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Questions to ask an atheist...

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posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by Mohammad

Religious people are dense?Please! I know that the western educational system cancels out from their books all the discoveries Muslim scientists have made and attributes them to others.Its true.Maybe you don't believe me , but this is part of the big brainwash.



Now this I agree with you to be fairly if not almost completely true. I personally hate how our schools systems (at least mine, personally) never covered periods in time such as islamic spain. How they neve talk about averroes or avenicana who wrote the Canon.(sorry about spelling, I also have thier non western names written down wasn't one ibn-ibraham or something like that). Also cities like Cordoba, Damascus, Seville are never covered.

Well i don't want to hijack this thread anymore than what i posted. I you start a new one i would love to hear about some more of the scholars both past and present, and how they have been left out of many history books.

Edit acidently erases the quote sections

[edit on 3-4-2005 by silentlonewolf]




posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by Legalizer
...How about crab apples? Nope too hard too sour...
What are you talking about? I love crab apples. I wish they sold them in stores, but instead I must find someone who has a crab apple tree.


xu

posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 02:28 PM
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As I have been raised in a muslim country, your questions are (actually they are not really questions but rather statements) hardcoded to my brain as I heard them couple of thosuand times, from classmates aging 10 to grown up religion instructors at school (yes there was a mandatory class about islam in primary and secondary schools until 1994 here) who all repeated the same questions (statements) again, and again and again as a "proof" of gods existense. these questions you have are the top hits of the book called "believing in god in 10 questions"

first of all; absence of one thing does not mean existense of another.

Q1) can be simplified as; why am I me? why am I not another person?

A1) How can we know that I am not another person already, because even I was another person I would ask to myself "why am I me? why am I not another person?" so there is no point.

Q2) the brain is small yet can understand big, brain can't design another brain. how did nature create brain?

A2) The connections in our brains are more than the amount of sand grains on the planet, it is no simple box, give it some time, we invented the transistor only fifty years ago yet we have computers, nature had billions of years to come up with the brain. You think the nature has no brain so try this; brain is a system where there are causes and outcomes, inputs and outputs, if there are various inputs, brain takes them compares them and classifies them and then according to classification activates the neccessary action. so its a system of inputs outputs causes and outcomes and actions, just as nature is, think of nature as a brain which is as big as the planet which contains all the living and non-living things and form a conciousness. as the cells of our brain can not understand our consciousness, we can not directly percept the nature as a conscious system, but it is so obvious. in this case your understanding of god and my understanding of nature intersects however for me nature is not an almighty consciousness just a system as we all are.

Q3) The blue color of the sky and the green of the plants are designed for our comfort. How?

A3) Blue is not comfortable because it is blue, or green because it is green. Imagine that you are a caveman in ancient times the sky is grey, it is raining, the wind is so strong, lightning strikes, you are scared, you are cold (you dont have the fire yet), you get hungry, you can not hunt in this weather condition, nor you can identify the plants or fruits. And then imagine a blue sky, sun is shining, you can see everyting clearly, you can hunt,you can see the colors lively, and "pick the fruits from the "greeeen" bushes". Which one is more comfortable, forget the color. And Why is red used for stop, warning, caution, danger, achtung, etc. because in cavemans age, the women were so feisty in their monthly periods, and when our caveman spot the color, he wouldnt come near again, and the red is the color of blood so generally acompanied by pain.

Q4) There is gravity, is it a coincidence?

A3) I can't say.

Q5) sun radius / moon radius = 300 and (earth to sun) = 300 x (earth to moon) aproximately

A5) Since these are the aproximate values, they are coincidence for sure because if there was an allmighty omni-presence consciousness, she would create it precise, not aproximate.

Q6) all fruits can be carried by humans, why aren't there fruits as big as mountains, why aren't there any metal ones?

A6) I mean come on! why arent any trees that is shaped like an elephant? is it a coinsidence? nature has its limits obviously, if you are a 3 meter high person for example you wont last long your spine will crumble and eventually break. This qts is beyond me.

Q7) Day and night takes 12 hours, we need aproximately 12 hours of sleep. who designed the speed of the rotation of earth so it is as it is.

A7) We have roots in this planet that goes as far as 3 billion years. adaptation. and hour is a human made unit so that leads us to nowhere.

Q8)There are beautifull colors and patterns in nature. Who draw them?

A8) god?

Anybody can add another question, here is the formula; "A" is "A", is this coincidence? ( place your word of choice insted of the letter "A" without the quotes).

Now here is my question to you;

Can god create a stone that he can not lift? (heheh)

So there is no god, we can do anything we want there is no hell right? No actually, by knowing there is no hell or heaven and no god to apreciate you, being good and kind has more challenge than being good and kind by knowing otherwise we would burn in hell.

Dont get me wrong, I respect islam and christianity, they had their functions in the past, and life is easier when you think it wont end suddenly and meaninglessly, and imagining there is a great being in the otherside waiting to hug you and say welcome home, but unfortunately reality hurts.



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 10:46 PM
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What is it God can never do,
If eaten for too long kills you,

What's held more dear than love or life,
Hated more than death or mortal strife?

That all contented men desire,
The poorest have, yet rich require,

The miser spends and spendthrift saves,
And all men carry to their graves?



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 02:57 AM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
What is it God can never do,
If eaten for too long kills you,

What's held more dear than love or life,
Hated more than death or mortal strife?

That all contented men desire,
The poorest have, yet rich require,

The miser spends and spendthrift saves,
And all men carry to their graves?


Nothing



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 03:23 AM
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I think you might be on to something there, or onto nothing, should I say.



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 06:59 AM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Muslims adopted and absorpbed knowldge from the various cultures they assimilated. But I am yet to see any profound complex scientific truths that are exclusive to Islam that have not been discovered or studied by many other cultures around the world.


Sorry for deviating from the topic, my comments have little to do with religion, but even from the viewpoint of science, that is an extremely careless thing to say.


Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I never heard that before, and really would like more info. ie: what discoveries, and who really found them. I know similar things happened in Europe, like Columbus discovering America, lots of Europeans beat him to it. Henry Sinclair, in 1395, is one.


Here are some muslim scientists, who did much for what we know today:
Jabr Ibn Haiyan

Perhaps Jabir's major practical achievement was the discovery of mineral and others acids, which he prepared for the first time in his alembic (Anbique). Apart from several contributions of basic nature to alchemy, involving largely the preparation of new compounds and development of chemical methods, he also developed a number of applied chemical processes, thus becoming a pioneer in the field of applied science. His achievements in this field include preparation of various metals, development of steel, dyeing of cloth and tanning of leather, varnishing of water-proof cloth, use of manganese dioxide in glass-making, prevention of rusting, lettering in gold, identification of paints, greases, etc. During the course of these practical endeavors, he also developed aqua regia to dissolve gold. The alembic is his great invention, which made easy and systematic the process of distillation. Jabir laid great stress on experimentation and accuracy in his work.
*****************
As quoted from here

Then there is Ibn Zuhr (better known as Averroes). He made several discoveries and breakthroughs. He described correctly, for the first time, scabies, the itch mite and may thus be regarded as the first parasitologist. Likewise, he prescribed tracheotomy and direct feeding through the gullet and rectum in the cases where normal feeding was not possible. He also gave clinical descriptions of mediastinal tumors, intestinal phthisis, inflammation of the middle ear, pericarditis, etc.

One of the greatest medival mathematicians is Mohammad Ibn Musa al-Khawarizmi. He is the the founder of much of algebra (as named after his book), creating methods to solve simultaneous, quadratic and linear equations. He created the system of using decimal points to show fractions.



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by Mohammad
Hello , I think these are interesting.


1) Humanity has been around for thousands of years.Billions of humans have come and gone. What is that brought YOU into existence at some specific point in time? Why are you here now and not in,say , 2205?Moreover , why are you inside the body you’re in now?Why aren’t you in another body? If you didn’t chose your body , then who put you in it?

A sperm and an egg put me in my body.. and thousands of ancestors preceding.

2) How can something as small as a brain understand extremely complicated aspects
of the universe , even though it is (supposedly) a bunch of chemical
reactions and electrical signals?

You've asked a question about the brain yet trivialised it's function [and displayed your own ignorance of neurology] by using the word 'just' when you gave the answer anyway when posng the question. Why ask if you've already dismissed the answer?

But at the same time , this brain can’t create
another brain like itself , so how can nature , that has no brain create a brain?

I'm pretty sure plants have a 'nerve centre'.. and insects have brains.. do you think the creation of an insect brain is a grandeous feat of achievement?

3)How come there are some things on our planet seem that they are especially
designed for
us?

We adapted to the world.. not the other way around. :shk:

For example. The 2 most comfortable colors are blue and green , which happen
to be the color of the sky and most of the nature around us. Who chose those colors
to be there , before earth even existed?

Once upon a time we were animals and our habitat was nature- we instinctively recognise this.

4)Is it a coincidence that planets revolve around the sun , the sun rovlves around the
center of the galaxy ,and at the same time electrons revolve around the nucleus
,…Is it a coincidence that the smallest parts and the biggest parts are both
revolving? (questions 5, 6 , and 7 use the same logic)

A coincidence? It's called physics.

5) The sun is 300 times further than the moon , but the moon is 300 times smaller than the sun (these numbers are approximations). That’s why they look the same to us. But what is the chance of randomly chosing a star and a moon ,throwing them into a space around earth , and having these ratios?

1. They don't look the same to us.
2. They may look similar sometimes.. but that could be said standing on any planet.


6) How come there are so many kinds of fruits , and all of them come in sizes that are enough to feed a person or a family? If fruits were just a coincidential outcome of nature , why weren’t at least some of them the size of mountains ,

Because birds would have trouble sh!ting the seeds out to germinate and trees would break under the weight.:shk:

or why weren’t they as hard as metals?

because then they wouldn't decompose and grow seedlings.

Doesn’t it seem that some Being made them the way they are for our own comfort?

No.
[can't believe I'm going to elaborate] ..we developed 'reward' feelings [comfort/yummy] because fruit has vitamins. Most poisonous fruit on the other hand tastes bitter ['yucky']

7) Who made the earth rotate at such a speed that day and night take (approximately) 12 hours each , which is so close to the amount of time of sleep we need per day?



8) When you look at a lot of creatures such as zebras , turtles , butterflies , bees , lady bugs , leopards ,etc…. you will notice amazing color patters drawn onto them.Who drew those? Does nature have a “taste” in colors , and does it know which colors go together nicely? Does it know how to draw geometric and beautiful shapes ?

My brain is starting to hurt.
You honestly think someone 'drew' them to look pretty? Has it ever occured to you that some colours attract breeding partners.. others scare off predators.. some fruits are bright and pretty to attract birds to ingest them?

I haven't read this entire thread [can't believe I bothered replying at all]- so apologies to others if I've just repeated points.



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 02:48 AM
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If your wanting to see some kind of, proof, that made atheists think the way we do, then might we ask you, where is your god?



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 03:54 AM
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I wish people would stop spreading the myth that electrons orbit the nucleus, because they don't. If anyone is curious, go read my answer to the relevant question in my post previous to this one.



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 04:14 AM
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Here is a question for atheists, but all ye faithful can have a go at it too:


How can anyone know beyond any doubt that their reasoning, or LOGIC, is infallible? So many of you try to prove your points using well constructed arguments that make complete sense--BUT what makes you think that your logic is rooted in absolute truth?

Confused?
Well, my point is that humans have an almost unavoidable tendency to think that once they have discovered a predictable pattern, or have settled on rules that seem to completely describe a situation, or have settled on certain systems of reasoning (ahem...LOGIC), they have stumbled upon an absolute truth. Those who think this way are guilty of thinking Human Beings are at the high end of the ruler of intelligence--they think that a human can possess all the comprehension necessary to understand absolute truths. Who the HELL are we (humankind) to think that we have even the slightest grasp on what actually is a truth? How do we know that we are the most supremely intelligent beings ever to have existed ANYWHERE and that whatever we find to be true MUST be true?

Think of any other organism on this planet... Now while most Christians will argue that Man is special, most Atheists will argue that Man is just another animal, albeit the smartest one. ...ok, got the organism in your head? This organism might think that they have life all figured out, but they don't have nearly the same comprehensive abilities as humans, and as such cannot understand concepts which we can. Can a dog understand Calculus? Can an ant fathom the complexities of a black hole? Can a dolphin (bless their empathetic souls) understand what actually makes tides? From our observations we can all easily answer "no" to all of those questions. And while we can never know "for sure" that the answer is no, we can still pull from this comparison the fact that there very well might be a life form that possesses greater intelligence than humankind in a similar ratio.

So, before you Atheists and Christians (and others) go and bash each others brains out for not making any sense logically, think about your logic and how inferior it actually might be to Supreme Reasoning and Absolute Truth. Or, in other words, make sure that, whether you are cooking arguments for someone else, or eating arguments someone else cooked for you, you use a couple grains of salt.



Green



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 07:08 AM
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Originally posted by supercheetah
Electrons don't revolve around the nucleus. That's an outdated model of the atom. If the electron revolved around the nucleus, the atom would collapse in on itself very quickly. Electrons have orbitals. An orbital, in spite of its name, resembles more of a shell than an orbit.


I don't get this. I am have certainly studied more than 3rd grade science, but I still don't get you. Sure, electrons travel in orbitals, but that doesn't mean that electrons don't go around the nucleus. I am certain that the s shell is circular (or oval?). Sure, they may not follow the EXACT same path everytime if you consider the atom in 3D (It's axis of rotation can tilt), but it is still going AROUND the nucleus.

Sorry for going off-topic again. Just curious.



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 08:13 AM
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1) Humanity has been around for thousands of years.Billions of humans have come and gone. What is that brought YOU into existence at some specific point in time? Why are you here now and not in,say , 2205?Moreover , why are you inside the body you’re in now?Why aren’t you in another body? If you didn’t chose your body , then who put you in it?


Circumstance. Just as there's no divine intervention needed when I just happen to find 60 cents in my pocket and I want a soda. Coincidence.



2) How can something as small as a brain understand extremely complicated aspects
of the universe , even though it is (supposedly) a bunch of chemical
reactions and electrical signals? But at the same time , this brain can’t create
another brain like itself , so how can nature , that has no brain create a brain?


Ahh, but nature does create a brain. We call it reproduction. The brain is a result of millions of years of evolution...from a single cell organizing other cells, to the brain of man today.



3)How come there are some things on our planet seem that they are especially
designed for
us?For example. The 2 most comfortable colors are blue and green , which happen
to be the color of the sky and most of the nature around us. Who chose those colors
to be there , before earth even existed?


Aren't you putting the cart before the horse here? Who's to say they aren't "comfortable" BECAUSE we see them everyday? Who decided they were "comfortable"? This is one of your arguments???



4)Is it a coincidence that planets revolve around the sun , the sun rovlves around the
center of the galaxy ,and at the same time electrons revolve around the nucleus
,…Is it a coincidence that the smallest parts and the biggest parts are both
revolving? (questions 5, 6 , and 7 use the same logic)


No, not coincidence, we call it physics....




5) The sun is 300 times further than the moon , but the moon is 300 times smaller than the sun (these numbers are approximations). That’s why they look the same to us. But what is the chance of randomly chosing a star and a moon ,throwing them into a space around earth , and having these ratios?


You're saying God just likes the number 300? You even admitted yourself these are approximations. Not to mention, the orbits are elipses, so they don't even keep the same ratios... What is the chance? With BILLIONS OF BILLIONS of stars, moons, planets, etc., I'd say pretty damn good...




6) How come there are so many kinds of fruits , and all of them come in sizes that are enough to feed a person or a family? If fruits were just a coincidential outcome of nature , why weren’t at least some of them the size of mountains , or why weren’t they as hard as metals?Doesn’t it seem that some Being made them the way they are for our own comfort?


Probably because no creature would eat a fruit the size of a mountain, or hard as metal, so the seeds inside wouldn't spread, and the plant would then never reproduce, and thus go extinct. Perhaps that is more plausible than a God with nothing better to do than design fun little shapes and tastes of fruit?




7) Who made the earth rotate at such a speed that day and night take (approximately) 12 hours each , which is so close to the amount of time of sleep we need per day?Wasn’t it possible that each day would be years long (just like other planets?)..so who “designed” the speed to be that suitable for us humans?


More cart before the horse. If the Earth instead had about 18 hours each of daylight and darkness, who's to say we wouldn't need that much sleep? Who the hell gets 12 hours of sleep anyhow? I want THAT job!



8) When you look at a lot of creatures such as zebras , turtles , butterflies , bees , lady bugs , leopards ,etc…. you will notice amazing color patters drawn onto them.Who drew those? Does nature have a “taste” in colors , and does it know which colors go together nicely? Does it know how to draw geometric and beautiful shapes ?


Safe bet it wasn't God with a paintbrush. It's called camouflage, and it's an adaptation, an evolutionary defense. Those zebras who weren't so camouflaged got eaten before they could breed, so no more of them, hehe.... Yes, nature does know geometry. Look at a snowflake and then the laws of physics and crystalline structure.

Ok, I've answered your questions. Care to answer mine?

1. In the old days, God used to put in quite a few spectacular personal appearances when needed. Parting seas, turning someone into a pillar of salt, a global flood, etc. etc. Why hasn't he done so in over 2000 years, when surely the world is in FAR greater danger than it was in biblical times?

2. How does a God allow the majority of his creation worship other deities (i.e. the majority of the world is not Christian)? If answering with the snappy "free choice", then why not simply appear and prove himself, why depend on faith? To do so, is to be an absentee parent imho.

3. Why would God allow a turtle to live longer than his supposed favored creation?

4. If God and Satan truly exist, then why is he letting Satan win? (judging by today versus the state of affairs in biblical times)

5. According to the tenets of the faith, as long as someone believes in God, and accepts his savior, etc. even if he committed the most heinous sins imaginable, he can go to Heaven. Yet, by this same rule, one who has lived his life in goodness, and yet rejects God, would be damned. Is this a God worthy of worship?

I eagerly await your answers...


[edit on 13-4-2005 by Gazrok]



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 02:00 AM
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Incase my previous question came out wrong, in my answering to question number 1. I dont know why i am here, it just happened to be , a lot of this world and existance i will never understand and i accept that, but i wont believe in some god just because if i do, ill have some happy ending if it is indeed true. What kind of happiness would punish those who dont believe in his ways and constantly toy with his " children " just to see if people will stop believing.



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 07:24 AM
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Who / what / how caused this big bang that produced order out of chaos??

Even if the earth billions of years ago was in a position to support life, how did life suddenly appear from nothing? Zip! Nadda! Explain it.

Fair enough, say by chance life suddenly popped into existance from absolute nothing, what would the odds of this happening be?

The scientific odds of even one left-sided amino acid forming by chance is 10 to the 123rd power. In other words 1 chance in 10 followed by 123 zeros. i.e. 1 in
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

But of course, the earth was lucky and those odds were achieved in a couple of billion years.

Ok fair enough. Pity that is only ONE out of the 500 aminos necessary for the simplest life form to exist. so get that number above and times it by 500.

Ok that doesnt change anything, you say, we got lucky and we produced 500 aminos from nothing in a couple of hundred million years, and by some freaky chance they managed to all survive at once.

Ok, Fair enough.

Say we have these 500 aminos, spread out across the earth even though it is a statistical impossibility. Now they all need to be in a fraction of a millimeter of each other for even the most basic simplest cell to be formed.

So, this could happen in a comple more hundred million years! I am sure of it you say. Some very optomistic scientists would agree.

Remember that the primitave elements of earths environment are constantly breaking these amino acids down, so they only have a tiny little life span.


The chances of all these resources falling into place at the exact same time with the exact needed elements at the exact same place on earth within a few millionths of a millimeter of each other are 1 to the ERROR..Calculation overflow. Sorry, my Pentium doesn't have enough memory to even write the number.

To put it into perspective, you have a better chance of every super hot chick in the world being attracted to you and only you. And better still, they all want to crawl into your pants at the same time.

Fair enough, it could happen... but it wont and never will. So stop dreaming about it.

But then the story goes on. How was it possible that a non reproductive organism suddenly reproduced? In crease the odds by an infinite amount again.

There is a close to infinate amount of time needed for evolution to pull off its theory, even if you were to magically or should I say supernaturally, provide the basic building blocks required. This unfortunately does not fit within the schedule of how old the earth is for these exceptionally bright and gifted people.

Pity, I was so close to believing. :bnghd:



posted on Apr, 19 2005 @ 12:10 AM
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I would take the long odds, since I have seen events happen where the odds of them occuring would likely be similar. Here is one. What are the odds that someone could predict at least a week in advance where and when lightning would strike? This, imho, is exactly what happened about 20 years ago, and I was there to witness it.

I used to work with a fellow who's wife died of lung cancer, though she was a nurse who never smoked. After she passed on, he raised their two daughters as a single dad. It was about a year from her diagnosis until she was gone. Around a month before she passed on she told him that she was going to send him some kind of a sign. He is a very honest, family-oriented, devout Catholic, and I honestly cannot see him lying about something this serious. Then, from her hospital bed a week before she passed on, she told him she knew what the sign would be....lightning.
I have only been to one funeral in my life, hers, and it was scheduled for 1 P.M., one Saturday, at a local Church. As we arrived at the church it was pouring rain, very hard, the sky was completely filled with very thick, low overcast clouds, making midday as dark as if it was dusk. We sat down, got settled in, and then boom, thunder, and the lights in the church went out for a couple of minutes. My friend told me that when the thunder struck, he immediately looked at his watch and, by coincidence, it was 1 o'clock on the dot. After the funeral was over we came out to find there wasn't a cloud in the sky; I looked in every direction. Everything was soaked and still dripping wet, yet the sun was shining in a clear blue sky.
What are the odds of lightning striking right then, considering my friend's wife's promise to him?



posted on Apr, 20 2005 @ 07:29 PM
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Regarding "Big Bang Theories" : Alot disagree with this. It is not a good "explanation" in that it has to keep being revised, theories added to it-its messy and likely flawed. If not completely untrue. The Big Bang has obvious religious overtones. A controlled 'start'. Even physicists (esp the older ones) have some religious views. They want to believe, plus it fits with what they have been told. Fits popular culture too. Just because you're a brilliant scientist, that doesn't mean you're creative; much less a visionary.

Anything religious aside, those professional scientists who do hang onto the BB Theory have spent a good part of their lives on a particular thought; It is not easy to give up long held ideas that were worked on over a lifetime. Easier to try to shore them up with ancillary theories to fill in obvious gaps.

I read a book about Plasma Physics once; Plasma Theory lines up neatly with what is known of the universe. Interesting reading for those so inclined.

BTW I am an atheist.



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