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Fast-firing turret to protect vehicles against RPGs

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posted on Mar, 29 2005 @ 05:40 PM
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Fast-Firing Turret Aims to Counter RPGs

By RICHARD R. BURGESS, Managing Editor
Navyleague.org


"United Defense Industries is developing a gun system to intercept and destroy incoming RPGs. The Close-In Countermeasures (CICM) system features an infrared sensor, radar and guns mounted on a swiveling turret designed to be installed on an armored vehicle such as a Bradley Fighting Vehicle."

"Although the RPG has been a longstanding threat, the war in Iraq has again highlighted the need for effective countermeasures, said Herb Muktarian, a spokesman for United Defense Ground Systems in York, Pa."

"United Defense, a long-time contractor of the Army’s Tank and Automotive Research, Development and Engineering Center, formed a team and initiated development of CICM on its own initiative and with its own funds, which it declined to quantify. The team developed its solution in less than nine months, according to Carl Sullinger, the company’s CICM program manager."

"The full CICM system was tested in September 2004 at the Army’s Redstone Technical Test Center in Alabama, where it successfully detected, tracked and destroyed RPGs before they could hit their targets."

"The CICM uses a microbolometer infrared imaging camera — developed by BAE Systems’ Information & Electronic Warfare Systems — to detect the launch flame of an RPG. The lightweight microbolometer camera is a new generation of infrared sensor, according to Marianne Murphy, a spokeswoman for BAE Systems. It is not to be confused with a night-vision device that amplifies moonlight or starlight to create an image."

"Microbolometer cameras can be used to view targets in total darkness, or smoky or foggy conditions, and create an image like that viewed on a black-and-white television. Microbolometer systems weigh 1.5 to 4 pounds and operate on four to six AA-size batteries. They are sized for use on sights for infantry weapons and crew-served weapons, and are useful for targeting and surveillance by light armored vehicles, small unmanned aerial vehicles and robotic ground vehicles."

"By contrast, earlier infrared systems — commonly used on aircraft, vehicles or naval vessels — used cryogenic coolers or mechanical optical scanners, weighed 25 pounds or more, and required several pounds of batteries to operate for 12 hours."

"The infrared system cues the low-cost radar to automatically track the incoming RPG. The multibarreled, recoilless launchers mounted on either side of the turret fire lightweight nonexplosive rounds that impact and destroy the RPG."

"For proprietary reasons, Muktarian declined to reveal more specific characteristics of the launchers, which photographs show featuring two bundles of multiple small-caliber barrels."

"With regard to concerns that such a quick-reaction weapon system might result in friendly fire mishaps, Muktarian said the CICM is designed with safety features that enable it to “accurately discern real threats from false targets.”



Sounds cool, I wonder if it uses Metal Storm...


[edit on 29-3-2005 by NWguy83]




posted on Mar, 29 2005 @ 11:51 PM
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I don't think they will sue metal storm just yet but they should sue metal storm can be use dot fire faster than conventional cannons or guns. and this is good news they have something to combat mortars and RPG’s not the only thing left is to find something against IED’s.



posted on Mar, 30 2005 @ 10:31 AM
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its pretty good countermeasure, but still the insurgents arent goin to line up and fire an rpg each, they may try to fire at the same time and the turret aint dat fast lol. but still its a start, IEDs by the way are being countered by the new jamming devices, sadly it takes time to deploy them in masses.



posted on Mar, 30 2005 @ 04:22 PM
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Yeah its a start even if this device has 50 or 70% success rate it will still save a lot of lives. And will make the war less expensive because we own have to replace as many trucks or HUMVEES.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 12:05 PM
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This sounds like an awfully similar spin on Russia's 30+ year old active defence systems for armoured vehicles. The only difference is they're favouring a bunch of smaller projectiles rather then the Russian approach of launching explosives in the general direction so that the force of the explosions intercepts the RPG pre-impact. Note I'm not talking about ERA.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by Senor Freebie
This sounds like an awfully similar spin on Russia's 30+ year old active defence systems for armoured vehicles. The only difference is they're favouring a bunch of smaller projectiles rather then the Russian approach of launching explosives in the general direction so that the force of the explosions intercepts the RPG pre-impact. Note I'm not talking about ERA.


Russian systems use radars instead of IR and explosives instead of projectiles. That's their main disadvantage - they produce a lot of poorly targeted shrapnels dangerous for nearby infantry. Also they were built against long range guided anti tank misiles like Javelin instead of RPGs.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 01:28 PM
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A cheaper method to counter RPG's is to slap chicken wire all over the vehicle, may not work as well on Humvees or Land Rovers, but is actually quite effective on armoured vehicles. The RPG bouces of the chicken wire and explodes a few feet, sometimes doesn't even explode.



posted on Dec, 29 2005 @ 08:42 PM
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Interesting I never knew that. why would it not work on a humve/landrover



posted on Dec, 30 2005 @ 02:26 AM
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Originally posted by Zanzibar
A cheaper method to counter RPG's is to slap chicken wire all over the vehicle, may not work as well on Humvees or Land Rovers, but is actually quite effective on armoured vehicles. The RPG bouces of the chicken wire and explodes a few feet, sometimes doesn't even explode.


Too many will get through, remember that it usually only takes one. In Iraq Strykers use slat armour and while it does detonate the RPG away from the vehicle, it is not perfect. Vehicles with the armour have been destroyed. It is also heavy and makes the vehicle wider.



posted on Dec, 30 2005 @ 05:11 AM
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Its not a perfect method of course, but its better than nothing if you need some cheap protection in a nasty area.

It doesn't really work on Humvees or Land Rovers because theres nowhere to put it, they have a box shape with no angles to out the wire.



posted on Dec, 30 2005 @ 05:38 AM
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Originally posted by jetsetter
Too many will get through, remember that it usually only takes one. In Iraq Strykers use slat armour and while it does detonate the RPG away from the vehicle, it is not perfect.


This method has been around for years and is simple, effective and cheap against RPGS for many vehicle types M1s sometimes use it aswell as Strykers. Whats makes RPGs so dangerous is that they work on a shape charge principle and for that to work the RPG round must be in direct contact with the armour. The cage detonates it before it contacts the armour and pretty much turns a shape charge into only a grenade.

It wouldn't really work for unarmoured Humvees though as a grenade can still damage them. Armoured versions might be able to use it though I cant say I ever seen this done before.



posted on Dec, 30 2005 @ 09:29 AM
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you guys forget that its the us's job to find the most expensive and complex way to do the same thing



posted on Dec, 30 2005 @ 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by TristanBW9456
you guys forget that its the us's job to find the most expensive and complex way to do the same thing


So true. So true. At least it should save a few lives though.



posted on Dec, 30 2005 @ 03:18 PM
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I am not sure that there is a fullproof methods to deter such attacking methods, but this, along with a couple of other established vehicle protection countermeasures, is a very innovative start.






seekerof



posted on Dec, 30 2005 @ 09:08 PM
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It is but will it be able to do anything. When will this be put on humvees. probably too late



posted on Dec, 31 2005 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX

Originally posted by jetsetter
Too many will get through, remember that it usually only takes one. In Iraq Strykers use slat armour and while it does detonate the RPG away from the vehicle, it is not perfect.


This method has been around for years and is simple, effective and cheap against RPGS for many vehicle types M1s sometimes use it aswell as Strykers. Whats makes RPGs so dangerous is that they work on a shape charge principle and for that to work the RPG round must be in direct contact with the armour. The cage detonates it before it contacts the armour and pretty much turns a shape charge into only a grenade.

It wouldn't really work for unarmoured Humvees though as a grenade can still damage them. Armoured versions might be able to use it though I cant say I ever seen this done before.


This method has been used in NI on armoured Snatch and Hotspur Land Rovers and Saracen/Saxon APCs with great effect. It is so effective that it is even mounted on the outside of many security force sangers. Cheap and cheerful, but dead effective.

It is more effective not to use any cages etc against RPG threats in a soft-skinned vehicle as the cloth covering is not very good at detonating the round. Unless you are the poor sod who gets a direct hit from the actual round, you are likely to be only slightly wounded, if wounded at all.



posted on Dec, 31 2005 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by longbow

Originally posted by Senor Freebie
This sounds like an awfully similar spin on Russia's 30+ year old active defence systems for armoured vehicles. The only difference is they're favouring a bunch of smaller projectiles rather then the Russian approach of launching explosives in the general direction so that the force of the explosions intercepts the RPG pre-impact. Note I'm not talking about ERA.


Russian systems use radars instead of IR and explosives instead of projectiles. That's their main disadvantage - they produce a lot of poorly targeted shrapnels dangerous for nearby infantry. Also they were built against long range guided anti tank misiles like Javelin instead of RPGs.


Actually there are 2 different Active Russian systems. 1 uses IR for sure because it can defeat 2 of the worlds best IR AT missiles (have seen video of testing). The older one may have been designed to defeat radar guided missiles but I haven't read up on that. As for dumbfire RPG's, the IR guided one has a system that also detects the rocket behind an incoming AT round. If it detects it in time it will use the system to slow or completely stop it. However there is more margin for error with the dumb fire weapons.

Also, the most advanced system of this type is of Chinese invention. Their Type 98 tank has a high powered laser mounted on the roof of the turret along with some fancy detection systems. If you paint any part of the Type 98 with a laser rangefinder (part of tank to tank or missile to tank combat) the system will detect that rangefinder and burn it with the laser. The laser is reported to be powerful enough to damage or even destroy human eyes if aimed at an another tanks sights.

I agree with PaddyInf on cages around Very light armoured vehicles. If you pre-detonate a shaped charge aimed at a HMMWV the size of the explosion the hits the vehicle will be larger then if it detonated against the vehicle itself. In other words all 5 crew members could be killed as opposed to maybe 0-3 depending on where the projectile detonates. Think of a shaped charge this way. Its cone would be a large triangle. Maybe 3 meters deep and 2 meters wide at the end. Anything caught in that cone will be destroyed, ripped off, broken into tiny pieces. Now put that cone over a HMMWV in top down view. The start of the triangle is thin and on some angles numerous crew could survive even if it detonated on a crew member. Now put the start of the triangle half a meter off the edge of the vehicle and you see a completely different story.

[edit on 31-12-2005 by Senor Freebie]



posted on Dec, 31 2005 @ 07:29 PM
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A reinforced metal cage, like these being used on Stryker’s in Iraq now will pre detonate a RPG round but they can’t protect the vehicle from suffering heavy damage, and the potential for death is still be high. This proposed system even though it wont be 100% efficient would destroy RPG rounds at a safe distance away before it can to do any serious damage. Now I think this type of system combined with a steel cage should suffice in protecting any vehicle from RPG hits.



Stryker Steel Cage




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