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Is Time An Illusion or a Reality?

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posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 11:25 PM
Is/was time a man-made creation? Is time necessary for us to live our lives? Is it a good or bad thing that time exists?

Will there be day in the future when time is no longer needed?

posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 02:16 AM
Well, I used to be a lot shorter, unable to walk or speak, and I cried alot. My mom carried me around, and I slept in a crib.

Time definitely exists. Every method of measuring it, however, is man-made.

There is no such thing as a "year". Or rather, a "year" is defined as the amount of time it takes the Earth to circle the sun one time.

Without the Earth as a point of reference, the term is meaningless.

Assume that the inhabitants of any planet would define the time it takes their planet to circle their star as 1 year. The amount of time being defined would vary from planet to planet, depending on how long the respective journey was.

But I think time is constant. Take a stopwatch (on Earth), let it run for an earthyear. This is roughly 31536000 seconds.

Now go to one of those other planets. Let 31536000 seconds run by. This is still 1 year (earthyear), but on any other planet it's likely a meaningless length of time. Like how 242 days holds no value to us.

I'm starting to confuse myself.

My point is Time exists, but measurement of it is relative.
We break it up into pieces which are meaningful to us, but have no universal meaning.

posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 03:16 AM
Lunchtime doubly so.

The "fourth dimension" is the best way to put it in simple physics. It is a dimension that is essentially exactly like the other three. Let's say you are observing an object's motion from a fifth dimension. Its movement through the dimension of time would be identical to its movement through the other dimensions.

posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 05:24 AM
Time was the first true symbol

posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 07:38 AM
A few months ago Discover Magazine did a main feature on Does Time Exist. Very interesting read...although my brain locked up 4 times while reading was still a good read. Is time an actual something or is it just something we conjured up. There is a guy in England in the article that I believe had taken the stance that time does not exist etc etc...owwww, there goes my brain again....damn these state colleges

posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 12:46 PM
I would say time does exist but its probably a lot different to how we think of it. Maybe it doesn't increase at a constant rate.

1 Year = Earth orbits the sun
1 Month = Time taken for moon to complete a full cycle
1 Day = Earth completes 1 rotation on its axis
Hours, minutes and seconds i think are man-made probably coming from ancient civilzations where maths was based on '60' which was considered a special number (Sumerians - Anu was ranked 60).
I don't know where weeks came from??

A moving clock ticks slower than a stationary one. Someone moving will age less than some who is stationary. The difference is barely noticeable until you start getting close to the speed of light. Astronauts who have spent a few hundred days in space orbiting Earth are younger than they would have been if they had stayed on Earth (although the difference can only be measured in milliseconds). Time is based on whoever is observing it so one person's past could be another's persons future.

posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 12:48 PM

Read that to get an idea of why humans perceive time, how animals may perceive time and why, but also, theoretically, how beings on a higher level than humans may perceive time as a result of understanding the level of human perception and that of the animals and even lower.

Essentially, it makes a very good point when talking about the perception of animals, and that they only see reality in 2 dimentions and the 3rd one is seen as "motion" or "time", but not understood as a dimention that exists as a constant in "space" so to speak (this is REALLY well explained in the article in the link, but you'd have to read all of it, it is indeed fascinating to think about). Humans see reality in 2 dimentions as well, but we use our mind to UNDERSTAND that our perception is actually wrong and so we add the 3rd dimention mentally, and we perceive the 4th dimention as "motion" or "time".

So in theory, a being with a perception higher than ours will see as a "constant" and "cyclical" what we now see as "linear". And what we perceive as cyclical (3rd-dimentional motions like sun orbiting around the earth) will be perceived as linear by animals (new sun comes around every morning).

Mathematically, dimentions are defined as "spacial vectors" where each dimention exists perpendicularly to all the other dimentions. So if 1st dimention is a line, then 2nd dimention is a flat plain which now contains a whole new "direction" perpendicular to any 1st-dimentional line. 3rd dimention is like a cube which has a turn perpendicular to the first 2 dimentions, namely, "height". 4th dimention will have the same "turn" which is perpendicular to the other 3 dimentions, something that we cannot perceive (yet).

And it is theorized that we sense the 4th dimention as something "temporal", so instead of perceiving that 4th dimention as a real existing constant in space that can be consciously accessed and seen at will, we experience it as "motion" through the other 3 dimentions, same as the animals perceive the 3rd dimention as "motion" through the other 2 dimentions (you'd again have to read the link above and really think outside the box to "get" this concept, cuz it is literally mind boggling for a human to conceive, but not too hard if you try). But once you get the gist of this, it shines a whole new light on the concept that "time is an illusion", because if you think about it, if you were able to perceive ALL the dimentions that are possible to perceive, then you'd not have any "temporal" dimentions, in other words, there would be no such thing as "motion", you'd simply see ALL possibilities simultaneously from every possible perspective that they can possibly be perceived, in one infinite "whole" where no part is "separate" from anything else (there are actually a few ways to approach this idea, and it is constantly reaffirming itself). Another way is to think about the concept of infinity itself, and the process of "creating something new" and how that can possibly happen given an infinite timespan of existance.

So interestingly, what we call "the future" and "the past" can exist simultaneously, we just have no control and no ability to access them right now, we're "trapped" in this illusion of temporal motion which we perceive as "time". But then the question becomes, what about the beings that may be higher level than us and do NOT perceive time as we do, how would they possibly interact with us, how would we see them, how would they see us?

It is reasonable to suggest that they may interact with us in a similar manner with which we interact with the animal world. So we would likely be some sort of "resource" to them, not some "intelligent race to make contact/friends/enemies with" any more than we try to make contact with wolves or squirrels or snails in the forest. The question is, is there evidence to suggest that this IS taking place, and that we ARE a "hyperdimentional chicken coop" and are "cultivated" or "planted/removed/manipulated" every now and then by something else? Well, considering the entities ability to travel through "time" at will because they no longer perceive time as we do so it's not real for them, they may be able to manipulate our race at any point in "time" from our perspective, maybe at certain pivotal moments of their choosing, to alter the course of our history to suit their needs. And once again, the question becomes, is there evidence of this happening at all? Can this hypothesis be proven?

There are no smoking guns that can PROVE this to be a fact (yet), but the more I think about and research the human condition throughout history and the structure of our society and our beliefs, thoughts, ideologies, actions, and very lives it becomes increasingly clear that we are in a giant system of control which includes every aspect of our existance on this planet. But who is doing the "controlling"? That's a very good question, something very hard to answer, but very intruguing nontheless.

Perhaps the nature of these UFO's we see, the "grays" that are supposedly operating them, and maybe even the mythical "reptillians" is something other than what most "conspiracy theorists" usually propose, simply because their nature may be outside the scope of our ability to understand or perceive. An animal cannot accurately theorize about the nature of humans and their interaction with the animal world - they can see certain "effects" of our interaction, but just what sorts of beings we are and why we do what we do is going to be incomprehensible for them. But this doesn't mean WE can't have some CLUE as to the nature of these "beings", it does not have to be clear understanding of their nature and how they do what they do and why, but if we can get SOME idea at least, maybe it would help us understand ourselves better, how we fit into the "big picture" as a race, and this understanding may provide us with a choice that we didn't have before - to continue being slaves or maybe try to work on a way to free ourselves.

Of course each person would have to make this choice only for himself based on his own understanding and perspective, so we cannot make this choice "as a race" - to each his own as they say. And of course, people will not be aware of this choice unless they become aware of their "situation" as it is objectively, and this is something once again that can only be discovered through personal initiative and effort, it is not exactly being "taught in schools".

Anyways, maybe the truth IS stranger than fiction after all...


[edit on 5-4-2005 by lilblam]

posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 03:39 PM
Cool thanks for the information, About time I think I will have to agree with everyone else on this one....Time is probally more of a dimension that what we precieve it as.

If time is a dimension how is it measured ? Do we pass through us, do we sail through it like a boat on the sea :S URGH my head hurts.

posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 04:08 PM
Reality has alot more of an impact on me than time for example, but since people allow time to influence their reality, it has become a multiple influence.

Work, entertainment, sports, any aspect that it is a part of makes it that much more real. Kids have almost no grasp of the concept of time, where as adults, it goes by faster and faster as we age.

Time is a creation of measure, used to determine our position around the solar center aka our sun. Time is just a calender of the day, instead of the month.

That is how I see it at least.

posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 05:09 PM
Of coarse time exist just as space exist (unless you think space does not exist, then my postceeding arguement is moot). Without this concept where would we be? Time is not based on the revolving patterns of the earth alone but of any set of intervals. Notice that it can take an 3 isotopes of tridium an average of 2 years to decay in my laboratory at home, this is measured out as the life of the isotope, this measurement cannot be taken apart from either of the two, the two being its existence and the time it takes not to, as both space and time are intertwined, thus the term 'spacetime' is birthed. Which physicist, and young physicist as myself, will argue to be the fabric of our existence.

There was a book published by two outstanding physicist, Edwin Taylor and John Wheeler, in the 1960's called 'Spacetime Phyiscs'; aquire this book, read it, and repost your thoughts on whether it is illusion or reality. For what is an illusion and what is reality? Descartes said "You think therefore you are", should this concept not include time? I don't think so.

posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 05:19 PM

Originally posted by nibiru
I would say time does exist but its probably a lot different to how we think of it. Maybe it doesn't increase at a constant rate.

1 Year = Earth orbits the sun
1 Month = Time taken for moon to complete a full cycle
1 Day = Earth completes 1 rotation on its axis
Hours, minutes and seconds i think are man-made probably coming from ancient civilzations where maths was based on '60' which was considered a special number (Sumerians - Anu was ranked 60).
I don't know where weeks came from??

a week comes from the bible 6 days to create plus 1 day of rest, =7 days aka a week.

posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 06:00 PM
Time and space are modes by which we think and not conditions in which we live. -Albert Einstein

posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 08:07 PM

Originally posted by racos
If time is a dimension how is it measured ? Do we pass through us, do we sail through it like a boat on the sea :S URGH my head hurts.

I think time may not be a dimention in and of itself, but it is simply the way we perceive that dimention, it is our way to interpret it based on our level of awareness.

Sort of like looking at a circle and thinking it is a circle (like the moon in the sky) when it may actually be a sphere. But unless you know the moon is a sphere, you can't really tell just by looking at it. Or seeing a square and not realising that it is actually a cube because you cannot see around it and see that it has "depth", which is a 3rd dimentional concept. So how would a being that can only understand 3 dimentions perceive the 4th dimention, if it exists? Well, it wouldn't, it has no capability to fathom or perceive it, but it MAY be represented as something else entirely, like maybe "time" etc. Just a thought.

posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 08:08 PM
rationally time is the creator of all things.

It creates every particle, every change of every particle.

It is the master.

Darn it must be VERY busy, . . . . always.

It could be mechanistic at its heart.
If you could understand/comprehend it and VERY carefully manipulate it you could direct events in the Universe.

I bet it is a very fluid effect.

It is speculated that very early in the first instant or two of the Big Bang, Time was a physical dimension.

Maybe that implies it is geometry falling in on itself.
3 of the 4 dimensions falling/flowing in on the 4th.

All events require time.
In a sense maybe it is actually a rotation of perspective instead of actual change of dimensional relationships. [even rotation includes time]

perhaps time is the dimension that sacrificed itself so we all [and everything] could exist.
time is feeding itself to the other dimensions.

was it willing or was it predation?

[edit on 5-4-2005 by slank]

posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 08:28 PM

Originally posted by quango

Now go to one of those other planets. Let 31536000 seconds run by. This is still 1 year (earthyear), but on any other planet it's likely a meaningless length of time. Like how 242 days holds no value to us.

I've always wondered that, say if we start colonising other planets, what happens to our ages? For example Pluto takes a lot more years to travel round the sun (dont quite know how many earth years). That applies to 'time travel' too

posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Frosty
Of coarse time exist just as space exist (unless you think space does not exist, then my postceeding arguement is moot).

But does it exist objectively or is it just an illusion that our minds perceive because of our own level of awareness? Would a tree perceive "space" or "time"? Would an insect? And if there is no such thing as time, could there even be such a thing as space? If speed is equal to space/time and time is made to be 0 (if it doesn't exist), then speed would become infinity, which would imply that you can be ANYWHERE and EVERYWHERE simultaneously, which in effect would render space non-existant, or rather it would simply become another "absolete concept" that no longer has any meaning since it so heavily depends on the existance of a "time".

Also, considering that what you perceive as space is only a 3-dimentional perception, what about 4-dimentional or 5-dimentional space? Would you even call it space then, or would it be something entirely different which has no analagous correlation to what you now perceive as "space"? Also, the existance of time creates an inherent contradiction which suggests to me that if time exists then nothing can exist, and since something does exist, then time must be an illusion, or rather, a simultaneous existance of all possibilities in an infinite number of possible realities which only SEEM to "change" because our consciousness focuses on these different potentials to make them into a "reality". Kinda like putting a video tape into VCR and pressing "play", even though the entire movie is already there, we're just choosing to watch it one frame at a time.

I know I explained this idea already like a year ago in a thread here but let me quickly summarize it here.

Since something exists (and something, in some form, DOES exist, because I think/perceive something, even if it is unclear WHAT I am seeing or what I am, the point is that if I can PERCEIVE and THINK, even if it is all an illusion, it still exists as an illusion, it is a SOMETHING not a NOTHING), then something has ALWAYS existed. Why has something always existed? Because something can never come out of nothing. If there was ever absolute nothingness, meaning, nothing at all exists at any level shape or form, then nothing would eternally exist. Since something exists, then SOMETHINIG (regardless of what it is) has ALWAYS existed! Meaning, there is no BEGINNING to existance itself, because beginning implies a point of "coming into being" or "point of creation" - and NOTHING does not have the resources or capability to create ANYTHING, so SOMETHING has always ALWAYS existed).

Ok so why do I say time cannot exist? Because if something has eternally existed (and it must have for anything to ever exist), then at any point in time, there will always be an infinity of time in the past behind it. So that means, if we exist here and now, then there is an infinite past of existance of some sort behind us. But there is a fundemental problem with this - an eternity cannot exist behind us in the past, because this implies that we "went through eternity of time" to get to where we are now, but we cannot go through eternity because as soon as you go through eternity it is no longer eternity, it then is actually something finite.

And of course the problem is, in order for anything to exist at any point in time, there HAS TO BE an infinity of time behind it in the past, since we determined that there cannot be a BEGINNING to all of creation, since something can never come out of nothing. And once again, if there is an infinity of time behind us in the past (and there must be!), it is impossible, because then it would not be infinity since infinity cannot be reached.

So my conclusion is, if time DOES exist, then in order for anything to exist, infinity of time must've been reached, considering there is no beginning to existance. I hope it is apparent by now that there is definite contradiction there, something that needs to be resolved.

One possible resolution to this contradiction is that time is an illusion, and that there is no "timeline" at all, and that all things exist simultaneously in 0 time, so an infinite number of possibilities all exist as an infinite potential, and it is when consciousness (creative force, God, whatever you wanna call it) focuses upon itself, does anything really "come into existance", even though it is only an illusion which is created in the "mind" of the observer, or the consciousness that is focusing its perception on a certain potentiality.

Of course I can be wrong, or partially wrong, or maybe I am right - there are no absolute guarantees in anything, absolute conviction does not help determine the truth of anything, and the only way to really learn and understand our reality is to always remain open to being wrong and constantly questioning all things and checking and rechecking the data, and seeing if your hypothesis can be verified. If there is a problem, we must not get attached to these hypothesis and make them into beliefs, and must be ready to just toss the out the window and make new ones if reality does not match what we initially assumed it was.

These are just some thoughts I had. One thing I understand is, what we see is NOT necessarily what really is, and we can easily be deceived by all sorts of mirages and illusions and misconceptions and biases both philosophically, esoterically, and literally speaking, so just because we perceive something as "time" and "space" does not mean it really exists just as we perceive it to exist.

And it would be rather presumptuous and foolish to declare something as "real" because our senses, which are so often wrong, say it is. People tried that with the whole "flat earth" idea at some point, and eventually that assumption had to be "let go".

What would earth look like for an entity that can perceive reality in 4 dimentions? Would it be spherical or something else entirely? Considering our eyes only see the surfaces of all things, and not things as they really are (inside and out and from all sides), we already have direct knowledge that our eyes deceive us all the time.

Anyways, approaching the idea of "time" can be done through different methods as I said earlier, and at least for me, it always leads to it being an illusion. What is the exact nature of this illusion, why is it there, and if it is an illusion, then what is reality, and is there even such a thing as "reality" or is everything an illusion and depends on the observer? I think the latter is true, that your perception of what is reality depends on your knowledge and level of awareness, and when you grow out of a certain level of awareness, then the past level becomes an absolete illusion, and you realise that it never really existed, you just weren't able to see beyond it.

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