The dreaded abortion thread

Actually, it's not that dreaded.. I was thinking, with the Florida abortion thread going on, that this is just about the only topic i can't remember seeing ever being really discussed here (that i've seen).

I know this is a sensitive topic so I'm not looking for any fighting in this thread - i'm just curious where people stand on the issue and why.

I'll go first:

I am against abortion - to me it's a matter of responsibility. I'm pro-choice, but the choice I'm for is the choice to not have sex. If you choose to have sex, then you should live with the consequences. Ignorance and age are not a valid excuse. This is why we have parents and sex education. Abortions should not be done simply because the pregnancy was unplanned or the mother feels unable to provide for the child; there are always alternatives such as adoption.

Admittedly, one gets into a grey area in situations where 1. The mother's life is in danger (although this seems like it wuld be somewhat rare, and 2. In cases of rape/incest.


OTOH - (and this is where i risk contradicting myself), I think the issue is too important to simply be outlawed.
It needs to addressed, discussed and stopped voluntarily. We need to take more responsibiliy for our actions, think more about the consequences of our actions and treat life with more respect.
Sex might be pleasureable, and there's nothing wrong with sex for pleasure, but it can still be treated as sacred at the same time - it's even better that way. It's not just fun - it's meaningful.

Ok, I strayed a bit but it's a big topic that goes to deeper questions (for me) about responsibililty and maturity and how we raise children and what we talk about and what we don't, how we think about sex, etc...

Sorry for rambling so long.

Thoughts on any of these ideas?

Last time I checked God gave us free will and we were living in a free country. I person has the right to terminate their pregnancy if that is THEIR CHOICE, regardless of whether I like it or not. It is not up to anyone else to decide.

Again I think I'll quote the late great comedian Bill Hicks to lighten the mood:

"That thing in your stomach is not a human being, it is just a bunch of congragated cells. Your not a human until you're in my phone book."

"If you're so pro-life, stop blocking med clinics. Lock arms and block cemetaries. Lets's see how #ing committed you are to this premise."

Well if the government wanted to lower unemployment and create another poinltess organization like the EPA (Enviormental Protection Agency), they could create like the ARC, or Abortion regulatory Commitee or something like that.

I'm against abortions, but you know some times they are necessary in the instance of rape and incest.
However, I don't feel pity for the poor people that wnat abortions. If you can't pay for a kid, the you shouldn't be f*cking around anyways!!

Tassadar

Originally posted by Tassadar
Well if the government wanted to lower unemployment and create another poinltess organization like the EPA (Enviormental Protection Agency), they could create like the ARC, or Abortion regulatory Commitee or something like that.

I'm against abortions, but you know some times they are necessary in the instance of rape and incest.
However, I don't feel pity for the poor people that wnat abortions. If you can't pay for a kid, the you shouldn't be f*cking around anyways!!

Tassadar

i agree with the last statement. if you cant afford to have a child then dont take the risk of possibly having one. sex isnt really a right as we might think it is. people have a right to be ignorant if they choose, does that make it ok to be ignorant? no.

i also feel "it takes two to tango" its ok if he gets into your vagina and plants his seed but not ok if he does or doesnt want said seed to "take root" and grow. i find this unusual. if he was good enough to screw then he's good enough to have a say in it. this alone makes the whole issue tough for me. but i do feel until women can become pregnant on their own without men being added into the equation in anyway(sorry sperm banks dont count, men still "make desposits" there), it shouldnt be a lone decision, admittedly i cant think of a fool proof alternative to what we have already though. but that goes back to "if you cant handle the responsibility of a kid you shouldnt be having sex" it takes two to choose to have sex. so the responsbility has to be shared as well.

there are those who have had multiple abortions because they think of it as another form of birth control. it isnt. i dont see how murder (the killing of something comprised of living cells) is illegal but destroying a fetus (the destruction of something comprised of living cells) is ok. i dont agree with woman who cant control their urges to have sex who get abortions because they put no forethought into their actions. sorry claiming ignorance doesnt excuse you from the pain of going into a clinic and going through that horrible prcedure. and sometimes it can be worse than going full term in the long run.

yes we live in a free society where we have a lot of choices we can make in our lives. as a result i dont think this is a "right or wrong issue" but more or less what fits your own moral compass.

i know i wouldnt want a woman to have an abortion if it were my child but i also wouldnt have sex with just anyone. i at least put enough thought into it to ask myself "she might get pregnant, do i really want to run that risk?" the answer is usually no and as a result i dont have sex willy nilly.


its a personal issue and should always be a personal issue.

i can see some practical purposes of having it besides having an unwanted pregnancy because of an "accident" (you still gotta live with the consequences of choosing to have sex even then.) or because you were drunk and high and this guy was looking too fine for you to say no to. and i agree with the practical purposes of abortion, in cases, of incest, rape, life of the mother or the health and life quality of the baby would be so frigging messed up it'd be more of a living nightmare.

but thats just my two cents and its just my opinion and its worthless to everyone but me.

Personally I am pro life, and feel that abortion should only be offererd to rape victims. It' is the only sencible thing, after all if you are fooling around and accidently get pregenat, it really wasn't an accident was it!

Abortion is just a way for people to cop out of responiblity. If you make grown up decisions, you should be grown up about it. Besides, enough people cannot have their own children, if some body don't want their baby, I know some people who do.

This is such a delicate subject....

Do I agree with abortion?? Well, yes and no really.

Yes of course if you have been raped and you don't want the child, but also I think if a 15 year old were to fall pregnant and they felt they couldn't give the child a proper up bringing due to having no money etc that is also acceptable. After all, who is going to suffer? The child, more than anything. There are enough people claiming benefits in this world and sponging of the social. I don't think any more should be encouraged.

On the other hand, if I were to fall pregnant now, of course I would keep my baby. I'm still only young, 21 to be exact. But, I have a job, a partner and will have lots of support from friends and family.

But and this is a BIG but.... If I fell pregnant and found out that my child was seriously disabled in some way, I would probably have an abortion. No, I'm not being selfish, but I know for a fact that it wouldn't be fair to bring a child into this world that had a serious disability. They would not have a normal life and that's just not fair.

I don't think it's right for people just to have abortions willy nilly because maybe it's not the right time... They should have been more careful.

Anyway, people will always make their own decisions, you cant dictate terms. If they want an abortion they will have one.

Yet so little to do with it. In the long run, someone will see fit to make this particular decision for women. As they have already in many states and other countries.

It should be known, that unless "you've" been in any position where you had to make a choice like this, you have no right to say yay or nay. I have never had an abortion, but if it were to arise that I became pregnant and the circumstances were not of my doing..then I would atleast like to have the option available to me whether I can/want to keep the child. But I can sit here and wonder what choice I might make, yet there's no way for me to know..I do know women that have been raped, became pregnant and the first thing they thought of was abortion..but do you know what? They all kept the babies Also, I know women say *Pocket* that if "I found out the baby inside me was mentally/physically handicapped, I'd most likely have an abortion"...but again, most women DON'T..When you have something growing inside you, you think ALOT differently!!

It's call motherly instinct, and it steps in the moment you find out you are pregnant..You'd be amazed at the feelings that run through you when you are carrying a life inside you..it becomes a part of *you* whether it's deformed or not planned or even under unfortunate circumstances such as rape, MOST women do not resort to this!

I am not for or against someone elses decision, unless it involves me. Therefore I don't think anyone else should be able to speak for someone else either..if the man & women involved become pregnant and decide for *their* personal reasons that they cannot have the baby, then it's their choice, their decision what they decide..not yours and mine.

Heres one for ya, how about we make it illegal all over the world, but a women does something *drastic* (use your imagination) to rid herself of the life inside her, *without* a legal doctor, or a doctor at all..how about this woman is someone you or I know of, or someone you read about in the newspaper? For that/those reasons there, I say/vote-Keep it legal and let it be a clean surgery performed by a certified MD..
Magestica

ok this topic was discussed a few months back, with the same arguments for and against it, so I doubt we're going to crack it this time. Guess it all comes down to personal choice, like much in life.

I'm probably about the only person on this forum who actually has first hand experience of abortion, so not only am I probably going to get slated, but I also happen to know exactly how it feels to go through the entire procedure.

8 years ago, in my final year at university and 6 months after splitting up from my fiancee, we ended up spending the night together. Four weeks later I discovered I was pregnant. So I went through all the choices available to me - keeping the baby without any means of supporting myself, family 200 miles away, a potential father well on his way to becoming an '___' addict, a potential mother going through huge amounts of exam related stress and suffering an eating disorder than meant if she put on 3lb she went to pieces and was well on the way to malnutrition; going through with the pregnancy in the same environment; or deciding to end that pregnancy.

I opted for the termination, after talking with my family, friends, a sympathetic lecturer at university and my ex-fiancee. It was a very difficult decision to make, but I don't regret going through with it as no matter how many times since I have looked back at the situation I can't see any way that it would not have severely impacted on my health if I had born the child. Especially in the last couple of years, now that I am finally in a stable job, own my house and am in reasonable mental and physical health I do feel a lot of sadness that had life been different then by now I would have a 7 year old daughter. But I still don't regret my choice, no matter how anyone judges me. The only judgement due me is that of God when I stand at the gates.

Yes I should have been more careful, but so should my partner and he wasn't prepared to be a parent either. Contraception is not fail proof. Maybe I shouldn't have sex - but sorry I enjoy it, and just because I don't particularly want children doesn't mean I should spend my life celibate. Perhaps I could have gone through to the birth and put the child up for adoption - which I personally think is an even harder choice to make, but the pregnancy itself even 2 months in was making me feel incredibly ill due to my already poor health.

I wouldn't put myself or loved ones through that again if it happened now, and if it hadn't have been for the termination giving me a huge kick up the butt in eventually sorting my head and life out I wouldn't be in the position I am now, where I can cope with the idea of oneday being pregnant again.

[Edited on 17-7-2003 by arc]

I agree with Pocket on this, abortion, it is a very delicate subject to touch on, whether your for it or against it!

Im for and against it in certain place's, a few years ago a Catholic woman was kidnapped and held hostage for nearly 3 days/night. when she finally escaped from her capter's, she needed a hell of alot of help with counselling etc, then to her and her husbands shock, she was pregnant (they knew it wasnt his, he couldnt have children) her first thought was to get rid of the baby, as she didnt want anything to do with it. But it is against everything Catholic to have one, so after much soul searching etc, she didnt have any choice but had to go through with it. When the baby was born, he was disabled, mentally and physically, the baby only lasted a few days and died peacefully in his sleep. She on the other hand had been, shun by members of her own family, friends etc because of all that had happened, it effected her that much, she killed herself.

Sad story, but true one!

Its when I see childern, and they are children, 13 14 going around with babies saying they want more and not caring that they're bringing a child into the world, and they are still only a child themselve's.

And then there's the women who cant have any children, for one reason or another, which can really hurt, knowing that there are women having abortion's left right and centre.

Some women have one child, and years later are told they cant have anymore due to their health, which is heart-breaking, knowing you cant have anymore kids, they never intended to have an only child and cry more than others! Being told that is enough to make any woman have a break down!!!!!

I am against abortion in all cases. If a brother and sister have sex then their "unholy" child should be allowed to live. What the child will go through will show those too stupid idiots that they were stupid to sleep with each other,and their lust will be marked on that child. Because of their mistake he/she will suffer. They will go to hell,he will suffer. Killing the fetus makes you no worse than the incestors(word?).

Even rape am I against it. Just because some moron raped a women does not mean the fetus should be aborted . You may love that child. If you don't want him you can always give him to a foster home.

There is no need for abortion.The amount of fetuses killed by abortions are greater than the Holocaust. (I may be wrong on this. Its either the same or more). Abortion has been going on longer than the Holocaust over 30 years. Abortion is the creation of evil men.

ARC - But I still don't regret my choice, no matter how anyone judges me. The only judgement due me is that of God when I stand at the gates.

I feel the same way ! This is also something that we have to live with for the rest of our lives. It is a personal choice and should stay that way. I won't listen to any MAN's opinion on the subject, even if that opinion IS the same as mine. I don't think it is a decision that both parties have to agree on. It is a WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE

I get the feeling no one is going to dare respond intelligently to my previous post (apart from venus), so back to general issues....

there seems to be an undercurrent in the anti-abortion camp that

1) sex is bad
2) sex is only good when in a relationship and/or for procreation
3) unmarried women get pregnant because they are promiscuous (it only takes one attempt guys)
4) women should be punished for their lust by bearing a child
5) being pregnant and then giving a child up is easy
6) being pregnant full stop is easy
7) women only get pregnant because contraception isn't used (even sterilisation can fail, trust me on this)


I'm sure there are more, but those were the obvious ones. Since when did being intolerant, judgemental and downright unforgiving make you so much better than me?

[Edited on 17-7-2003 by arc]

Originally posted by JediMaster
I am against abortion in all cases. If a brother and sister have sex then their "unholy" child should be allowed to live. What the child will go through will show those too stupid idiots that they were stupid to sleep with each other,and their lust will be marked on that child. Because of their mistake he/she will suffer. They will go to hell,he will suffer. Killing the fetus makes you no worse than the incestors(word?).

Even rape am I against it. Just because some moron raped a women does not mean the fetus should be aborted . You may love that child. If you don't want him you can always give him to a foster home.

There is no need for abortion.The amount of fetuses killed by abortions are greater than the Holocaust. (I may be wrong on this. Its either the same or more). Abortion has been going on longer than the Holocaust over 30 years. Abortion is the creation of evil men.

But kids given up for adoption often have terrible lives.

Better than not existing at all. If the adopted kid gets a good family then he will have a good life.

Abortion has been around since the 1800's, where a woman had a "back street" abortion, and more than likely died from it! (through loss of blood)

I have to agree with arc & venus, that it is a very personal thing, and nobody else's business what a woman does with her body.

[Edited on 17-7-2003 by blackwidow666]

Originally posted by JediMaster
I am against abortion in all cases. If a brother and sister have sex then their "unholy" child should be allowed to live. What the child will go through will show those too stupid idiots that they were stupid to sleep with each other,and their lust will be marked on that child. Because of their mistake he/she will suffer. They will go to hell,he will suffer. Killing the fetus makes you no worse than the incestors(word?).

Even rape am I against it. Just because some moron raped a women does not mean the fetus should be aborted . You may love that child. If you don't want him you can always give him to a foster home.

There is no need for abortion.The amount of fetuses killed by abortions are greater than the Holocaust. (I may be wrong on this. Its either the same or more). Abortion has been going on longer than the Holocaust over 30 years. Abortion is the creation of evil men.

Mind me asking how old you are and how many children you have fathered?


[Edited on 7/17/2003 by Venus]

Originally posted by Pyros
This topic always reminds me of that song by Everlast:

"Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom that said he was in love

He said, "Don't worry about a thing, baby doll
I'm the man you've been dreaming of."

But 3 months later he say he won't date her or return her call

And she swear, "God damn, if I find that man I'm cuttin' off his balls."

And then she heads for the clinic and she gets some static walking through the door

They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner
and they call her a whore

God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose

I had the same song in my head when I was posting

Sorry Pyros, it was posted twice, I tried to delete one of them and somehow they both dissappeared. Feel free to resubmit your post. Again I am sorry for the confusion.

_____________________________________________
Be Cool
K_OS

No prob...just let it stay like it is...

[Edited on 17-7-2003 by Pyros]

I'm against any attempt to legislate morality. Morals are personal responsibility, not the government's.