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Bush's Next War - North Korea: A War Scenario

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posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 10:28 PM
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1. North Korea Can Engage the US in Total War
North Korea is one of the few nations that can engage in a total war with the United States. The US war planners recognize this fact. For example, on March 7, 2000, Gen. Thomas A Schwartz, the US commander in Korea at the time, testified at a US congressional hearing that "North Korea is the country most likely to involve the United States in a large-scale war."

North Korea, which can and is willing to face up to the sole military superpower of the world, cannot be called a weak nation. Nevertheless, Western press and analysts distort the truth and depict North Korea as an "impoverished" nation, starving and on the brink of imminent collapse. An impoverished, starving nation cannot face down a military superpower. Today few nations have military assets strong enough to challenge the US military. Russia, though weakened by the collapse of the Soviet Union, has enough assets to face up to the US. China, somewhat weaker than Russia, too, has strong military that can challenge the US. However, both Russia and China lack the political will to face down the US.

In contrast, North Korea has not only the military power but also the political will to wage total war against the United States. North Korea has made it clear that it will strike all US targets with all means, if the US mounted military attacks on North Korea. That North Korea's threat is no bluff can be seen from the aggressive actions taken by North Korea since the Korean War armistice, most recent of which is North Korea's attempt to capture an American spy plane. In the morning of March 1, 2003, an American RC-132S spy plane, Cobra Ball, took off from a US airbase in Okinawa, and cruised along the East coast of North Korea collecting electronic signals. The US intelligence suspected that North Korea was about to test a long-range missile and the plane was there to monitor the suspected missile launch.

When the US plane reached a point about 193 km from the coast of North Korea, two MiG-29 and two MiG-21 fighter planes showed up unexpectedly. The North Korean planes approached within 16 m and signaled the US plane to follow them. The US pilot refused to follow the command and left the scene posthaste. The US plane was tailed by the hostiles for about 22 min but let the US spy plane go. There are two key points to be observed here.

First, the hostile planes waited for the US plane at the Uhrang airbase, located about 200 km from the point of air encounter. They knew that the US plane was coming. The North Korean planes flew 200 km to intercept the US plane. Did the US plane see them coming? If it did, why no evasive action? After intercepting the US plane, the hostile planes dogged it for 22 min. Why no American planes for the rescue? The US crew must have informed the base of the danger they were in, but no action was taken by the base. If Kim Jong Il had given the command, the MiGs would have shot down the US plane and returned to their base before the US could have scrambled war planes.

Second, North Korea intercepted an American spy plane flying 200 km from its coast. According to the international norm, a nation's territorial air space extends 19 km from its coast line. The US is the exception and claims air space of 370 km from its coast line; any foreign airplane violating this extended air space is challenged or shot down by the US military.

2. North Korea's Massive Retaliation Strategy
North Korea's war plan in case of an US attack is total war, not the 'low-intensity limited warfare' or 'regional conflict' talked about among the Western analysts. North Korea will mount a total war if attacked by the US. There are three aspects to this war plan.

First, total war is North Korea's avowed strategy in case of US preemptive attacks. The US war on Iraq shows that the US can and will mount preemptive strikes in clear violation of international laws, and the United Nations is powerless to stop the US. Any nation that is weak militarily may be attacked by the US at will. It is reasonable for North Korea to deter US attacks with threats of total war.

Second, North Korea expects no help from China, Russia, or other nations in case of war with the US. It knows that it will be fighting the superpower alone. Nominally, China and Russia are North Korea's allies but neither ally is expected to provide any assistance to North Korea in case of war. Neither nation can or is willing to protect North Korea from attacks by the US, and North Korea alone can and will protect itself from US attacks. This principle of self-defense applies to all nations.

Third, North Korea's total war plan has two components: massive conventional warfare and weapons of mass destruction. If the US mounts a preemptive strike on North Korea's Yongbyon nuclear plants, North Korea will retaliate with weapons of mass destruction: North Korea will mount strategic nuclear attacks on the US targets. The US war planners know this and have drawn up their own nuclear war plan. In a nuclear exchange, there is no front or rear areas, no defensive positions or attack formations as in conventional warfare. Nuclear weapons are offensive weapons and there is no defense against nuclear attacks except retaliatory nuclear attacks. For this reason, North Korea's war plan is offensive in nature: North Korea's war plan goes beyond repulsing US attackers and calls for destruction of the United States.

The US war plan '5027' calls for military occupation of North Korea; it goes beyond the elimination of North Korea's weapons of mass destruction. The US military regards North Korea its main enemy and likewise North Korea regards the US its main enemy. South Korea, too, regards North Korea its main enemy but North Korea does not regard South Korea its main enemy because South Korea is a client state of the United States and has no ability or power to act independent of the US. North Korea's war plan is not for invading South Korea but for destroying the US.

3. North Korea's Military Capability
All nations keep their military capability secret. North Korea is no exception and it is not easy to assess North Korea's military power. The US claims that it knows North Korea's military secrets. The United States collects intelligence on North Korea using a variety of means: American U-2, RC-135, EP-3 and other high-altitude spy planes watch over North Korea 24 hours 7 days a week. The US 5th Air Reconnaissance Squadron has U-2R, U-2S, and other advanced spy planes at the Ohsan airbase in South Korea. In addition, the US has 70 KH-11 spy satellites hovering over North Korea.

In spite of such a massive deployment of intelligence collection assets, the US intelligence on North Korea is faulty at best. Donald Gregg, a former US ambassador to Seoul and a 30-year CIA veteran, has admitted that the US intelligence on North Korea has been the longest lasting story of failure in the annals of US intelligence. Gregg said that even the best spy gadget in the US arsenal cannot read what's on Kim Jong Il's mind. US Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld said that North Korea uses underground optical fibers for military communication and that it is nearly impossible to plant human agents in North Korea.

Although North Korea's military secrets are impervious to US spy operations, one can draw some general pictures from information available in the public domain.

a) North Korea makes its own weapons

North Korea has annual production capacity for 200,000 AK automatic guns, 3,000 heavy guns, 200 battle tanks, 400 armored cars and amphibious crafts. North Korea makes its own submarines, landing drafts, high-speed missile-boats, and other types of warships. Home-made weaponry makes it possible for North Korea to maintain a large military force on a shoestring budget. North Korea defense industry is made of three groups: weapon production, production of military supplies, and military-civilian dual-use product manufacturing.

North Korea has 17 plants for guns and artillery, 35 plants for ammunition, 5 plants for tanks and armored cars, 8 plants for airplanes, 5 plants for warships, 3 plants for guided missiles, 5 plants for communication equipment, and 8 plants for biochemical warheads - 134 plants in total. In addition, many plants that make consumer products are designed so that they can be made to produce military items with minimum modification. About 180 of defense related plants are built underground in the rugged mountainous areas of Jagang-do. Several small to medium hydro-power plants serve these plants so that it would be nearly impossible for the US to cut off power to the plants.

b) North Korea has its own war plans

North Korea is mountainous and its coasts are long and jagged. The Korean peninsula is narrow on its waste. North Korea's weapons and war tactics are germane to Korea's unique geography. North Korea has developed its own war plans unique to fighting the US in a unique way. North Korea's military is organized into several independent, totally integrated and self-sufficient fighting units, that are ready for action at any time.

c) North Korean soldiers are well indoctrinated

The US commanders admit that North Korean soldiers are highly motivated and loyal to Kim Jong Il, and that they will fight well in case of war. Karl von Clausewitz said that people's support for war, military commanders' ability and power, and the political leadership are the three essentials for winning war. He failed to include the political indoctrination of the soldiers, which is perhaps more important than the other factors cited.

During the Iraq War just ended, the main cause of Iraq's defeat was the low moral of its soldiers. Iraqi soldiers had no will to stand and fight, and they ran away or surrendered without fight. Iraqi soldiers believed in Allah protecting them and became easy preys to the US military. North Korean soldiers are taught to fight to the bitter end. In September 1996, a North Korean submarine got stranded at Kangrung, South Korea, and its crew abandoned the ship. Eleven of the crew committed suicide and the rest fought to the last man except one who was captured. In June 1998, another submarine got caught in fishing nets at Sokcho and its crew killed themselves. Such is the fighting spirit of North Korean soldiers.

d) North Koreans are combat ready

One cannot fight war without military preparedness. North Korea's regular army is for offensive actions whereas its militias are homeland defense. North Korea's regular army consists of 4 corps in the front area, 8 corps in the rear area, one tank corps, 5 armored corps, 2 artillery corps, and 1 corps for the defense of Pyongyang, South Korea has 19 infantry divisions whereas North Korea has 80 divisions and brigades.

A North Korean infantry division has 3 infantry regiments, 1 artillery regiment (3 battalions of 122 mm rocket launchers and 1 battalion of 152 mortars), one tank battalion of 31 tanks, one anti-tank battalion, one anti-aircraft battalion, one engineer battalion, one communication battalion, one light-infantry battalion, one recon battalion, and one chemical warfare battalion.

North Korea's militias consist of 1.6 million self-defense units, 100,000 people's guards, 3.9 million workers militia, 900,000 youth guard units. These militias are tasked to defend the homeland. The militias are fully armed and undergo military trainings regularly.

i) Artillery

North Korea has 2 artillery corps and 30 artillery brigades equipped with 120mm self-propelled guns, 152mm self-propelled mortars, 170mm guns with a range of 50 km, 240 mm multiple rocket launchers with a range of 45 km, and other heavy guns. North Korea has about 18,000 heavy guns. North Korea's 170mm Goksan gun and 240mm multiple-tube rocket launchers are the most powerful guns of the world. These guns can lob shells as far south as Suwon miles beyond Seoul. The big guns are hidden in caves. Many of them are mounted on rails and can fire in all directions. They can rain 500,000 conventional and biochemical shells per hour on US troops near the DMZ. The US army bases at Yijong-bu, Paju, Yon-chun, Munsan, Ding-gu-chun, and Pochun will be obliterated in a matter of hours.

The US army in Korea is equipped with Paladin anti-artillery guns that can trace enemy shells back to the guns and fire shells at the enemy guns with pin-point accuracy. However, it takes for the Paladins about 10 min to locate the enemy guns, during which time the Paladins would be targeted by the enemy guns Gen. Thomas A Schwartz, a former US army commander in Korea, stated that the US army in Korea would be destroyed in less than three hours.

ii). Blitz Klieg

North Korea has tanks, armored cars, and self-propelled artillery for blitz klieg. North Korea has one tank corps and 15 tank brigades. The tank corps has 5 tank regiments, each of which has 4 heavy tank battalions, 1 light-tank battalion, one mechanized infantry battalion, 2 self-propelled artillery battalions.

US tanks are designed to operate in open fields. In 1941, Rommel of Germany defeated British troops in North Africa with tanks. The largest tank battle was fought at Kursk in 1943, in which the Soviets defeated Germans. In 1973, Egypt defeated Israeli tanks with anti-tank missiles. All of these tank battles were fought in open fields. The Gulf War and the recent war in Iraq saw US tanks in open fields. American and Western tank commanders do not know how to fight tank battles in rugged terrains like those of Korea. Tank battles in Korea will be fought on hilly terrains without any close air cover, because North Korean fighters will engage US planes in close dog fights.

North Korea has developed tanks ideally suited for the many rivers and mountains of Korea. These tanks are called "Chun-ma-ho", which can navigate steep slopes and cross rivers as much as 5.5 m deep. North Korea's main battle tanks - T-62s - have 155 mm guns and can travel as fast as 60 km per hour. The US main tanks - M1A - have 120 mm guns and cannot travel faster than 55 km per hour. North Korean tanks have skins 700 mm thick and TOW-II is the only anti-tank missile in the US arsenal that can penetrate this armored skin.

North Korea began to make anti-tank missiles in 1975 and has been improving its anti-tank missiles for the past 30 years. North Korea's anti-tank missiles are rated the best in the world and several foreign nations buy them. The US army in Korea relies on 72 AH-64 Apache attack helicopters to kill North Korean tanks. Each Apache has 16 Hell-Fire anti-tank missiles. As shown in the recent Iraq war, Apaches are fragile and can be easily shot down even with rifles. North Korea has about 15,000 shoulder-fired anti-air missiles ("wha-sung") and Apaches will be easy targets for wha-sung missiles. On December 17, 1994, a wha-sung missile brought down an American OH-58C spy helicopter which strayed north of the DMZ.

North Korea has 4 mechanized corps and 24 mechanized brigades. Each brigade has 1 tank battalion (31 tanks), 1 armored battalion (46 armored cars), 4 infantry battalions, one 122mm battalion (18 guns), one 152 mm battalion (18 guns), one anti-aircraft battalion (18 guns), anti-tank battalion (9 armored cars with anti-tank missiles and 12 anti-tank guns), one armored recon company (3 light armored cars, 7 armored cars, and 8 motor-cycles), one mortar company (6 mortars), one engineer company, one chemical company, and one communication company. The US army has A-10 attack planes to counter North Korea's mechanized units. In case of war, the skies over Korea will be filled with fighters in close dog-fights and the A-10s would be ineffective.

The bulk of North Korea's mechanized and tank units are positioned to cross the DMZ at a moment's notice and run over the US and South Korean defenders. The attackers will be aided by SU-25 attack planes and attack helicopters. In addition, North Korea has 600 high-speed landing crafts, 140 hovercrafts, and 3,000 K-60 and other pontoon bridges for river-crossing. North Korea has 700,000 troops, 8,000 heavy guns, and 2,000 tanks placed in more than 4,000 hardened bunkers within 150 km of the DMZ.

iii. Underground Tunnel Warfare

North Korea is the world most-tunneled nation. North Korea's expertise in digging tunnels for warfare was demonstrated during the Vietnam War. North Korea sent about 100 tunnel warfare experts to Vietnam to help dig the 250 km tunnels for the North Vietnamese and Viet Gong troops in South Vietnam. The tunnels were instrumental in the Vietnamese victory.

North Korea's army runs on company-size units. Tunnel warfare is conducted by independent company-size units. Tunnel entrances are built to withstand US chemical and biological attacks. Tunnels run zig-zag and have seals, air-purification units, and safe places for the troops to rest. It is believed that North Korea has built about 20 large tunnels near the DMZ. A large tunnel can transport 15,000 troops per hour across the DMZ and place them behind the US troops.

iv. Special Forces

North Korea has the largest special forces, 120,000 troops, in the world. These troops are grouped into light infantry brigades, attack brigades, air-borne brigades, and sea-born brigades - 25 brigades in total. These troops will be tasked to attack US military installations in Korea, Japan, Okinawa and Guam.

North Korea has the capacity to transport 20,000 special force troops at the same time. North Korea has 130 high-speed landing crafts and 140 hovercrafts. A North Korean hovercraft can carry one platoon of troops at 90 km per hour. Western experts pooh-pooh North Korea's ancient AN-2 transport planes as 1948 relics, but AN-2 planes can fly low beneath US radars and deliver up to 10 troops at 160 km per hour. North Korea makes AN-2s and has about 300 in place. In addition, North Korea has hang-gliders that can carry 5-20 men each for short hops.

North Korea has developed special bikes for mountain warfare. Special forces use these bikes for fast deployments on mountains. Switzerland is the only other nation that has bike-mounted special forces trained for mountain warfare. The rugged terrains of the Korean Peninsula are ideally suited for special forces operations. North Korea's special forces will attack US targets in Japan, Okinawa, and Guam as well. Japan's self defense units are being reorganized to counter this threat.

How good are North Korea's special forces? In September 1996, a North Korean submarine was stranded near Kang-nung and the crew were forced to abandon the ship and land on South Korea. The sub had two special forces agents who had finished a mission in South Korea and were picked up by the sub before the sub ran into a rock. The two men fought off an army of South Korean troops and remained at large for 50 days, during which they killed 11 of the pursuers.

4. Weapons of Mass Destruction
a. Missile Readiness
North Korea is a nuclear state along with the US, Russia, China, the Great Britain, France, India, Pakistan, and Israel. North Korea has succeeded in weaponizing nuclear devices for missile delivery. North Korea has operational fleets of ICBM and intermediate-range missiles equipped with nuclear warheads. I have written on this subject previously and will not replicate the details here.

It was May of 1994, nine years ago, when the US military planners had first realized that North Korea had the bomb and devised nuclear attack plans under William Perry, the then US Secretary of Defense. Perry had estimated that North Korea would have about 100 nuclear warheads by 2000. Dr. Kim Myong Chul, an expert on Kim Jong Il's war plans, has recently confirmed that North Korea has more than 100 nukes including hydrogen bombs.

North Korea can produce about 100 missiles a year. It began to make missiles in 1980 and has about 1,000 missiles of various types in place, about 100 of which have nuclear warheads. These missiles are hidden in caves and underground launching pads. At present, the US has no fool-proof defense against North Korean missiles, and in case of war, North Korean missiles can do serious damages: several hundreds of thousands of US troops will die, and scores of US bases and carrier battle groups will be destroyed. The Patriot anti-missile missiles are deployed in South Korea but as shown in the recent Iraq war, the Patriots are not 100% accurate or reliable even under ideal conditions.

b. Biochemical Warfare

North Korea has a large stockpile of biochemical weapons. Each Army corps has a chemical company and each regiment has a chemical platoon. In the May 1994 nuclear crisis, Perry warned North Korea that the US would retaliate with nuclear weapons if North Korea used chemical weapons on US troops.

North Korean troops and citizens are well-prepared for bio-chemical attacks.

5. North Korea's Defense Against US Attacks
a. Fortification

North Korea began to build fortifications in 1960s. All key military facilities are built underground to withstand American bunker-buster bombs. North Korea has 8,236 underground facilities that are linked by 547 km of tunnels. Beneath Pyongyang are a huge underground stadium and other facilities. About 1.2 million tons of food, 1.46 million tons of fuel, and 1.67 million tons of ammunition are stored in underground storage areas for wartime use.

Most of the underground facilities are drilled into granite rocks and the entrances face north in order to avoid direct hits by American bombs and missiles. The B-61 Mod 11 is the main bunker buster in the US arsenal. A recent test showed that this buster could penetrate only 6 meters of rock. The latest GBU-28 laser-guided bunker-buster can penetrate to 30m. North Korean bunkers have at least 80 m of top-cover of solid rocks. North Korea has many false caves that emit heats that will misdirect unwary GBU-28/37 and BKU-113 bunker-busters.

The US military targets enemy command and control centers based on the doctrine of chopping off "the head of the snake." With the top commanders eliminated, the rank and file would be demoralized, leaderless and would surrender. North Korea's extensive underground fortification makes this strategy unworkable. In addition, the underground facilities make US spy planes and satellites impotent.

b. Air Defense

North Korea has a large number of ground-to-air missiles. It has SA-2 and SA-3 missiles against low-flying enemy planes, and SA-5 missiles for high-altitude planes. SA-5 missiles have an effective range of 250 km. SA-5 missiles can hit enemy planes flying over the middle of South Korea.

North Korea has reengineered US shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles captured in Vietnam, and designed its own missile, wha-sung. North Korea began to manufacture wha-sung missiles in 1980. Wha-sung comes in two models: SA-7 that has an effective range of 5 km and SA-16 with 10 km range. North Korea has more than 15,000 wha-sung missiles in place.

In addition to the missiles, North Korea has 12,000 anti-aircraft guns, including 37mm twin-barrel guns, 23 mm automatics, 57mm, 87mm, and 100mm heavy guns. These are mostly manually operated and thus not subject to electronic warfare.

c. Coastal deferens.

North Korea's coastlines are long and jagged. Coastal guns are placed in fortified tunnels along the coastline. North Korea has six ground-to-ship missile bases. North Korea has anti-ship missiles of 95km range, and of 160km range. The latter are for hitting US carrier battle groups over the horizon. North Korean anti-ship missiles can hit ships anchored at Inchon on the west and Sokcho on the east.

America's main defense against anti-ship missiles, the Arleigh Burke class Aegis destroyers are ineffective outside 20-50 km from missile launch pads.

d. Sea Battles

North Korea has two fleets - the West Fleet and the East Fleet. The West Fleet has 6 squadrons of 320 ships and the East Fleet has 10 squadron of 460 ships. The navy has a total manpower of 46,000. North Korean ships are sheltered from US attacks in about 20 bunkers of 200-900 m longs and 14-22 m wide. North Korean ships are small and agile, designed for coastal defense. North Korean ships carry 46km range ship-to-ship missiles and 22-channel multiple rocket launchers.

The main enemy of the North Korean navy will be US carrier task forces. The Russian navy has developed a tactic to deal with US carriers task forces: massive simultaneous missile attacks. In addition, Russia has developed the anti-carrier missile, "jun-gal", that can destroy a carrier. China has developed similar tactics for destroying US carriers. On April 1, 2003, North Korea test-fired a high-speed ground-to-ship missile of 60km range. A US carrier task force of Nimitz class has 6,000 men, 70 planes, and a price tag of 4.5 billion dollars. Destroying even a single career task force will be traumatic.

A carrier is protected by a shield of 6 Aegis destroyers and nuclear attack submarines. An Aegis destroyer has an AN/SPY-1 high-capacity radar system that can track more than 100 targets at the same time. An Aegis can fire about 20 anti-missile missiles at the same time. Thus, a career force can track a total of 600 targets at a time and fire 120 anti-missile missiles at the same time. The anti-missile missiles have about 50% success under ideal conditions. In actual battle situations, the hit rate will be much lower and the best estimate is that the Aegis shield can intercept at most 55 incoming missiles. Therefore, a volley of about 60 missiles and rockets will penetrate the Aegis shield and hit the career.

North Korea acquired OSA and KOMAR high-speed missile boats in 1968, and began to build its own missile boats in 1981. It has more than 50 missile boats, each equipped with 4 missiles of 46km range and multiple rocket launchers. In addition, North Korea has about 300 speed boats, 200 torpedo boats and 170 other gunboats. In case of war, North Korea's small crafts and submarines will swarm around US career task forces and destroy them.

North Korea has 35 submarines and 65 submersibles. These crafts are equipped with torpedoes and will be used to attack US careers. They will also lay mines and block enemy harbors. North Korea has a large supply of mines. North Korean submarines are small but they are equipped with 8km rocket launchers and 70km anti-ship missiles, and they could do some serious damage to US careers..

e. Air Combats

North Korea has three air commands. Each command has a fighter regiment, a bomber regiment, an AN-2 regiment, an attack helicopter regiment, a missile regiment, and a radar regiment. Each command can operate independently. North Korea has 70 airbases, which are fortified against US attacks. Underground hangars protect the planes and have multiple exits for the planes to take off on different runways. North Korea has several fake airfields and fake planes to confuse US attackers.

It is said that North Korea's planes are obsolete and no match for US planes. North Korea has 770 fighters, 80 bombers, 700 transports, 290 helicopters, and 84,000 men. In case of war, North Korean planes will fly low hugging the rugged terrains and attack enemy targets. US planes are parked above ground at bases in Korea, Japan, Okinawa and Guam, and make easy targets for missile, rocket and air attacks. When war breaks out, North Korean missiles, rockets and heavy guns will destroy the 8 US airbases in South Korea, and any plane in the air would have no place to land.

North Korea's fighter planes are ill-equipped for air-to-air combats at long distances. but they can hold their own in close-quarter air combats. MiG-21 fighters from Bongchun and US F-15 from Ohsan would meet in less than 5 min, assuming they took off at about the same time. In about 5 min, hundreds of MiG21s and F-15s would be swirling in the skies over Korea. Ground-to-air missiles and air-to-air missiles would have hard time telling friends from foes. F-15Es are equipped with a radar system that lock on at 180 km for large objects and 90 km for small objects. Sidewinder missiles have an effective range of 16km, AMRAAM missiles of 50km, and Sparrow of 55km.

Korea is 100 km wide and 125 km long, and so US air-to-air missiles would be of limited use and effectiveness, because North Korean MiGs would approach the US planes in close proximity and commingle with US planes, and air-to-air missiles will become useless and machines guns will have to be used. MiG19s have 30mm guns, MiG21s have 23mm guns, and F-14s have 20mm Valkans. North Korean pilots are trained to hug the enemy planes so that air-to-air missiles cannot be used. In contrast, US pilots are trained to lock on the enemy at long distance with radar and fire missiles. US planes are heavily armed with electronics and less agile than the light, lean MiGs that can climb and turn faster than the US planes.

F-14s are about 3.3 times heavier than MiG21s, and F-150Es are about 3.6 times heavier. MiG21s are 16.6 m long whereas F-14s are 19.1 m and F-15Es 19.43 m long. MiG21s cab climb to 18km, whereas F-1A can climb to 15.8 km and F-16 to 15.2 km. MiGs get upper hands in close-range dogfights in which agility matters. In Vietnam, US planes were forced to jettison auxiliary gas tanks and bombs in order to engage MiGs. F-150 E planes will carry BLU-113 bunker busters that weigh 2,250 kg each in the next war in Korea. Loaded with such a heavy bomb, F-15s will become easy targets for North Korea's MiGs. US fighter-bombers will be protected by F-15C fighter escorts.

MiG21s are North Korea's main workhorse. The MiG21 debuted in 1965 in Vietnam and proved itself as an effective attack fighter. In 1999, North Korea bought 40 MiG21s from Kazakhstan. During the Vietnam War, MiG17s shot down dozens of American planes. North Korea sent more than 200 pilots to fight in the Vietnam War. They were tasked to defend Hanoi and shot down scores of US planes. North Korea sent 25 pilots to Syria during the 3rd Arab-Israeli war of 1966, and 30 pilots to Egypt and Syria during the 4th Arab-Israeli war of 1973. In 1976, North Korea sent more than 40 pilots to Syria.

f. Electronic Warfare

The United States excels in electronic warfare and no nation comes anywhere near the US capability. North Korea began developing its own electronic warfare methods in 1970. It is believed that North Korea has advanced electronic warfare ability. It has numerous counter measures for US electronic warfare. During the recent war in Iraq, the US dropped e-bombs that disabled the Iraqi electronic devices. North Korea relies heavily on non-electronic command and control means, and hence US e-bombs will have limited impacts in North Korea.

North Korea trains about 100 hackers a year and has computer virus battalions in place. These hackers are capable of interrupting US communication networks. In a war game conducted in 1991 by US war planners, North Korea came out the victor with and without nuclear weapons. Kim Jong Il has no doubt that his army can beat the US army.

www.kimsoft.com...




posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 11:04 PM
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Please read what is posted above before making any statements.



posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 11:12 PM
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Originally posted by LiquidationOfDiscrepancy
The unholy alliance of South Korean troops and Korea's archenemy - Japanese - reminds one of the last Chosen king who had invited Japanese troops to put down the Tonghak rebels. ...(snip)... Will the history repeat itself? (snip) Will he order his troops to fight the Japanese 'ally'?


In a word, no. If such an eventuality were to come up (which I doubt) the South Koreans would make it clear BEFORE Japan came in and America would agree to bear the burden without Japanese assisstance. (and of course the Australians likely wouldn't be far behind us).


Kim Jong Il will strike first at the first sure sign of invasion. His army and people have been waiting for the moment for over half a century and will be much pleased to kill some Japanese and Yanks. Kim has over one million soldiers, more than 8,000 heavy guns that fire 300,000 shells loaded with biochemicals per hour, and missiles that can hit Japan and Los Angeles, Seattle, and other major American cities.


1. If Korea uses chemicals the war is over quick and easy- we will neutralize his remaining stockpiles with nuclear weapons and nobody will have any legitimate claim, much less the audacity, to oppose us. In all honesty, what do we care if we take a few minor casualties from chemicals (our men have MOPP gear and will for the most part be OK) in exchange for gaining the right to nuke Crazy Kim?

2. North Korea has 20 Taepo-Dong missiles, 15 of the type 1, and 5 of the type 2. They are basically improved SCUD-Cs with a third stage. Experience has shown that Scuds are 1. Easy prey for missile defense systems. 2. Very poorly guided, even at very short ranges. Furthermore, the maximum range of these weapons is 6,000km- not even enough to reach Hawaii. The key to the Korean nuclear program is to gain the ability to launch a satellite or SLV to deliver their nukes into orbit so that they can be brought back down over America. That's how an ICBM works. So far North Korea lacks this ability and all attempts on their part have been dismal failures, despite their lie regarding the success of the Taepo-Dong 2 that they fired over Japan in 1998. Because SCUDS are such low grade missiles, North Korea is likely to encounter difficulties ever successful launching an SLV with them.
www.globalsecurity.org...

North Korea's deterrence operates solely against South Korea and Japan and simply is not practical to use because once used it ensures their destruction. Use of their deterrent only makes sense once their destruction has already been assured, ie: they are losing a war. Therefore it is not difficult to expect that America will have sufficient time to move Aegis destroyers, PAC-3s, and any other missile defense capabilities we have to Japan and South Korea to ensure that Korea's few nukes do not get through. Although Japan won't be happy with it, this will fall under the catagory of "acceptible losses" as far as America is concerned.



It is believed that North Korean missiles hidden in caves are already loaded with WMD warheads and ready to go.


Although North Korea's significant advantage in cave technology is highly alarming, I do not believe it will be decisive. You can't fire a missile from a cave, you need a silo. Silos are dependent on the inaccuracy of weapons though (haven't you always wondered why people talk about the accuracy of missles that deliver nukes?)- a direct hit on the top of a silo by a weapon designed for penetration and armed with a nuclear warhead, especially if several weapons were targeted in succession, would destroy the silo. It is exceptionally unlikely, in fact almost negligible, that Korea could bring enough WMD to bear on its adversaries to win a war, given its present arsenal.


North Korea has more than 5,000 tons of biochemical agents, including sarin, anthrax, smallpox and the plague.

A serious problem to be sure, if only they could hit anyone. Everyone except for Japan can thank God that North Korea is too isolated to target these weapons on areas where it can spread throughout the world population. North Korea can dang near end life in Japan with its biological/chemical weapons, but only if they can get those weapons fired before our nuclear submarines destroy them. If we pushed North Korea and expected them to use their deterrent, it would take less than an hour for our subs to wipe out Korea's deterrent, the missiles would be in the air for about 15 minutes, and Korea might see them for 10 minutes. In 10 minutes you won't have a country anymore, retaliate all you can- go. BUZZER Oops, I'm sorry, you don't exist anymore and you didn't kill ANYONE! Ok boys call the janitor to clean up these ashes.


North Korea's nuclear program dates back to 1950 and it would be naive to believe that North Korea has managed to produce only 1-2 or 7-8 bombs during half a century. The truth of the matter is that North Korea may have helped Pakistan and Iran with nuclear weaponry. A Pakistani nuclear scientist has admitted that North Korea's nuclear program is far more advanced than the Pak program

North Korea gave Pakistan long range missiles to deliver its nukes, not the nukes themselves. In 1994 the Koreans got centerfuges for Uranium enrichment from the Pakistanis. That means the North Korean nuclear program was basically just doing math for the previous 40 years and only started building the facilities crucial to manufacturing weapons for the last 10 years. Construction takes a lot of time, especially on power plants, and producing fissile material takes time as well. North Korea could have more nukes that the CIA says, but even if they had 5 times as many nukes as they are said to, they would not be a credible threat because under a realistic scenario for North Korea having to use its deterrent they won't have enough to get through the defenses that America emplaces in the most likely target areas.
www.globalsecurity.org...


The most potent weapon North Korea has is its special forces that number over 100,000 - the largest in the world. These troops are trained for suicide missions. North Korea has about 100 submarines, several hundreds transport planes, semi-submersible high-speed boats and other means of transportation that can inject its special forces into Japanese cities and the coastal cities of America.

Wrong. Thanks for playing though. Korea can not move sufficient forces to Japan (much less America) for an invasion. Suppose they did sneak 100,000 men into America or Japan- what next? They've got no armor, no artillery, no air support. They will be cut to pieces. In America they would be cut to pieces by civilians in fact- lucky for North Korea that the Japanese aren't an armed population.
North Korea has 26 submarines, not 100. 22 Romeo-class diesels and 4 Whiskey-class diesels. They'd never even see a Los Angeles class SSN coming until our boys flooded their torpedo tubes.
On top of that they have 71 small semi-submersibles: 26 Sang-Os and 45 SSIs. Most of these don't even have torpedo tubes. They are for troop infiltration and mine laying.
They've also got 3 frigates and 6 corvettes.
None of their combatants are capable of sustained operations at sea because North Korea has fewer than 10 support craft which would not survive very long. This means that the Korean Navy will be predictably presenting itself for destruction in port every so often- we wouldn't even have to fight them at sea.
The brunt of the North Korean navy is small missile and torpedo boats. They might be able to defend the upper 1/4 of the Yellow Sea, preventing an immediate amphibious landing outside of Pyongyang- that's about it.
www.globalsecurity.org...


At the start of war, Kim Jong Il is most likely to fire all of his WMD missiles on Japan and the US homeland.

Wrong. He'd get nuked and he knows it. He needs those to force a peace deal if he can't bog us down in a conventional war. Also, North Korea has a grand total of 130 missiles that can reach all of Japan. About 100 of them are No Dong 1 or 2 which can reach no further than Japan.


US naval task forces and submarines will be hit with anti-ship cruise missiles and nuclear-chemical Scuds.

Actually they will laugh hysterically as the Scuds miss or are shot down, then they will use the NBC protection systems which our ships are equipped with as they happily move away from any areas which have been gassed. It also should be remembered that our Navy operates outside the 300-500km range of North Korea's 550 SCUD B and Cs.


His artillery would open up on military targets along the DMZ and the rear-area troop concentrations.

With a range of under 20 kilometers, no sophisticated targeting ability, and a failure to advance into South Korea, this would fail miserably. (the invasion is necessary because troops must call for and adjust artillery fires.) More modern US and South Korean forces could respond from far more effectively with Airpower MLRS strikes, armored infiltration missions, etc and anhilate North Korea's artillery forces with ease.


Contrary to the US claim, Kim is unlikely to hit Seoul except the US 8th Army base at Yongsan. Likewise, his army is unlikely to invade South Korea - instead, they would stay put in their well-fortified bunkers to defend the homeland against the invading armies.

This is undeniably true because most North Korean units must raise their own cabbage and hogs to feed themselves and would be starving after their first week or so on the move. Furthermore North Korea is 100% dependent on fuel imports, and American airpower is perfectly capable of destroying their reserves and cutting off highways, bridges, and pipelines which are vital to North Korean fuel supplies.
Within 2-4 weeks of the outbreak of hostilities in the Korean peninsula, North Korea would probably have to surrender unless China was willing to take an active role in order to ensure the delivery of food and fuel to North Korean units. Without the involvement of Chinese and or Russian airpower, air defenses, and logistics, a war for North Korea would be over almost before it started.


Kim's forces will hunker down for a long war of attrition.

The defender does not dictate the terms of the war. They will hunker down for a long war of attrition and will be the victim of a rapid manuever campaign which exploits crucial logistical weaknesses and destroys their ability to resist.


His army is well equipped with anti-aircraft and anti-tank missiles. North Korea has a large number of anti-ship cruise missiles. At least 30% - if not more - of Kim's dug-in military is likely to survive US nuclear attacks and be alive to repel the invading forces.

Everyone we go up against claims to have the most amazing anti-aircraft capabilities, but it always ends up being nothing but hype. By the time our SF and precision air strikes are done destroying their lines of communication, each station will be operating in isolation, unable to detect incoming targets until they are under attack. And what will the Koreans throw at us? The vaunted S-300, which Intelgurl has exposed as a weak knockoff of early Patriots, and of course plenty of ZSU 23mm anti aircraft cannon? If you have any weakness at all, it will be exploited and your defensive network will fall apart- this is why those who play defense usually lose. The only way to prevent the unraveling of their defenses is to go on the attack, but North Korea lacks that ability. Their anti-ship missiles won't be able to get more than 120km range for the most part and will not be able to overcome Phalanx or Aegis. To the best of my knowledge Korea has not acquired any SS-N-22s, and even if they did they do not control any commanding position which will allow optimum use of such weapons- their anti-ship missiles are a paper tiger and will likely fail to claim a single American surface combatant.
Their dug in troops will find themselves cut off and surrounded with their supply interrupted. They will have to choose between surrender or slow death.


North Korea has over 2 million well-armed militia tasked to defend their towns and villages in support of the regular armed forces.

The militia will lack the transportation and resupply to be a threat. They will mostly be bypassed during the initial campaign and will quickly surrender as their nation crumbles around them. If they do not they will never even get within firing range of American troops, who will rain artillery and tank fire on their positions from kilometers away.


After Kim's initial missile and artillery attacks, several thousand suicide squads would spring into action at the same time and attack targets in Japan and in the United States. Kim's air force and navy will be tasked to transport the kamikaze squads to their destinations.

No they won't. They'll infiltrate South Korea by an extensive network of tunnels and take a heavy toll on South Korean and American command and control. The problem with suicide attacks is that you don't get an encore. America and company will rebound and proceed with their anhilation of North Korea.


It is possible that many of them are already in place. The suicide squads are trained to attack nuclear facilities, dams, chemical plants and storage tanks, oil depots, power stations, gas pipelines, bridges, tunnels and so on. Their mission is to cause as many casualties among the civilian populace. A dozen or so suicide terrorists were responsible for the 9.11 that killed 3,000 or so people - now imagine 100,000 suicide terrorists attacking several thousand targets at the same time!


I think 100,000 Koreans entering America and hanging out around vital infrastructure would be noticed. Korea will not be projecting any significant force outside of Korea. Furthermore their attacks will be irrelevant for the most part. Suppose they kill 10 million American civilians and tank our economy (which they can't even come close to doing). Congratulations, you just created a pissed off nuclear armed rogue America. That's not going to be good for anybody, least of all North Korea. THEY CAN'T WIN.


According to a Japanese intelligence source, North Korea has a secret plan to hit Tokyo with Rodong missiles loaded with chemicals first and then a large special force unit will occupy it as a hostage. Other cities in Japan may be attacked similarly. If enough cities are held as hostages, the allied may be forced to sue for peace.

It won't work. The Koreans can't get enough force across the Sea of Japan to hold cities against Japanese and American forces, and America would nuke them before we "sued for peace". A first strike with chems? Are you nuts?

As for your quote from General LaPorte- it his his job to take the North Koreans seriously. He can't say they are harmless or his command what get the support it needs. He didn't say that North Korea could take his men- he said the North Korea needed to be taken seriously- that's all.


Many people doubt North Korea’s military capability, and think a war with North Korea would be a cake walk in the park. Those people should wake up! We DO NOT want to mess with North Korea. If we did it could lead to another world war, and a nuclear holocaust.

We don't want to mess with Korea because they have a chance of causing great harm to our Japanese allies if we don't have enough time and equipment to defend Japan against the missile threat. That's about it.
There won't be another world war. The truth is that if North Korea attacks anybody, China will probably tell us to stay out of it while they kick Kim's butt, beacuse they dont want us occupying their neighbor and they dont want a large war which could hurt their economic progress. They also definately don't want a falling out with America- which would be the economic death of BOTH of our countries.
A war with North Korea wouldn't be a cake-walk, but it would be a swift a legendary victory. We'd lose several thousand men in a war that would last between 1 and 6 months and we'd strip North Korea of all arms and place them under South Korean/UN control. Japan may or may not make it- but it wouldn't be our fault anyway, and I'm not convinced that our government gives a rats rectum.


North Korea has an elite special force squad ready to annihilate America.

That's hillarious. Say it again.



posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 11:24 PM
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That was one of the longest posts I've seen on ATS liquid...
Congrats....

...for wasting a bunch of time and space.



Bottom line - North Korea doesn't have the manpower, resources, leadership, alliances, etc. to defeat the US in "total war". It's just not possible.

I'm very confused as to why you're so high on NKs military



posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 11:29 PM
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Umm... abrams tanks can move much faster than 55 kmh, especially if the tank crews disable the governor like they did in the race to baghdad. Second of all since when has anyone listed the t-62 as an advantage?
it may have a large cannon but it doesn't have nearly the targetting capability.

Thanks for the article though... aside from grievously inflated numbers on both sides and severe misconceptions about modern weapons and warfare I would say you were on to something. However you aren't but thanks for trying



posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 11:45 PM
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I am not defending N. Korea, nor do i support their actions.
I am simply trying to say do not underestimate their military capabilities.
& when was it nice to harass or belittle people? I am trying to inform you, yet you post replies that try to belittle me, and make you seem superior.
I thought ATS was a place to post a wide vary of view points and opinions.
I thought the motto was "Deny ignorance" not embrace it. Guess not.

Liquid

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posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 11:58 PM
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Ignorance.... that's what DPRK has been living in for the past 50 years. And, yes...I have seen North Korea...across the DMZ. Looks like crap with little sprinkles on top. NK may have the ability to produce nuclear weapons, but their deliverability is lacking. What good in having a big dog on your porch if the dog has no legs? Good luck NK in using your deterrence. At least we know you can irradiate your own land for the next 10,000 years. Buth then again, who cares...food doesn't grow there now. Little Kim, Little Kim...come out of your shell. Welcome to the real world and not your ignorant past. How egotistical of the DPRK to change their history books to promote the "Great Leader" as a descendant of mythology.
As for force projection in a conventional conflict...I don't see St. Louis in any danger of air raids of napalm to destroy thier tar roof houses.



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 01:05 AM
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Originally posted by LiquidationOfDiscrepancy
1. North Korea Can Engage the US in Total War
North Korea is one of the few nations that can engage in a total war with the United States.

Actually they are one of the nations least able to do so. They're lack of long range naval capabilities, their lack of proximity to either the United States or vital interests of the United States, their lack of diplomatic influence, and their extreme poverty make their large military a paper tiger, incapable of taking the fight abroad.
The comment from General Schwartz illustrates only the belligerent nature of the North Korean government. Nothing about it suggests that North Korea is a potent threat, especially outside of the peninsula.


Western press and analysts distort the truth and depict North Korea as an "impoverished" nation, starving

Aren't they? They are 100% dependent on fuel imports and even their military engages in subsistence farming.


An impoverished, starving nation cannot face down a military superpower.

That's what I'm trying to tell you!


North Korea has made it clear that it will strike all US targets with all means, if the US mounted military attacks on North Korea.

Everyone says that. Iraq, Iran, Al Qaida, everyone. What do they have to show for it? 9/11- thats all. Motive isn't enough- you need opportunity. NK doesn't have it.


Did the US plane see them coming? If it did, why no evasive action?

It's called carrying out your mission. You don't just turn and run everytime you see rival forces. Situations like this were common during the cold war both in the air and on the sea.


After intercepting the US plane, the hostile planes dogged it for 22 min. Why no American planes for the rescue?

22 minutes is hardly an eternity. Why did the North Koreans not take action- why did they leave? Perhaps because they could not continue their shenanigans without being attacked my American aircraft?
Furthermore it would might have been politically unacceptible to have a shooting incident. Perhaps America was just keeping the peace.


If Kim Jong Il had given the command, the MiGs would have shot down the US plane

Two days later North Korea wouldn't have had an airforce anymore.


For this reason, North Korea's war plan is offensive in nature: North Korea's war plan goes beyond repulsing US attackers and calls for destruction of the United States.

Their missiles are incapable of achieving this. American subs are on station and could anhilate North Korea's WMD in a single strike at the first hint of a Korean attack in the works. This is probably why America hasn't hit North Korea, because we know we will end up nuking them and not getting hit back, thus looking very bad and suffering tremendous political and economic fallout.


3. North Korea's Military Capability
All nations keep their military capability secret.

But thanks to satellites, air recon, and intelligence contacts with nations that supply the hardware, this is very difficult. We know most of what North Korea has and we have seen it up close and know what it can do.


US Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld said that North Korea uses underground optical fibers for military communication and that it is nearly impossible to plant human agents in North Korea.

Just like we did in Iraq though, we can drop a couple of covert ops boys onto the Beach in Korea, they can hump through the empty countryside to a designated position, tap into the fiber optics lines, go back to the beach and swim out to their EP. Having been in the military and having many friends in the military, I "know" a few Recon Marines and SEALs (through 2 or 3 degrees of separation) and get to hear about what exactly they do. They are capable of getting into enemy communications, and even Kim Jong Il's brains, although accessing Kim Jong Il's brain would be a suicide mission and would not yield any intelligence- only result in the destruction of Kim's brain.



Several small to medium hydro-power plants serve these plants so that it would be nearly impossible for the US to cut off power to the plants.

So now we can't blow up a lousy dam? I'm assuming that whoever "US" is, you aren't referring to the United States, because your ridiculous assessment of American capabilities hardly even merits refutation at this point.


North Korea's military is organized into several independent, totally integrated and self-sufficient fighting units, that are ready for action at any time.

That's hardly an innovation. The fact that you even bring it up points to the lack of real advantage held by the Koreans. Virtually every military in the world is organized into divisions which are capable of independent operation. What would the alternative be? A great big mob of men composed of the entire strength of your military which operates as one big "blob"?



Karl von Clausewitz said that people's support for war, military commanders' ability and power, and the political leadership are the three essentials for winning war. He failed to include the political indoctrination of the soldiers, which is perhaps more important than the other factors cited.

The Duke of Marlborough found astounding success in his ability to cover long distances and demand incredible feats of his men by careful planning and provisions, thus proving the axiom "Ametuers study tactics, Professionals study logistics." The logistical nightmare which North Korea's impovrished forces will face is sure to drastically reduce the effectiveness of their extremely large and vaunted force.


In June 1998, another submarine got caught in fishing nets at Sokcho and its crew killed themselves. Such is the fighting spirit of North Korean soldiers.

Funny you bring this up. When you were touting how dangerous their huge submarine force was, I almost decided to joke that Japan would net them and sell them to America as sushi before they managed to infiltrate Japan and take cities hostage.


i) Artillery
North Korea has 2 artillery corps and 30 artillery brigades equipped with 120mm self-propelled guns, 152mm self-propelled mortars, 170mm guns with a range of 50 km

Be careful about giving credit for the 50km range to all of their artillery. Their domestic knockoffs of the D-20 have a range of almost exactly 1/3 of that for example. Domestic 120mm guns modeled after D-20 and similiar weapons make up the majority of their force if I remember correctly.


240 mm multiple rocket launchers with a range of 45 km, and other heavy guns. North Korea has about 18,000 heavy guns.

More like 10 or 11 thousand according to my research. I'm pressed for time and closed the link already but I'll get it for you again this weekend if you'd like to argue over it.


The big guns are hidden in caves. Many of them are mounted on rails and can fire in all directions.

It's a good thing they can, because the Americans won't be in Seoul- they'll be in Pyongyang.


They can rain 500,000 conventional and biochemical shells per hour on US troops near the DMZ.

300,000 according to the numbers I've seen. Whoever is giving you your facts is consistently giving the Koreans a bonus of between 60 and 300%


North Korea has tanks, armored cars, and self-propelled artillery for blitz klieg. North Korea has one tank corps and 15 tank brigades. The tank corps has 5 tank regiments, each of which has 4 heavy tank battalions, 1 light-tank battalion, one mechanized infantry battalion, 2 self-propelled artillery battalions.

However their outdated equipment has inferior range, inferior optics, and inferior rate of fire. The Abrams could realistically be expected to perform with up to 5 times the effectiveness of Korea's T-55 and T-62 knockoffs.


US tanks are designed to operate in open fields.

But can be employed in what has sometimes been called "bad tank country" and can be effective. I recommend Lt.Col John Antal's "Combat Team". IBSN 0-89141-635-8


In 1973, Egypt defeated Israeli tanks with anti-tank missiles.

Egypt lost the battle for the Sinai, despite throwing two corps at the Israelis. They got 15km past the Suez and the Israeli Sinai division stopped them dead in their tracks as reserve units began making their way to the front to assist.
en.wikipedia.org...

They were able to cut off the supply lines of the Third Army, stretching to the south, and soon after began encircling them. With the Third Army being cut off and surrounded, only the intervention of the USSR and the United States saved it from imminent destruction.



American and Western tank commanders do not know how to fight tank battles in rugged terrains like those of Korea. Tank battles in Korea will be fought on hilly terrains without any close air cover, because North Korean fighters will engage US planes in close dog fights.

You are speaking from your nethers and I defy you to cite any army doctrine which states that the Army does not consider it necessary to prepare for war on rugged terrain.
The book I recommended was written by an officer who served with the National Training Center's OPFOR and is based on lessons learned by the role of armor in the first Korean War, particularly the 23rd RCT's defensive action at Chipyong-ni in 1951 and the 72nd Tank Batallion's "Operation Touchdown" in support of the 2nd Infantry Division's assault on Heartbreak Ridge later that year.


T-62s - have 155 mm guns and can travel as fast as 60 km per hour.

T-62 uses a 115mm smoothbore and has been a dismal failure in past operations, particularly when Chad defeated Qaddafi's Pan African Legion in 1982.
T-62s are often fielded with an outdated form of APFDS which uses a steel penetrator instead of Tungsten or DU. The T-62MV that Russia sells to North Korea can fire the AT-10 laser guided missile and presents perhaps the only significant threat that our tanks would face in a war with North Korea.
The top speed is more like 45km/hour too. Get your facts straight buddy.


North Korean tanks have skins 700 mm thick and TOW-II is the only anti-tank missile in the US arsenal that can penetrate this armored skin.

More like up to 275mm homogenous cast steel according to Wikipedia. We should ask Kozzy though, or I could check the strategypage later. Maybe 700mm up front, but I doubt it. You can't just triple a tank's armor and claim that it still gets 50% more top speed than is generally expected unless you've got some serious horsepower "under the hood".
The T-62 has proven extremely vulnerable to many forms of threat, including "Technicals" equipped with recoilless rifles.



North Korea has developed special bikes for mountain warfare.

They're going to need them- they sure as hell wont ahve much gasoline when our airforce gets after them.


You seem to have no goal other than stirring up ridiculous (and verbose) attacks on America's military. It sounds impressive when you focus on inflated numbers about the Korean military, but you are completely disregarding the capabilities of the forces they will face. You've only loaded one half of the scale- no wonder the Korean's look so heavy.



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 01:31 AM
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Ok just did a quick Google search on North Koreas forces.




Reconnaissance units operate in small teams behind enemy lines locating and pinpointing targets. This may be done to mark them for destruction or to ascertain enemy intentions and movements. These units have operated in South Korea and have tangled with South Korean counter-terrorism units in the past. One publicized incident involved a special submarine from the 1st flotilla of the 22nd Squadron which ran aground with a team of three commandos and twenty-one Navy crew members. In this incident, starting early the morning of September 19, 1996, one of the North Korean commandos was captured and the rest of the crew killed, either by South Korean soldiers and police or by each other.

North Korea Special Forces



Economy - overview: North Korea, one of the world's most centrally planned and isolated economies, faces desperate economic conditions. Industrial capital stock is nearly beyond repair as a result of years of underinvestment and spare parts shortages. Industrial and power output have declined in parallel. The nation has suffered its tenth year of food shortages because of a lack of arable land, collective farming, weather-related problems, and chronic shortages of fertilizer and fuel. Massive international food aid deliveries have allowed the regime to escape mass starvation since 1995-96, but the population remains the victim of prolonged malnutrition and deteriorating living conditions. Large-scale military spending eats up resources needed for investment and civilian consumption. In 2003, heightened political tensions with key donor countries and general donor fatigue threatened the flow of desperately needed food aid and fuel aid as well. Black market prices continued to rise following the increase in official prices and wages in the summer of 2002, leaving some vulnerable groups, such as the elderly and unemployed, less able to buy goods. The regime, however, relaxed restrictions on farmers' market activities in spring 2003, leading to an expansion of market activity.

Korea, North

And heres a good one from the same site above about North Korea and there ally China.



China has been attempting to stop mass illegal migration of North Koreans escaping famine, economic privation, and oppression into northern China


And yes the two above do come from the CIA factbook.





According to various sources of information, North Korea seemed to have reprocessed enough plutonium to produce one or two nuclear weapons. In addition, sufficient plutonium for another six nuclear weapons remained in fuel removed from the reactor at Yongbon but stored under international supervision, under the provisions of the 1994 Agreed Framework.

Nuclear Weapons Program

So it does not look like the North is going to have enough nukes to nuke everyone. But I remember before Gulf War 1 a lot of people were saying that Iraq was going to give us a hard time when we attacked, because remember they had one of the worlds largest army's at the time, they had just recently ended a war with Iran in which they "learned" a lot of leasons and so on. Well we all saw how that turned out.
As for my two cents I don't see the U.S. attacking North Korea anytime soon, if we really wanted to hurt the North all we would have to do is stop sending food supplys to them and just starve them. When people dont eat they get upset and when the guys with the guns (Army) dont eat that's when the people in power are no longer in power.



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 02:18 AM
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The Russians will absolutley not do anything but try to protect their massive borders when the war breaks out. The North will eventually be pushed up to its Russian border and east to its Chinese border. With their backs against the wall many will try to retreat into China. That will not happen on any large scale. Only select officers will be allowed sanctuary in China. If the Chinese suddenly back the North then all hell will break lose and the Chinese know it. The Chinese military is huge and strong. But when US forces start racking up 1 of ours for 1000 or more of theirs through not even close to being fully unveiled US technological supremacy then splinter factions from within China such as the Falun Gong will eat China from within causing a Chinese military collapse.

Text

The most likely scenario is that the North fights hard but eventually starts getting chopped to pieces and are forced to retreat north over the border into Russia. The North is far more likely to take and hold a large chunk of Russia and do the attrition thing from there. US forces will take and hold the north. Russia will have a hell of a time dealing with the North and it could take them a couple years to wipe them all out. The US repeatedly offers assistance but Russia is to proud to have US forces come over their border. Russia sadly resorts to using low yield nukes on large pockets of stubborn resistance on their own soil plunging Russia into total economic collapse. A civil war and revelotion ensues.

Text

China rapidly and massivley arms their northern borders. A Russian civil war will have more than two sides. At the first sign of a Russian faction retreating into China or invading China the Chinese invade all of southeastern Russia and manage to hold it. Whats left of Russia then has a "patriotic" moment and launches enormous nuclear strike on Chinese held positions in the southeast and also upon the Chinese mainland. The US eventually hands what was North Korea to the South Korean and Japanese governments. The US is once again left as the superpower left standing.

Text

Within no more than ten years the then united Korean peninsula goes to war with Japan. The US sides with Japan. Large forces of North Korean soldiers who took off their uniforms and donned civilian clothes and were thought to have been killed are mistaken for North Korean civilians and are allowed to exist on the Indian border in large villages. When the Korean US/Japanese war starts those remaining North Korean border towns try to take advantage of the confusion and invade into India and Pakistan and trigger an all out Indian Pakisitani nuclear exchange. Now that nearly all of asia is radioactive ash the US and Japan disengage Korea completely leaving them to dissolve in politics and radiation. Japan becomes the worlds other superpower as they dominate the remaining Pacific and are very happy with it for a very long time. The EU begins to disintigrate back into a cold war type system as they try to repair the massive damge done by roving rougue Russian armys loyal to no one. Whats left of Russia actually manages to eventually become a nation again and are very succesful considering that they no longer have to account for what was once most of asia.

Text

The NATO nations are left quite unscathed considering. Australias population increases a quarter billion. Canadas population increases by half a billion. With a quarter of the worlds land mass left a radioactive hell populations have no choice but to seek refuge elsewhere. The US is left more powerful than ever. Now having a twenty million man army to deal with so many fronts. The middle east governments collapse seeing that there is no more Russia and North Korea or China to supply them. Having almost no more material support whatsoever for extremist governments, US forces sweep the entire middle east. By now oil no longer powers a full half of what it used to. Mexico becomes the 51st state. Then Puerto Rico. Thank you...



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 11:06 AM
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The Vagabond, by no means am I doubting the Army Rangers, Navy Seals, 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment - Delta (SFOD-D), Special Forces, or the US Military. I am not defending North Korea, I was trying to make the point do not Underestimate an enemy considered much weaker than we are. Quite frankly I love our special operations, and one day may plan on going to NSA, CIA, or 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment - Delta (SFOD-D), after being in the Army Rangers a while. You do not know how much I love our special operations.


We have one of the best military's in the world. I was just trying to humble ourself, so we do not become pompous. Yes we might could crush other enemies like ants in the sand, but let us humble ourself.

Plus you can't trust everything you read on the net.

I know more about this than I am revealing, and I actually agree with some of your statements, but if we go to war with another country, lets not have the attitude that they are far less superior than us.

"North Korea has an elite special force squad ready to annihilate America."
When I stated that I said they were ready, I never said they would. Yet don't doubt their capabilities.

My question to you though is, how do you think our military special forces are compared to Germany's, Russia's, Isreal's, & UK's special forces/operations? I must say I take pride and honor in our special forces/operations, because of our eliteness.


-your friend Liquid

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[edit on 113030p://666 by LiquidationOfDiscrepancy]



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by LiquidationOfDiscrepancy
Plus you can't trust everything you read on the net.

I know more about this than I am revealing, and I actually agree with some of your statements, but if we go to war with another country, lets not have the attitude that they are far less superior than us.


I'll start by saying that I agree it's better to take the enemy seriously. Often enough I'm the one calling for exactly that and heckling down the people who think that America is completely unassailable no matter what. That being said, some of the statements made about North Korean capabilities were a bit far fetched.
If you'd said that North Korea's special forces can infiltrate South Korea undetected, play hell with command and control, and open the door for an initial upset of our forces on the ground, I would agree with you. To claim that a few thousand guys delivered by 70 mini-subs are going to capture Tokyo, much less anhilate the United States though? At a certain point I think that over-estimation can invalidate the discussion. It's better to discuss the most realistic and plausible capabilities so that those are focused on and hopefully avoided.
Things I would worry about in a war with North Korea would be the invention of clever tactics and techniques that minimize the advantage of superior American hardware. For example, when playing defense in constricted and mountainous terrain, the use of oil-fires contained in tank ditches or specially designed flares can blind American tanks to level the playingfield, and at point-blank not only would T-72s (maybe T-62s with improved ammo- definately not the 115mm steel penetrator though) would be able to score kills on the Abrams. Using a grid system and spotters who weren't behind the ditch, the defenders could actually even gain a visibility advantage over superior tanks. So clever use of terrain presents a possible problem and it would be important to consider and prepare for such challenges.
Terrain considerations such as that would be far more appropriate to consider than the possibility of a few undersupported special forces taking and holding Japanese cities, much less American ones.


"North Korea has an elite special force squad ready to annihilate America."
When I stated that I said they were ready, I never said they would. Yet don't doubt their capabilities.

My intention is not to doubt their capabilities. I'm sure these guys are hard as nails. I just don't think that with a 70 mini subs they can move enough men and material off of the peninsula, assemble it undetected, launch an effective assault on a major city, and hold it against police, national guard, and eventually regular military incursions. If nothing else it exceeds their logistical capabilities.


My question to you though is, how do you think our military special forces are compared to Germany's, Russia's, Isreal's, & UK's special forces/operations? I must say I take pride and honor in our special forces/operations, because of our eliteness.

-your friend Liquid


Unfortunately I haven't had the pleasure of dealing with anyone with foreign SF experience. I have a high degree of confidence in our special forces because we have the resources to afford them extensive training, and because America has a strong military tradition which lends what you might call "intangibles" to our men (for example I believe that if you gave an American serviceman and an Iraqi serviceman the exact same training, that the American would get more out of it because he has a tradition to live up to.) I couldn't speak for how they measure up to everyone else though just because I don't have detailed knowledge about other nation's SF.




posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 11:48 AM
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The Vagabond

I like your constructive criticism , I think we may possibly have more in common than you may think, free feel to u2u I’d like to chat with you. I’m glad you just wasn’t on of these posters that made claims without some sort of evidence to back it up with. You caught the fish, and brought it home to prove per say.
Thanks for providing links. Just u2u me, and we can chat
Even though we may disagree on a few things, least we can have intelligent debates.

-Your Friend Liquid



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by LiquidationOfDiscrepancy
Thanks for providing links. Just u2u me, and we can chat
Even though we may disagree on a few things, least we can have intelligent debates.

-Your Friend Liquid


Always glad to befriend another military buff. Every month or so I get the urge to play armchair general around here and it looks like you'll often be either a worthy opponent or ally- whichever the case may be in a given discussion.
I've got an old thread on Iran vs America. I think I overestimated Iran in it but I may dust it off and bring it back up with new facts and figures and a slightly modified scenario. If I ever get around to it I'll send you the link. In the meantime I have a thread that touches somewhat on the possibility of a rivalry between Iran and Russia- you may want to offer your thoughts on it


www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Edit to add:
-Your friend Vagabond (just so as not to be rude and leave that unrequited)

[edit on 2-4-2005 by The Vagabond]



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 12:17 PM
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Sure thing, thanks for the link. I'll read into your post



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 12:40 PM
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Liquidation, North Korea is militarily weak, in spite of its claims as being robust and formidable, toward the United States but can be militarily equal to that of South Korea's military capabilities.

North Korea is full of blustering claims and brinkmanship, all hot air talks but no solid evidence of their capabilities.

I compare North Korea's claims to that of Baghdad Bob's (Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, Iraqi Information Minister) claims that the Iraqi forces were soundly and decisively smashing the US forces invading Iraq just at the same time as the US tanks and troops were entering Baghdad.


North Korea's military capabilities are by far nothing to underestimate or overestimate, just plainly estimable to the points of which they haven't prove themselves so far. Fifty years since the end of the Korean War can be the difference between North Korea's past and today's military capabilities. It is more likely that the North Korean military would revert to defensive tactics quickly after a failed offensive strategy and would find themselves in a losing corner, eventually leading to its quick collapse.

China would be less likely to intervene in this war except to lend half-heartedly "moral" support to a North Korean government having been annoying and condescending to the Chinese government for so long.



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 01:05 PM
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I feel like I won't be taken seriously unless my response is sonewhere around 2000 words like everyone else but here goes...
Liquid, you bring some valuble ideas to the table but...

Iraq had the largest standing army in the world that was well equipped with state of the art Russian equipment and battle tested.

It is now a jumble of playground eqipment for desert scorpians.

North Korean Special forces... this is a perfect example of size does not matter.

Launching a nuke on American terriotory? So we have some polar bears that glow.

You had a valid point that we can't take enemies lightly but you fell into a pool of internet babble.



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by LiquidationOfDiscrepancy
Plus you can't trust everything you read on the net.

I know more about this than I am revealing, ........


lol, I love that statement LoD. You say not to believe everything on the net yet... your entire post is just a copy & paste job. And the source website is called Korea Web Weekly. Oh yeah, very reliable
.

If you know more about this then your revealing then why not stop just copying & pasting from some Korean website and tell us the stuff you know.



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by andpau66

Originally posted by LiquidationOfDiscrepancy
Plus you can't trust everything you read on the net.

I know more about this than I am revealing, ........


lol, I love that statement LoD. You say not to believe everything on the net yet... your entire post is just a copy & paste job. And the source website is called Korea Web Weekly. Oh yeah, very reliable
.

If you know more about this then your revealing then why not stop just copying & pasting from some Korean website and tell us the stuff you know.


Because I don't want this thread to be ffilled with hate bashing on others opinions



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 01:21 PM
link   

Originally posted by andpau66

Originally posted by LiquidationOfDiscrepancy
Plus you can't trust everything you read on the net.

I know more about this than I am revealing, ........


lol, I love that statement LoD. You say not to believe everything on the net yet... your entire post is just a copy & paste job. And the source website is called Korea Web Weekly. Oh yeah, very reliable
.

If you know more about this then your revealing then why not stop just copying & pasting from some Korean website and tell us the stuff you know.


Because I don't want this thread to be filled with hate bashing on others opinions


[edit on 013030p://666 by LiquidationOfDiscrepancy]



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