NEWS: Welcome Home Marine

Originally posted by DeusEx
Officer has all kinds of fun toys to make you miserable if you resist. You have...nothing, really.
DE

You live in Canada right? Canadian cops are a much different breed. And we have..nothing?
No, we have some things. We have language, decorum, logic, a pleasant demeanor, and if it comes down to it, violence..the same as they do. There's this perception that cops are miniature gods who must be bowed down to. That's not what they are. They're civil servants who generally do a thankless job and often end up with a superiority complex because of it. These types need to be weeded out of the force as quickly as possibly to prevent this type of situation from occuring. The cop showed up, saw a black man, and wanted to control him, because he was IMMEDIATELY perceived as a threat. That's not protecting, it's not serving, it's racism.

Grady
Are you speaking to someone in particular? I certainly hope you're not speaking to me with that comment about not respecting servicemen. I have the utmost respect for honorable men of all stripes, and I've known enough honorable Marines to last a lifetime. Mind you, what some of these new men did in Fallujah was criminal, using DU and HE to rain death down on a population center. That's another story though. Please tell me you're not talking to me with that line...

why sould you not question a false arrest. i have been though a couple police style interrigations. all they care about is trying to make you admit to guilt wheather you are guilty or not. many people have been imprisoned for admitting to a crime just so the mental TORTURE would stop.

the police were wrong in this case multiple ways. first they couldn't even go to the right place. so the moron cop is trying to arrest someone who has no idea what the f=== is going on. the "suspect" trys to question this wrongfull acusation and even though not useing any force is given a good shot of police brutality. why should he obey a requst that he dosn't understand. the police officer should have asked to see the wife to see if there was any sign of abuse. he did not, he just shot to make his life easyer. yes shoot and ask questions later. in front of the wife and kid even better. how will you expect them to obey a police officer now they have seen how the police are a law unto themselves and can do whatever they want.

no this "cop" should be charged with atempted murder and thrown in jail for grossly exceeding his authority. police need to learn not to treat every one as guilty untill they can prove themselves innocent. i for one always worry about the treatment i will recieve from the police . one beutifull example of police brutality here was when a guy shoplifted and a police chaise began (we don't know weather police brutality caused him to run). they finaly got him to stop when no less than 4 officers started to beat the liveing crap out of him includeing pistal whipping him. it was all caught on camera via a news chopper that was covering the chase. the guy couldant have fought back even if he wanted too. it quietly disapeared from the media after a couple of days.

nope this guy should sue and be awarded millions for this case of wrongfull arrest followd by his attempted murder. there was no cause that i can see for useing any force forget lethal force. this abuse of police power has got to stop. they must learn that you are INNOCENT untill proven guilty. stop the brutality by police. what this man did was not resisting arrest or atempting to harm the officer. he was only trying to figure out what was going on bfore the ghestapho took him away. he had the right to question why. the cop over reacted to a non-violent situation by useing force. just as has a bad habbit of happening. the police should be charged and arrested untill they stop brutalizeing the public they are suppost to protect.

For anyone that hasn't seen a stun gun in action you can check out the this VIDEO.

The cop is most likely in the wrong here. I could see the cop being on edge if it was something worse than a domestic disturbance call. It does appear times have changed. The best thing, don't engage law enforcement unless they engage you. I'm sure these cases will continue to rise.

It must really suck to be engaged by uniform after just leaving a war zone.

Lets say for instance that the marine was lying and he wasn't innocent, should the officer put his life on the line like he does everyday? How does the officer know that he has the wrong person? The marine should have just followed orders like he's good at and it would have been evaluated and the whole mess never would have happened.

You people all act like police are the @##holes. Picture your street without them.

This has nothing to do with being a marine and by no way am I insulted them. My two best friends are serving in Iraq right now.

Would it have been news if it wasn't a marine who had just returned home???

[edit on 3-4-2005 by I See You]

I see You
Yes, in my mind. As far as the news carrier, I can't speculate.

I think, once again, this isn't an issue that needs to build up a huge rivalry between two sides and result in getting this thread closed. This is an issue where we need to ask, could anything have been done better? Are there ways to prevent this sort of incident from happening again?

In my experience police treat white men and black men very differently. I've always been treated with respect and even jokes and smiles. I happen to be a very tall, heavily built, physically intimidating person, but that didn't stop the police from behaving in a civil manner and approaching me like a human being.

I've seen incidents involving strangers and my black friends both, where the cop acted in a very discourteous manner, going so far as to restrain the 'perceived threat' before even asking questions - that's never happened to me.

Who sees a difference?

I've lived in NY, Chicago, and LA, TOUGH towns, and I've never encountered this behavior against a white male, only black males (not to say it doesn't exist, just adding my experience). I live in a small town now, a very small town, and the police are much different. they take the time to talk to people, they hold themselves casually, they SMILE. It does wonders to improve the interactions they have.

Now, ACCORDING TO THE INFORMATION WE HAVE NOW, Jackson acted in a questioning, but peaceful manner, and tried to set the cop straight on the apartment mix up. He refused to turn around initially, and offered the cop his ID when asked. He explained the situation but the cop didn't want to listen, he wanted to restrain this man.

I think we need to look at departmental policy, and of course at prevailing social conditions, and strike a balance between officer safety, and the perceived threat they present to the community, especially the black community. The average black man spends something like a third of his life in a jail cell, and for what? For trying to get a car or a nice set of clothes through drug sales? For associating with other members of the community in groups for mutual protection and business improvement? Those behaviors in Westport are perfectly normal and tolerated, even encouraged.

But in the black community of Bridgeport, those behaviors are criminalized and men are locked up, in many cases for longer sentences than rapists and child molesters! This society is insane, and if we don't do something about it, it will implode. Of course, some people want it to implode, because they think it will be easier to rebuild once it's down to the foundation. I'm reserving judgement on that issue.

I certainly don't hate cops, I want them to get home every night to see their family. I want the same for everyone else too. This can only be accomplished by rational discussion, not by orders from police and posters to "Obey!"

"I think, once again, this isn't an issue that needs to build up a huge rivalry between two sides and result in getting this thread closed. This is an issue where we need to ask, could anything have been done better? Are there ways to prevent this sort of incident from happening again? "


Yes he could have followed the order that the officer gave him. It would have been over and no news.

"he wanted to restrain this man." For his safety


[edit on 3-4-2005 by I See You]

[edit on 3-4-2005 by I See You]

I see You
Pleasant conversation and an attempt at competance would have done much more to secure the officers safety. Most situations can be resolved with negotiation and non-threatening body language. Most police are taught these techniques, they just forget them as soon as they receive their sidearm. Some remember their training, and take pains to educate themselves on proper conflict resolution techniques - those officers are more likely to stay safe, less likely to foster resentment, less likely to lock up innocent men because of an error, and much more likely to establish good relationships with the citizens in their neighborhood.

On a somewhat related note...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is from a thread I posted earlier today. It's regarding the efforts of a RI legislator to ban stun guns in an effort to cut down on crime.

She questions the use of Tasers by civilians.



My questions regarding appropriate use of stun guns are aimed squarely in a different direction.

[edit on 3-4-2005 by WyrdeOne]

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
In answer to the above questions, I believe so, yes. That's why I postulated there might be some racism involved. I still have vivid memories of FL deputies standing outside polling booths with shotguns and riot gear, keeping blacks away from the polls in 2000.
..................

What in the world are you talking about?....

I live in Florida and this was never mentioned down here. If that would have happened it would have made news not only in Florida but in the rest of the states.

The police officer made a mistake, but so did this Marine. If the Marine would have followed the instructions the police officer was giving him, all that would have happened is that he would have been cuffed. At that time the marine could have explained the situation and the police officer could have checked and realized his mistake.

I doubt this was a case of racism.

Bottom line is this... the guy is a marine. Marines are taught to asess situations very quickly and if they feel threatened to in no way give up physical or psychological advantage of position to the other side. As far as the restraining anyone anytime for a cop's safety that is total BS and a power play on their part. The average cop comes from the bottom 20% of graduating high school classes and seems to have an almost universal power trip complex.

Muadibb
I remember hearing about it, but it may have just been BS. There was one 'well documented' roadblock near a polling place, but I'm still looking. Apparently the statements made by some people can no longer (if ever) be corroborated.

pearly-abraham.tripod.com...

www.geocities.com...

It appears to have been a well organized, though largely unsuccessful attempt to over-inflate allegations of vote fraud. There was some furor about this just after the vote, but I'm starting to think it was just left wing propaganda. Still looking, might have been supressed...

zena.secureforum.com...

www.findarticles.com...

www.afrocubaweb.com...

Okay, I could keep going, but it appears to be a lot of hype and eye witness testimony and little photo or other hard evidence. I'd like to know if arrests that day bucked the trend, I imagine that would be a good piece of evidence.

So, unless I find something amidst all the opinion, take my earlier statement as cautious, and highly biased in its source material. There appears to have been fraud on BOTH sides of the election, if some of this 'evidence' is to be believed. I say 'evidence' cautiously, because..well..just look at my articles. Not exactly AP or Reuters. Do people generally trust Reuters by the way?

You were living in FL during the 2000 election? What was it like? Do you live in an affluent neighborhood?

It amazes me everyone is not on the phone calling this yokel dept and letting them know what idiots they are. Hmm, I am sitting at home, doing nothing wrong, someone beats on the door, I answer it and it is some deputy yelling at me to turn around etc....NO I AM NOT GOING TO FOLLOW HIS ORDERS EITHER! SCREW THAT COP. If he is so careless as to overlook an address than how careless is he with evidence. To hell with that cop, he should be fired, but he won't be because are pigcops stick together in their tight little brotherhood. Talk about a secret society, why hasn't anyone here touched on that yet, the cops are the worst of all.

Even in brawls, some domestic disturbances, basic assault, and drug arrests, you ALWAYS restrain every civilian involved. That way, they don't pull a knife on you the instant you turn your back. The officer had the wrong address, but reacted all wrong. Once you're in cuffs, then the officer talks to you. You can explain your position once the officer is safe. As you can see by the other posters in this thread, the police face an actively hostile populace. I don't care how polite you are, every officer I know is still going to throw you in cuffs and make sure you're safe before questioning you.

DE

Originally posted by Sugarlump
Bottom line is this... the guy is a marine. Marines are taught to asess situations very quickly and if they feel threatened to in no way give up physical or psychological advantage of position to the other side. As far as the restraining anyone anytime for a cop's safety that is total BS and a power play on their part. The average cop comes from the bottom 20% of graduating high school classes and seems to have an almost universal power trip complex.

Marines are also taught to follow direct orders from officers. In this case a police officer is the law, and this Marine did not follow the orders. The order was not immoral. All he had to do was follow what the officer was saying and the officer wouldn't have used the taser.

If a police officer sees that a person does not do what the officer tells them, he is trained to think that this person could very well turn on him at any second. the first thing a police officer does is make sure everyone is safe, including himself.

They do stick together, but they're not all crooked/dangerous/incompetent, in fact I'd say a small percentage are, perhaps 30% or less. The problem is, you know the saying, one bad apple spoils the bunch. I've had bad experiences with cops, but they've been controllable. I've had some really funny experiences with cops too, and I've had some cops for friends.

I lost a good friend of mine who was a vice cop, he responded to 9/11 and went missing. I like to think he might be in Puerto Escondido, surrounded by beautiful women, nursing his cheap cerveza, sleeping in a hammock. I saw this guy chase a purse snatcher three blocks, after seeing the crime go down a full block away, and he caught the guy, wrestled him to the ground, and armlocked him until the on duty guys arrived. He was a good cop. The kind of cop people really appreciate. I never saw someone get a raw deal from him, and I think that's the way a lot of officers are.

Bad cops get a lot more recognition than the good ones. The good ones get recognition on the neighborhood level, but never on the national level, and only very, very rarely on the state/local media. We only hear about it when things go wrong, when they get shot (usually by someone trying to make a buck or used to dealing with bad cops).

I was just thinking about this..it's kind of funny. I bet the Marine was chastising himself for leaving Africa all the way to the station house. "It was so much safer over there!"

I wonder where he was operating? I was pretty sure US troops were out of most parts of Africa. Maybe he was an embassy guard? That's probably it.

Originally posted by Muaddib
..he is trained to think that this person could very well turn on him at any second. the first thing a police officer does is make sure everyone is safe, including himself.

The marine was thinking the EXACT same thing. He wanted to make sure he wasn't taken advantage of, make sure he wasn't deprived of his right to defend himself, make sure he wasn't framed for some crime they just so happened to need a black suspect for. Hell, he was probably still in combat mode! Sometimes it takes years to wear off, sometimes it never does. One could argue cops in violent neighborhoods are no different. They're wound so tight it's like a bandsaw. Dangerous for everyone involved.


DeusEx
I'm not saying the cop should have turned his back or put his life in danger. All he needed to do to maintain control over the situation, in my opinion and experience, is to ask some polite questions while maintaining safe distance, seek clarification, and size up the man's responses. If, after that, the cop still perceives the man to be a threat, he should request the man turn around and place his arms behind his back, if Jackson didn't comply, the cop can start to initiate the verbal stun techniques they're trained to use, and attempt to subdue the man that way.

If that fails, draw the taser and let rip. :shrug: And if that fails, he would have to shoot him. It's a staged escalation, and it's the most effective, energy conserving method to resolve disputes. There's no reason to elevate a situation to level three, if it can be remedied at level 1 or 2. Yaknow?

I think if anyone were to do an in depth study, they'd find that the good, responsive, compassionate cops follow my method, and are rewarded with appreciation and respect in return.

The cops in my neighborhood follow my policy, even when dealing with violent people, drug addicts, and the mentally insane. There has never been a shot fired in anger in my town, that I'm aware of. It's a mentality of fear that lets things get this far. Cops are afraid of citizens, citizens are TERRIFIED of cops (or hateful in equal measure), and the result is disorder and danger. Fear, in this case, is a self fulfilling prophecy.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
DeusEx
I'm not saying the cop should have turned his back or put his life in danger. All he needed to do to maintain control over the situation, in my opinion and experience, is to ask some polite questions while maintaining safe distance, seek clarification, and size up the man's responses. If, after that, the cop still perceives the man to be a threat, he should request the man turn around and place his arms behind his back, if Jackson didn't comply, the cop can start to initiate the verbal stun techniques they're trained to use, and attempt to subdue the man that way.

My understanding would be that this is an apartment building, which means there's no distance to be had. The deputy might have made a mistake, but once there's any person involved, restrain them and question them after. I frequently hear horror stories about how 'routine' domestic calls degrade into punch ups. Officer safety is the priority, because if they go down, that means that whoever did it gets a gun, some ammo, and a vest. That is bad, no matter what the punkass 15-year olds screaming 'mother**** the po-lice' say.

DE

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

The marine was thinking the EXACT same thing. He wanted to make sure he wasn't taken advantage of, make sure he wasn't deprived of his right to defend himself, make sure he wasn't framed for some crime they just so happened to need a black suspect for. Hell, he was probably still in combat mode! Sometimes it takes years to wear off, sometimes it never does. One could argue cops in violent neighborhoods are no different. They're wound so tight it's like a bandsaw. Dangerous for everyone involved.

Wyrdeone...the cop is an officer of the law, Marines should follow the orders of cops when they are civilians. The Marine was not going to be deprived of anything. And if the Marine "was still in combat mode" then the cop had more of a reason for subduing him..... The marine could have flipped at any moment and attacked the cop.

I told you before, in a situation like this one, do what the cop tells you. If it is true the police officer made an unjust arrest and put you in jail, that cop is going to pay for it later on, because there will be an investigation.

You don't argue with a police officer. A police officer doesn't know if whoever he/she is going to arrest, is going to turn on him/her. Too many people want to "be tough" and they just want to argue with a police officer like it was another regular person. But you know what? he/she is not just a regular person when he/she is wearing that uniform. Police officers like this one are just doing their job whether you agree with it or not. The first job of police officers is safety, including their own.

You want to keep arguing about it, and you want to do the same thing this Marine did, you will be charged with resisting arrest, and that will only land you in jail.

[edit on 3-4-2005 by Muaddib]

I tell you that the cops are in a war mode..shoot first ask questions later.
Thats how it is on a daily basis in this wild west i live in too.
They get away with it all the time.

Originally posted by dgtempe
I tell you that the cops are in a war mode..shoot first ask questions later.
Thats how it is on a daily basis in this wild west i live in too.
They get away with it all the time.

Really?... how many people have you seen being shot to death by cops for no reason?...

Have you ever requested to be in a police department "Ride Along Program"? Perhaps after seeing what a police officer goes through you will see why police officers are trained this way.

Sometimes you have to participate a couple of times in the Ride Along Program to see all the crap that the men and women in blue deal with in a regular basis, many times costing them their lives. Sometimes because they lowered their guard...

Before you judge all police officers, do yourself and all police officers a favor. Request to participate in a ride along program in a police department close to your area. If you want to get the full experience request for the ride along to take place where more crimes are commited in your city.


---edited for errors---

[edit on 3-4-2005 by Muaddib]