Do you have any question about *Jihad* ???

Originally posted by shots
With that said, I would like to know where their statements are stating this is in fact the truth. I do not know about you but I have only seen a few statements issued by a limited number of their religious leaders that actually have condemned Osma and his gang of thugs, therefore his answer is wrong or he only thinks that is the case.

A perfectly reasonable question, as well. So why not ask it? This was not the question I saw, but rather harping on the fact he didn't know what "cleric" meant.

For what it's worth, I'd like to know the answer to the question as well, as I have not personally heard many clerics openly state opposition to the "washabies" (still not certain what that means). However, my desire to know would be more on behalf of defense against future ignorant people (especially the kind I run across in the deep south).

Originally posted by shots
I do not know about you but I do think that it is wrong to go around and post information as if it is true when in fact it is false.

I couldn't agree more. However, he may not have made a false statement. How many mosques have either of us attended recently? How many of the Clerical speeches have we listened to? I'm going to hazard a guess that the user, Islam, has attended far more than either of us combined.

Perhaps he speaks of small gatherings, like what is taught in mosques, and not what is touted by the head clerics in each country? Or perhaps those statements have even been made, but have not made the news.

Originally posted by shots
Just use a little common sense here, if what he said was true why haven't we heard about it. Surely you are not going to suggest that the government or media are trying to cover up those statesments are you?

I wouldn't say they are trying to cover it up, but perhaps it's just not newsworthy. How many people would turn on the news to hear a story about how "So'N'So declared that Bin Ladin was a Bad Man", vs. "Car Bomb Kills Busload of Nuns".

Even so, just because we haven't heard about it, doesn't mean it's not being said, it could very well mean we're not listening in the right places, or the right language.

He's already presented ample evidence in the form of religious texts to show that terrorism is not an acceptable practice in the eyes of Muslims. Acts of war are, but only in certain circumstances.

I guess what I'm saying is, give him the chance to answer the question, rather than focusing on his English skills. If the response he gives doesn't suit, then perhaps ask it a different way, in simpler terms, such as:

"Can you provide some links or quotes from Islamic religious leaders in recent times that condemn the acts of terrorism by those extremists such as Bin Ladin"

NO!
But lying is allowed in only 2 situations:

1. During the war because the result of a war or a battle depends mainly on how smart and foxy the leader is.

2. To lie (in limit) to solve a conflict between two guys. For example, if you know that Mike and John are in conflict, you can go to John and tell him that Mike likes you and he talks good about you and the same thing for Mike.

Hmmm...interesting...

So with what is happening in the ME right now, it would be ok for say, an Islamic newspaper/reporter to lie about what is going on ??

Originally posted by shots
With that said, I would like to know where their statements are stating this is in fact the truth. I do not know about you but I have only seen a few statements issued by a limited number of their religious leaders that actually have condemned Osma and his gang of thugs, therefore his answer is wrong or he only thinks that is the case.

A perfectly reasonable question, as well. So why not ask it?

I did in fact i rephrased it, I can only assume you missed that post.

He's already presented ample evidence in the form of religious texts to show that terrorism is not an acceptable practice in the eyes of Muslims. Acts of war are, but only in certain circumstances.

The text nor the content have nothing to do with the question asked. I understand what he is claiming but that does not answer my question.

If the response he gives doesn't suit, then perhaps ask it a different way, in simpler terms, such as:

Uhm as I already stated I did rephrase the question you know the one you missed. You will find it on pg8 of this thread

"Can you provide some links or quotes from Islamic religious leaders in recent times that condemn the acts of terrorism by those extremists such as Bin Ladin"

NP

Cairo's Al Azhar University - the most respected institution of religious learning in the Muslim world - has issued a fatwa, or religious edict, advising "all Muslims in the world to make 'jihad' against invading American forces". The statement warned that Islam itself is the direct target of the "new crusaders' invasion", aimed at humiliating and subjugating Arabs and controlling their resources.

www.theage.com.au...

Here is one that took them a year before they condemned Osamaand that was not for Iraq or 911 it was only over Spain.

One year AFTER the deadly train bombings in Spain. Muslim clerics FINALLY condemn Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda for terrorist attacks. (Whether or not the 9/11 attack is also being denounced remains unclear. But then again we haven't surrendered yet, so an apology is probably not forthcoming.) Only one year to get an apology. No wonder most Muslim countries remain locked in the 13th century
Source

In reality what he is claiming is very hard to find since there are very few but I have seen several. If you want more why not google them?

I have better things to do then try and prove his point for him. I did not make the statement he did, therefore the burden of proof lies on him not me to prove it is true.




[edit on 4/22/2005 by shots]

The Muslim "leaders" did speak out about September the 11th, I was at a conference in England where that happened in October of 2001. I also know several muslims who have been to Pakistan and they teach against OBL. I'm sorry to inform you, but they did speak out - they just stopped once America began to boss around Iran and then invade Iraq. That's when the Muslim world stopped speaking out. You might wish to ask:

"Why did the Muslim Countries that are Allied to America not speak out about September the 11th compaired to several who're part of the Axis of Evil that did?" because I'd like an answer to that.

Islam, I'm actually not a Muslim but I grew up with a lot of Muslims in England, I've actually been to meetings with leading members of the Islamic Society of Britain and I've spoken on several University Lectures on Militant Islam, which is why I find this topic almost funny.

I'll start writing up a response to a lot of the questions, if it's O.K. by you Islam, and put a "Western Islamic" view on it, from someone who's never been able to go to the Middle East to witness any of the teachings. It's your choice if you let me do this or not?

Take care.

Originally posted by Odium

Islam, I'm actually not a Muslim but I grew up with a lot of Muslims in England, I've actually been to meetings with leading members of the Islamic Society of Britain and I've spoken on several University Lectures on Militant Islam, which is why I find this topic almost funny.

Well if you are not Muslim or and expert on Islam then you are not the person to ask I would say.

I grew up with a bunch of Germans and Italians, does that make me an expert on them No of course not and the same applies to anyone who is not an actual Muslim or and expert .



[edit on 4/22/2005 by shots]

JohnM, you're relatively new, so I'm going to take it easier on you than I would otherwise.

Here we go again with atss

We don't stand for the kind of crap you posted here. I have a mind to send in a warning, but to be honest, I'm not much for tattle-tales myself, so instead I'll address the problems with your post, and hope you are mature enough to take the criticism like a man, and improve your posts in the future.

1.) If you had read the thread (I believe it was even on page 1) you would see he has immigrated to Florida from the Syrian Arab Republic. If you had used logic, you could deduce that he is not neccesarily an American citizen, or that if he is, he still considers Syria his homeland. If you had used wisdom, you would have relized this question was completely uneccesary. I can say "My People" do not have internet access, referring to the Sac & Fox reservation in Oklahoma, while I myself live in Texas.

2.) Your snide remark about his English is both abrasive and inflammatory. Perhaps you should learn to converse in Arabic. Or are the only people capable of holding conversation those who speak fluent English? I think his command of the English language is admirable. How well is your grasp of his language? Or any other language for that matter?

3.) What about the links and quotes upsets you? This is a discussion about questions on jihad and Islam. Most of the people having questions are not going to have a Qu'ran or Sunnah handy, nor are they going to be familiar with the teachings in anything other than a 2nd or 3rd hand fashion. The user Islam is providing evidence to support his contentions. Something that I wish everyone here would do. If people supporting their claims with evidence is something that gets your goat, I suggest you find some other forum to frequent.

4.) I won't bother questioning whether or not you are "Psychic", but I'm sure there's an equal number of people here who could claim they are psychic, and are thus able to tell that you are not psychic. Amazing! No proof needed! Your Psychic Powers have zero credibility in a forum such as this. If you're going to call BS, you'd best have an educated reason.

5.) As for the brainiacs getting had, I suggest you re-evaluate your position. Even if one were to assume the user Islam was not from Syria, and wasn't even Muslim, they have displayed a solid knowledge of the Qu'ran and the situations in those countries. Bias notwithstanding, there is nothing "had" about discussing the Muslim concept of "jihad" with such a person.

6.) Finally, regarding your termite comment, I have no idea if that was in reference to people allegedly being from other countries, people defending the Muslim faith, or posts, or what you meant. And I have no idea where your termite comparison is warranted. Islam has been polite, has withstood a number of very rude, unwarranted comments, and answered all questions to the best of his ability.

I am not a moderator, I am not any sort of enforcer on this board. But JohnM, your comments are absolutely uncalled for, unneeded, unwanted, and if this is really the sort of person you are, I'd say the same for your presence on ATS. If it was simply a slip up, and you didn't realize it, or didn't know better, then I would suggest apologizing to Islam.


I will say whatever I want to say. This is America and I hope you will excuse and respect my right to free speech. Your reply does not criticize me it only shows your bigotry.

[edit on 23-4-2005 by JohnM]

Thank you for sharing with us some of the view points of the islamic faith or religion.

I would like to share with you some of the view points of the Christian Crusader.

1. The Cristian Crusader thinks cutting the clitoris out of all your young girls extrememly barbaric, evil, demented, and insane. And that those who perform that surgery should be skined alive by their eyeballs and wrapped in the hide of a pig.

2. The Cristian Crusader thinks making 20 young school girls die in a fire because they dont have scarves on is out of this world evil, cruel, insane, unjust, and the work of Satan. That man should be burned alive and fed to hogs.

3. The Cristian Crusader thinks killing your sister to protect family "honor" is another extremely barbaric, cruel and sadistict act. It would be better to shoot yourself in the head and send your sister to america.

4. The Christian Crusader thinks killing your 7 daughters because they were not boys is a totally insane and stupid thing to do, not to mention the fact that they could have produced 10 - 20 grand sons. This man should be drawn and quartered.

The Crusader is alive and well in the world. He considerers muslemen to be dirt, disgusting, barbaric and lower than cow dung.

These are not my opinions but the feelings of your average Christian Crusader.

Just thought I'd share them with you.

Once again I will not tolerate any attack on my right to free speech.

[edit on 23-4-2005 by JohnM]

Originally posted by Islam
3. Oppisite of Jihad is Peace and Tolerance with those who are
- not harming Muslims
- not forcing them to leave their religion
- not preventing them from practicing and spreading their religion.
These 3 things are the things that courage Muslims to declare a war and right now this is valid in Palestne against Israelis who are fighting or stealing the land and against some American troops in Iraq who are killing or torturing innocents BECAUSE they are harming MUSLIMS.

Islam, I have a question-
In the above quote you say that Peace and Tolerance for
- not forcing them to leave their religion &
- not preventing them from practicing and spreading their religion.
So is it acceptable to force other people to leave their religion and by this you are spreading your religion? If you are prevented from forcing another person from to convert to islam then you will say that we are preventing muslims from 'spreading' their religion but if muslims are forced to leave their religion then you will say we are 'forcing' you to leave your religion. What I want to ask is -
Is it okay for muslims to force other to leave their religion while other cannot do the same to muslims??

I can tell u from personal experience or whatever u want to call it (after all i live in a country with a muslim majority) that the Qur'an is more than a religious book it also imposes social measures
and I think that the problem that these social measures ( like wearing the burka) where good for their time but they need to be reformed... But this reform is impossible because these " social measures" are linked into religion

P.S: I said wearing burkas was good for it's time because it would stop a woman from being raped... If she isn't sexy she won't be raped.... u know what i mean

Originally posted by thelibra
Vincere7, While I cannot condemn you for ignorance, as you did supply a lot of material to back up your claims, I must say that your bias borders on bigotry. You can make any group on Earth look bad by taking isolated incidents, and then claiming the entire group is like that. I'd be curious what you had to say about other religions, as every religion on Earth that I can think of, at some point, fought with someone else, or oppressed someone, or had views someone disagreed with in violent ways.

You simply misunderstood my comments and what Islam is about as a whole. And yes I have more authority on the subject as I lived amongst Lebanese and Yemeni Muslims for over 7 years. I hardly qualify as a bigot as I have Muslim friends and have for years. Unlike many addressing the subject here I'm not forming an opinion from my mind based on zero experience. I am well versed in what a wide array of Muslims believe from the elder Sufi's to the young by conversing with them intimately for years.

Were not talking about other religions were discussing Islam. Anyone who wishes to water down Islam and paint the religion as a peace loving institution is merley believing the propaganda Islam wishes you to believe from luke warm cleric's. I find it very odd that we as Americans understand the use of propaganda and psychological warfare - I have no idea why anyone would think Islam does not use the same devices.

Originally posted by vincere7

Were not talking about other religions were discussing Islam. Anyone who wishes to water down Islam and paint the religion as a peace loving institution is merley believing the propaganda Islam wishes you to believe from luke warm cleric's. I find it very odd that we as Americans understand the use of propaganda and psychological warfare - I have no idea why anyone would think Islam does not use the same devices.

You have voted vincere7 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Well thank ya for the vote appreciate it.

Dear vincere:

You talk about many things is complicated way and I didn’t understand what you mean exactly. That is maybe because of my poor English.

However, there are many wrong things you said it that has no single proof

1. Uzbekistan was Muslim country before the Soviet, and the proof is the hundreds of old mosques that are found there before centuries and there are many famous old Muslim scholars from there.

2. The problem is NOT with Muslims and USA. The problem is between Muslims and USA government that support the terrorism of Sharon.

3. WE, Muslims, don’t believe in all what the bible say. Simply because it was written tens of years after Jesus. But there are something in it that is true.

4. Regarding the predictions of the bible, there are hundreds of predictions that Muhammad said it and it happens. Here are some examples:
www.harunyahya.com...

5. Allah is not an invent thing. Allah is the meaning of God in Arabic as “Dios” in Spanish and “Diou” in French.

____________

Dear JohnM:

I was in Syria few months ago, and I lived most my life in Syria. And in Syria there is Internet and there are many Syrian websites and even Syrian Virtual Schools like this one www.svuonline.org...

Syria is not a reach country as USA, but in the same time it is not poor country like Iraq, Sudan, India, etc.

But many people in Syria don’t know how to use the internet because it just entered Syria in the late 1999 and most of who know how to use it, the don’t use the internet except for entertainments, chatting, and downloading FREE software programs.

____________

You are welcome devil wasp

____________

Dear shots >>>

The question of you answer is that >>> MOST OF RELIGIOUS ISLAMIC LEADERS ARE AGAINST OSAMA AND THEY SPOKE AGAINST OSAMA

Take a look at this post and you will see the proof of what I said
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The dictionary I used to find the meaning of this “cleric” is
www.m-w.com...

_____________

Dear cafeman:

1. First of All, the American or any other troops who entered Iraq and they cause the killing of tens of thousands are NOT innocents. They are NOT like Americans in USA or Business men in any where even in Iraq. That is their job and they went to Iraq and they put themselves in that country whose people will NOT accept in any way any foreign armies to occupy them as you Americans will NOT accept that.

2. Killing prisoners is PROHIBITTED in Islam except in special situations such as if the enemies killed our prisoners or so. Moreover, killing injures is NOT allowed in Islam and among the rules of Jihad is to not kill them.

Allah says : “And they (pious ones), give food, inspite of their love for it (or for the love of Him), to Miskin (poor), the orphan, and the captive, (Saying): "We feed you seeking Allah's Countenance only. We wish for no reward, nor thanks from you.” [76/8-9]

When this verse was revealed, the companios of Muhammad were having some captives. So they used to feed them before they eat and Muhammad (peace be upon him) used to tell them, “Put the captives under the shade and let them drink.” Also, one day, Muhammad (peace be upon him) heard the captives at the middle of the night saying like “Aaah” in a sad sound, so he waked up and command his companions to not make the ties on their hands very string.

You can read more about that here: www.jamaat.org...

3. WHY Nno imam condemn that … Well, the answer simply is that FIRST you didn’t make a survey for all imams. SECOND, would Christian priests in SUA condemn some Christians if they killed a Buddhist who came to USA to kill Americans and occupy American territories and steal the oil or whatever goods are in USA??????

4. There is no way to compare between Abughraib prisoners who were taken out from their houses and between the troops who entered Iraq and turn it to hell.

____________

Dear delta boy:

1. You are almost right because those Wahhabis are the cancer, But they are less than 1% of Muslims and most of them in Saudi Arabia, but praise to God that Saudi Araba government finally are educating the Saudis and the Saudi channel shows every day at least one program or forum about this issue.

2. The Islamic Empire that spreaded from Spain to China was NOT wahhabi. But it was Islamicly. The proof is that women had many roles in the politic and science, You can take a look at this post that I post it and distinguished in it between Islam and Taliban regarding women’s rights
www.belowtopsecret.com...

Also, till now, all churches and temples that were before Muhammad still in many countries that was under Islamic Empire. For example, my country Syria that has about 10% of Christians.

___________
Dear Thelibra :

Thankyou for your replying.

I am currently in USA to continuing my studying but once I finish, there is no place much comfortable to spend the rest of my life other than Syria. And NO land in the whole universe I love like Syria. I LOVE SYRIA more than any thing.

May Allah bless American and bless noble Americans and May Allah guide Bush and his followers.

____________

Dear JedI

You are NOT included in the two situations that Muslims can lie in them.

And even if you think so, I am not saying any word without supporting it from the Quran and Sunnah which are the two sacred texts that all Islam is from them.

You can test any thing I said or will say and you will see that I am saying what Quran is saying. If you don’t believe, then search the Quran through this link in any language that you want

quran.nu...

______________

Dear Odium:

What do you mean by “western Islam” ????

Is Islam a merchandise that we can decorated and present it according to the culture !!

Brother, I am giving prooves of ALL what I say from the Quran and Sunnah that was revealed before 1400 years.

I don’t care what some idiot Muslims say or believe if their thoughts has no clear proof from the Quran and Sunnah.

__________

Dear JohnM:

I don’t know what you mean by this “Crusade” and I am not attacking to right of speech but what you say has nothing to do with Islam and I am challenging you to give me any Islamic text that support these crap.

But before, let ME give you what Islam says:

1. The Cristian Crusader thinks cutting the clitoris out of all your young girls extrememly barbaric, evil, demented, and insane. And that those who perform that surgery should be skined alive by their eyeballs and wrapped in the hide of a pig.

This is not allowd in Islam as it is in many other religions.

But where did you invented this punishment ???

It is a crap!

2. The Cristian Crusader thinks making 20 young school girls die in a fire because they dont have scarves on is out of this world evil, cruel, insane, unjust, and the work of Satan. That man should be burned alive and fed to hogs.

Read my post riht here to see that Islam didn’t ever mention a pinishment against the girl who is not wearing a scarf:

www.belowtopsecret.com...

3. The Cristian Crusader thinks killing your sister to protect family "honor" is another extremely barbaric, cruel and sadistict act. It would be better to shoot yourself in the head and send your sister to america.

THAT IS PROHIBITTED and it found in special cultures such as Turkish, Irani, and Pakistanian and cultures ONLY.
It is a huge sin and one of the biggest ones.

Allah says: “And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell to abide therein, and the Wrath and the Curse of Allah are upon him, and a great punishment is prepared for him.” [4:93]

4. The Christian Crusader thinks killing your 7 daughters because they were not boys is a totally insane and stupid thing to do, not to mention the fact that they could have produced 10 - 20 grand sons. This man should be drawn and quartered.

ISLAM is the system that prevent this act that pegan Arabs used to do it.

Allah says in the Quran: “And if one of them (unbelievers) is informed of the news of (the birth of) that which he set forth as a parable to the Most Beneficent (Allah) (i.e. of a girl), his face becomes dark, gloomy, and he is filled with grief!” [43-17]

Allah says also, “And when the news of (the birth of) a female (child) is brought to any of them, his face becomes dark, and he is filled with inward grief! He hides himself from the people because of the evil of that whereof he has been informed. Shall he keep her with dishonour or bury her in the earth ? Certainly, evil is their decision.” [16-59]

Allah says also, “And when the female (infant) buried alive (as the pagan Arabs used to do) shall be questioned. For what sin she was killed?” [81-8]

And NOW, can you support these crap from the Quran ???



___________

Deae IAF:

The answer is 100% NO NO NO. Muslims are NOT allow in any way to force any one to leave his religion. God says:

“There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right (Path of) Guidance has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.” [2-256]

He says also, “So remind them (O Muhammad ), you are only a one who reminds.You are not a dictator over them.” [88-21]

__________


Dear Blood Thorn:

1. There is nothing call Burka. It calls Hijab
2. Women have been raped every day since the dawn of history till now. And thus, Hijab is to reduce the percentage of that crime. And if you look to any statistics, you will see Islamic countries are among the less countries in that crime.

___________

Dear JedI

You are NOT included in the two situations that Muslims can lie in them.

And even if you think so, I am not saying any word without supporting it from the Quran and Sunnah which are the two sacred texts that all Islam is from them.

You can test any thing I said or will say and you will see that I am saying what Quran is saying. If you don’t believe, then search the Quran through this link in any language that you want

Can you elaborate a little further, I'm a bit confused here...

You say I'm not included in the situations, what do you mean by that ?

I mean that …

In Islam lying is allowed in only 2 situations:

1. During the war because the result of a war or a battle depends mainly on how smart and foxy the leader is.

2. To lie (in limit) to solve a conflict between two guys.

NOW!!

1. I cant lie at you simply because I am not a leader of an army neither you are my enemy! And thus why lying ???

2. I cant lie at you because I am not solving a problem between you and others.

WHY SHOULD I LIE AT YOU IF YOU ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THE TWO SITUATIONS THAT MUSLIMS ALLOWED TO LIE IN??

I hope you undersand my poor English or (Arabnglish)

But...America is the Great Satan; certainly that constitutes us as being the enemy, correct ??

So then your first situation would apply...

Originally posted by Islam

Dear shots >>>

The question of you answer is that >>> MOST OF RELIGIOUS ISLAMIC LEADERS ARE AGAINST OSAMA AND THEY SPOKE AGAINST OSAMA

Take a look at this post and you will see the proof of what I said
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The dictionary I used to find the meaning of this “cleric” is
www.m-w.com...

www.csmonitor.com...

www.islam-online.net...

www.islamonline.net...

www.islamonline.net...

muttaqun.com...

iiie.net...


Are the links you gave in that thread on only one condemns Al quieda the rest simply state the position in general by the religion.

Also five links to the same site does not hardly consitute a majority of their leaders.

Now my original question once again is why haven't the leaders condemned Osama and al zarquie(sp?) for their actions?

Frankly I think they do not want to fearing repercussions.

I mean how hard would it be to excommunicate them from the church?

Dear Jedi:

1. The one who say USA is the greatest Satan is Imam Khomeini who is an Imam for Shiia Muslim (7% of Muslims mostly in Iran and Iraq) and that is NOT what all imams and Muslims say.

2. I told you before, even if you think you are my enemy although I think you and most Americans are my brothers except Bush's group. That is because Muhammad said: "Huiman is the brother of the human wheather he like or not"

But Even if you still think that I consider you as an enemy, I am giving PROOVES of all what I say from the Quran and hence there are no lies because I am not saying a word unless by the evidence from the Quran.

And again, if you want to check by your self, this website will allow you to search in the whole Quran in any language you want

quran.nu...

Chec by yourself and I challange any one to see that the Quran saying something contrast to what I say.



_______________________________

Dear shots:

I dont know why are you dealing that harshly!

Can you give me what ALL PRIESTS in the whole world says about Iraq war in Arabic language ??????????????????????

I gave what I can to give in English language.

And finall, yuou have to see what ISLAMIC FAITH says about Terrorism such as 9/11 NOT what scholars say because WE follow Quran NOT scholars and if any scholar even the greatest one say anything contrast Quran we will throw his saying in the nearest garbage becaue Quran and Sunnah are our resources NOT scholars.

And the last link gives you what ISLAM says about Terrorism


iiie.net...

[edit on 24-4-2005 by Islam]

Originally posted by Islam

Dear shots:

I dont know why are you dealing that harshly!

Can you give me what ALL PRIESTS in the whole world says about Iraq war in Arabic language ??????????????????????

I gave what I can to give in English language.

And finall, yuou have to see what ISLAMIC FAITH says about Terrorism such as 9/11 NOT what scholars say because WE follow Quran NOT scholars and if any scholar even the greatest one say anything contrast Quran we will throw his saying in the nearest garbage becaue Quran and Sunnah are our resources NOT scholars.

And the last link gives you what ISLAM says about Terrorism


iiie.net...

[edit on 24-4-2005 by Islam]

Sorry if you take it to be harsh, that is not my intention. Obiiouvlsy you just cannot answer the question since all you give is the general perspective of the religion. That is not what I was looking for. At first you claimed many have spoken out yet have failed to prove that is true. I knew there were several however you claimed there were many that is why I asked for proof.

Also I noted you did not answer my last question, is that also because you do not know the answer?

I mean how hard would it be to excommunicate them from the church?


[edit on 4/24/2005 by shots]

I want what ALL Cristian priests say about the war in Iraq in ARABIC LANGUAGE.

Can you bring that????

Dear shots. Be logic please