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Do you have any question about *Jihad* ???

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posted on Apr, 11 2005 @ 06:09 PM
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Islam, I have enjoyed this thread and it is refeshing to hear a Muslim refer to Osama as 'evil'. We (the USA) certainly did use Osama to fight our old opponent, the USSR. I wonder, however, if Osama just became a religious nutjob or if he is still controlled by the shadow government of the USA. I don't know that the evidence can say either way.

You have said:



It is really what prophet Muhammad said, “The day of Judgment will not come until all nations will be against Muslims from all sides as lions surround their prey from all sides”
[...]
O Muhammad, you said nothing but the truth when said: “The day of Judgment will not start till all people will surround Muslims as lions surround their prey.”

You should be careful with this mindset. Once a religious man feels that his enemies' persecution is PROOF of his religion, that man becomes totally enshrouded in error. We Americans saw this when an American Christian preacher named David Koresh was taken down by the government. You see, when a man places himself in a corner, he must then construct a belief system that makes his little corner a HOLY place, proof of his righteousness. That can only lead to deception of oneself.

I have a question for you:

You have said the following in various times during this thread:



And he said, “The day of Judgment will not come until you fight the Jews and you will win.
[...]
Islam is not a new religion. Instead, Islam continues the previous revelations. hence, we believe in Moses, Jesus, Mary, Abraham, etc.
[...]
Muslims loosed that battle with Israel and prophet Muhammad said that but he said that we are going to win against the oppressors and THE LAND WILL RETURN TO ITS OWNERS.

And your nemesis, JudahMaccabbi has said the following:


JudahMaccabbi: According to the Kabbalah when the world will decend upon Jerusalem the War of Gog and Magog will occur. This will result in the coming of the Messiah and the destruction of all enemies of Israel.
[...]
Jerusalem is JEWISH.

So here we seem to have two very determined fellows who both claim to be the correct descendant of Abraham.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that really is the core of the matter: Both Jews and Muslims claim to be the chosen seed from Abraham. As I understand it, Hagar (Abe's maidservant) gave birth to Ishmael. I have read that Muslims believe that it is actually Ishmael whom God instructed Abraham to kill as a proof of faith. As most Christians understand it, it was Isaac who was the sacrificial lamb.

Can you shed some light on this? Do you believe that God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael? If so, can you describe how you feel that your answer is worth the price that Earth is paying right now?

Under the heading of "Abraham", Wikipedia says this:



Different writers have regarded the life of Abraham differently. He has been viewed as a chieftain of the Amorites, as the head of a great Semitic migration from Mesopotamia; or, since Ur and Haran were seats of Moon-worship, he has been identified with a moon-god. From the character of the literary evidence and the locale of the stories it has been held that Abraham was originally associated with Hebron. The double name Abram/Abraham has even suggested that two personages have been combined in the Biblical narrative; although this does not explain the change from Sarai to Sarah. But it is important to remember that the narratives are not contemporary, and that the interesting discovery of the name Abi-ramu (Abram) on Babylonian contracts of about 2000 BC does not prove the Abram of the Old Testament to be an historical person, even as the fact that there were "Amorites" in Babylonia at the same period does not make it certain that the patriarch was one of their number. One remarkable chapter associates Abraham with kings of Elam and the east (Genesis 14). No longer a peaceful sheikh but a warrior with a small army of 318 followers, he overthrows a combination of powerful monarchs who have ravaged the land. The genuineness of the narrative has been strenuously maintained, although upon insufficient grounds.

[...]

Several professors of archeology claim that many stories in the Old Testament, including important chronicles about Abraham, Moses, and others, were actually made up by scribes hired by King Josiah (7th century BC) in order to rationalize monotheistic belief in Yahweh. Evidently, the neighboring countries that kept many written records, such as Egypt, Assyria, etc., have no writings about the stories of the Bible or its main characters before 650 BC. Such claims are detailed in "Who Were the Early Israelites?" by William G. Dever, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., Grand Rapids, MI (2003). Another such book by Neil A. Silberman and colleagues is "The Bible Unearthed," Simon and Schuster, New York (2001).

So my question is, if both of you are fighting over a link to a man who's very existence is not certain, shouldn't you BOTH simply form a third religion? If not, then shouldn't ABRAHAM be viewed as a far greater Satan than any of the despots you mentioned (Hitler, Stalin, et al)? Abraham is responsible for all the dead Jews and Muslims (and everyone else) you both are arguing about. As it stands, Abraham's children have given the Earth thousands of years of silliness. Their little feud to be the "One True Line" from their daddy is going to be the ruin of us all, believer, agnostic and atheist alike.

Seems to me that if you were to both reject Abraham (maybe burn him in effigy), the two faiths might realize that they both have been absolute tools for the destruction of peace on Earth. You must realize that there can be no peace for Earth so long as you both cling to your Abrahamic totem.

[edit on 11-4-2005 by smallpeeps]




posted on Apr, 11 2005 @ 06:13 PM
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Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by Islam
... Islam is not a new religion. Instead, Islam continues the previous revelations. hence, we believe in Moses, Jesus, Mary, Abraham, etc.


Ah! I'm glad you see things this way. So you obviously have no issues with the Jews occupying the land of Israel. I mean, that's one of the main themes of the Pentateuch(First 5 books of the Bible). Moses was leading the children of Israel out of Egypt into the promise land. So there's got to be no doubt that this land is truly called Israel, and it belongs to the Jews.

So in my mind, the only way that the Muslims could dispute this claim is if they pick and choose the portions of the Bible that they like. So, dispute the claim that the Jews are rightfully promised the land that they live in now, but first you must deny what Abraham and Moses taught.



Jews are AMONG the owners of Israel or Palestine. I am not against that an I didnt say other than that.
But Israel or Palestine was for many other races.

See the timeline here
www.scaruffi.com...

See what happened from 1250 BC when Hebrews first came to Palestine. You will see that many other races and kingdoms estableshed there.

THUS, Palestine is not for Jews ONLY. It is for Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, and other races who lived in that place.

But that doesnt give the right for jEWS to make tens of massacres and to kill thousands of those Arabs who were living in Palestine in 1948.

If Jews have that right to do so, then Indians have the right to kill all Americans who live in the east coast!

If Jews have that right to do so, then Assyrians have the right to kill All people who live in Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine to establish their race country!

If Jews have that right to do so, then Persian people in Iran should kill all Arabs who are living in Iraq because Iraq was a Persian region before Islam!

In short, If every one of the hundreds of races want to establish a country of their race by killing those who are currently in that country, then all people will die and there will be no more humans.

Jews are welcome to live in Palestine BUT they are no way welcomed in any way to kill and kick arabs to live !!!!!!!!!



posted on Apr, 11 2005 @ 06:30 PM
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Islam, I have enjoyed this thread and it is refeshing to hear a Muslim refer to Osama as 'evil'. We (the USA) certainly did use Osama to fight our old opponent, the USSR. I wonder, however, if Osama just became a religious nutjob or if he is still controlled by the shadow government of the USA. I don't know that the evidence can say either way.


It will be more interesting to know that NO Muslim is referring to Osama as a holy guy except the Wahhabies direct who are located mainly in Saudi Arabia and Egypt.



You should be careful with this mindset. Once a religious man feels that his enemies' persecution is PROOF of his religion, that man becomes totally enshrouded in error. We Americans saw this when an American Christian preacher named David Koresh was taken down by the government. You see, when a man places himself in a corner, he must then construct a belief system that makes his little corner a HOLY place, proof of his righteousness. That can only lead to deception of oneself.


This is ONE of the things that Muhammad said will happen and it happened.
You can read more about that here:
harunyahya.com...




So here we seem to have two very determined fellows who both claim to be the correct descendant of Abraham.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that really is the core of the matter: Both Jews and Muslims claim to be the chosen seed from Abraham. As I understand it, Hagar (Abe's maidservant) gave birth to Ishmael. I have read that Muslims believe that it is actually Ishmael whom God instructed Abraham to kill as a proof of faith. As most Christians understand it, it was Isaac who was the sacrificial lamb.

Can you shed some light on this? Do you believe that God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael? If so, can you describe how you feel that your answer is worth the price that Earth is paying right now?


-Abraham in Islam is the father of prophets. Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad are among his descendant.

- Yes. Islam believe that Ishmael was the one who Abraham wanted to sacrifice NOT Isaac.
- You can read the full story from the Quran:

100 (Abraham said
O my Lord grant me a righteous (son)
101 So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.
102 Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him he said: O my son I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice now see what is thy view (the son) said: O my father Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah So wills one practising Patience and constancy.
103 So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him Prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
104 We called out to him, O Abraham
105 Thou hast already fulfilled the vision thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
106 For this was obviously a trial
107 And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
108 And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:
109 Peace and salutation to Abraham
110 Thus indeed do We reward those who do right
111 For he was one of Our believing Servants.
112 And We gave him the good news of Isaac a prophet, one of the Righteous.
113 We blessed him and Isaac: but of their progeny are (some) that do right, and (some) that obviously do wrong, to their own souls.

[Quran 37: 100-113]


- I don’t understand what you mean of your last question! Because it doesn’t matter who is scarified. Muhammad is from the descendants of Ishmael and Ishmael id the son of Abraham. Thus, Muhammad is a descendant of Abraham either Ishmael or Isaac was scarified.



Seems to me that if you were to both reject Abraham (maybe burn him in effigy), the two faiths might realize that they both have been absolute tools for the destruction of peace on Earth. You must realize that there can be no peace for Earth so long as you both cling to your Abrahamic totem..


I would like you to read my previous reply.

Brother, Islam is NOT against Jews to stay in Palestine because they are AMONG the owners of Palestine. ISLAM is against the war crimes that Israelis did it in order to occupy Palestine.



posted on Apr, 11 2005 @ 06:56 PM
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Abraham in Islam is the father of prophets. Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad are among his descendant.

Yes but are you saying that there have not also been other prophets who did not descend from Abraham? Why is he so special?

Why do you two fight over the right to be Abraham's favored son? We're not talking about land here, and we're not talking about dead women and children, because both sides seem willing to (A) pay with their dead loved one's lives, and (B) retreat or take land as needed.

If the Quran says that Ishmael was the favored son, but the Hebrews say it was Isaac, don't you see that this will keep the two groups involved in endless conflict? These books (the Quran and the Bible) are the two main "instruction manuals" for finding God and yet they are diametrically opposed to one another, right from the start.

I am sticking with my statement: It is Abraham (or the myth of him) that is to blame for all the deaths you have mentioned. This stupid man could not handle his family and all of your problems are the result.

Your comment that "Islam is NOT against [the idea of] Jews [staying] in Palestine" is not very far-sighted because the Jew and the Muslim will be causing problems for the planet forever if you stick to your ancient feuds. You need to learn a new path. If not, you'll both die with the other's sword in your chest. Can't you see that?

I'm no prophet, but it seems fairly obvious to me that the deluded children of Abraham, both flavors of them, are a major reason why there is no peace or harmony on Earth.



[edit on 11-4-2005 by smallpeeps]



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 07:29 AM
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Islam:
Small Peeps makes a very good point regarding the issue of Abraham....One that I indicated in a previous post on this thread when I said that both Jews and Palestinians are both Semetic peoples and as such I find it hard to understand how anyone could be called anti-semetic when speaking about their own histrorical lineage...But I digress!

My real question is this: Since both Ismael and Issac are both sons of Abraham, and Abraham appears to be the accepted father of both Christianiity and Islam.....What is your opinion and knowledge of the Hisorical figure to who abraham worshiped and gave tithes to...the one Called Melchezidek! After all Melchezedek is the one to whose preistly role Abraham gave homage to! Does the koran speak of the Role of Melchezidek...or does it merely begin with Ismael and Muhammed? Just curious



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 04:36 PM
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Why do you two fight over the right to be Abraham's favored son? We're not talking about land here, and we're not talking about dead women and children, because both sides seem willing to (A) pay with their dead loved one's lives, and (B) retreat or take land as needed.

If the Quran says that Ishmael was the favored son, but the Hebrews say it was Isaac, don't you see that this will keep the two groups involved in endless conflict? These books (the Quran and the Bible) are the two main "instruction manuals" for finding God and yet they are diametrically opposed to one another, right from the start.

I am sticking with my statement: It is Abraham (or the myth of him) that is to blame for all the deaths you have mentioned. This stupid man could not handle his family and all of your problems are the result.


Sorry for being late but I was busy.

Going back …

Brother, I cant understand till now why are you connecting between Abraham and what is happening in Palestine right now!!!

The different between Muslims and Jews about Ishmael is one of the MANY differences.

And NO one from either sides (Muslims or Jews) consider what you are saying about Abraham and his two sons. And NO one from either sides use that to declare a war or so!

Muslims believe that the Torah and the Bible were corrupted and changed. An the clearest proof of that is that there are many contrast ideas in the Bible.

I am sorry, but your suggestion is lack of evidence because (again) NO one from both sides regardless terrorists or the right fighters consider Abraham’s sons as a reason for their fights.




Does the koran speak of the Role of Melchezidek...or does it merely begin with Ismael and Muhammed? Just curious


i really dhavent hear of Melchezidek!!!
Maybe I know his name in Arabic but I dont think so.
Is he one of Abraham's sons or what exactly?



[edit on 13-4-2005 by Islam]



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 05:38 PM
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I am sorry, but your suggestion is lack of evidence because (again) NO one from both sides regardless terrorists or the right fighters consider Abraham’s sons as a reason for their fights.


i really dhavent hear of Melchezidek!!!
Is he one of Abraham's sons or what exactly?

Abraham only had two sons, according to popular lore. Shouldn't you know this? In any case, he may not even have existed, as I referenced.

This is very simple, really: The Jews believe they are the chosen ones. Their whole bloodline goes through Isaac. If the Muslims can remove the Jews (or just humble them massively) then clearly the Isaac bloodline will be proven to have been the non-favored one. Alternately, if the Jews can humble (or remove) the Muslims, then they will prove that the Ishmael bloodline is the flawed bloodline and Isaacs bloodline will be supreme. Do you get it? This issue cannot ever be settled and will always linger for as long as both of these groups continue on Earth. You will never get along until one of you is dead/humbled and whichever one of you is in the lesser position (arabs, right now) will always desire the humiliation/death of the other. It's very Freudian.

How can two peoples live in peace, when they both claim a divine bloodline which can only be given to one child? One of you has to be wrong.




[edit on 13-4-2005 by smallpeeps]



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 07:24 PM
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This is very simple, really: The Jews believe they are the chosen ones. Their whole bloodline goes through Isaac. If the Muslims can remove the Jews (or just humble them massively) then clearly the Isaac bloodline will be proven to have been the non-favored one. Alternately, if the Jews can humble (or remove) the Muslims, then they will prove that the Ishmael bloodline is the flawed bloodline and Isaacs bloodline will be supreme. Do you get it? This issue cannot ever be settled and will always linger for as long as both of these groups continue on Earth. You will never get along until one of you is dead/humbled and whichever one of you is in the lesser position (arabs, right now) will always desire the humiliation/death of the other. It's very Freudian.


Dear smallpeeps!

I am really very confused of what you are saying.

These are your “personal” suggestions and it doesn’t based on any evidence from Muslims!

Allah said in the Quran: “you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware.” [049.013]

It never mentioned in Islam that we should kill Jews or that Muslims are chosen among people because of Ishmael!!!! That what Jews say (maybe) NOT what Muslims say!

Allah said in the Quran: “You are the best of the nations raised up for (the benefit of) men; you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah; and if the followers of the Book (Christians & Jews) had believed it would have been better for them; of them (some) are believers and most of them are transgressors.” [003.110]

So the verse include that best or chosen people should have 3 attitudes:
1. enjoin what is right
2. forbid the wrong
3. believe in Allah

And then He mentioned that Jews and Christians would be in better situation if they believe as Muslims believe and He says finally that some of them are already believers (and those are very small branch who dont clain that Jesus is God's son)!!!!

So the verse didn’t mention AT ALL that we are chosen because of Ishmael’s sacrifice!!!

He says that He choose those who follow the right path (ISLAM) but not because Ishmael!

Allah says: “He hath chosen you and hath not laid upon you in religion any hardship; the faith of your father Abraham (is yours). He hath named you Muslims of old time and in this (Scripture),” [022.078]

Islam is the chosen religion and Muslims are chosen and every one who become a Muslim and follow Allah’s command will be chosen. But that doesnt mean to kill those who are not yet chosen!

Allah said: "Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice. " [60-8]

On the other hand (foryour info) , Only 15% of Muslims are Arab and the rest of Muslims are spread in Asia, Africa, Europe and all around the world. And Arabs are the only descendants of Ishmael.

I respect what you think, BUT You have to prove your ideas and suggestions so that it would be accepted and believable. And if you read the whole Quran you will never ever find something that would support your ideas.

This is the Quran search engine. Search and I am 100% sure that you will NOT read any verse that say Muslims are choosen because of Ishmael's sacrefice!!!!!!!

www.qurancomplex.com...
quran.nu...


[edit on 13-4-2005 by Islam]



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 08:40 PM
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Islam, I can best make my point by asking a question:

Under the heading, "Israel", Wikipedia says this:



Caliphate and the Ottoman Empire
The Muslim Caliphate conquered the land from the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantines) in the seventh century and attracted Arab settlers. The local language, Aramaic, gradually disappeared. Throughout the centuries the size of Jewish population in the land fluctuated. Before the birth of modern Zionism, by the early 19th century, only approximately 10,000 Jews lived in the area that is today's Israel. (Dan Bahat, Twenty Centuries of Jewish Life in the Holy Land, 1976, pp. 61-63)

So the Jews had Jerusalem taken from them in 70AD, and then the Muslims took it from the Romans in 638AD. My question is this: When Muslims took Jerusalem from the Romans, were they obligated to give it back to the Jews? Why had the Jews been promised (and given) the so-called "promised land", by their God, and then the Islamic prophet (seed of Ishmael) is the one who conquers Jerusalem? Isn't that a bit odd? Of all the people who could have taken Jerusalem from Rome, it ends up being the Ishmaelic-savior, Mohammed, (and his people) who ends up owning the promised land.

Don't Muslims believe that the prophet arose to heaven from Jerusalem the promised land? Don't they, therefore, view it as particularly divine that it was their prophet, Mohammed (Ishmael's bloodline) that retook Abraham's so-called "promised land"?

Also, how do you imagine Jews reflect upon this moment in 638 when Islam/Mohammed/Ishmael took the promised land? Naturally a Jew would think to himself, "Arrgh! It was us Jews who the Romans unlawfully kicked out of Jerusalem! We have the rightful claim!" Obviously this is how they thought because they have reclaimed it, and as you mention, they now have nuclear missiles there.

How do you think the next few centuries will play out if both bloodlines continue to fight over this promised-land? Will Abraham's children ever allow the rest of us to have a world of peace?



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 09:08 PM
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I've been reading through all these posts for a while and I am just gobsmacked.

What happened to tolerance?

THERE IS NO RIGHT RELIGION

Each of us have our own beliefs and NONE of them are perfect.
If they were we'd be kickin' back having a beer with God right now.
I applaud the idea of sharing wealth and ideas with the thought that we can all grow together, learn and accept each other but if you can't play nicely pack up your toys and go home.

To me the concept people have of the Jihad is similar to the Christian fanatical Godbotherers we have in the west too. It is the same in every religion, a few fanatics stretch the entire well meaning concept out of all proportion.

So much for a united world, if we can't collectively act like adults and get along then maybe we should just build a big fence around each country and pretend it's our own little sheltered world.

It is hard to accept some of the occurrences that happen in the world, yes, but one - upmanship isn't going to get the job done. Just destruction of both society and the world.

Discussions like these remind me of how we ended up in a world of wars, slavery and acts of genocide. I find it quite distressing to think that if we can't get along we will end up trying to best each other and anihilating everything.

And if I was God I'd say it serves us right. reap what you sow.


USA: we know they have weapons of mass destruction
World: How?
USA: we kept the receipts

No one is above God



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 07:22 AM
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So the Jews had Jerusalem taken from them in 70AD, and then the Muslims took it from the Romans in 638AD. My question is this: When Muslims took Jerusalem from the Romans, were they obligated to give it back to the Jews? Why had the Jews been promised (and given) the so-called "promised land", by their God, and then the Islamic prophet (seed of Ishmael) is the one who conquers Jerusalem? Isn't that a bit odd? Of all the people who could have taken Jerusalem from Rome, it ends up being the Ishmaelic-savior, Mohammed, (and his people) who ends up owning the promised land.


When Muslims governed Jerusalem, they gave the Jews especially many rights that they couldn’t even dream of it under the extremist Christian Roman empire.

Umar (The second caliph), assigned a treaty with Jews and Christinans that says:
"From the servant of Allah and the Commander of the Faithful, Omar: The inhabitants of Jerusalem are granted security of life and property. Their churches and crosses shall be secure. This treaty applies to all people of the city. Their places of worship shall remain intact. These shall neither be taken over nor pulled down. People shall be quite free to follow their religion. They shall not be put to any trouble..."

You can read more about the tolerance and humbleness of Umar in this link of Wekipedia:

en.wikipedia.org...



Don't Muslims believe that the prophet arose to heaven from Jerusalem the promised land? Don't they, therefore, view it as particularly divine that it was their prophet, Mohammed (Ishmael's bloodline) that retook Abraham's so-called "promised land"?


Yes. BUT we don’t call it “the promise land.” We call Jerusalem and Masjid Alaqsa (The third holy place).
And again, if Jews were the governors and they are giving Muslims their right to at least pray in the 3rd holiest mosque, then there would be no such horrible conflict.

But instead, Jews killed Muslims and kicked them away while when Muslims came to Jerusalem, they didn’t do 1/1000 of what Jews did.

So who is the oppressor?



Also, how do you imagine Jews reflect upon this moment in 638 when Islam/Mohammed/Ishmael took the promised land? Naturally a Jew would think to himself, "Arrgh! It was us Jews who the Romans unlawfully kicked out of Jerusalem! We have the rightful claim!" Obviously this is how they thought because they have reclaimed it, and as you mention, they now have nuclear missiles there.


Muslims (NOT only from Ishmael descendants) governed Jerusalem that was NOT even governed by Jews! And Roman ruined their temple and did horrible things to their holy staff that Muslim didn’t do any any any thing like that at ALL.

Read in wekipedia how Jews were oppressed under the Roman Empire

en.wikipedia.org...

So Jews should be thankful to Muslims who gave them liberty that was never given at Roman time.

And they should then kill Romans NOT Arabs.



How do you think the next few centuries will play out if both bloodlines continue to fight over this promised-land? Will Abraham's children ever allow the rest of us to have a world of peace?


We can live together Jews and Muslims in Jerusalem as we did live together for more than 1300 years.
The first one who starts was the Jews. They are the first ones who started that conflict.

WHY WHY WHY … WHY there was NO conflict like that between Muslims and Jews???????????
This is the FIRST conflict and Jews are the oppressors and they will lose. NOT because they are Jews and we are Muslims. BUT because they are the unjust and they who start the war crimes against Muslims who gave them all their rights when they were the emperors.




What happened to tolerance?

THERE IS NO RIGHT RELIGION

Each of us have our own beliefs and NONE of them are perfect.
If they were we'd be kickin' back having a beer with God right now.
I applaud the idea of sharing wealth and ideas with the thought that we can all grow together, learn and accept each other but if you can't play nicely pack up your toys and go home.

To me the concept people have of the Jihad is similar to the Christian fanatical Godbotherers we have in the west too. It is the same in every religion, a few fanatics stretch the entire well meaning concept out of all proportion.

So much for a united world, if we can't collectively act like adults and get along then maybe we should just build a big fence around each country and pretend it's our own little sheltered world.


Read about the tolerance of Islam here
www.harunyahya.com...

And there is NO way to compare between the old Christian holy war and Jihad. The crusade (for example) killed hundred of thousands and then when (Jihad) under Saladin win, they didn’t touch the Christians holy temple!!!

NO WAY to compare between Christian and Muslim wars.



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 08:00 AM
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Hi Islam........
You say QUOTE///
And there is NO way to compare between the old Christian holy war and Jihad. The crusade (for example) killed hundred of thousands and then when (Jihad) under Saladin win, they didn’t touch the Christians holy temple!!!

You say.....NO WAY to compare between Christian and Muslim wars.


Compare Muslim wars?

Do you want me to?

We are talking Muslim war ,now are we not?

In the name of ''Allah''
go here.......
imia.cc.duth.gr...

Glory Be to God and His Saints ........Martyrs of the Truth....+
helen....



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by Islam

It will be more interesting to know that NO Muslim is referring to Osama as a holy guy except the Wahhabies direct who are located mainly in Saudi Arabia and Egypt.


Islam:
You never really answered my earlier post on this thread which asked you to explain the acceptance of the Wahhabies by the Islamic leaders!

Above you state that the wahabbies are mainly located in Saudi Arabia and Egypt....Why does the governments and reglious leaders in these two countries allow the wahabist to flourish, and also fund the radical wahabist teaching through the madras schools.

Does'nt this indicate that the Islamic leadership and the Government of Saudi Arabia and Egypt are supportive of the most fanatical sect in the Islamic religion...the wahabis!

What say you on this?

Granted every religion has it's fanatics.....here in the U.S the KKK Claims to be a Christian organization....However they are not state sanctioned or funded... to my knowledge!

Thank you for taking the time to answer these questions!



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 02:27 PM
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You say.....NO WAY to compare between Christian and Muslim wars.


Compare Muslim wars?

Do you want me to?

We are talking Muslim war ,now are we not?

In the name of ''Allah''
go here.......
imia.cc.duth.gr...

Glory Be to God and His Saints ........Martyrs of the Truth....+
helen....


1. Calm down


2. I am NOT accusing or addressing Chriistianity nor Christians. I am accusing the terrorists who sis what they do in what called Crusade

3. The website that you gave is talking about the crimes that TURKS did it in the previous century. They did so in the name of their empire NOT in the name of Islam or Allah. And even if that was the case, they are against Islam. Thus, They are terrorists Not Islam or Muslims as the crusaders are terrorists Not the Christianity or the Christians.

4. Still, there are NO way to compare between the wars of the two religion fllowers.

There is NO way to compare between terrorist attacks that have done by stupid Muslims and between terrorist attacks that have done by stupid Christians such as

Hiroshima and Nagazaki Nuclear bombs,
Hitler terrorist killing against innocents and Jews,
The Crusades,
and I will not mention the international crimes that Christians did it to the red Indians when they came to America


I know Christianity is against that. But that is the facts of History. NO one can deny it!

4. Do you mean that the Crusadors are Martyrs of the Truth.






Islam:
You never really answered my earlier post on this thread which asked you to explain the acceptance of the Wahhabies by the Islamic leaders!

Above you state that the wahabbies are mainly located in Saudi Arabia and Egypt....Why does the governments and reglious leaders in these two countries allow the wahabist to flourish, and also fund the radical wahabist teaching through the madras schools.

Does'nt this indicate that the Islamic leadership and the Government of Saudi Arabia and Egypt are supportive of the most fanatical sect in the Islamic religion...the wahabis!

What say you on this?

Granted every religion has it's fanatics.....here in the U.S the KKK Claims to be a Christian organization....However they are not state sanctioned or funded... to my knowledge!

Thank you for taking the time to answer these questions!


These countries are NOT allowing extrimest Wahhabies to flourish their ideas. Instead, they are arresting them daily. Read the news and will see what I am saying.

But they allow the moderated Wahhabies who dont have the thhoughts of terrorism.

If you openthe Saudi Channel especially, there are almost every day 1 or 2 programs against extrimest Wahhabies because of their recent corruptions in Saudi Arabia.

And also, Those idiots websites are full of cursing and slighting of ALL Muslim peresidents and kings including Saudi's king because they are according to their STRANGE thoughs KUFFAE (Unbelievers)!!!

THUS, these countries are AGAINST extrimest Wahhabies NOT moderated wahhabies.

Finally, Wahhabies are about (1% of Muslims).


I hope that answer your question and excecuse my wierd English.



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 03:50 PM
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Islam:
Your english is fine...and I appreciate the discussion. I am not in the middle east so I can not dispute your facts regarding the issue of wahabbis. However it is quite an issue for our government here in the U.S. I am attaching an Congrssional audio link of some hearing on wahabiism. You will need real player or windows media player to listen;

Do yourself a favor and watch the Senate hearing on Wahabiism and see where the real dangers and anger are against Americans...then we can speak intelligently about the subject.

Senate Judiciary hearing on Wahabbism and it's effects on America. (3) hours
You will need to copy annd paste the entire link below to view!

switchboard.real.com... link=rtsp%3A%2F%2Fcspanrm.fplive.net%2Fcspan%2Fjdrive%2Fsmil%2Fter062603%5Fwahabbi.smi

[edit on 14-4-2005 by cafeman]



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 02:08 AM
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Islam.......I pointed out to you previously about what the Muslims did .......being in the name of Muhammed.......
Now True Christianity is to follow Jesus Christ ,His ways and what He taught........He did not tell His followers to go and force and kill those that were to accept the truth.......

If I look at what Muhammed taught(in the Koran)and what he DID ......do you think that I can compare and distinguish between the two ?

Jesus Christ was GOD .......not 3 gods as many Muslims will say........He was from the beginning.......He was prophesied from the Old Testament...(ok, im not going to go there....coz this is a different thread and not the place for this)but if you answered my questions in B.T.S then we could talk)


The 400 yrs of slavery by the turks (Muslims) in Greece was terrible.....and they the Muslims tortured and raped and killed in the name of Muhammed your prophet .....

If an Orthodox Christian did not accept the muslim religion and did not say that they beleived in ALLAH (if he is the same God as many beleive)then why were they killed ,murdered ,tortured and raped?

Now Christians have done some pretty awful stuff..........BUT not in the name of Jesus Christ our God.....
Jesus Christ never did accept violence......He taught that we as followers should LOVE our enemies and do good to those that HATE us...
Why?
Because if one does good to those that do good......what has one achieved?
If we do good to those that HATE us, then that is something GOOD in God's name....because we do not expect anything in return for our goodness...

Tell me, since you beleive you know your Prophet Muhammed.........Do all Muslims follow his ways and his teachings?
Do you think that Muhammed has shown a good example of what he taught?


Jesus Christ has Resurrected as was foretold by many Prophets in the Old Testament.......
What did Muhammed do?
How did he die?
Do you know his life ?

Im not saying all this because im against all Muslims ,in fact we are all human and all sin in the name of God.....my neighbours are Muslim(From Iraq) and they are very nice people......

I have many questions but not here....
Glory be to God, Lord Jesus Christ and His Saints...
helen



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 05:46 PM
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Dear cafeman:

I pasted the WHOLE link but this page appeared
mailafriend.guide.real.com...

I DO have realplayer.

But I will NOT deny that MOST Muslims and especially Arabs (15% of Muslims) hate America.

But if you go back to the WWII time, you will see that Arabs used to like America and hate France and UK.

That is because at that time France and UK were occupying Arab lands. But right now,

1. USA is occupying Muslims” lands (Afghanistan, Iraq)

2. Uniting with Israel, the biggest enemies of Muslims.

3. Approve the 200 nuclear bombs that Israel had it since 1980s and fighting without hesitating the fertilizing of Uranium in Iran.

4. Not listening to the UN commands (like when occupying Iraq) and want every one to listen to UN (like what happened in Syria!)

5. Bush is putting himself as the leader of the creatures if not the lord of them and addressing our countries with undiplomatic names such as (Arc of evil, etc.)

6. The lies that was done by Bush’s congress concerning the massive weapons in Iraq.

7. What has happened in Abughraib and Guantamo jails!

THAT ALL will FORCE Muslims and especially Arabs to hate USA. But Americans should be thankful to ISLAM that preventing some zeal and eunthiastic youth from doing many 9\11. And in every Friday lecture, we hear the imams (Muslims religious’ leaders) advising Muslims to be wise and to not do idiot things like 9\11.

And that why many extremist Wahhabies addressing those Imams as KUFFAR (infidels).




Islam.......I pointed out to you previously about what the Muslims did .......being in the name of Muhammed.......
Now True Christianity is to follow Jesus Christ ,His ways and what He taught........He did not tell His followers to go and force and kill those that were to accept the truth.......

If I look at what Muhammed taught(in the Koran)and what he DID ......do you think that I can compare and distinguish between the two ?


1. Calm down again

2. How are you addressing Islam and the holy Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) that it commands its followers to FORCE people to accept ISLAM ???????

ALLAH SAYS:

“There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.” [002.256]

“So if they (nonMuslims) submit then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, then upon you is only the delivery of the message and Allah sees the servants.”
[003.020]

“Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear Message.”
[024.054]


THUS, Your ideas are based on your emotions NOT on facts.

3. Regarding what you said about Jesus and God. Some of Christians believe that Jesus is God, others believe that Jesus is son of God, and others believe that Jesus, God, and Holy spirit are three and those three are one. ANY HOW, It is not a matter to be discussed because the three sayings are WRONG according to Islam teaching.


[edit on 15-4-2005 by Islam]



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 08:19 PM
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Greetings Islam, and welcome to ATS.

You have raised a great subject for discussion, and I very much appreciate it, as it's so hard to find serious material somedays.

I have a few questions, but before I begin, I would just like to say I have personally known many Muslims throughout my life, and without fail, they were the most tolerant of any other mainstream religion, most educated in their own religion, and showed the greatest degree of discipline for its own sake. I am delighted to make yet another Muslim acquaintance. So please do not interpret my questions as an attack, I do not mean to imply anything, but rather to express my own ignorance on these matters, and hope to hear the other side.


  1. Suicide Bombing? - How can suicide bombing possibly be justified, even in Jihad, when so many innocents are killed in the process?

    If I am to understand correctly, the Qu'ran expressly forbids the killing of innocents.


    from the Qu'ran
    (17:33) Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)



    from the Sunnah study Sahih Bukhari
    (4:52:257) Narrated 'Abdullah: During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah's Apostle disapproved the killing of women and children.


    Yet so many women and children are killed in suicide bombings.

    I can see how certain passages could be misinterpreted to provide justification of this, such as:


    from the Sunnah study Sahih Bukhari
    (4:52:65) A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."


    Yet I do not see Allah's superior word being something that he disapproves of. Are the suicide bombers ignorant, or does the Qu'ran or Sunnah make exceptions for the women and children of Israel? The Qu'ran would suggest so in the following passage:


    from the Qu'ran
    (2:178) O you who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then prosecution (for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good manner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this he shall have a painful chastisement.


    Yet how can a suicide bomber possibly know if his bloodwit is equal? If an Israeli fighter takes out a squad of Palestinian men, does the balance of the bloodwit equal a busload of school children? A restaurant of women?

    At the risk of sounding insulting, this practice seems common enough on the border of Palestine and Israel that it can not be chalked up to just being a few nutty extremists. It seems, at least from what I am able to observe via the media, that this is practically a way of life, that children are being raised to be human bombs. I must admit, however, that I am not there watching it from a first person point of view, our media footage is very sensationalistic, and that our own people commit acts just as terrible.

    So I guess I'm asking for an explanation of something that appears to be forbidden by the Qu'ran and Sunnah, yet appears to happen so frequently.

  2. Jihad against America? - I always get a different answer when I ask this. What's the deal with "America, The Great Satan" and a supposed jihad against America. I've asked a number of Muslims this, and get everything from a blank stare ("that's news to me") to a lengthy explanation of injustices.

    I understand that Jihad is not limited to physical borders, but rather the injutices against mankind. This is perhaps best explained by a famous Muslim scholar:


    from Sayyed Qutb's book Milestones
    "If we insist on calling Islamic jihad a defensive movement, then we must change the meaning of the word `defense' and mean by it `defense of man' against all those elements which limit his freedom. These elements take the form of beliefs and concepts, as well as of political systems, based on economic, racial, or class distinction."


    However, America is not the place where the greatest amount of injustices occur, nor are they even the greatest injustices on the planet. I could name names of countries, and the atrocities that they have committed, repeatedly, on their own people and others. I could point out "ethnic cleansings" that even occurred in Muslim countries, and resulted in far more murders than all the freakish American hate groups put together. I could point out countries where your only chance to win a court case was to bribe the judge (assuming you ever saw trial before dying in a filthy prison). I could point out a lot of these things, crimes far worse and more numerous that those committed in America, but instead, I'll just restate the question:

    What's the big beef with Americans?

    What'd we do? How can we stop it? Is it they want us to all become Muslim? Have they not read the words of Allah? He very clearly states that one cannot be compelled under duress to become a Muslim, but must do so of their own free will.


    from the Qu'ran
    (2:256) There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever rejects Satan (and what he calls to) and believes in Allah, he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handhold, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.


    So I ask again, what's the deal with hating America as opposed to the rest of the world? Or is the rest of the world hated as well, and we Americans only hear the anti-American sentiment?

  3. What does America have to do (within reason)? - What do we have to do, within reason, to stop being hated? The whole world cannot be Muslim, and frankly, our nation simply wouldn't make very good Muslims anyway. We like our intoxicants, our pork products, our scantily clad women, and (since the 70's) a clean shave. Does this truly make us horrible people? Is it so unreasonable to allow us our heathen ways? We do not force them upon the Muslim world, and the Muslim word forbids forcing its own views upon us...

    Is it the whole "support of Israel" thing? This I can understand.
    • It's a...what...3000-year old arguement?
    • The friend of my enemy, is my enemy.
    • Israel displaced a lot of indigenous people in the region.
    • Israel has committed some rather terrible acts in the process, including spreading beyond the agree-upon borders, and walling off the water supply.


    But try to see it from the American point of view as well.
    • Historically, America has much closer ties with Jews than Muslims. Not because of racism, but rather because direct immigration from other countries yielded far more Jews than Muslims.
    • We don't see Israelies swallowing bombs and blowing up busloads of Palestinian children. If they do it, we don't see it.
    • We have vested interests in Israel instead of Palestine because it is a more stable, advanced, and profitable area. We also have vested interests in several Muslim countries with stable, advanced, and profitable political and economical affairs.

      Palestine, on the other hand, commits a lot bloody terrorist acts, reeks of instability, and frankly, all the media footage we see of them makes them looked like crazed gunmen, all in the name of Jihad, which is something that simply cannot be reasoned against. If you were an unbiased investor, who would you choose?

      It's not that we're choosing Jews over Muslims, if anything, we have far more economic interests in various other Muslim countries than in Israel. It's that Palestinians are frickin' nuts!

      At least that's how it appears to us.


    So we're not going to stop backing Israel, until Palestine quits acting like a loony bin. Even if they are fully justified in their actions, who's going to listen to a country that smiles warmly on suicide bombers and runs around firing guns in the air? Especially when that country is crying out for your death. Would you bother with them, in our shoes?

    Onward... we're not going to stop our heathen ways. We're not going to stop backing Israel. And we're not all going to voluntarily convert to Muslim.

    So what do we have to do, within reason, to get the Muslims to stop hating us?


    That's all my questions for now. I hope I have not given insult. I realize you yourself (as well as countless other Muslims) are good people, and live amongst us as friends, neighbors, business partners, spouses, and so forth. If I have given insult, please tell me where, and I will find a more diplomatic way of stating the question.

    Until then, I eagerly await your answers.



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 10:50 PM
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Hi Thelibra and thank you for participating in the thread.

1. The Suicide Bombing:

It is very clear from the Islamic resources that you brought that Suicide is PROHIBITTED in Islam. And thus, many Islamic countries are among the least countries in committing suicide.

NOW, going to the suicide in wars.

Suicide in wars and battles are also PROHIBITTED. The proof is that Prophet Muhammad didn’t mention any quote about that nor his companions did such action.

If you look through history of Muslims, we will find that suicide bombers issue started in the late 20th century and in Palestine only but right now it is spreading every where, unfortunately.

But why did it start in Palestine?

The Answer is that after more than half of Palestinians were kicked out from their lands to be as refugees in Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria, and after the tens of massacres that Israelis did it against humanity in Palestine, and when most countries (especially USA) supported Israel and closed their eyes about the crimes that Israel do it and about the 200 nuclear bombs that Israel has it.

After all of that happened, Palestinians saw themselves under two situations. Either they will stay in their homes waiting for a “mistaken” bomb to kill them, or they will choose the resistant choice.

As any other noble society, Palestinians chose the resistant choice but they faced a problem that the weapons they have CAN NOT be compared at all to the Israeli weapons and if they shoot a bomb from a village toward, then Israel simply will vanish this village. And thus, it is like committing a group suicide of such a village.

These reasons lead Palestinians to choose the Suicide Bombing weapon because only one will be killed instead of a whole village and it is a profound attacks in the heart of the enemy.

NOW, for killing innocents issue. Americans, Europeans, Australians, and other countries’ civilians are innocents because they are NOT living on our lands that we kicked from it. They are living on THEIR lands. And thus it is very PROHIBITTED to kill any one of them and moreover it is like harming Muhammad himself because that what he said.

BUT Israelis who live in Israel are another issue. They are living “intentionally and knowingly” over the lands that their owners were kicked out and are living right now in uncomfortable camps spread all around Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria, my country.

Imagin that you are sitting with your wife, children, cousin, uncles, and aunts in a big house, and a group of people came inside. They killed some of your children, they raped some of your women relatives, they arrest some of your beloved ones, and finally they threw you all away with no shelter or a place to save you from cold, hot, rain, snow, etc.
I ask you by God, would you call those people “innocents”??????????????????

Would you believe those people??? Don’t you wish to take revenge from what savage action they’ve don’t to you and to your innocent family??? What you would feel if some one who is living far away and didn’t test any thing from the bitter life you are living and he says that YOU and your family are the terrorists and those groups are the innocents and the leaders of Peace????

All Arabs, Muslims, and even Palestinians are from inside against the suicide bombing because it is irregular and inhumanity. BUT what can we do if that is the only thing we can do?????

__________________________________________

2. Jihad on America.

- FIRST, Sayyed Qutb is NOT in any way the biggest Muslim leaders! He is among the most extremist Wahhabies on earth. And by the way, his books are prohibited to be published in many Arabic countries like Syria, my country. He and his irregular ideas lead Syria in the 1980 to a huge conflict we still tasting its influencing till now. He made also a huge conflict in Egypt and finally he was hanged their. SO please don’t tell me what he say because Islam is against him 100%.

- SECOND, NO Muslim scholar (other than Wahhabies >1% of Muslims) makes the war on USA lawful. The war against USA will be lawful in one way. IF THE GOVERNMENT STOPPED MUSLIMS IN USA FROM PRACTICING THEIR RELIGION, and that didn’t happen and will not happen.

Allah say in the Quran: Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity [60-8]


HE SAYS ALSO,

“So if they -nonMuslims- submit then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, then upon you is only the delivery of the message and Allah sees the servants.”
[003.020]

HE SAYS ALSO,

“Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear Message.”
[024.054]



That for American civilians. BUT American soldiers who are following the insane order of the new pharaoh “Bush” and they are killing and torturing INNOCENTS, Iraqis have to fought them because they are killers obviously.

BUT even though, many Iraqis imams (especially Shiia imams ~7% of Muslims) are not allowing to kill any American soldier unless if s/he harm an Iraqi.

But I will NOT deny that MOST Muslims and especially Arabs (15% of Muslims) hate America.

BUT every thing has a reason!

if you go back to the WWII time, you will see that Arabs used to like America and hate France and UK. And till now there are many old “military” songs in Syria that mention French in a bad way.

That is because at that time France and UK were occupying Arab lands. But right now,

1. USA is occupying Muslims” lands (Afghanistan, Iraq, maybe Syria and Iran in the future)

2. Uniting with Israel, the biggest enemies of Muslims.

3. Approve the 200 nuclear bombs that Israel had it since 1980s and fighting without hesitating the fertilizing of Uranium in Iran.

4. Not listening to the UN commands (like when occupying Iraq) and want every one to listen to UN (like what happened in Syria!)

5. Bush is putting himself as the leader of the creatures if not the lord of them and addressing our countries with undiplomatic names such as (Arc of evil, etc.)

6. The lies that was done by Bush’s congress concerning the massive weapons in Iraq.

7. What has happened in Abughraib and Guantamo jails!

THAT ALL will FORCE Muslims and especially Arabs to hate USA. But Americans should be thankful to ISLAM that preventing some zeal and eunthiastic youth from doing many 9\11. And in every Friday lecture, we hear the imams (Muslims religious’ leaders) advising Muslims to be wise and to not do idiot things like 9\11.

And that why many extremist Wahhabies addressing those Imams as KUFFAR (infidels).

So as a conclusion,


Islam is against harming any INNOCENT American (either in USA or any where).

Islam is with fighting American soldiers who are occupying Iraq.

Muslims and especially Arabs hate USA as they hated before those who occupied and humiliate them and that is because of the USA government (especially BUSH’s) unwise plans and because of the harms that many Muslims are facing from USA government.

Muslims and Arabs DONOT hate USA because they are Not Muslims.

_________________________________________

3. What USA has to do.

Arabs doesn’t want from Americans to be Muslims because simply there are many other countries are not Muslims and because about 2% of Arabs are Christians.
My previous points told you exactly what made Arabs hate USA. Palestine was the only reason, but after Bush, there are tens of reasons as I mentioned before.
Regarding what you say that (((We don't see Israelis swallowing bombs and blowing up busloads of Palestinian children. If they do it, we don't see it. )))
I don’t blame Americans. But instead I am sorry of the liar media that covers America. They mention the crimes of Israel that happen every day, but they ONLY orient the flashlights on what Palestinians do to resist.
Spend some time and look here to see the “peaceful” timeline of Israel in only 2 years against Palestinians.
www.sis.gov.eg...
Many of these events are from American or England newspaper and the others can be verified.

Please spend some time BUT imagine that such events are happening instead in Jenin, Gaza, Ramallah, and Tolkarm,, they are happening in Los Angeles, Miami, Washington, and Denver. And imagine that the names of those who are killed and arrested instead of Ahmad, Muhammad, Ali, Osama, Laila, and Fatima, they are Mike, John, George, Tom, Stephen, and Jessie.

Then know WHY many Arabs hate Israel and America.




[edit on 15-4-2005 by Islam]

[edit on 15-4-2005 by Islam]



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 03:48 AM
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Islam, you have given me new insight into the problems surrounding U.S.-Muslim relations as well as confirmed a few things I feared. I wish there were a way to separate the leader from the people as far as hatred goes, but trying to think of America as seperate from Bush would be like trying to think of Nazi Germany as seperate from Hitler. All I can say is that, in 2008 we will elect a new leader, and, God willing, one that isn't such an incredible arse in the eyes of the rest of the world.


Originally posted by Islam
Suicide in wars and battles are also PROHIBITTED. The proof is that Prophet Muhammad didn’t mention any quote about that nor his companions did such action.


I do not argue against this, but I am curious now. If Muhammad doesn't mention something, then, does that mean it is prohibited? Or is it specific to acts of war? And how leniant is the interpretation? For instance, I'm sure Muhammad made no mention of Space Travel, unless I missed some very interesting passages, yet one day that may very well be a reality. I know that previous leeway on interpretation is what eventually led to the prohibition on all intoxicants, though, so I could see it being a bit of a quandry.


Originally posted by Islam
Imagin that you are sitting with your wife, children, cousin, uncles, and aunts in a big house, and a group of people came inside. They killed some of your children, they raped some of your women relatives, they arrest some of your beloved ones, and finally they threw you all away with no shelter or a place to save you from cold, hot, rain, snow, etc.
I ask you by God, would you call those people “innocents”??????????????????


To be honest, either they or myself or wouldn't live past the first death or rape. I'd keep killing until I was incapable of moving... and then I'd use my last breath to curse them... and then I'd, like, glare or something.

However, while I will not deny there are "children" out there who are just as capable of evil as adults, I don't know that I could hold a child accountable for the crimes of the parent. If a man killed my child, I would visit justice on him, not his child. By the same token, if a child killed my fiance, I would visit the justice on the child, and not the father.

I understand that there are vast problems in trying to mete out equal justice in times of war, but many innocent Jews go to Israel each year as a pilgrimage, in much the same way that Muslims will go to Mecca. While I can understand the immediate association, is it fair to kill them too? How about the innocent tourist, or journalist who wants nothing more than to observe, and tell the world back home what goes on?

The problem with bombs is that they are indiscriminate. They don't explode and then only kill the soldiers and settlers that stole Palestinian land, they explode and kill whomever takes enough damage from the blast. It is an unjust way to wage war, a cowards way to fight a war, and does absolutely nothing to garner the Palestinians sympathy.


Originally posted by Islam
Would you believe those people??? Don’t you wish to take revenge from what savage action they’ve don’t to you and to your innocent family??? What you would feel if some one who is living far away and didn’t test any thing from the bitter life you are living and he says that YOU and your family are the terrorists and those groups are the innocents and the leaders of Peace????


Now, to be fair, I invite you to read up on Jewish history. Throughout the entire world, they have had their people slaughtered, their possessions confiscated, their lands seized, their homes burned, and what did they do? If they fought, the results were so crushing it made the thought of fighting inconceivable... so they moved to friendlier lands that, for a time, tolerated them, until a new leader came to power, and started the whole process over again.

Tevye, from Fiddler on the Roof put it best when he said, resignedly "Perhaps that's why we always wear our hats."

I also invite you to study on Native American History, who were treated in much the same way, except possibly worse, in that they were forced into concentrated areas, many thousands of miles away from the lands they knew, in a totally alien environment. My tribe, the Sac & Fox, used to live in a land filled with huge lakes and rivers and lush forests. Those that survived the massacres were further slaughtered while crossing state lines, till the less than 1% survivors were relocated to Oklahoma, possibly the ugliest terrain that America has to offer. That wasn't enough, though, their religion and even their very language, became outlawed, punishable by death.

I could go on with tragedies from around the world in history that make the Palestinian plight seem a delight in comparison. I know my own tribe would have been thrilled in comparison to only have a few miles of land taken away, some people killed, and have it left at that. Yet they've never bred a single terrorist among them. None of them has ever swallowed a bomb, walked into a crowded bus, and taken the lives of others with them. Not due to any cowardice, lack of conviction, or lack of hatred for the white man, but because of morals and the complete and utter shame the tribe would have because of them.

I don't mean to sound as if I do not sympathize with Palestine's situation, for they are going through much the same as my ancestors did. However, I think their method of retaliation is shameful and barbaric. They do have another choice. They can leave the land, with their families, in another part of Palestine, and then fight with words, using the media, the U.N., lobbyists, whatever legal ways are possible, and fight for reparations.

What Israel did to Palestine is wrong. What Palestine is doing to innocents as a result is abominable.


Originally posted by Islam
All Arabs, Muslims, and even Palestinians are from inside against the suicide bombing because it is irregular and inhumanity. BUT what can we do if that is the only thing we can do?????


The same thing all defeated parties do in such a situation, leave, and fight another day, on your own terms, and using The System. It took hundreds of years for the Native Americans to be heard, but eventually it was done, reparations were paid, and apologies made. They will never have their original lands back, but at least they have their lives, their traditions, and the respect of the American people.

So what can Palestine do? In all honesty, withdraw peacefully, making a point to document every step of the way, in as many ways as possible. Innundate the press with a New Enlightenment to fight the system non-violently. Use resources like NPR to garner ears, use your fellow Muslims in America to form lobbying groups to get heard in congress, and in the U.N. Use your rich and sympathetic neighbors resources to fund campaigns of peaceful protest. Capture on tape any atrocity committed against your people, and give those committing the atrocities no chance to film any dirty acts by your own.

That's what Palestine should do. The World does not sympathise with terrorists. They sympathize with victims. However, playing the victim card is not possible when your children swallow bombs and take out busloads of innocents.


Originally posted by Islam
- FIRST, Sayyed Qutb is NOT in any way the biggest Muslim leaders! He is among the most extremist Wahhabies on earth. And by the way, his books are prohibited to be published in many Arabic countries like Syria, my country.


Ahhhh... I had no idea. Sorry. I will remember this for future reference. I can see he strikes a bit of a sore spot, in much the same way that David Koresh strikes sore spots with Christians.


Originally posted by Islam
- SECOND, NO Muslim scholar (other than Wahhabies >1% of Muslims) makes the war on USA lawful. The war against USA will be lawful in one way. IF THE GOVERNMENT STOPPED MUSLIMS IN USA FROM PRACTICING THEIR RELIGION, and that didn’t happen and will not happen.


This brought a smile of relief to my face. There's still hope for peace between us, then, unless the Bush Dynasty finds a way to outlaw non-Christian religions... in which case, I'll be moving the hell out of America.


Originally posted by Islam
That for American civilians. BUT American soldiers who are following the insane order of the new pharaoh “Bush” and they are killing and torturing INNOCENTS, Iraqis have to fought them because they are killers obviously.

BUT even though, many Iraqis imams (especially Shiia imams ~7% of Muslims) are not allowing to kill any American soldier unless if s/he harm an Iraqi.


This I totally understand. And while I root for our troops, and hope and pray they will return home safely, I loathe the man who sent them to Iraq. War is fought by soldiers on both sides, it is their job, and thusly, when they die, it is expected, but still mourned.


Originally posted by Islam
But I will NOT deny that MOST Muslims and especially Arabs (15% of Muslims) hate America.


That saddens me, because I have no animosity at all towards Muslims. Palestinians, yes, for reasons I've already stated, but I rather like Muslims.


Originally posted by Islam
1. USA is occupying Muslims” lands (Afghanistan, Iraq, maybe Syria and Iran in the future)


Well, to be fair: we didn't want anything to do with Afghanistan till they slammed three of our planes into some buildings, we'll stay out of Iran and Syria (I think), unless we elect another monster like Bush, and Iraq...

...well...

We were duped on Iraq. Big time. I'll freely admit, I was all for the war in Iraq initially. That was before I learned about the crapstorm of lies surrounding it. Now I'm as ashamed of it as the previous generation is of Vietnam.


Originally posted by Islam
2. Uniting with Israel, the biggest enemies of Muslims.


3,000 years is a long time to swing a hatchet. Will there ever be peace between Israel and the Muslims? To bury the hatchet, as it were?


Originally posted by Islam
3. Approve the 200 nuclear bombs that Israel had it since 1980s and fighting without hesitating the fertilizing of Uranium in Iran.


(blink)... Israel has 200 nuclear bombs? Good Lord!


Originally posted by Islam
4. Not listening to the UN commands (like when occupying Iraq) and want every one to listen to UN (like what happened in Syria!)


...and the U.N. completely ignoring previous Palestinian attempts to point out the crimes on Palestinian land. I'm with you so far...


Originally posted by Islam
5. Bush is putting himself as the leader of the creatures if not the lord of them and addressing our countries with undiplomatic names such as (Arc of evil, etc.)


Yeah... ummm... if it's any consolation, that never really caught on. It's really hard to hate countries that didn't do anything to us...despite what happened in Iraq.


Originally posted by Islam
6. The lies that was done by Bush’s congress concerning the massive weapons in Iraq.


Yep...


Originally posted by Islam
7. What has happened in Abughraib and Guantamo jails!


Now, actually, those were the results of two companies: Anteon International, and CACI, Inc. They, like DynCorp, are what epitomizes the very idea of an Evil Multinational Corporation. And as far as I'm concerned, they can both rot in all the hells humanity has ever dreamt of. They disgust Americans (the ones that know about them, at least) as well as those abroad, and if we had any power to stop them, we would.


Originally posted by Islam
THAT ALL will FORCE Muslims and especially Arabs to hate USA. But Americans should be thankful to ISLAM that preventing some zeal and eunthiastic youth from doing many 9\11. And in every Friday lecture, we hear the imams (Muslims religious’ leaders) advising Muslims to be wise and to not do idiot things like 9\11.


For which we are very grateful, and our own religious and political leaders (Bush aside) urge us not to do anything stupid and start lynch mobs.

However, I noticed one common thread among your complaints.
Bush, Bush, Bush, Supporting Israel, Bush Bush, Anteon and CACI, and Bush.

Bush is not America. He's barely over 50% of America, and there's a chance even that was rigged. His approval rating is the lowest in history, and less than half a year into his re-election, people who were die-hards for him are now scratching their heads and wondering what the hell they were thinking.

America is not Bush. In much the same way that Israel is not Ariel Sharon, and he is not Israel. In fact, the two have about the same backing right now, which is to say, the nutjobs and the stubborn hard-core. Everyone else is disgusted with them both.

Now as for us supporting Israel, well... that's really not going to change as long as Palestine keeps committing terrorist acts. This is simple logic.

As for Anteon and CACI... hell, do whatever you want to them. As far as I'm concerned they're worse than the scum, but they aren't America any more than the Mafia is America. They're criminals, even by the laws of our own country, who are too powerful to stop by legal means. Hating America for the actions of Anteon and CACI is like hating Muslims for 9/11.


Originally posted by Islam
Muslims and especially Arabs hate USA as they hated before those who occupied and humiliate them and that is because of the USA government (especially BUSH’s) unwise plans and because of the harms that many Muslims are facing from USA government.

Muslims and Arabs DONOT hate USA because they are Not Muslims.


Well... is there any chance for hope of peace between us? Like I said, Bush isn't America, and neither are the criminal multinationals that shame us. We support Israel, but we do so because the other side acts like terrorist nutjobs.

I would like, in my lifetime to see peace and even understanding between the U.S. people and the Muslim countries from around the world. I don't know that it will ever be, but it's a nice dream.


Originally posted by Islam
My previous points told you exactly what made Arabs hate USA. Palestine was the only reason, but after Bush, there are tens of reasons as I mentioned before.


I guess what upsets me the most is that I am hated for something I have no control over. I have never voted for any of the Bush Dynasty. I have never worked for CACI or Anteon, nor have I ever condoned their actions.

The closest I ever come to fitting your reasons is that I have Jewish friends and relatives, most of which have, at one point, gone on a religious pilgramige to Israel, but on the flip side, I have Muslim friends whom have been to Mecca. I don't have any Muslim relatives that I know of, but that's simply a roll of the dice.

I do not hate Muslims for producing a monster like Osama Bin Laden,
Yet I am hated because America produced George W. Bush.

I do not hate Muslims for producing an evil fanatic group like Al'Qaida,
Yet I am hated because America produced an evil Corporation.

I do not hate Muslims for siding with Palestine.
Yet I am hated because my country sides with Israel.

I am hated, along with millions of my countrymen, because of these things I have no control over.

Do you see the double-standards?



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