder.

Research Mystery Babylon, or Mystery Schools and the world will begin to make sense. Man has been playing god for sometime......

Originally posted by SoundTheory
LoL, turning lead into gold is a continuing allegory of the perfection of man, which can only be obtained by a refined society.
_______________

People were mislead into believing it was about turning phisical material into a higher form and all the while they were being slowly led up the ladder.

Research Mystery Babylon, or Mystery Schools and the world will begin to make sense. Man has been playing god for sometime......

here! here!

but it's still amusing to see threads like this.