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Was Christ A Christian?

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posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by krossfyter
im a little botherd by the fact that some of you, who i consider rather well read, intelligent and not lacking in common sense, would seriously contemplate a question such as "was Christ a Christian?".

Perhaps a lesson in cause and effect or chronological order will help clear up such an elementry issue.


Forgive me for sounding like an a hole... but i just had to get that off my chest after reading this whole post.



[edit on 3-4-2005 by krossfyter]


I agree with you here. It seems as if this is another Chicken or Egg debate.

As to whether or not Christ preached, and expected his followers to believe what modern day "christianity" preaches; based on biblical accounts I would anwer a heart felt NO!

Jesus NEVER claimed to be the SON/SUN (coincidence?) of GOD! JESUS NEVER demanded worship of himself. As a matter of fact Jesus never even existed. So there. I have posted this elsewhere amonst this site and I will continue to until actual evidence is proven to point to the contrary.

www.truthbeknown.com...

Please go read it, and do not make me post the link in full, as I will if need be.




posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 07:08 PM
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Originally posted by 1wintermute1
Jesus NEVER claimed to be the SON of GOD!


John 10:30-33

”I and the Father are one.”
Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

John 12:44-46

Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

John 8:57-59

“You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.



Originally posted by 1wintermute1
As a matter of fact Jesus never even existed. So there. I have posted this elsewhere amonst this site and I will continue to until actual evidence is proven to point to the contrary.


The best evidence that Jesus existed is that so many people wrote about the man. There is no question this man lived the only question is if he really was the son of God.

The bible is not simply a book it is a collection of books more like a library. It wasn’t written by one man, the New Testament chronicles the life of Jesus from differing perspectives. It shows that all had different perspectives of Jesus. It shows that all of them did not have a common source of information other than the life of a very real man named Jesus.

We can look at other works besides the bible that mention Jesus. Joseph ben Matthias, better known as Josephus the "Roman" historian. His history - "Jewish Antiquities" - was written around 93 AD. It is considered very reliable.


After describing the death of the Roman procurator Festus, and the appointment of Albinus to take his place in AD 62, Josephus mentions Jesus. Albinus is on his way to Palestine to take over his new position. Meanwhile, the Jewish high priest Ananus the Younger called the Jewish leaders together without the Roman procurator's okay - a huge no-no in those days of Roman rule. Ananus then has certain people he doesn't like put to death before Albinus can get there to veto his action. The passage says (Ant. 20.9.1 #167;200)

Being therefore this kind of person [a heartless Sadducee], Ananus - thinking he had a favorable opportunity because Festus had died and Albinus was still on his way - called a meeting [a 'sanhedrin'] of judges and brought into it the brother of Jesus-who-is-called-Messiah, James by name, and some others. He made the accusation that they had transgressed the law, and he handed them over to be stoned.

Now, Josephus probably only mentioned this because Ananus got himself thrown out of office. It's clear who this Jesus is, though. He was called the Messiah and had a brother who survived him named James (see Acts 12:17, 15:13). Tacitus, another Roman historian, also mentions Jesus but the point is made. Jesus really did exist, was called the Messiah, and stirred up lots of trouble even after he died.

www.jonsplace.org...



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 07:14 PM
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Originally posted by kinglizard

The best evidence that Jesus existed is that so many people wrote about the man. There is no question this man lived the only question is if he really was the son of God.

The bible is not simply a book it is a collection of books more like a library. It wasn’t written by one man, the New Testament chronicles the life of Jesus from differing perspectives. It shows that all had different perspectives of Jesus. It shows that all of them did not have a common source of information other than the life of a very real man named Jesus.

We can look at other works besides the bible that mention Jesus. Joseph ben Matthias, better known as Josephus the "Roman" historian. His history - "Jewish Antiquities" - was written around 93 AD. It is considered very reliable.


After describing the death of the Roman procurator Festus, and the appointment of Albinus to take his place in AD 62, Josephus mentions Jesus. Albinus is on his way to Palestine to take over his new position. Meanwhile, the Jewish high priest Ananus the Younger called the Jewish leaders together without the Roman procurator's okay - a huge no-no in those days of Roman rule. Ananus then has certain people he doesn't like put to death before Albinus can get there to veto his action. The passage says (Ant. 20.9.1 #167;200)

Being therefore this kind of person [a heartless Sadducee], Ananus - thinking he had a favorable opportunity because Festus had died and Albinus was still on his way - called a meeting [a 'sanhedrin'] of judges and brought into it the brother of Jesus-who-is-called-Messiah, James by name, and some others. He made the accusation that they had transgressed the law, and he handed them over to be stoned.

Now, Josephus probably only mentioned this because Ananus got himself thrown out of office. It's clear who this Jesus is, though. He was called the Messiah and had a brother who survived him named James (see Acts 12:17, 15:13). Tacitus, another Roman historian, also mentions Jesus but the point is made. Jesus really did exist, was called the Messiah, and stirred up lots of trouble even after he died.

www.jonsplace.org...



You still have only given a couple of references to the historical Jesus......So Once again I ask you where are these "multiple"references to him throughout non biblical scripture?

Even all your claims of James being his brother have been dis-proven. (if you want me to post liks I will)

All I want to know is where all these non biblical references are? You all claim they are there , yet you can't substantiate the record......why is that?



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by 1wintermute1

Originally posted by krossfyter
im a little botherd by the fact that some of you, who i consider rather well read, intelligent and not lacking in common sense, would seriously contemplate a question such as "was Christ a Christian?".

Perhaps a lesson in cause and effect or chronological order will help clear up such an elementry issue.


Forgive me for sounding like an a hole... but i just had to get that off my chest after reading this whole post.



[edit on 3-4-2005 by krossfyter]


I agree with you here. It seems as if this is another Chicken or Egg debate.

As to whether or not Christ preached, and expected his followers to believe what modern day "christianity" preaches; based on biblical accounts I would anwer a heart felt NO!

Jesus NEVER claimed to be the SON/SUN (coincidence?) of GOD! JESUS NEVER demanded worship of himself. As a matter of fact Jesus never even existed. So there. I have posted this elsewhere amonst this site and I will continue to until actual evidence is proven to point to the contrary.

www.truthbeknown.com...

Please go read it, and do not make me post the link in full, as I will if need be.
That is a good read. I wish it were written more like a scientific/archaeological hypothesis for a journal, but c'est la vie.



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 07:36 PM
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Originally posted by 1wintermute1
You still have only given a couple of references to the historical Jesus


How many do you require.



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 07:38 PM
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Originally posted by kinglizard

Originally posted by 1wintermute1
You still have only given a couple of references to the historical Jesus


How many do you require.


With all due respect I require one that is not disputed



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 07:47 PM
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Joseph ben Matthias and his book "Jewish Antiquities" is reliable. It’s a historical document that recorded Roman history, it has nothing to do with the bible. Sorry I don't know of any other.



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 08:02 PM
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was christ a christian? ....
...He tried His best



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 08:34 PM
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There are many passages in the bible referring to Jesus physical characteristics. Dark skinned and having the hair of a lamb. Jesus was a Black Jew.



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by kinglizard
Joseph ben Matthias and his book "Jewish Antiquities" is reliable. It’s a historical document that recorded Roman history, it has nothing to do with the bible. Sorry I don't know of any other.


And I will research your claim......

At least you can admit that that is the only reference that you are aware of. Please allow me to get back to you.

Thank you
Eric



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 09:04 PM
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Yes Christ is a Christian! In fact he is the leader of the "Church" not the Catholic Church but the collective body of born-again believers. The term "Christian" simply did not exist at the time. Jesus was born a Jew and believed in the Jewish God obviously, but his message was that he is the "new deal" and that they (the Jews) should vest their faith in him, and through him is the way to the father (God) and forgiveness. So the fact he was a Jew is irrelevant, especially since he welcomed Gentiles (non-Jews).

Jesus was not a pawn and in many respects he wasn't even humble. He outrightly proclaimed that he is the way to the father and that if he wanted, he could some legions of angels to his aide. He proclaimed that the prophesy of the Old Testaments were the stories of his life.

As far as crucifixion was concerned, Jesus was meant to be the sacrifice needed to forgive the human race, as the traditional means were no longer acceptable to God. Also, the he, and not priest (human mediators) would be the key to grace, as priests were not infallable. The new deal was where you wouldn't have to depend on another human for your salvation.

It all comes down to...you either believe Jesus was Christ, or you don't. If you read the Bible and believe what it says, then you believe he was Christ, if you don't, you don't. But don't try to change or ignore the accounts of Jesus in the Bible because that's written and that's basically all we have to work with. Anything else is just jibbersh.



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 09:09 PM
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Originally posted by SonofSpy
There are many passages in the bible referring to Jesus physical characteristics. Dark skinned and having the hair of a lamb. Jesus was a Black Jew.

Just to confirm your claim, other than the reference in revelations to him having white, wooly hair when he returns, could you point out where it says this. I don't need all of the many passages, one or two would do.



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 09:17 PM
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Originally posted by 1wintermute1

Originally posted by kinglizard
Joseph ben Matthias and his book "Jewish Antiquities" is reliable. It’s a historical document that recorded Roman history, it has nothing to do with the bible. Sorry I don't know of any other.


And I will research your claim......

At least you can admit that that is the only reference that you are aware of. Please allow me to get back to you.

Thank you
Eric

Josephus is a dubious source imho. He wrote that he had been a Jewish General that fought the Romans, even describing pouring boiling oil on them. Then he claims he was captured, and instead of being killed, was made a commander in the Roman army. Honestly, does anyone else here find that story unbelievable. I cannot imagine the Romans not executing him, let alone giving him command of an army.
One book I read made a good case for the idea that he not only wrote of Jesus in the book cited above, but that he was the author of the 4 gospels, as well. If so, it would explain the utter void of any contemporary reference to any of Jesus family, or entourage outside of the NT and Jewish Antiquities. An interesting note to ponder is that Josephus' writing was so well received in Rome, that a couple of generations later, one of his descendents became Caesar. He benefitted immensely from his skilled penmanship.



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 09:21 PM
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Originally posted by SonofSpy
There are many passages in the bible referring to Jesus physical characteristics. Dark skinned and having the hair of a lamb. Jesus was a Black Jew.


Yes you are correct, there are more paasages in the bible making reference to a "black" Jesus, or God, that they can not be dis-credited.

If any of you would like links then I will post them for you......



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 09:30 PM
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Acts 11:26 tells us that followers of Christ were first called christians in Antioch.

Earlier in that chapter it says that the apostles and brethren(Jews who followed Jesus?)heard that gentiles were receiving Christ. So I would guess the someone brought up how you could be a jew or a gentile and accept Christ. The majority of jews didn't accept Christ and now gentiles were coming in so they shouldn't be viewed as a gentile anymore and they weren't a jew either . So maybe a group of believers decided to adopt a new name to distinguish themselves and at the same time make very clear who they belonged to, Jesus Christ.



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 09:33 PM
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Attempting to visualize God in the human form is fun but not really the point. Anyway here is the Bible verse.


Revelation 1:14-15

His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 09:38 PM
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Thanks Kinglizard, that is the verse I referred to exactly. And in reply to the earlier poster who offered to post links, please do, I would very much appreciate it. It certainly would not surprise me if he was black, many OT figures are considered most likely to be black, the one that comes to mind off the top of my head is Sarah, Abraham's wife.



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 09:48 PM
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To me the verse (“bronze glowing in a furnace”) suggests he was definitely darker than white but not quite brown.



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 02:40 AM
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Well according to the movie Dogma, Jesus was Black and God was a woman.



I don't know. What I don't get is, Jesus was able to do some really crazy miracles. How come nobody today can do any miracles. Are there no religious people left on this earth that God will allow to do miracles?


You'd figure we'd get at least one solid miracle a year or something.


Anyways, I think this is the ultimate paradox. That Jesus himself, wasn't a Christian. Yet he leads them. And nobody notices or says anything. In reality, Christianity is simply Catholocism all the way around. That's my conclusion so far. And Jesus wasn't Catholic.

[edit on 4-4-2005 by Lord Altmis]



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 03:08 AM
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Originally posted by Lord Altmis
Well according to the movie Dogma, Jesus was Black and God was a woman.



I don't know. What I don't get is, Jesus was able to do some really crazy miracles. How come nobody today can do any miracles. Are there no religious people left on this earth that God will allow to do miracles?


You'd figure we'd get at least one solid miracle a year or something.


Anyways, I think this is the ultimate paradox. That Jesus himself, wasn't a Christian. Yet he leads them. And nobody notices or says anything. In reality, Christianity is simply Catholocism all the way around. That's my conclusion so far. And Jesus wasn't Catholic.

[edit on 4-4-2005 by Lord Altmis]


I have had miracles occur in my life, and a quick search of the net would show you that there are tons of miracles happening every day.
As far as things like walking on water go...... I have been to see David Copperfielf three times, and he pulls off some pretty wicked 'illusions'.




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