US Soldiers Told to 'Beat the (Expletive) Out of' Detainees

The US signed the United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment....The rules....

. Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.

The exscuse....

torture is defined as severe pain or suffering, which means there must be levels of pain and suffering which are not severe enough to be called torture

....Make your own decsion..

We are no where near the level of Iraqi insurgents. Remember, these people record innocent people beg for their lives for days then zoom as a machete saws the neck of the people eventually detaching their head from their bodies. Comparing U.S. soldiers to Iraqi insurgents is offensive.

'These' people, or should you say: 'certain' terrorist cells find creedence in goring foriegners and thier own people for thier own sociopolitical causes. This is a war; America declared 'war' against an innocent country under false premises, puesdo-intel, and exploitation of circumstances alien. This countries people are fighting an illegal occupation of thier country and the illegal ousting of thier leader, regardless of his disposition. There has been 10's of thousands dead under the haste and ignorant hands of the Executive Administration in the White House. Comparing U.S. soldiers to Iraqi soldiers is not offensice; both sides are fighting a war relative to thier stance, and both sides are using the best tactics to combat the enemy: may it be through carpet bombing cities, to beheading enemies, or those affiliated with the enemies. One side has clearly the best military technology advanced research has to offer, while the other has only thier shriveling faith in Allah and whatever they can conjure to hurt the enemy. You can't compare them mechanicaly, but you can realize thier wil is the same.

We don't arrest people on the whim. We arrest former Iraqi soldiers and suspected terrorist. Basic rights? These people aren’t US citizens. Their protection isn’t guaranteed under the guise of the US Constitution.

They do have basic rights, they have basic rights under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights instituted by the United Nations and upheld by even the United States of America. U.S soldiers are not the law in Iraq, nor do they have any legal authority in that country; U.S soldiers are simply utilizing the power of might and opression, nothing more. Coercion brought upon the Iraqies to teach them basic human rights, the path to democracy, and liberties universal to all, has proven itself to be fatal. "Might does not equal right"; Hobbes had a level head when he realized this hundreds of years ago, it's a pity a country like America cannot.

America has Freedom. Iraq now has freedom. The freedom to elect their president and progress the future of their country the way they see fit. Not under an oppressive dictator.

Even in my youth I could smell the melancholy in the air, the dejection of innocence was beset around the world, it's as if Earth was thrown into a previable state of purgatory. It was then when I could sense the cowardess of the worlds leaders, and it as then that I remember a great saying:" Silence and indifference is the greatest sin of them all ." I thought of my own country, Canada, at that very moment, I thought of the Americans who knew this war was wrong but hid under fear of being unpatriotic, I thought of people like me and you who contemplated the beclouded judgements of Bush and Co when conducting the war, and then I realized that only fools beg themselves the better. We're such a foolish people.

If American soldiers were told to "Beat the # out of Detainees" then so be it, however, when an insurgent decides to saw off the head of a U.S. soldier, they should realize that the road goes two ways.

Deep

See the problem is that they have not beheaded any U.S. solider the only ones they torture and behead are civilians. Now if they are going to blow up and behead civilians I think a little abuse and embarrassment is due in return.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
See the problem is that they have not beheaded any U.S. solider the only ones they torture and behead are civilians. Now if they are going to blow up and behead civilians I think a little abuse and embarrassment is due in return.

So you believe in lowering one'self to thier level?
Makeing yourself a terrorist....

What I'd Really Like To Know

Setting aside the usual spirited back and forth on the topic, I'm reasonably convinced that U.S. intelligence agents orchestrated widespread abuse of detainees in Iraq, that it wasn't (and isn't) isolated or unusual, and that it wasn't spontaneous.

The general in charge of Abu Ghraib publicly said as much, as well as several other soldiers in positions of command, and I don't think they were lying.

What I can't quite figure out yet is why the campaign of abuse?

Folks can argue about the moral ramifications and all that, and that's fine. But before I go down that road, I would like to understand just what it is we're actually talking about here.

If it's just some rogue U.S. troops, then let's punish them soundly and make sure other U.S. troops know what to expect if they follow suit.

But if this is a result of a deliberate plan carried out under higher authority, then I would damn well like to know who authorized it and why.

Without knowing that, the rest seems pointless to me.

WP/LA Max,

“Did Al Quida sign the Geneva Conventions? NOPE Do they follow it, NOPE. Hey two side can play that game.

Also what “full rights” are you talking about? They are not U.S. citizens and they don't get the rights of POW’s because they are not POW’s so what “full rights” should they get?”

“Geneva Convention rights are for those countries who signed on and for our enemies who wear a uniform...not for a punk who blows up kids in a Cafe.”

The US signed the Geneva Conventions and are supposed to be bound by it no matter who their adversary is.

As to the “full rights”, I was referring to either that of a POW or of an arrested felon.

What the US has done is attempt to create a 3rd way, that of “person without legal rights”. This is illegal and immoral, but hey so is most of what the Bush Administration does anyway, so why should we be surprised or shocked.

Cheers

BHR

Good question majic...why are they doing it?
One possible scenario is that its part of a "fear" campiegn....I mean something to scare the insurgents into not fighting....not the hardcore ones ofcourse but the general squaddie...

What the US has done is attempt to create a 3rd way, that of “person without legal rights”. This is illegal and immoral, but hey so is most of what the Bush Administration does anyway, so why should we be surprised or shocked.

Well we can follow the rules and follow all of our moral values, while they keep blowing up our cities. But as long as we follow or moral values were the good guy even if our cities are being bombed we can take pride were doing the right thing. If we follow all the rules then we’re not going to win this war. Sometime you have to fight fire with fire.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Well we can follow the rules and follow all of our moral values, while they keep blowing up our cities. But as long as we follow or moral values were the good guy even if our cities are being bombed we can take pride were doing the right thing.

That is correct....you also win the hearts and minds of the people.

If we follow all the rules then we’re not going to win this war. Sometime you have to fight fire with fire.

Wrong, you can win a war by doing this...it will just be longer..
Yes sometimes you do but only in extreme cases when refering to war and the treatment of people.
Do you think torture is right, we are talking regardless of occupation, race, gender or state of the subject?

WP,

This is a war of ideas and as such that is what will win it.

You will not this war by killing lots of people or invading lots of countries.

As DW this is a hearts and minds contest.

At the moment the US is losing.

It is losing not because the other side is smarter but because for now the US is dumber. That is not meant an sarcastic insult. What I am saying is that at the moment the US is driving so called moderates into the hands of the extremists.

Cheers

BHR