Can anyone translate this strange tombstone?

Originally posted by akilles
Indeed, there is more to this 'grave' than at first there seems to be.

U.O. S.B
United Order of Skull And Bones? Based on the skulls to the left and right, it seems applicable.

The fact that Skull and Bones is German ties up that link nicely.

Mannheim 408 seems like a code, probably a reference to the chapter number in the area.

Funny how you go from thinking its a grave of a poor chap to thinking if ANYONE is buried there, they really are a poor chap, as their life is complelely PWNed by this Order.

Oh please Akilles he's just an Odd Fellow dude, quit speculating.

Originally posted by zerotime
I don't think there is a conspiracy behind this tombstone or anything but it really stuck me as strange looking so I photographed it. It came from a normal looking cemetery. I would not have even gave this tombstone a second thought but it had two skull and crossbones boxes to the right and left of the plate.

Picture of the Tombstone:
img142.exs.cx...

Picture of the left Skull and crossbone boxes:
img142.exs.cx...

I hope someone can help. I've been curious about this tombstone for a while.

EDIT: For a spelling error.

[edit on 4-4-2005 by zerotime]

Zerotime,

It's already been stated that this stone is for the Independent Order of Odd Fellows. The "Mannheim 408" is the name and number of the Lodge. Mannheim Lodge #408 (which was a Lodge that worked the degrees in German). The all-seeing eye and the skull & bones (NOT AT ALL connected with the college fraternity called "Skull & Bones" as has been suggested) are symbols used by the fraternity. The All-Seeing Eye being a symbol of God who sees all and the S&B representing the mortality of all humans.

The three links (already pointed out) are the main symbol of the fraternity and represent the first, second and third degrees of the fraternity called the Degrees of Friendship, Love and Truth, respectively.

I would point out that this is not a "grave" This is a marker for a section of the cemetery dedicated for the burial of members of the Odd Fellows Fraternity. This is a very common thing. Some have signs or sign-posts, etc. In some cities there are "Odd Fellows Cemeteries"

As for U.O. and S.B. well....I'll let ol' Akilles continue to speculate since he's not EVEN close.

Regards,

Senrak

(member of Jurisdiction Lodge #1, I.O.O.F., Grand Lodge of Missouri)

[edit on 6-4-2005 by senrak]

So am I SQUARE or on the LEVEL for being EVEN close.

In my post I said it wasn't a grave, and I also said, why would you place a marker of your beloved Order that :
a) doesn't mention it by name, to bystanders, making it an unmarked grave to them. The desired effect, one can imagine, as "hiding under someone's nose" comes to mind.
b) placing a marker of your beloved Order in a graveyard!

This, as well as the fact that I predicted it (the Club) is German speaking is uncanny, no? So it is a Skull and Bones 'irregular' extension, and the 408 is more than the number, it is a code for the God these bastards worship, the Dragons or Serpents of WISDOM.

Please, Senrak.

Originally posted by akilles
So am I SQUARE or on the LEVEL for being EVEN close.

If it were Masonic you might be. "Square" and "Level" play no part in the rituals and symbols of Oddfellowship.

I meant no offense, but apparently you took it that way. Oh well...

In my post I said it wasn't a grave,

That's why part of my post said "it's already been stated..."

and I also said, why would you place a marker of your beloved Order that :
a) doesn't mention it by name, to bystanders, making it an unmarked grave to them.

It does. It says "I.O.O.F." Many of the buildings say that too. It means "Independent Order of Odd Fellows" Many Masonic buildings say "A.F.& A.M." or "F.& A.M." but those who need to know....know what it means. Not secrets....just an abbreviation...

The desired effect, one can imagine, as "hiding under someone's nose" comes to mind.

Yes, they have lots to hide.....you're sure hung up on conspiracies aren't you? Fascinating...

b) placing a marker of your beloved Order in a graveyard!

Like I said...marking an area where members of that particular Lodge (Mannheim #408) are buried. Not uncommon at all.

This, as well as the fact that I predicted it (the Club) is German speaking is uncanny, no?

Not difficult to figure out if you know much about fraternal orders.

So it is a Skull and Bones 'irregular' extension,

That's a pathetic statement. You're just saying that to stir up trouble on the list. Why do you want that???

and the 408 is more than the number, it is a code for the God these bastards worship, the Dragons or Serpents of WISDOM.

Oh, so now these people that you've NEVER MET are "bastards" ????

You're filled with a lot of pent-up anger and hatred aren't you Akilles. Now why is this? Did you not get enough love when you were a kid?

I truly pity you.

"Serpents of WISDOM" huh? Sounds like something YOU should look into.

As for a "code" like I said, it's the number of the Lodge. The first Lodge founded in the state was #1, the second was #2....believe it or not...Mannheim #408 was the 408th Lodge founded in that state. In case you didn't know...Masonic Lodges in the U.S. and other places are founded the same way, in numerical Order. I belong to two Lodges, one is number 105 the other number 461. No other significance, but if you want to believe it's a "code" it really doesn't make any difference to me. Maybe it'll keep you busy trying to figure it out.

Please, Senrak.

No, please akilles.....get a real life, the one you have is obviously a very sad one.

[edit on 8-4-2005 by senrak]

Now I hate to be a bastard, but numerologically, Order of Odd Fellows, O.O.F
well, that would be 666.

So there are 407 other Odd lodges in the state? I don't believe you, sorry.

And if the people who are buried in the area are a part of the Order, why not mention their names? Or are they randomly located in the cemetery as a sort of puzzle? Each with One symbol to signify this secret?

Seriously, what of the prominence of the skulls, which you say A LOT of groups use non-morbidly.

I don't see it everyday, that's for sure, and I really feel it is inappropriate in a cemetery, that should be honoring the dead, not reminding us that we are merely skin and bones!

It is so easy to say 'The Eye' symbolizes God. Well, when did God say, "And thou shalt portray only mine eye, verily it is the graven symbol of my likeness."
NEVER.
NEVer.
Never. Know you guys like things said 3 times.

Originally posted by akilles
Now I hate to be a bastard,

Well, since you referred to ME as one...you might as well call yourself one. I don't mind.

but numerologically, Order of Odd Fellows, O.O.F well, that would be 666.

In the spirit of conspiracy fanatics you've modified it to fit your needs. Where's the "I" It's NOT OOF....it's IOOF. Independent Order of Odd Fellows. Oh, and there's the Grand United Order of Odd Fellows, the Manchester Unity Order of Odd Fellows and some more. Sorry, no Order of Odd Fellows....so 666 doesn't pan out, does it?

So there are 407 other Odd lodges in the state? I don't believe you, sorry.

Another fundamental thing about such Orders you don't understand. Sorry you think I'm lying. The Lodges are numbered in the order they're founded. At one time there were likely MORE that 408 Lodges in the state. At one time Missouri had 600+. HOWEVER, the numbers DO NOT change as older Lodges fold. A number is NOT reassigned. There were at one time Lodges of Odd Fellows, Masons, Knights of Pythias etc. in almost every city in most states. Too bad you're so skeptical, but that's OK, I don't believe 9/10's of what you say.

And if the people who are buried in the area are a part of the Order, why not mention their names?

Again, you fail to understand. This marker marks a PORTION of a CEMETERY set aside for Odd Fellows. Their names are (are you ready for this??) ON THEIR TOMBSTONES!!!!!

Or are they randomly located in the cemetery as a sort of puzzle? Each with One symbol to signify this secret?

I doubt if the families of these people would like that. Besides the idea is silly.

Seriously, what of the prominence of the skulls, which you say A LOT of groups use non-morbidly.

I wouldn't necessarily say "non-morbidly" They symbolize "mortality" the teaching that we are all humans and subject to death. The main idea being that it's our duty to live our lives uprightly and be prepared for death...and in the afterlife. Just a symbol to remind... "Memento Mori"

I don't see it everyday, that's for sure, and I really feel it is inappropriate in a cemetery, that should be honoring the dead, not reminding us that we are merely skin and bones!

It's not that we're "merely" skin and bones...it's that we're human...subject to death. Be prepared for it, respect it, and don't fear it.

It is so easy to say 'The Eye' symbolizes God. Well, when did God say, "And thou shalt portray only mine eye, verily it is the graven symbol of my likeness."

Don't know when that began or even why, except that the idea is that God sees all. For that matter when did God say "Thou shalt use a cross as a symbol of your faith" (or a crucifix or a Star of David, or fill in the blank) Just a symbol...nothing evil. A simple reminder for those who understand.

NEVER.
NEVer.
Never. Know you guys like things said 3 times.

Very good! You HAVE been paying attention after all.



[edit on 8-4-2005 by senrak]

Since Akilles is obviously pouting because he was shown to know nothing about what he was talking about (what's new) I thought that some of the thinking members of this forum might want a glimpse into what those "bastard" (as Akilles so nicely called them) Odd Fellows were about.

www.authorama.com...

Pretty evil stuff, huh? How DARE they care for the widows and orphans of their members. EVIL EVIL EVIL bastards.

My little league baseball team was sponsored by the Oddfellows.

Originally posted by akilles

***snip***

This, as well as the fact that I predicted it (the Club) is German speaking is uncanny, no? So it is a Skull and Bones 'irregular' extension, and the 408 is more than the number, it is a code for the God these bastards worship, the Dragons or Serpents of WISDOM.

How can you elude to the idea that just because this organization is German speaking that is related to the Skull and Bones fraternity?!?!?

That's quite a stretch....imho

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
My little league baseball team was sponsored by the Oddfellows.

Oh, BlackGuard, it gets worse and worse....those evil "bastards" (Akilles' description of them) actually SPONSOR a LITTLE LEAGUE TEAM? How utterly evil, nefarious and down-right despicable!

No wonder Akilles is so afraid of them and hates them so much. Who could imagine such a horrible thing?

BTW, the first time I ever heard of the I.O.O.F. was when I was a kid and some of my friends played on the I.O.O.F. little league team. My dad was in Rotary so I played for them. Since they're a service club and not a fraternal organization, Akilles probably only thinks they're "Jerks" and not necessarily "bastards"

Well they aren't too bright if they think they are doing themselves any favours calling their whole organization 'odd'. Doesn't inspire alot of confidence, imho. In elementary school, at around 11, when I played for that team, I thought the same, what an 'odd' name.

Keep in mind that this thread is about a specific object. It looks like the majority of the stuff on the tombstone has been answered. Excellent, really shows that ATS can serve to illustrate and inform, even if it comes at a price of some squabbling and terse moments.

Is there anything unaddressed about the tombstone tho?

The bit about the 'U O S B" at the bottom?

Also, anyone know what the symbolism of the 'chain' is ? Does it indicate that the owner of the tombstone belonged to a particular group within the Oddfellows?

I ask, because, in a way, it reminds me of voting cards in countries where there is high illiteracy, the parties are strongly associated with theiy symbols, because a lot of voters can't read. So symbols like that are a good quick and also somewhat 'secretive' way to convey information about they guy, rather than say havinga long list of his subgroups and honors on the stone.

By Nygdan
anyone know what the symbolism of the 'chain' is ?

The Sovereign Grand Lodge

The three links symbolize the chain that binds members together and illustrates that a fraternity is strongest when joined together. The "F" in the first link represents "Friendship", the strongest bond of fraternity that teaches goodwill and harmony. The "L" represents "Love", the basis for all life's ambitions, service to others and family. The "T" represents "Truth", the standard by which we value people and the foundation of our society.

The official three links of the Order are specified as:
The links shall be 1 3/4 inches outside length and 1 3/8 inches inside length by 15/16 inches outside width and 9/16 inches inside width.
The central link shall be dominate, linking over the first and third links.
The horizontal center of the links shall be on a 4 1/2 inch radius with the vertical center of the outer (outside) two links centered 15 degrees from the center of the middle link.
The letters 'F', 'L' and 'T' to be inserted in the links.
The colors of the links shall be: first link - White; second link - Blue; third link - Scarlet.

By Nydgen The bit about the 'U O S B" at the bottom?

I postulate that it means Union Of Small Business. There is one in Ohio, and worldwide.

[edit on 10-4-2005 by makeitso]

Germans could be in ohio because a lot of germans settled there because of the nice temperatures and the fertile soil to grow their oats barley wheat...

There are many Germans in Ohio. 1/4 of my family is German. I am going back to the graveyard, but probably not for a month or two. I will look around and take more pictures if needed. The thing that I did remember what that the surrounding tombstones did not seem to have similar markings on them. By all accounts the stones where normal, with normal names and then this plate was there with them. I'll see if anything else stands out.

Originally posted by zerotime

There are many Germans in Ohio. 1/4 of my family is German. I am going back to the graveyard, but probably not for a month or two. I will look around and take more pictures if needed. The thing that I did remember what that the surrounding tombstones did not seem to have similar markings on them. By all accounts the stones where normal, with normal names and then this plate was there with them. I'll see if anything else stands out.

zerotime,

What city was it in? I'll be glad to write to the IOOF Grand Lodge in Ohio and see if the Lodge still exists or at least get some info on it.

-Senrak

I'm not 100% sure because we visited so many that day, but I think it might have been the McKinley (Westland) Cemetery in Canton OH. I'm not sure if the cemetery is called McKinley or Westland. It is where President Mckinley is buried - most people call it McKinley but the correct name may be the Westland Cemetery.

The friend I was with at the time is coming to my house this weekend. I can ask him then. I'm pretty sure he will remember which cemetery the photo was taken at.

zerotime,

I got the following information from the Grand Secretary of Ohio, I.O.O.F. regarding Mannheim Lodge #408.

-------------------------------------
Dear Brother Karnes:
Mannheim Lodge #408 consolidated with Stark Lodge #513 in 1931, Stark Lodge consolidated with Nimisilla #39 in 1957, Nimisella Lodge consolidated with Hadassah Lodge #450 in 1975. Hadassah Lodge #450 is still an active Lodge located in Greentown Ohio. Hope this information is a help to you.
Fraternally, Hebern Hannah, Grand Secretary
Grand Lodge of Ohio IOOF
--------------------------------------

He sent me the name and address, etc. for the Secretary of Hadassah Lodge if you need or want some specific info about Mannheim Lodge, but if they closed their doors in 1931 I don't know if anyone would know much about the cemetery or not...but it's possible.

[edit on 13-4-2005 by senrak]

Originally posted by Termite197
why is the all seeing eye on the stone?

The eye is both an Oddfellow symbol and a freemasonic symbol but I don't think that there is any connection between the two orders historically or otherwise. In any case the ‘eye’ is a common enough image and I suspect that it may be found in many unrelated secret societies denoting much the same things.

it looks like the German head stones i saw when i was in Belgium.
we viseted alot of graveyards from the wars but the only german one we visited had mass graves. some of which had upwards of 500 men buried there (no wonder it looked small compaired to the allied ones), must be a german thing withe style though. but defenetly has to do with the odd fellows.