Do you have any question about *Jihad* ???

Originally posted by Muaddib
I have no idea what you are trying to say with the above.

What I was trying to get across is he may be right, its your opinion that he is wrong.

Oh really? so the murder of millions of people in various contries in the world by Jihad is not genocide?....

Murder of millions, over what time scale?
People use the term "jihad" as an exscuse.

How exactly is it different?...

Is it methodical and preplanned?
No, you could use the same arguement that mother nature is the biggest genocdial maniac in existance.

How in the world do you know this?... I already gave some links to what is happening to Christians and other minority religious groups in islamic countries that have islamic law or Sharia.... evidence which goes completly against what you are saying.
[edit on 5-5-2005 by Muaddib]

If it was wide spread the news would be all over it, no?
Thats in some countries, not all.....your evidence proves a few areas and mabye a few countries are hard core believers.

Originally posted by devilwasp

What I was trying to get across is he may be right, its your opinion that he is wrong.

Prove it with facts and links that my opinion is wrong...

i have already given links that proves my point.

Is it methodical and preplanned?
No, you could use the same arguement that mother nature is the biggest genocdial maniac in existance.

You obviously do not understand what genocide means...nature cannot be genocidial....

Genocide is a crime...how does nature commit crimes?.... You can't use that argument....because nature does not commit genocide....

If it was wide spread the news would be all over it, no?
Thats in some countries, not all.....your evidence proves a few areas and mabye a few countries are hard core believers.

It is all over the news if you know where to look. Most of the time normally the western media prefers not to show what is happening in other countries such as Sudan, Nigeria, Algeria, Turkey, Indonesia, Israel, Kashmir, Egypt, Kosovo, Philippines, Afghanistan and Iraq. Well, except there is coverage of iraq because the US is involved, and of course normally Israel is the country that is being portrayed as the one doing all the attacks on Palestinians.

Anyways, all of those conflicts involve radical Muslims. Those are mostly major conflicts, there are other smaller conflicts which i have not posted.

Here is a link to the current conflicts in the world right now.
members.aol.com...


[edit on 5-5-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Prove it with facts and links that my opinion is wrong...

i have already given links that proves my point.

He has already given links, I am not here to debate if it is or not.

You obviously do not understand what genocide means...nature cannot be genocidial....

Genocide is a crime...how does nature commit crimes?.... You can't use that argument....because nature does not commit genocide....

Genocide is a crime, its when large numbers of people are methodically killed.
Nature IS killing everyorginism....or more precisely air is.

It is all over the news if you know where to look. Most of the time normally the western media prefers not to show what is happening in other countries such as Sudan, Nigeria, Algeria, Turkey, Indonesia, Israel, Kashmir, Egypt, Kosovo, Philippines, Afghanistan and Iraq. Well, except there is coverage of iraq because the US is involved, and of course normally Israel is the country that is being portrayed as the one doing all the attacks on Palestinians.

Anyways, all of those conflicts involve radical Muslims. Those are mostly major conflicts, there are other smaller conflicts which i have not posted.

Here is a link to the current conflicts in the world right now.
members.aol.com...


[edit on 5-5-2005 by Muaddib]

Yes there are some radicals that provoke a riot or attack, this happens everywhere.
They tend not to post riots, because they are not serios.
Are there millions being kiled per day?
No, per week?
No, per month?
No.

Originally posted by devilwasp

Genocide is a crime, its when large numbers of people are methodically killed.
Nature IS killing everyorginism....or more precisely air is.

What in the world?.... You have got to be kidding....

Nature cannot commit genocide because nature does not only kill people of one racial, ethnic, religious, or political affiliation... it does not differentiate who dies in a natural disaster....unless you now want to swear that it does...

Here you have the definition of genocide...

Deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group.

Excerpted from.
www.google.com...:Genocide

BTW, you are not making any sense trying to prove something in which you are wrong....

Originally posted by devilwasp
Yes there are some radicals that provoke a riot or attack, this happens everywhere.
They tend not to post riots, because they are not serios.
Are there millions being kiled per day?
No, per week?
No, per month?
No.

Noone ever has committed genocide killing millions of people per day, or per week, or per month.... Noone...not even Hitler... it took years to kill millions of jewish people. Yet everyone knows it was one of the worse genocides comitted by a madman and those who follow him... so your point, whatever it is, is moot.....

Read the links that i gave in the previous page btw...it shows how many people have died in sudan alone because of jihad....

Two million people, which were murdered by radical islamists in the first jihad which began in 1983 in Sudan, not that long ago, can not have been killed by a small group of people....
It requires organization and a lot of manpower to kill this many people.... The second Jihad started in 2003...

According to independent Sudan expert Eric Reeves, the total death toll in Darfur has been consistently misreported by the mainstream press. He estimates that about 200,000 people have died from disease and hunger since February 2003, and around 215,000 from violence.

Excerpted from.
www.worldpress.org...


---edited for errors---

[edit on 5-5-2005 by Muaddib]

I have no respect for islam and believe that pope john the second was mad kissing the koran.

What i've noticed about muslims. They are voilent, full of double standards, have no real ethical or moral education. If you look at Islam and simply it's ideology.

1. Islam is the way that shall rule the earth
2. Christian's, jews and other's are subclass of people that deserve to burn in hell
3. Muslim's are allowed to kill for the spread of islam (watch muslims murderor russian soilders and see them shout allah kabar. Meaning i do this in the name of allah.
4. They see non muslim cultures are a sub-culture, the women are seen as whores and raped by muslim's at times. Australia, france and some european cultures.
5. Terrorist ideology's are supported in the koran for the purpose of instilling fear into non muslims. The koran's teaches Ransom, kidnapping, ritual beheading's and cold blooded murderor in the allah names and for final goal Islamic earth. Look at the news, lebanon, iraq, turkey, syria, saudi arabia, paki, they all follow the same patterns it's people all following the ideology of mohammed. jew's bad, ransom, kidnapping and ritual beheadings.


If you look at current muslim's today they are nothing but sheep's of this ideology it's always the same.

Jews are bad, christians are bad and just terrorist action's in order with view that islam shall rule the world. Then they start complaining about the crusades. DOUBLE STANDARDS. But fail to see their crusader into spain, france greece and eastern europe.

There whole culture and mentality is shaped by one man called mohammed. Do you really think this guys idea's of terror, barabarism and his view, should dicated to the earth people.

Jesus, or even just one prophot/philosoper of the bible had better idea's on how people should live then mohammed. Do you really think GOD the man that created bodies our DNA. Had fetish for cutting off head's? give me a break.

That GOD himself, made a mistake sending all the prophot's of the old and new testment, and then said mohammed was the his final prohot and all the rest shall be rejected?

Allah and christian GOD, are differenent people. Allah to me is just the mind of a single man called mohamemd. SO when a muslim commits a terrorist attack it's in mohammed's name. Islam is mohammed. It's Islam that murderors the inocent in terrorist acts, it's mohammed that kill's your people. Moahmmed will always live amongest the arab's, until they finally reject Islam. Then his view and actions will not effect the earth.

Muslim are better off following jesus then mohammed.

This idea that all religion's are peaceful is clearly ridcules. SOme religion's teach their society's to be ethical people and moral people, other like islam teach them to be serial killers like the people common crimnals.


Look at what happened when the spainish went uo againist the aztez's, they destroy the culture and replaced it with christianity. It's people are now the most ethical people. There are no more beheading and ritual killing's and aztez empire is dead.

aztez empire and Islamic empire are not good for the world.

[edit on 5-5-2005 by TheTruth123]

Originally posted by Muaddib
What in the world?.... You have got to be kidding....

Nature cannot commit genocide because nature does not only kill people of one racial, ethnic, religious, or political affiliation... it does not differentiate who dies in a natural disaster....unless you now want to swear that it does...

Here you have the definition of genocide...

Deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group.

Who is talking about natural disasters?
Also , nature does technically do so or are the people dieing in thousands in africa not politcal, racial or a culture group?

BTW, you are not making any sense trying to prove something in which you are wrong....

To you, I dont make sense.
To someone else then I do, I am not wrong on this.

Noone ever has committed genocide killing millions of people per day, or per week, or per month.... Noone...not even Hitler... it took years to kill millions of jewish people. Yet everyone knows it was one of the worse genocides comitted by a madman and those who follow him... so your point, whatever it is, is moot.....

Your saying that people are dieing in hundreds of thousands, I am trying to show what kind of a time scale, my point is valid.

Read the links that i gave in the previous page btw...it shows how many people have died in sudan alone because of jihad....

And how many of these were acidental?
How many of these where NOT direct killings?

Two million people, which were murdered by radical islamists in the first jihad which began in 1983 in Sudan, not that long ago, can not have been killed by a small group of people....
It requires organization and a lot of manpower to kill this many people.... The second Jihad started in 2003...

How long was the jihad on for?
2 years?
8 years?
Your points dont mean squat with out a timescale.

According to independent Sudan expert Eric Reeves, the total death toll in Darfur has been consistently misreported by the mainstream press. He estimates that about 200,000 people have died from disease and hunger since February 2003, and around 215,000 from violence.

Right ok, 200,000 form disease is not genocide.
Now we are getting somewhere, that is a rather shocking ammount of dead, over 17000 a month?
Mind you it doesnt say how they died in the violence or if the violence was related to jihad.

Originally posted by Islam
Dear vincere7:

The hateness of Islam and Muslims is rooted in your heart and I don’t think this is a way to live.

You have to put on mind that there are 1.5 Billion Muslims and the followers of BinLaden are few thousands. So in which scale you can judge the 1.5 Billions because of some dirty rats hiding in Tora Bora ??????????

I don't hate Muslims - I despise the deception - which you believe. Dirty rats in Tora Bora? Did you fail to read my last post? I believe you would rather ignore facts and rock solid proof of the Muslim cause. A few thousand you say? In your post you said no one was following Bin Laden's Jihad, but now there are a few thousand. Try a few hundred thousand. Also there are at least 50 martyr attacks a day in Iraq - thats 1200 a month. I would hope you have some intelligence, do the math.

Originally posted by Islam
Again I invite you to read and know what ISLAM says about terrorism
iiie.net...

It says bloodshed and kill. Anything else you would like to teach is a fantasy of your mind and an allegorization, sirah.

Originally posted by Islam
And again, if BinLaden and his worshippers are considered as leaders to Muslims, then WHY no Muslim out of tens of Millions in Europe and USA are following that fake god BinLaden command ????

The muslim question is, "Why are they not following us?" Answer: they are cowards and will not receive the true reward.

Originally posted by devilwasp

Who is talking about natural disasters?
Also , nature does technically do so or are the people dieing in thousands in africa not politcal, racial or a culture group?

First of it was you who said..

Genocide is a crime, its when large numbers of people are methodically killed.
Nature IS killing everyorginism....or more precisely air is.

It seems that you were implying that nature commits genocide...althou i know most of what you are writing makes no sense at all..

And air is killing people?..... what the hell does that mean?....you can't live without air in case you didn't know....

Genocide is an act in which someone, a group of people, a government or a dictator chooses to kill, cause harm, or denies the nutrients required to keep alive a certain group of people. Nature does not choose who dies, or who gets harm or who can or cannot eat....

To you, I dont make sense.
To someone else then I do, I am not wrong on this.

You are not making any sense...nature does not commint genocide, and air does not kill people....

BTW...if you believe that air is killing people, then you better stop breathing, don't take any air... stop breathing dude...

Originally posted by devilwasp
Your saying that people are dieing in hundreds of thousands, I am trying to show what kind of a time scale, my point is valid.

And how many of these were acidental?
How many of these where NOT direct killings?

People die all the time of natural causes, everyone knows that...... What I am saying is that people are being "murdered" because of jihad...there is a difference, which you obviously do not comprehend.

Here is the definition of genocide as per the UN convention on Genocide in 1948.

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Excerpted from.
www.hrweb.org...

Originally posted by devilwasp
How long was the jihad on for?
2 years?
8 years?
Your points dont mean squat with out a timescale.

Pfft, my points don't mean squat because i am not giving an exact timescale?... i already mentioned that the first part of the jihad in Sudan started and was declared in 1983...There have been several more, the last one started in that region in 2003.

Here is the link again, the figures are almost at the end of the page in that link.
www.worldpress.org...

I think we all can see whose point don't mean squat......and who is making no sense at all...

What follows below is an overview of what is happening in Sudan, and what the Nazis did to the Jewsih people which in many ways it is the same that is happening in Sudan.

April 2002

[img=http://www.crimesofwar.org/sudan-mag/images/fein-bio.gif[/img]

I describe the situation in Sudan as one of "genocide by attrition." Generally, when we think of genocide, we focus on the numbers of individuals killed directly by state and other murderers, through execution, gassing, burning, and other forms of annihilation. Genocide by attrition occurs after a group is singled out for political and civil discrimination. It is separated from the larger society, and its right to life is threatened through concentration and forced displacement, together with systematic deprivation of food, water, and sanitary and medical facilities. These measures, along with the frequent imposition of overcrowded living quarters, lead to death through disease and starvation.
..................
In the Warsaw ghetto, one of every five Jews died prior to deportation from starvation, typhus, tuberculosis, and other diseases which failed to be diagnosed. These deaths are directly attributable to German policy, which:

Allotted Jews rations whose caloric content was less than ten percent of the level needed to sustain life. From December 1940-April 1941, the Germans refused to provide any food at all to the Ghetto. "We sentence the Jews in the ghetto to death by hunger or we shoot them," a prominent SS doctor stated at a 1941 meeting of government health care professionals.2

Imposed cramped, overcrowded living quarters, which encouraged illness and contagion;


Denied heating fuel and sanitation.

All of these measures contributed to the toll of Jews dying in the Warsaw ghetto.

Excerpted from.
www.crimesofwar.org...

Now, let's continue and see what is happening in Sudan.

Turning now to Sudan, the North has systematically denied food to populations in the South, in what has to be called a "politics of famine."

Let us first consider the Dinka. Between May 1983 and May 1993, at least one in five southerners, primarily Dinka, (1.5 million) died primarily by starvation and its effects. This coincided with the Nimeiri government’s drive to Islamize the country and its imposition of Islamic religious law even on non-Moslems. These policies were further radicalized in 1989, with the coup by the National Islamic Front, which also "disappeared" opponents in what they termed "ghost houses." The NIF armed militias made up of Arab Bagarra, historical enemies of the Dinka, systematically looted the land and cattle upon which the Dinka depended for survival.

Sudan as a whole had sufficient food in the early 1980s (it was a strong exporter of sorghum to Europe and Saudi Arabia, and also received wheat from the United States); but the government methodically withheld distribution to the South. By 1983, drought was causing food shortages in the South, but it was not inevitable that these should lead to famine. The North obstructed food deliveries from relief agencies and foreign donors by denying use of the railway and other government transport, including airfields. The government and its agents stole supplies and re-sold them on the black market. They harassed, attacked, and expelled foreign aid workers. On December 21, 1989, NIF government forces shot down an MSF-France [Médecins sans Frontières] plane, killing everyone onboard. This caused some aid groups to leave Sudan, and major donors to end or sharply decrease their contributions.

There has been massive forced displacement among the Dinka, with a predictable toll from hunger and disease. The government reaction to outbreaks of meningitis and other contagious diseases in the displaced-person camps was to herd the Dinka more closely together. Fresh drinking water and medical attention have been denied.

Deprived of their land, cattle, and other assets, Dinka became increasingly vulnerable to abduction into slavery. Children in particular were snatched by the raiding militias backed by the North. My colleagues J. Millard Burr and Robert Collins calculated in their important 1995 book that at least 75,000 Dinka children had been sold into slavery in the North.3 Beginning in 1992, Southern children who had fled with their families to Khartoum were in danger of being kidnapped, herded into camps, and forcibly converted to Islam. This violates Article 2(e) of the Genocide Convention, which prohibits "forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

The Nuba: Targeted for Extinction

There have been genocide warnings on behalf of the Nuba for a number of years now—from human rights groups and relief agencies, scholars, and some members of the U.S. Congress. Upon seizing power in 1989, the NIF government dispatched Bagarra militias to raid, loot, and burn Nuba villages, causing widespread displacement, hunger, and disease. In 1992, the Governor of Kordofan unleashed a jihad against the Nuba; soon after, the pro-government Imans issued a fatwa, which imposed Islam on all non-Muslims and called for the round-up and isolation of Christian Nuba. There were targeted killings, especially of Nuba leaders; looting of land and cattle; and denial of medical treatment in the "peace camps," where Nuba have been confined for Islamization. These practices are clear violations of the Genocide Convention, Article 2, (a), (b), (c).

Excerpted from.
www.crimesofwar.org...

Originally posted by devilwasp
Right ok, 200,000 form disease is not genocide.
Now we are getting somewhere, that is a rather shocking ammount of dead, over 17000 a month?
Mind you it doesnt say how they died in the violence or if the violence was related to jihad.

As my other links showed, which you partly mentioned there were around 200,000 people who died of starvation and disease caused directly by the actions of the Islamic group, but the part which you failed to mention is that 215,000 people have been systematically murdered by these groups of jihadis....and this started in 2003.

Here is another link with info. This link is from Oct 2004.

CBS) We’ve all been hearing about something horrible in the African country of Sudan. So, 60 Minutes decided to go there to find out what’s going on. What it found was evidence of a government-backed campaign to wipe out an entire race of people.

There are at least 50,000 dead, and a million on the run — facts that led the U.S. government last month to call what was happening genocide. Correspondent Scott Pelley reports.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It started a year and a half ago in part of Sudan called Darfur. Rebels looking for a measure of freedom revolted against Sudan’s authoritarian Islamic government. The government apparently decided to end the revolt by attempting to wipe out all the native Africans in Darfur, essentially to clear the territory for the Arabs.

Excerpted from.
www.cbsnews.com...

Again, i think everyone can see clearly whose point don't mean squat....

How many people want their countries converted into Islam again? Or does anyone think anymore that jihad is good?........ i know i don't...

Back to my original point....why are we having a person trying to show us what he calls the virtues of Jihad in these boards?......

Is he trying to recruit people into Islam and his jihad?....






[edit on 6-5-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
It seems that you were implying that nature commits genocide...althou i know most of what you are writing makes no sense at all..

It does make sense, you seem to just refuse it.

And air is killing people?..... what the hell does that mean?....you can't live without air in case you didn't know....

Air both kills and gives you life, with out air we die, with it we die as well just at a much slower pace.

Genocide is an act in which someone, a group of people, a government or a dictator chooses to kill, cause harm, or denies the nutrients required to keep alive a certain group of people. Nature does not choose who dies, or who gets harm or who can or cannot eat....

Technically it does, it shaped the world as we know it and all the food in it.

You are not making any sense...nature does not commint genocide, and air does not kill people....

BTW...if you believe that air is killing people, then you better stop breathing, don't take any air... stop breathing dude...

I am makeing sense, you refuse to accept it.
Air kills you slowly, hell you have more chance of dieing from lighting than dieing from air but it slowly does kill you.

Originally posted by devilwasp
People die all the time of natural causes, everyone knows that...... What I am saying is that people are being "murdered" because of jihad...there is a difference, which you obviously do not comprehend.

I do comprehend murder, show me a link where it says they where murdered and not accidental deaths and not dieing of natural causes.

Here is the definition of genocide as per the UN convention on Genocide in 1948.

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Excerpted from.
www.hrweb.org...

Why are we going back and forth, we know the definition.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Pfft, my points don't mean squat because i am not giving an exact timescale?... i already mentioned that the first part of the jihad in Sudan started and was declared in 1983...There have been several more, the last one started in that region in 2003.

That gives me what?
2 dates when they started, thats a start and it is shocking that it didnt end acording to you.

I think we all can see whose point don't mean squat......and who is making no sense at all...

Uh no, my point is valid, you are giveing me a starting point, no finish or middle point.....I am asking a perfectly reasonable question.

What follows below is an overview of what is happening in Sudan, and what the Nazis did to the Jewsih people which in many ways it is the same that is happening in Sudan.

Is there concentration camps there?

I describe the situation in Sudan as one of "genocide by attrition." Generally, when we think of genocide, we focus on the numbers of individuals killed directly by state and other murderers, through execution, gassing, burning, and other forms of annihilation. Genocide by attrition occurs after a group is singled out for political and civil discrimination. It is separated from the larger society, and its right to life is threatened through concentration and forced displacement, together with systematic deprivation of food, water, and sanitary and medical facilities. These measures, along with the frequent imposition of overcrowded living quarters, lead to death through disease and starvation.

......Thats a lack of rights, hardly direct genocide...

..................
In the Warsaw ghetto, one of every five Jews died prior to deportation from starvation, typhus, tuberculosis, and other diseases which failed to be diagnosed. These deaths are directly attributable to German policy, which:

Allotted Jews rations whose caloric content was less than ten percent of the level needed to sustain life. From December 1940-April 1941, the Germans refused to provide any food at all to the Ghetto. "We sentence the Jews in the ghetto to death by hunger or we shoot them," a prominent SS doctor stated at a 1941 meeting of government health care professionals.2

Imposed cramped, overcrowded living quarters, which encouraged illness and contagion;


Denied heating fuel and sanitation.

All of these measures contributed to the toll of Jews dying in the Warsaw ghetto.

Excerpted from.
www.crimesofwar.org...

Now, let's continue and see what is happening in Sudan.

Turning now to Sudan, the North has systematically denied food to populations in the South, in what has to be called a "politics of famine."

Let us first consider the Dinka. Between May 1983 and May 1993, at least one in five southerners, primarily Dinka, (1.5 million) died primarily by starvation and its effects. This coincided with the Nimeiri government’s drive to Islamize the country and its imposition of Islamic religious law even on non-Moslems. These policies were further radicalized in 1989, with the coup by the National Islamic Front, which also "disappeared" opponents in what they termed "ghost houses." The NIF armed militias made up of Arab Bagarra, historical enemies of the Dinka, systematically looted the land and cattle upon which the Dinka depended for survival.

Sudan as a whole had sufficient food in the early 1980s (it was a strong exporter of sorghum to Europe and Saudi Arabia, and also received wheat from the United States); but the government methodically withheld distribution to the South. By 1983, drought was causing food shortages in the South, but it was not inevitable that these should lead to famine. The North obstructed food deliveries from relief agencies and foreign donors by denying use of the railway and other government transport, including airfields. The government and its agents stole supplies and re-sold them on the black market. They harassed, attacked, and expelled foreign aid workers. On December 21, 1989, NIF government forces shot down an MSF-France [Médecins sans Frontières] plane, killing everyone onboard. This caused some aid groups to leave Sudan, and major donors to end or sharply decrease their contributions.

There has been massive forced displacement among the Dinka, with a predictable toll from hunger and disease. The government reaction to outbreaks of meningitis and other contagious diseases in the displaced-person camps was to herd the Dinka more closely together. Fresh drinking water and medical attention have been denied.

Deprived of their land, cattle, and other assets, Dinka became increasingly vulnerable to abduction into slavery. Children in particular were snatched by the raiding militias backed by the North. My colleagues J. Millard Burr and Robert Collins calculated in their important 1995 book that at least 75,000 Dinka children had been sold into slavery in the North.3 Beginning in 1992, Southern children who had fled with their families to Khartoum were in danger of being kidnapped, herded into camps, and forcibly converted to Islam. This violates Article 2(e) of the Genocide Convention, which prohibits "forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

The Nuba: Targeted for Extinction

There have been genocide warnings on behalf of the Nuba for a number of years now—from human rights groups and relief agencies, scholars, and some members of the U.S. Congress. Upon seizing power in 1989, the NIF government dispatched Bagarra militias to raid, loot, and burn Nuba villages, causing widespread displacement, hunger, and disease. In 1992, the Governor of Kordofan unleashed a jihad against the Nuba; soon after, the pro-government Imans issued a fatwa, which imposed Islam on all non-Muslims and called for the round-up and isolation of Christian Nuba. There were targeted killings, especially of Nuba leaders; looting of land and cattle; and denial of medical treatment in the "peace camps," where Nuba have been confined for Islamization. These practices are clear violations of the Genocide Convention, Article 2, (a), (b), (c).

Excerpted from.
www.crimesofwar.org...




As my other links showed, which you partly mentioned there were around 200,000 people who died of starvation and disease caused directly by the actions of the Islamic group, but the part which you failed to mention is that 215,000 people have been systematically murdered by these groups of jihadis....and this started in 2003.

Here is another link with info. This link is from Oct 2004.

CBS) We’ve all been hearing about something horrible in the African country of Sudan. So, 60 Minutes decided to go there to find out what’s going on. What it found was evidence of a government-backed campaign to wipe out an entire race of people.

There are at least 50,000 dead, and a million on the run — facts that led the U.S. government last month to call what was happening genocide. Correspondent Scott Pelley reports.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It started a year and a half ago in part of Sudan called Darfur. Rebels looking for a measure of freedom revolted against Sudan’s authoritarian Islamic government. The government apparently decided to end the revolt by attempting to wipe out all the native Africans in Darfur, essentially to clear the territory for the Arabs.

Excerpted from.
www.cbsnews.com...

Again, i think everyone can see clearly whose point don't mean squat....

How many people want their countries converted into Islam again? Or does anyone think anymore that jihad is good?........ i know i don't...

You are tangenting from the issue, we are not saying these events did or did not happen, we are talking time scale here.
These events acording to your sources took over 2 decades, thats 20 years of more than a 1 thousand dieing each year, you know whta that means?
Multiple things such as ; genocide, racial hatred, racism , militism and not forgetting good old riots.
Jihad has been abused and currupted and changed from what it is meant to be just like freedom, justice, right and wrong.

This one government is
Back to my original point....why are we having a person trying to show us what he calls the virtues of Jihad in these boards?......

Because its his right, because he thinks it is right, because he believes in it just like people believe in say the war on terror or say the UN.

Is he trying to recruit people into Islam and his jihad?....

No just trying to explain, why cant YOU accept that?

First of all, you are making a mess, not properly quoting me and puting together what i was saying and what you are saying....

The one who is refusing to see the truth of the situation is yourself.

Once again...nature does not commit genocide...genocide is the wanton death of a particular people because of race, religion, ethnicity, or political affiliation.... nature does not differentiates who dies and who lives because of race, religion, ethcnicity, or political affiliation...thus nature cannot commit genocide... keep embarrasing yourself trying to defend your opinion which is wrong and messed up...

BTW...air does not kill...that is one of the most absurb statements i have heard. But as i said, if it is killing you, then you better stop breathing...

You are claiming that what has happened and what is happening now in Sudan is not genocide because according to you only 1,000 people are dying a year....it is not so.

You need to re-read and really comprehend what you are reading... The first part of the jihad which started in 1983 was when over 2 million christians were killed by the arab militia with the backing of the government which is Islamic and want Sharia law to rule the land...

In the second Jihad which started in 2003, and it is still ongoing there are as of now 415,000 people death. 215,000 dead from direct violence, meaning they are being murdered, the other 200,000 are being starved to death because the Arab militia and the government are not allowing any food, medicine or anything needed for sanitation to be given to certain people because they are non-Arabs.....

BTW, if you would have read the links i gave they are taking children away from the non-Arab people and puting them in schools to convert them into Islam by force....not only that but these schools are making these kids into the next generation of radical Muslims.

The following link is from 1996, but about two weeks ago there was a documentary about what is happening in Sudan, and even a video was taken from one of these schools as they were teaching young children how to be the next islamic extremists.

IS THE NIF JIHAD AN ISLAMIC ISSUE?

The Sudanese Human Rights Quarterly, Issue No. 3, April 1996

The NIF military rule has been seriously accused of seeking to eradicate the whole Sudanese nationalities under the guise of Jihad. Ustaz Abdon Agaw, Ustaza Nur Kafi, and Dr. Al-Tigani Sissi stated before the SHRO Workshop on Human Rights in The Sudan (Cairo: 1992) that, " The NIF militias have expropriated lands from indigenous inhabitants, burnt their crops, stolen their livestock, and enslaved children and women. In the Nub Mountains, tens of thousands of the Nuer people have been displaced to the desert of Northern Kordofan. 5,000 children have been transferred across the border to Libya. Many children have been destroyed and many people in the South and in the Mountains have been converted to Islam by force. The cultural identity of the Nuba is being drastically changed through the abduction of children, forced relocation and the separation of families, the Islamization of the educational system, and the denigration of local traditions and cultures. Disease has spread throughout the area."

The Legitimate Command of the Sudanese Armed Forces (SAFs) affirmed that, the security forces of the NIF regime have been responsible for the following activities: (1) receiving, accommodating, and training extremists from Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, Mauritania, Gulf States, etc., who are violently opposed to the systems of rule of their own countries. (2) Coordinating terrorist activities in the international arena to stabilize regional security. (3) Cooperation with Iran to strengthen terrorist policies and practices through interference in the internal affairs of the Arab and African states, and (4) Provision of arms, traveling documents, money, explosives, etc., to terrorist elements in Egypt and the other neighboring countries.

The conscription process of Sudanese youth and children to SAFs had been originally planned by the SAFs High Command during the 3rd democratic rule. A proposed act designated the terms and general objectives of conscription as a national obligatory service. Another act was prepared to provide for the formation of a popular defense force that would be mobilized within certain limits to assist SAFs in security affairs. Both conscription and PDFs projects were meant to reduce the high cost of financing military operations, consolidate the internal security of the State, educate the youth in the interest of peace for the benefit of Sudanese people, and attract them to participate in the development of their country.

Excerpted from.
www.shro-cairo.org...

Islam is not trying to explain, he is just hiding the truth and trying to portray jihad as something good, which it has never been.



[edit on 6-5-2005 by Muaddib]

Many people believe that the perpetrators of the atrocities of war are merely USING the religions to further their own ends.

It is perfectly reasonable for people raised Christian and Muslim to become friends and carry on a dialogue of spiritual give and take. It is not reasonable for all purposes of wars among different religions to be attributed to those differences. History and happenstance make enemies, and history and happenstance can make peace and alliances also.

Leaders of land-grabs have parlayed religious differences into long-standing historical enmities. The religious beliefs of each sides' actual, ethical, moral leaders are not really the problem in war. It's the war mentality.

The war mentality enjoys the privelege of History.

we should be stopping our misunderstandings by perhaps just getting away from the words and listen to each others' hearts. All through the '90s the spirit was stirring. Music might bring us together. And, yes, the West embarrassed itself in it's various condescensions but, if chastised, still loved the music.

www.emp3world.com...

is a song by Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan

and
www.aramusic.com...
dwc.hct.ac.ae...

Did you know hundreds of thousands of Americans died and suffered excruciating sacrifices to give you the right to free speech?

Did you know I am exercising my right to free speech?

If this is a privatly own message board than I can understand the censorship, but to deny ignorance while censoring independant view points is asinine.

You are asinine for warning me for exercising my right to free speech.

Take your socialist # and move to Europe where they only work 30 hours a week.
(probably more than you do now.)

I served in the US Military and I will not be harrasssed or bullied by any ats troll.

GOB BLESS AMERICA AND OUR RIGHT TO FREE SPEACH/

Fvck U




This was my message to the ats moderator who warned me of my speech.
I am so sick of these loser liberals.

I ask the question: Do people have the right to FREE SPEECH on these boards?

If we do not have the right to free speech on these boards how can we trust or respect anything on them?

If we do not have the right to free speech on these boards than does that mean this is a socialist or communist or facisist community?

Think real hard you moderators because your actions speak volumn about your true VALUES.

"Many people believe that the perpetrators of the atrocities of war are merely USING the religions to further their own ends. "

I think the term religion is incorrect. You can't state that religions can be used to create terror. But ideology's.

Liberals have ideology
Christians have an ideology
Muslims
Jews
Hindu's
rebulican's
homosexuals
lesbians

Religion is nothing but an ideology a way of living and thing, everyone has an ideology, either they follow their own, or follow already made one.

You can't state, that religion's cause trouble, you can only state certain ideology's mentality, way of life cause's problems. There are imperfec ideology's out there, some that are not good for mankind which just cause chao's and destruction.

The reality is the world need's a perfect ideology, universal perfect ideology. This can on'y be expect if the people deny their ignorance.

Just like the common person which gets himself into trouble all the time always arguring. But he follows no current religion, but his own ideology religon and his mentality that get him into the same mess all the time. Now if u have this person teach his mentality, his ideology to the whole nation and for them to follow it. What will you get? a chaoic nation, filled with problems and drama. What is the cause of this drama? problem? well the ideolgy they follow. That one mentality/ideology they all took up.

But the greatest benfit for a nation of people is a great ideogly for the people. Where stablity, peace, harmony, morality lives amongest the nation.

Secularism is far more dangerous, then christian, judaism, hinduism. That culture and ideology will evenually fall to pieaces.

Most followers of a religion mostly do what the founders of that religion did. In Mohammed's case he was a raider, a murderer who wanted
Islam to be the only religion to be followed in the world. Those Muslims which were converted to Islam did exactly that, by trying to convert the world into Islam by the sword. This is exactly what radicals in this dayandage are doing. They are following in the steps of Muhammed and the Muslims in the 7th century AD.

Originally posted by Muaddib
First of all, you are making a mess, not properly quoting me and puting together what i was saying and what you are saying....

The one who is refusing to see the truth of the situation is yourself.

Mabye but I am trying.

Once again...nature does not commit genocide...genocide is the wanton death of a particular people because of race, religion, ethnicity, or political affiliation.... nature does not differentiates who dies and who lives because of race, religion, ethcnicity, or political affiliation...thus nature cannot commit genocide... keep embarrasing yourself trying to defend your opinion which is wrong and messed up...

BTW...air does not kill...that is one of the most absurb statements i have heard. But as i said, if it is killing you, then you better stop breathing...

It doesnt commit genocide persay but it does kill and it can differentiaties.
Also air does kill, its an irony the stuff in the air is actually both a slow poisen, oxygen on the otherhand isnt.
I think you are confusing what I am saying. Air is not JUST oxygen.

You are claiming that what has happened and what is happening now in Sudan is not genocide because according to you only 1,000 people are dying a year....it is not so.

No, I never said that, I said it "might" be.
I also said it was 1700 a year, NOT just a thousands.
I found that number scary and worying.
Funny how this sort of thing is not reported on regular news channel huh?

You need to re-read and really comprehend what you are reading... The first part of the jihad which started in 1983 was when over 2 million christians were killed by the arab militia with the backing of the government which is Islamic and want Sharia law to rule the land...

A militia is not an army, a militia is very uncountrable.

In the second Jihad which started in 2003, and it is still ongoing there are as of now 415,000 people death. 215,000 dead from direct violence, meaning they are being murdered, the other 200,000 are being starved to death because the Arab militia and the government are not allowing any food, medicine or anything needed for sanitation to be given to certain people because they are non-Arabs.....

215,000 is a shockingly large number but you must take into effect forign involvment, the anger created by the iraq war and afghanistan will have a signifigant effect on that result.

BTW, if you would have read the links i gave they are taking children away from the non-Arab people and puting them in schools to convert them into Islam by force....not only that but these schools are making these kids into the next generation of radical Muslims.

That is scary, but I'm not here to debate what is right or wrong or how shocked I am about islamic tactics.

The following link is from 1996, but about two weeks ago there was a documentary about what is happening in Sudan, and even a video was taken from one of these schools as they were teaching young children how to be the next islamic extremists.

As above.

Islam is not trying to explain, he is just hiding the truth and trying to portray jihad as something good, which it has never been.

[edit on 6-5-2005 by Muaddib]

He is showing one side, everything has more than one side.
Take scotland, we created a large portion of the worlds first technology but we created concentration camps.....

Originally posted by devilwasp
Air both kills and gives you life, with out air we die, with it we die as well just at a much slower pace.

So we die at a much slower pace because of air. Interesting concept, show validation of this. Wihout factual evidence you are not credible.


[edit on 7-5-2005 by vincere7]

Originally posted by vincere7
So we die at a much slower pace because of air. Interesting concept, show validation of this. Wihout factual evidence you are not credible.


[edit on 7-5-2005 by vincere7]

No its part of the ageing process, unless highschool bioligy teachers lie.....but I will find more.

Originally posted by vincere7
So we die at a much slower pace because of air. Interesting concept, show validation of this. Wihout factual evidence you are not credible.

I may be missing some other point in this conversation, but dying because of the air we breathe is not a concept. The pollution in the air we breathe inside and outside is definitely not what we were intended to breathe by nature, do you really need to see all the facts to back that up? Especially those of us living in major cities, we breathe in ridiculous amounts of carcinogens just taking out the trash. It just gets worse, I'll bet pulmonary disease and lung cancers will be the leading cause of death in the near future, barring any nuclear wars that may break out.

First, i just have to wonder why in the world would anyone bring up in this discussion the pollution that people are breathing in some cities... i just have to wonder what in the world does that have to do with Islam.... and i just have to wonder who in their right mind would claim that nature can differentiate who it want's to kill.....

Second of all, and just to try to bring some sense into that mind of yours... every creature that lives dies... It is the natural process of life, whether or not they are breathing pollution...and air does not kill, it keeps you alive....if you don't think so...as I said several times...stop breathing....

BTW, appart from not knowing much about biology you also seem to have some problems with mathematics... or worse, don't even know how to use a calculator.... 415,000 people dead since 2003 to 2005 does not make it 1,700 people dying a year.... Neither does over 2,000,000 divided by 17 years from 1983 to 2000 makes it 1,700 people dead a year, but 117,647 people dying a year as a result from jihad in one country alone.

Not only that but for some reason you want us to believe now also that this jihad has something to do with the war in Iraq...yet, you failed to notice that this is not the first jihad or the first time that they have killed people because of their religion....

The war in Iraq did not start in 1983.....just a fact i thought you should know....and there have been other jihads before 1983 also, going all the way to the 7th century AD... So proclaiming that jihad is a result, or part of the result from the war in iraq is absurd...to say the least.

BTW, if you want to discuss "the virtues of jihad" then stay on topic instead of talking about your deluded opinions on biology or math....

This thread was never about biology in case you dind't know...so keep on topic please.


[edit on 9-5-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by 27jd
I may be missing some other point in this conversation, but dying because of the air we breathe is not a concept. The pollution in the air we breathe inside and outside is definitely not what we were intended to breathe by nature, do you really need to see all the facts to back that up? Especially those of us living in major cities, we breathe in ridiculous amounts of carcinogens just taking out the trash.

That could be true for some areas on the planet, but certainly not for the majority. I do not believe that, "Air is slowly killing me," but that through the aging process a human is blueprinted to die - not because of oxygen intake or variants in the air.

According to accredited (noticed I said credible) medical journals, Americans are living longer than ever before. However, we only rank # 48 in the world.

"There's good news for the New Year. Americans are living longer than at any time in history — 76.9 years, on average. This is testimony to both the vibrancy of nature and the ingenuity of man. The combination of fewer infant deaths and the longevity of seniors has extended U.S. life expectancy to an impressive 79.5 years for women and 74.1 years for men, according to the latest research conducted by the National Center for Health Statistics. In fact, centenarians now rank among the fastest-growing age groups in the nation, with an estimated 75,000 among us having celebrated their 100th birthday." Diane Katz, director of science, environment, and technology policy for the Mackinac Center for Public Policy

Today, age-adjusted death rates in the United States have reached a record low of 872.4 per 100,000 people. Infant mortality has dropped to the lowest level ever — 6.9 infant deaths per 1,000 live births. The increases that have occurred are largely confined to diseases that disproportionately affect the elderly, including Alzheimer's, pneumonitis, and influenza.

Cancer and heart disease (which together account for more than half of all deaths) also continue to decline, according to the government report. This most welcome trend wholly contradicts the popular notion of Americans as being enveloped by clouds of toxic tailpipe emissions and poisoned by pesticide-soaked produce. Air quality, in fact, has vastly improved, with carbon monoxide concentrations down a whopping 57 percent in the past two decades, and with lead down 94 percent; sulfur dioxide, 50 percent; and nitrogen dioxide, 25 percent. Moreover — aided by pesticides and a bit of genetic engineering — a diet rich in cancer-fighting fruits and vegetables has never been more abundant and affordable.

The infant mortality rate in poverty-mired Bangladesh, for example, is a tragic 69.85 deaths per 1,000 live births, compared to the United States' 6.9. Hawaii, meanwhile, boasts both a high level of median income ($48,000) and the lowest mortality rate in America — while Mississippi, with its much lower income level ($31,500), suffers the nation's worst mortality rate.

America cannot boast of the longest life expectancy worldwide. Japan currently takes top honors, apparently a consequence of its genetic homogeneity and peculiar diet. Still, no nation can equal the United States in its astonishing progress, this past century, in enriching and prolonging so many lives.

Andorra currently ranks # 1 for years lived by a group of people born in the same year.