Originally posted by Muaddib
First, i just have to wonder why in the world would anyone bring up in this discussion the pollution that people are breathing in some cities... i just have to wonder what in the world does that have to do with Islam.... and i just have to wonder who in their right mind would claim that nature can differentiate who it want's to kill.....

Second of all, and just to try to bring some sense into that mind of yours... every creature that lives dies... It is the natural process of life, whether or not they are breathing pollution...and air does not kill, it keeps you alive....if you don't think so...as I said several times...stop breathing....

You do relise things can kill as well as keep you alive right?

BTW, appart from not knowing much about biology you also seem to have some problems with mathematics... or worse, don't even know how to use a calculator.... 415,000 people dead since 2003 to 2005 does not make it 1,700 people dying a year.... Neither does over 2,000,000 divided by 17 years from 1983 to 2000 makes it 1,700 people dead a year, but 117,647 people dying a year as a result from jihad in one country alone.

I do know a bit about biology, I never caluculated the 2003-2005 one.
I believe I made a mistake in calculateing, are you going to flame me for that?

Not only that but for some reason you want us to believe now also that this jihad has something to do with the war in Iraq...yet, you failed to notice that this is not the first jihad or the first time that they have killed people because of their religion....

What?
I said iraq may have influenced the present jihad, your going off on tangents.

The war in Iraq did not start in 1983.....just a fact i thought you should know....and there have been other jihads before 1983 also, going all the way to the 7th century AD... So proclaiming that jihad is a result, or part of the result from the war in iraq is absurd...to say the least.

I never said that ethier, would you stop putting words in my mouth.

BTW, if you want to discuss "the virtues of jihad" then stay on topic instead of talking about your deluded opinions on biology or math....

I am on topic or did I stop talking about jihad after my first post.

This thread was never about biology in case you dind't know...so keep on topic please.
[edit on 9-5-2005 by Muaddib]

I am, sorry if I did go offtopic a few times but I am staying on topic.

Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by Islam

I am being locigal. Just how hard would it be to excommunicate them from the church? Or don't you understand what I am saying?

Here is the simplist of terms. Why don't the leaders of Islam kick them out of the islamic faith. Or are you sying there are no leaders? I mean if it is a true religion surely it has a chain of command in the church somewhere right?

I didn’t say scholars are not important!
But I said that scholars have limits that if they passed it they ill not be considered as scholars at all.
Their limits are the general rules, ideas, and theologies of the Quran.
If any scholar, I don’t care who, say any thing that contradicts Quran and claim that it is ISLAM, then his saying will be thrown in the nearest garbage!! If he believes so and say that what I believe but it is not ISLAM, then his ideas figure him and his followers not ISLAM!

For example, some groups of Turkish Islamic scholars allow women to not wear the scarf! This idea contradicts CLEAR VERSES from the Quranand has very weak proves if any and thus it is not accepted in Islam at all and all other scholars oppose that.

Another example is BinLaden! He is NOT a scholar even!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is clear you do not understand a word I said. I never once mentioned any scholars. I am talking about the leaders of Islam. Now I doubt you can answer the question, however I will give it one last try.

Why don't the leaders of Islam kick them out of the islamic faith. Or are you saying there are no leaders?

[edit on 4/25/2005 by shots]

The movement that people like Bin Laden are a part of was denounced by Islam hundreds of years ago. It was also condemnedp> after September the 11th and up till Iraq. Once Iraq happenend a majority of Islamic people felt the war was unjust and should not have happened the way it did. That's when it stopped.

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by Islam

Go back to what I said earlier. I said there are 3 reasons to declare a war against someone and one of it is if we are prevented from spreading our religion.
The proof of that is not in the Quran but in prophet Muhammad’s quote.

There are several points that i want to touch, but i will leave this for some other time as it is a bit too late for me. What i do want to touch at this time is what you said above.

If you are prevented from spreading Islam, you can declare war on some country, or group. It should be allowed then for other people or groups, to spread their message and teach about their own religions to Muslims, or is this also considered as a war against Islam?

They are allowed to. Good example of this is the Jewish population of Iran who are allowed to spread their own faith. If I remember correctly the Vice President or somone along those lines is Jewish in the Iranian Government. (Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, and Baha'i make up 2% of the Iranian Population and can speak of their own religions. It's common to have debates on Religion with different groups in Iran.)

Dear Islam,
Sorry about the late reply but I am at the moment in the middle of my exams.

By "Western Islamic View" I mean the new interpretation that certain groups have given Islam within the United Kingdom, etc, as I speak to a lot of High Ranking Muslim Officials within my Country and have been to meetings that the muslim council of great britain (MCB) hold.

So I can look at it from a different view, which I think can be good in this sort of situation as British Muslims are very different to Muslims in Iran, Iraq, Syria, etc, because of the way Culture has influenced them.

I hope you do not mind my words and thoughts on the topic, I just try to help educated people as I hate the "bad" view that Islam has got.

Originally posted by Odium
The movement that people like Bin Laden are a part of was denounced by Islam hundreds of years ago. It was also condemnedp> after September the 11th and up till Iraq. Once Iraq happenend a majority of Islamic people felt the war was unjust and should

Really?...

Tell that to the over 2.4 million people killed by the government of Sudan waging jihad, first on Christians, which killed about 2 million people and which started in 1983. The second jihad of Sudan started in 2003, and it is still ongoing, it has killed over 415,000 people already. That's one country.

Then there is Nigeria where Muslims are killing Muslims, as one group says the other are not really Muslims, then tehre Is kashmir where Muslim extremists are waging a war against Hindu and all other non-Muslims, Palestine, Phillipines, etc.... There are many countries in which Muslim extremists are waging a war agains all other people, including those who we call moderate Muslims.

There are many extremist Islamic countries, and millions of extremists waging the same jihad that Osama Bin Laden is waging.

[edit on 25-5-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by devilwasp

I said iraq may have influenced the present jihad, your going off on tangents.

How did it influence any jihad if jihad has been waged in the same countries it is still going on since before the war....

The WTC was also attacked back in 1993, in case you didn't know...also because of an Islamic extremist...

BTW...why is it that Islamic extremists are trying to attack countries such as France and Germany, when they have been against this war from the very beginning?....

Really?...

Tell that to the over 2.4 million people killed by the government of Sudan waging jihad, first on Christians, which killed about 2 million people and which started in 1983. The second jihad of Sudan started in 2003, and it is still ongoing, it has killed over 415,000 people already. That's one country.

Then there is Nigeria where Muslims are killing Muslims, as one group says the other are not really Muslims, then tehre Is kashmir where Muslim extremists are waging a war against Hindu and all other non-Muslims, Palestine, Phillipines, etc.... There are many countries in which Muslim extremists are waging a war agains all other people, including those who we call moderate Muslims.

There are many extremist Islamic countries, and millions of extremists waging the same jihad that Osama Bin Laden is waging.

Kashmir? Please, before you make yourself look like a fool, get some research done in regards to this region of the world and why it's being fought over. If anything, it's been the Hindu extremists that are commiting more acts of agression than the Muslims you so blatantly hate.

I think you may want to substantiate these numbers of the current number of deaths that have transpired since 2003, as you may also want to be more critical as to why this 'ethnic cleansing' is occuring in this part of the world. You have a habit of thinking very black and white, and it's been your demise many times before.

There is a difference in Islamists commiting acts of terrorism, and Islamists commiting acts of terrorism in the name of Islam.

Islam does not creat terrorism; Sociopolitical unrest creats terrorism; a sense of opression by a soveriegn, or foriegn soveriegn creats terrorism; anxiety against certain praticularities of the land create terrorism.

Deep

Originally posted by Muaddib
How did it influence any jihad if jihad has been waged in the same countries it is still going on since before the war....

The WTC was also attacked back in 1993, in case you didn't know...also because of an Islamic extremist...

It could have influenced it in many ways, gained support, lost support , etc.

BTW...why is it that Islamic extremists are trying to attack countries such as France and Germany, when they have been against this war from the very beginning?....

No terror group fights for the same reasons as another, they all fight for diffrent reasons.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep

Kashmir? Please, before you make yourself look like a fool, get some research done in regards to this region of the world and why it's being fought over. If anything, it's been the Hindu extremists that are commiting more acts of agression than the Muslims you so blatantly hate.

I think you may want to substantiate these numbers of the current number of deaths that have transpired since 2003, as you may also want to be more critical as to why this 'ethnic cleansing' is occuring in this part of the world. You have a habit of thinking very black and white, and it's been your demise many times before.

There is a difference in Islamists commiting acts of terrorism, and Islamists commiting acts of terrorism in the name of Islam.

Islam does not creat terrorism; Sociopolitical unrest creats terrorism; a sense of opression by a soveriegn, or foriegn soveriegn creats terrorism; anxiety against certain praticularities of the land create terrorism.

Deep

My demise?.... sorry dude, the one that has been making a fool of himself has been you in quite a few ocassions.

BTW, If you want to continue with your indirect smartass remarks trying to insult me, we can continue throwing insults at each other and at the end we can make sure that both of us are banned from this site....

I am aware that there are Hindu extremists, as there are Buddhist extremists, Christian extremists, ect, etc. The fact of the matter is that Muslim extremists are part of at least half the conflicts in the world.

Do I hate Muslims? as I have said on several ocasions i do not hate Muslims, if it was white supremacists creating all these conflicts in the world and if they were the ones who attacked us in 9/11 i would be bashing them instead of bashing Muslim extremists.

As for substantiating numbers, i have given several links which substanciate the numbers and everything I have said. i don't see you doing much of that.

[edit on 16-6-2005 by Muaddib]

Hi Islam and welcome. I have a question. Are you telling me that if I tell my children, my nieces and nephews that we are not of this faith and therefore they are not to take it up or follow the beliefs of your faith that I am preventing people from being informed about Islam and therefore it is Ok to kill me? (not saying you personally) I am not trying to offend anyone just trying to figure out where the proverbial (or possibly literal) line may be.

Oh darn, I lost the name of whoever posted the above. Oh well. I'm new here, bear with me.

Just my 2 - or 5 cents.

There is something I've noticed about Islam. Unlike Christianity and the other religions, people tend to come willingly to Islam. Most of the foreign Christian population and etc have been face to face converted by missionaries and the like. They come over to these countries - preferably African or predominantly muslim countries where they are quite poor and have no food and tempt them to the Christian religion by offering them "of the Lords bounty." Well this works because after all, they are hungry. I'm not saying this is always the way it's done, just that that's how a lot of the Christian, Baptist, Catholic, etc converts came to be - the foreign ones at least.

Then there is Islam. People hear about Islam and they listen. They're not forced or tempted. They simply listen or leave if they want to. Nobody said anything about killing anybody. It's a free world after all.

To the rest of the Isreali Vs. Palestine discussion. Firstly, the Jews down there are not the real Jews. Secondly, Palestine was Palestine. There never was, technically, an Isreal. Thirdly, if the Jews are at all a godfearing people, they should probably listen to their Torah and perhaps the Bible, concerning what God said about their land issues. It isn't right to commit a holocaust against a people who never pre-imptivly harmed you. It isn't fair to take their land from them simply because they try to fight for what is and what always will be theirs. There is such a thing as sharing. But certain people don't seem to want to...

Edit: ok. I'm lost. Boy these threads move fast.

[edit on 19-6-2005 by User4574]

Originally posted by GlobalDisorder
I beleive that muslims as a whole shouldnt be treated as if they are all like Osama, and Zarqawi, the American Pawns in this game.

But for all the suicide bombings, beheadings, attacks, people lost in BALI, 911 and so forth JIHAD IS something I think should have ALL its members gathered up, sent to TASMANIA along with all mass murderers and rapists and let what ever country perform nuclear testingo n the island..

solve a few problems.
the main 1,

1/ remove INBREEDING from the genepool
2/ remove Jihad from the genepool
3/ reduce costs in prison systems.


Man, im stil trying to find a negative to this idea!

Man I just wanna say your idea of us inbreeding is totally wrong and was a lame attempt at trying to be smart.

It seems most religions have a " FACTION " of extremists. This unfortunately, 'as said, in an earlier thread' tars us all with the same s?%t.

We get hooligans in all walks of life.

I have to say that the OP 'islam' is doing a great job telling ignorant people a bit more about his religion and we should all show more respect.

I work in an enviroment with christian, catholic, hindu, taoist, islam, mormon and probably raelian, scientologists, et al!

We all get on great. What i,m saying is, we are all humans with different beleifs, and a little respect goes a long way. Ive learnt so much from my friendships from people from across the globe.

After discussing things with some of my friends and acquaintances it seems apparent that everybody wants the same thing.........Peace happiness and the ability to help each other move on in life.

Are humans intelligent. Thats a catch 22!

Bravo to Islam for explaining his religion to us all.

Why is it that is if a group of palstines act, they are automatically called Muslims. But if say the Amercans or British act they are not referred to as Christians.
I think it is important to sepatate as much as posible the political motives from the religious.
Muslims Christians whatever you want to call us we are people. We are not different to each other. As much as the poticians and news channels would like us to believe. If we could see this then the contention would stop. Please people stop the hating

kx

My gosh I have just stumbled across this thread, wow! Op you have done a marvelous job here. What an undertaking to try and bring your light and perceptions to this world wide forum.

May I ask you if you have shown any of your family or friends this important piece of work? What do they think of the types of questions being asked and do they also help you to answer some of the questions?

Also do you have specific foods which you eat and consider holy? Do you fast for those back in your country suffering and going without?

Would you fall in love and marry an American woman or is it against your religion? Would others never accept her and consider her an infadel?

How do you seriously view Christianty? Catholisism, Buddism or any other religion than Islam.

Will America be attacked because of our religious differences and if so when?

Asa Lama lakum... (sp)