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Red Lake Shooting was a "Conspiracy"

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posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 05:38 PM
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I would have thought this would have already been posted because I saw it a couple of days ago but I can't find it in the search feature, so I thought I would put it up. If it has been covered already please just delete this post.

You are probably aware that there was an additiional arrest after the shootings. Now according to this article from the Washington Post on Drudge there were up to 20 people who knew about what was going to happen. They say that at least 4 other people and Jeff weise were exchanging emails while planning what was to happen.

Others Aware of Red Lake Plans, Officials Say

I don't know what to comment about that, I know we are supposed to comment when we post an article, but what can you say to that? I wonder if this is indicative of this type of "event" or a newer phenomenon. I haven't heard this on the news here or elsewhere, maybe because the shooting is already "old news".

[edit on 2-4-2005 by whita]




posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 05:50 PM
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Jeff weise was typical mind-controlled individual, who was triggered to commit certain act. As usual or as a standard procedure, once the act is accomplished, to protect his programmer, the programmee ( Jeff weise ) had to kill himself. It is possible, his Delta alter or Porcelain doll alter took over his body or mind during the shooting...

his original or Front alter was pushed back while the Back or Delta alter took over. the Front alter never stood a chance...or did it?

Remember manchurian candidate...when denzel was about to shoot himself...however, someboby stop him from doing so...

I would have hope that there was somebody like that to help Jeff weise and stop him from killing himself...Maybe we could have learn more about his programmer...


[edit on 2-4-2005 by mwen]



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by mwen
Jeff weise was typical mind-controlled individual, who was triggered to commit certain act. As usual or as a standard procedure, once the act is accomplished, to protect his programmer, the programmee ( Jeff weise ) had to kill himself. It is possible, his Delta alter or Porcelain doll alter took over his body or mind during the shooting...

his original or Front alter was pushed back while the Back or Delta alter took over. [edit on 2-4-2005 by mwen]


I'm not familiar with your terminology concerning "alters," Delta, Porcelain, or otherwise. Can you direct me to more info on this topic?



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 06:26 PM
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Originally posted by mwen
Jeff weise was typical mind-controlled individual, who was triggered to commit certain act. As usual or as a standard procedure, once the act is accomplished, to protect his programmer, the programmee ( Jeff weise ) had to kill himself. It is possible, his Delta alter or Porcelain doll alter took over his body or mind during the shooting...

You're giving way too much credibility to the movie. As many survivors of the Vietnamese POW camps can tell you, you can't be programmed like that. The Vietnamese did try to program our soldiers and it really didn't work.

Manchurian Candidate is fantasy.


I would have hope that there was somebody like that to help Jeff weise and stop him from killing himself...Maybe we could have learn more about his programmer.


The "programming" came from the NeoNazi boards and propaganda that he read. These groups are not doing as much direct recruiting of members (according to a lot of analysts) but are focusing on getting "lone wolves" to act. The way they do this is by presenting certain men (who did a lot of evil) as heroes and reframing the actions of others as heroc.

So they point out that Hitler was demonized... he never killed anybody (which is true. He never picked up a gun and shot someone. He only signed orders that sent millions (including German soldiers) to their deaths.) Charles Manson is turned from the leader of a murderous drugged-out cult to a philospher who never killed anyone (right, again. He only ordered it) and lived a happy hippy idealistic life. White supremacists who staged shootouts with the law and who were killed are not presented as gun-owning psychos who shot at non-whites and threatened all their neighbors and wrote hot checks and so forth. They're presented as heroes fighting against a corrupt government (and they use the "rebel against the illegal income tax" card as well, here -- since the NeoNazi crowd likes having government services (highways repaired, etc) but they pay for these services via taxes (apparently the MagicNaziFairy will fix these things when they get into power))

It was the ideology that programmed him. Told him he could be a hero. Told him that there were things worth shooting to make the world right again. And he told others or they led him to it.

In your spare time, you might want to read a bit more on the NeoNazi groups and how they subtly twist up situations and what kind of recruiting tactics they use that sucker in troubled people. It's an interesting but scary read.

(I recommend this one particularly)
www.jjay.cuny.edu...

www.nizkor.org...

academic.udayton.edu...


[edit on 2-4-2005 by Byrd]



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 06:44 PM
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but I disagree with you on whether it is possible to "program" a person to perform on command.

Better than a novel is the book "The search for the manchurian candidate," which profiles the MKULTRA program of the CIA.

I'm sure you'll think I'm totally nuts, but I have worked in prison environments, and have seen people who were turned into lifeless shells that only became active when they received a certain stimulus. I think in Weise's case it may have been an unplanned stimulus he got from his environment. But I believe it happens, and I think I've seen it.

I think that the dude that has been blamed for killing MLK, Jr. was manipulated this way, as was Sirhan Sirhan (IMO).

I spent a lot of time studying the Jim Jones case, and I think prisons and religious enclaves are ideal places for practicing "reprogramming." Certainly, some young people find life in high school to be a very literal prison.

While I think it unlikely that this kid was intentionally programmed by someone else, I have talked to young men who were at risk of homicidal rage, and they frequently exist in a trance state during their waking lives. If anything threatens to disrupt this mental state, they become wildly violent.

I worked a case of a teenager attacking his mother when she took his video games away. I honestly believe she deprived him of his addicting trance-state.

In my experience, family members, teachers, "prison bosses," prison guards, pastors, and other authority figures are the targets of this violence. Now, if you could find a way to substitute one authority figure for another . . . voila---an unwilling assasin.




posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 11:07 PM
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Some kind of dry, yet basically interesting clinical reads on hypnosis and what can actually be accomplished, would be books by William S. Kroger.

Kroger had an interesting if questionably spotty relationship with the government and development of certain, ahhh ... hypnotic techniques.



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 11:57 PM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

Originally posted by mwen
Jeff weise was typical mind-controlled individual, who was triggered to commit certain act. As usual or as a standard procedure, once the act is accomplished, to protect his programmer, the programmee ( Jeff weise ) had to kill himself. It is possible, his Delta alter or Porcelain doll alter took over his body or mind during the shooting...

his original or Front alter was pushed back while the Back or Delta alter took over. [edit on 2-4-2005 by mwen]


I'm not familiar with your terminology concerning "alters," Delta, Porcelain, or otherwise. Can you direct me to more info on this topic?


Good question...

Are you willing to read about 500 pages on this subject...

Here a thread in which you could start...The title of the book (which is also the title of the thread) is 'The Illuminati Formula Used to Create an Undetectable Total Mind Controlled Slave' by Fritz Springmeier...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

However, the actual link of the book use be available at this address below. Now, it is Forbidden...Maybe the (Powers to Be) finally cut up to the person who provide the website...Looks like there may some thruth to Fritz book after all...


www.whale.to...

That's too bad...but you could still read some of the quotes in thread above...



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 12:00 AM
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Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by mwen
Jeff weise was typical mind-controlled individual, who was triggered to commit certain act. As usual or as a standard procedure, once the act is accomplished, to protect his programmer, the programmee ( Jeff weise ) had to kill himself. It is possible, his Delta alter or Porcelain doll alter took over his body or mind during the shooting...

You're giving way too much credibility to the movie. As many survivors of the Vietnamese POW camps can tell you, you can't be programmed like that. The Vietnamese did try to program our soldiers and it really didn't work.

Manchurian Candidate is fantasy.


I would have hope that there was somebody like that to help Jeff weise and stop him from killing himself...Maybe we could have learn more about his programmer.


The "programming" came from the NeoNazi boards and propaganda that he read. These groups are not doing as much direct recruiting of members (according to a lot of analysts) but are focusing on getting "lone wolves" to act. The way they do this is by presenting certain men (who did a lot of evil) as heroes and reframing the actions of others as heroc.

So they point out that Hitler was demonized... he never killed anybody (which is true. He never picked up a gun and shot someone. He only signed orders that sent millions (including German soldiers) to their deaths.) Charles Manson is turned from the leader of a murderous drugged-out cult to a philospher who never killed anyone (right, again. He only ordered it) and lived a happy hippy idealistic life. White supremacists who staged shootouts with the law and who were killed are not presented as gun-owning psychos who shot at non-whites and threatened all their neighbors and wrote hot checks and so forth. They're presented as heroes fighting against a corrupt government (and they use the "rebel against the illegal income tax" card as well, here -- since the NeoNazi crowd likes having government services (highways repaired, etc) but they pay for these services via taxes (apparently the MagicNaziFairy will fix these things when they get into power))

It was the ideology that programmed him. Told him he could be a hero. Told him that there were things worth shooting to make the world right again. And he told others or they led him to it.

In your spare time, you might want to read a bit more on the NeoNazi groups and how they subtly twist up situations and what kind of recruiting tactics they use that sucker in troubled people. It's an interesting but scary read.

(I recommend this one particularly)
www.jjay.cuny.edu...

www.nizkor.org...

academic.udayton.edu...


[edit on 2-4-2005 by Byrd]


I was just using the movie as an example, (fantasie or Not)...

There are plenty of other movies out there I could have used. Have you seen 'Hide and Seek'...same concept...yet the movie is fantasie...



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 12:13 AM
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Excellent points, Dr Strangecraft, though I wonder if there are some factors that might make a difference in what makes a person "programmable."


Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
I'm sure you'll think I'm totally nuts, but I have worked in prison environments, and have seen people who were turned into lifeless shells that only became active when they received a certain stimulus. I think in Weise's case it may have been an unplanned stimulus he got from his environment. But I believe it happens, and I think I've seen it.

As I understand it, from what I've read, prison is hardly a normal environment. The impact of the place is apparently so bad that those who have mental problems (including sociopaths) do not get better while in prison but in fact get worse.

And the prison is a limited and controlled environment, with a lot of people who are ... questionably sane.

That's different from, say, the GIs who went through the POW experience and very different from what happens in the outside world. If you have an extremely susceptible person with borderline personality disorders and put them into a prison environment, yes, I can see that you could probably "trigger" them to do psychotic things.

But Jeff Weise wasn't in that environment. He was in a bad environment, but it wasn't anything like a prison where you are under someone's control for 24/7.


I spent a lot of time studying the Jim Jones case, and I think prisons and religious enclaves are ideal places for practicing "reprogramming."

There are some real elements of this in the Weise case, with the "reconceptualizing" of "heroes" and he was very vulnerable to it. They praise people who think of Hitler and Manson in a positive way with terms like "clear thinker." This is pretty heady to kids who have been told they are weird and dumb.



While I think it unlikely that this kid was intentionally programmed by someone else, I have talked to young men who were at risk of homicidal rage, and they frequently exist in a trance state during their waking lives. If anything threatens to disrupt this mental state, they become wildly violent.

Agreed (which I didn't go into, but yes, I completely agree!) In his messages he says he's under treatment for depression and that he's cut himself before... and that he takes meds but he also does alcohol and drugs.

And yeah, I suspect the initial violence against his grandfather might have been related to the grandfather's girlfriend (not jealousy, but I wondered if she was partly White or not Native American.)


In my experience, family members, teachers, "prison bosses," prison guards, pastors, and other authority figures are the targets of this violence. Now, if you could find a way to substitute one authority figure for another . . . voila---an unwilling assasin.

Interesting observation... and you know, I don't know if this has been written about anywhere or not.

Thanks for the comments and Expert Opinion!



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 12:39 AM
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One thing we have to include in our strain of thoughts is that we dont know much about Jeff Weise past... or every single movement...through his life.

It does not realy matter where a person is programmed. As long as he/she fits a certain criteria. that would do.

According to Fritz, for a programming to work properly on a programmee, the programmer has be able to induced:

1) Disassociated States or MPD (done via trauma, drugs, hypnosis with drugs, and many more)
2) Amnesia Wall (around the disassociated states or alters)

However, I still think that a person can be programmed if and only if his/her Sub-conscious mind is not willing to do so...That's the only way!...otherwise it wont work.

3) So the third one would be to either trick or work the Person's Subconscious mind...coorperatively...while the person is not Conscious of it being done or not...(hypnosis and drug combo would do the trick)

'Fear is the mind killer'

---
On a second note:

With all this talk or rumor about the Fourth Reich emerging into existance...I would not be surprise if Jeff Weise was just a test run...before they actually activate certain sleepers for the Real deal..

Again this just speculation...

[edit on 3-4-2005 by mwen]



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 07:43 AM
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mwen wrote - However, the actual link of the book use be available at this address below. Now, it is Forbidden...Maybe the (Powers to Be) finally cut up to the person who provide the website...Looks like there may some thruth to Fritz book after all...

www.whale.to...


I'm not sure if this is what you meant -- but I clicked on the copy of the book on that site and it redirects you to a site you can buy the book from ...... it might be an interesting read but $69 for a book
(YIKES I have trouble spending more than $25 for any book. And I really doubt that I will find that book in my local library. Of course my hesitation to spend that much on a book probably has to do with my having at least 3 books going at one time and one in each car for just in case. Thank God for libraries.)



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 08:05 AM
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Originally posted by mwen
According to Fritz, for a programming to work properly on a programmee, the programmer has be able to induced:

1) Disassociated States or MPD (done via trauma, drugs, hypnosis with drugs, and many more)
2) Amnesia Wall (around the disassociated states or alters)

This implies that only mentally ill people will be able to be programmed. It's very very hard to induce this in a normal person.


However, I still think that a person can be programmed if and only if his/her Sub-conscious mind is not willing to do so...That's the only way!...otherwise it wont work.

3) So the third one would be to either trick or work the Person's Subconscious mind...coorperatively...while the person is not Conscious of it being done or not...(hypnosis and drug combo would do the trick)

Actually, this isn't true. I've participated in hypnosis tests and I've done some reading on it (academic) and on studies. There are some people who are almost impossible to hypnotize even when they really want to be hypnotized.

As to subconscious induction -- I'd argue that it's LESS possible now than it was 50 years ago. We have ads on tv and in the newspapers and so forth aimed at making your subconscious feel compelled to buy. And yet, I'd bet that you don't go running off to buy the very latest Nike shoe every time a new one comes out. That you don't buy every single product you see advertised and in fact that you buy stuff that isn't on the "big media campaigns."

If we were that suggestible, we'd be spending our hard-earned dollars buying housepaint that we didn't need or alcohol that we really don't care to drink or clothes that are "in" but that make us look ridiculous or perfumes/scents that clash badly with our body chemistry.

Even those with fairly broken lives are seldom compelled to go out and steal or buy the Very Latest Thing (a few are, but not many.)

There's no evidence that Weise fell into this category.

He's to be pitied, but he's not a victim. He made the choice himself and once he set the plan in motion he was locked into the scenario he picked for himself.



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 01:37 PM
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If you know how animal abusers train attack dogs . . .

They basically beat the dog for no reason and with absolutely no warning. Then, they go into the cage and pet and love on the animal with no warning of that either.

Any being, human or animal, trys desperately to figure out how to please its attackers, and make the madness stop. . .

The dog is practically grateful for the violence to be consistent, because at least then it is predictable. In abused teenagers, this is why victimized males seem to have a masochistic need to be caught, vilified, and punished. Then, at least, they are in control of their abuse. And stability in one's environment is fundamental for mental health.

The "Stockholm Syndrome" is a classic example of this. Living in constant fear, the hostage will do anything, (even identify with or love the terrorist) if it will stop the abuse.

The SLA used this technique on Patty Hearst. Their success was so total that even the courts blamed her for her siding with the terrorists. Their technique was to tie her up nude in a closet, and strap headphones on her that played different tracks in the left and right ear. One side was repetitive childrens song, or acid rock, while the other side played readings of propaganda leaflets. Meanwhile, the door would pop open every few hours, and the blindfolded Patty would be alternately raped, force-fed, or held and snuggled without warning.

Now, the high school shooter in question didn't live in that kind of totalitarian environment. As far as we know. But if you are ostracized in a small town, I can see where voices on the internet could definitely implant a new value-system. If you feel that you are a lightning-rod for abuse, if you feel fundamentally unacceptable, practically anything is possible.

It is ironic that Hitler and Manson were both instinctively adept at harnessing such needy souls, and continue to manipulate and destroy from beyond the grave.




posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 07:15 PM
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Originally posted by justme1640

mwen wrote - However, the actual link of the book use be available at this address below. Now, it is Forbidden...Maybe the (Powers to Be) finally cut up to the person who provide the website...Looks like there may some thruth to Fritz book after all...

www.whale.to...


I'm not sure if this is what you meant -- but I clicked on the copy of the book on that site and it redirects you to a site you can buy the book from ...... it might be an interesting read but $69 for a book
(YIKES I have trouble spending more than $25 for any book. And I really doubt that I will find that book in my local library. Of course my hesitation to spend that much on a book probably has to do with my having at least 3 books going at one time and one in each car for just in case. Thank God for libraries.)


justme1640:
I think the link is back up again... you don't have to buy the book anymore...



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd


However, I still think that a person can be programmed if and only if his/her Sub-conscious mind is not willing to do so...That's the only way!...otherwise it wont work.

3) So the third one would be to either trick or work the Person's Subconscious mind...coorperatively...while the person is not Conscious of it being done or not...(hypnosis and drug combo would do the trick)

Actually, this isn't true. I've participated in hypnosis tests and I've done some reading on it (academic) and on studies. There are some people who are almost impossible to hypnotize even when they really want to be hypnotized.


Oops, I made an error on my statement about the subconscious mind...it should have been that...'a person can be programmed if and only if his/her Sub-conscious mind is willing to do so...That's the only way!...otherwise it wont work...', even though the Conscious mind might not want to.

I think that's an important aspect when it comes to program or condition an individual.

So you right about what you say on the statement above.
----



As to subconscious induction -- I'd argue that it's LESS possible now than it was 50 years ago. We have ads on tv and in the newspapers and so forth aimed at making your subconscious feel compelled to buy. And yet, I'd bet that you don't go running off to buy the very latest Nike shoe every time a new one comes out. That you don't buy every single product you see advertised and in fact that you buy stuff that isn't on the "big media campaigns."

If we were that suggestible, we'd be spending our hard-earned dollars buying housepaint that we didn't need or alcohol that we really don't care to drink or clothes that are "in" but that make us look ridiculous or perfumes/scents that clash badly with our body chemistry.

Even those with fairly broken lives are seldom compelled to go out and steal or buy the Very Latest Thing (a few are, but not many.)

There's no evidence that Weise fell into this category.

He's to be pitied, but he's not a victim. He made the choice himself and once he set the plan in motion he was locked into the scenario he picked for himself.


For example, (refering back to what I said about the subconscious), since i love drinking coffee, whenever a commercial about coffee Brand comes on the media or TV. They say it is fresh and satisficing. So, I would probably tuned to that suggestion. Sooner or later, I start buying that Particular Coffee Brand.

In this example, the commercial affected me both Subconsciously and Conscioulsy...because i like drinking coffee.

If it was about cigarette, I most like would dismiss it or other unfavorable products...(still, that's questionable? for I may still want to buy it :puz




There's no evidence that Weise fell into this category.

He's to be pitied, but he's not a victim. He made the choice himself and once he set the plan in motion he was locked into the scenario he picked for himself.


True...but the way he did the act and how he died is quite typical for a programed person.

Again, we don't enough info about Weise's childhood up to his death...Maybe something happened to him during those time...that was traumatic...hence, could satisfy the first 2 criteria, which is (Disassociated States, Amnesia Wall)

Also, according to Fritz, Parents can be handlers (or programmers) to their kids.



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 09:00 PM
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If you feel like some reading go to MIT library and look up mind control. They have done a great deal of research for advertising and buisness and it is quite shocking how easy it works. On the other hand when you talk about Nam POWS they had the fortitude to fight off the control unlike the willing participants of cults that want to belive and let their minds go. So yes the propaganda spewing Nazis could cause a gulable person to react.



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 08:15 PM
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Off topic, but Byrd...

By your logic, Bush is on the same level as Manson and Hitler; he hasn't killed anyone, but he has orchestrated the killing of thousands. Then again, I guess that would be true if you think he really runs things...I think it's better to say that Bush and his cronies are on the same level. Yeah, Bush and Co., that makes more sense.


As for the topic, I dunno about a conspiracy, but I do know that something wasn't right. I heard that others knew about the attack beforehand and did nothing. It later came out that this kid was on the infamous anti-depressants. Isn't it strange how many "psycho" killers are on this crap...



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