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christians and catholics please read...your God has killed millions...

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posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 10:31 PM
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We have good..and we have....evil..........we have God........and we have .....Satan.


Let me tell you a story:

Once upon a time there was a man, who found a book, one that was old, telling things that had happened to the people before him, and things that were yet to happen. Now, this man and other men decide to put some stuff in this book, they tell things that may have been myths back then or stories by their parents that were spun bigger than they were.. also. So, they exaggerate some things, like the flood, not a global flood, but a local flood..really,........and they said it was God who killed everybody..to make a point...that you should always choose to do what is right instead of wrong, unless you want consequences from God.
Then we have free will.........good,.. and ....evil....and when we choose to do something, good or bad, whose voice are we listening too? If someone chooses to do evil then he or she has chosen to listen to the evil that whispers in their ear. Like when someone asks you to drink or do drugs, if the person's conscience says.."no don't do it.just say no". ......then they think a few moments later, ....'go ahead you're only having fun." Who is on the side of good and on the side of evil, whispering in their earl?
So, if millions have died, from the holocaust who do you think Hitler listened to..the spirit of God, or to the devil? Did the 'devil' kill all thos people....or did "God?"
God does not choose for man to do evil but rather we decide what is evil and also are told what can kill us, like smoking for instance, yet people smoke........so they are shortening their days on earth themselves...not God...
When Jesus died on the cross it was to show all of us, that there is a purpose for this thing we call.'life'...that there is ressurection, and that the day you die is not the end, but, may be only the beginning...for everlasting life,..so he gave the ultimate gift to show us there is hope if we believe in him.who sent his son to suffer for us, and to take our sins and to bear them.so we can have everlasting life.
Wars are started by man/woman, not God...everyone has free will it is what we choose to do with it that can affect how a war starts, how peace starts..and how our own destiny is ours to change if we want to......and hope is in everybody....if we just believe..we can do anything.......... Just believe

[edit on 29-3-2005 by angeleyes101]




posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 11:57 PM
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Originally posted by Balaams donkey
Ryanp5555


...knows the choices you make BEFORE you are even created....


Well, your understanding, you will have to then admit that the future is created and waiting for us to enter. That life is programmed movie and you are but a pawn, watching it.
You said "knows your choices" if so, then how could I choose otherwise, where is my freewill. If my choices have already been decided, then how can I choose? If they are not decided, then they do not exist, if they do not exist, than how God know them?


No, he didn't create your future, you created it. He just saw it before you even existed. He isn't forcing you to choose what you choose, because you choose it. He just knows that you are going to choose it, this violates no laws of free will, and in fact is a topic discussed in philosophy.



posted on Mar, 29 2005 @ 02:53 AM
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Ryanp5555

No, he didn't create your future, you created it. He just saw it before you even existed. He isn't forcing you to choose what you choose, because you choose it. He just knows that you are going to choose it, this violates no laws of free will, and in fact is a topic discussed in philosophy.


Thank you for having a civil discussion with me. It is a new thing for me here at ATS. I am quite aware of what is dissussed in philosophy, thankyou. You and I my friend are discussing it here. Please put forth the correct understanding, that you learned, that we may see it.

Counterpoint. If I create the future, this would transgress some things.
a) I would become a creator?
b) If I create a future different than Gods outcome?
c) If I create a future different than your outcome?
Example: let say I decide to create a future were you and I get married 10 years ago. You create a future where we do not get married. God creates a future, were we never met. It starts to cause a lot of problems.

Now, here is the real problem, just before I created my future as you say, whether in the past or now, did God know? If so, why? If God saw I would make a lot of mistakes and finally end up in Hell, why would even create me in the first place? Did God decide what I would create, If not, then he does not know, what does not exist? If yes, then how can I decide? Do you see the problem?
The future does not exist, therefore it is unknown, it does not mean God is not All knowing, or that he cannot plan ahead of time. It does not mean God cannot effect the future. Man can effect the future by his deeds, we start wars, build dams, and on and on.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but NOW is my kingdom not FROM HENCE. (emphases added)

With free will comes power, thus responsibly. If everything, every action was for planned as you say, then man has no power, and if no power then no free will.
If as you say, I created it the future, then why would some men including me create a future with bad things in it, and why would any man create a future with himself in hell?
But, when God does not know the future, which does not exist, we can cause Him joy or sadness, he can Love us for our good deeds. It is a very real relationship.
Please do not feel you must answer every point raised, they were placed only to show my point. Again thank you for your discussion on this matter.



posted on Mar, 29 2005 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by Balaams donkey
So, Somewhere, we meet again, eh?

Alas, you attack me, in revenge for your fatal wounds from our last encounter.
Thank you for the laughter. When one finds it necessary to be their own cheerleader and stroke their own ego, it is because they lack credibility in the eyes of others. It was a very wise decision that requires defendants to be judged by judge and jury.

As you take yet another quixotic dash toward the proverbial windmill;

God did not rob man, of eternal flesh, but man brought death by sin. It is you that remain ignorant of scriptures, old, and new. For, if you study the old, you will surly embrace the new.
And you are a prime example of that conundrum.

Decide which it is that surely die means to die right away, die later, the soul to die, both flesh and soul to die? You are still batting zero when it comes to grasping a concept.


Your words are empty, as when would you ever accept the teaching of any Christian? If you will, name them?
Not ever! I have no intention to follow such an insane and muddled doctrine and allow myself to become a pawn to a twisted, bent and totally pagan concept. Otherwise I too would find myself bereft of critcal thinking and unable to understand what I read.



posted on Mar, 29 2005 @ 10:30 PM
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Okay. I will try to explain this again.

1. God did not create your future, you did.
2. You were created because your parents decided to have sex because they were born with a freewill.
3. Even if God decided to give you life, and knew you would sin and enter hell, perhaps it was so that you could create a baby with your wife, who would then go on to convert millions. But that is assuming God is controling everything, and than there would be no freewill, so this point should be sticken from the record.
4. If God is all Knowing and all powerful, you don't think he can see the future?
5. God knowing your future before it exists is not him controlling it, it is you controling it, he just knows the outcome.

I wish I knew an analogy so that I could show you what I mean better. But I will continue to try and rephrase it.

We agree that we have freewill therefore we agree that we choose our own actions, and God doesnt. What we don't agree on is that God knows what your actions are before you commit them, or before you were created, because he saw what you were going to choose. There is no fooling God, he knew it before hand, but he didn't interfer, necessarily. I don't know, I am having trouble explaining this I think. Maybe someone else can do a better job. Why would I fight with you? We both are Christians and believe the same things, we just have a discrepancy with God's power/ability. My only question to you is if God doesn't know our actions, how did he tell us what would happen in the apocalypse. What if we changed the path to it, and it never happened?



posted on Mar, 29 2005 @ 10:34 PM
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God KNOWS our future but He does NOT decide what we DO...

we choose (free will) what we do but He KNOWS our choices...

if He MAKES out future, then there would be NO free will...





posted on Mar, 30 2005 @ 03:04 AM
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Thank you God!
+

Ryanp5555


My only question to you is if God doesn't know our actions, how did he tell us what would happen in the apocalypse. What if we changed the path to it, and it never happened?


Ok, my brother,
You have asked the key question. This problem is no joke! Lots of people have debated and struggled with it, and as you saw the more you thought about, the less clear it became.
So, we have to create some ground work before we can proceed or you will not understand me.
Foreknowledge: God knows what he is going to do before he does it.
Foreordained: God can command things, to happen, that he planed. Just as you do. You know you are going to make a cup of coffee, but your fore think, where he foreordains, meaning it will happen, just as he plans. You could have a problem, with your coffee, he won't
So, all men are foreordained to be created, when man and woman have intercourse, God can decide to allow a child, of his choosing. Remember, how so many women of the Bible were barren, because God did not allow a child to be formed. Childbearing is in God's hands not mans.
1 Samuel 1:5 But unto Hannah he gave a worthy portion; for he loved Hannah: but the LORD had shut up her womb.

Simplified: Plan and Command. Total power of God.
Next the end times, Lets use the flood, God knew he would flood the earth, He planned it.

Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

He commanded it when it was time, he shortened the time he allowed for man to repent, when he saw no one was going to get on the Ark, but Noah and his family. He has power, why would he wait if he knew no one would repent? He, wanted them to, but they did not. He end times will be just like the flood, but instead of water it will be Grace, and it will burn all those who hate God, just as light burns the eyes of creatures the live in darkness, but they will not be able to repent.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God WAITED in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

God hoped more would join Noah, for he wanted no one to descend into Hell.
Very little is in our power, the Lord moves in his ways whether we like it or not, He is Lord. The one thing that is in our power is our choice, agreement or disagreement. He gave us this one power, to choose, therefore no one knows our choices till we get there. Having said that, it is also important to know that God controls many of the choices we have to make in life. He also knows our hearts better than we do and knows what choices we will make most of the time. He know our desires, as he has said he put them there. So we are talking about a very small thing for God, and really big thing for us.

Mark 10:17-23 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? … Thou knowest the commandments, ... And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions. And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

This passage shows how the Lord wished him to follow him, how he loved him, he even told him what to do. But, he (the man) chose things of the earth. If this choice was not available at that moment then why did the supposed, future telling God, say anything to him, as he already knew. The Bible, says the man, was grieved because of his possessions. Jesus knew he would be troubled over this, so he loves him to give him strength.
Now to finish, God knows all, God knows the future mean what he will command, and even the end results of his creations, he know the state of man, his limits, his directions, he knows man cannot do good with out Him. The only thing he does not always know is our choices, though he knows most of them, so we are talking about a very fine point you and I. For it is a foul thing to say, He does not know the future, in terms of man desires, and the condition of man. Therefore, when it is said the future is not created, meaning only, mans choices. For it would be true that God in his wisdom has a plan for me and you that he will help us along with, but not force.

All of that for the first part of your question, the second part is easy. The end times will happen, the only question is who is in heaven and who is in heaven. It will happen as God foreknows and has foreordained, our choice matter not, in this regard.



posted on Mar, 30 2005 @ 08:29 AM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
And since you want to quote Isaiah do it properly: I, even I am the Lord, and beside me there is no saviour.

Your Jesus is out!




The catholic church is not the true church of today and certainly not how christianity started out.

Until you know Jesus is God, you will not understand that verse.



posted on Mar, 30 2005 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
And since you want to quote Isaiah do it properly: I, even I am the Lord, and beside me there is no saviour.

Your Jesus is out!



The catholic church is not the true church of today and certainly not how christianity started out.
Your statement is three fold in what true church could mean. Was it the true church as in the first? No, it was not. Was it because it was the first label given to a conglomeration of churches? Yes. Is there a true church? No. and this is why:


Until you know Jesus is God, you will not understand that verse.
Until you understand that the God of the Bible unequivocally stated numerous times that there is no saviour but him, and can come to terms with the fact that men had to find a way to place another man on equal footing with that God so as to get around the declaration of "no other saviour," then you will not understand the meaning of that verse. L

Let me make my position clear once more. Neither Jesus nor the god in The Bible is the true god. They are representations by man who spun their myths and legends in the name of their gods myths passed on through the ages until people lost sight of truth and accepted fiction as reality. The Egyptians thought their gods were real, as did the Greeks and Romans, all coming from myths and all accepted for up to thousands of years as fact.

If millions of people lived their lives and went to their graves believing in all those gods and the tales spun around them, what makes you think your god which you glean from a book is actually real? The answer would be exactly what an Egyptian, Greek or Roman would have given; you just either know it to be so or you have faith it is so.

Then again, it is the Egyptian, Greco-Roman Gods you believe in to this day, their story was just reshaped several times and morphed into what you worship today.



posted on Mar, 31 2005 @ 04:06 AM
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somewhere


Let me make my position clear once more. Neither Jesus nor the god in The Bible is the true god. They are representations by man who spun their myths and legends in the name of their gods myths passed on through the ages until people lost sight of truth and accepted fiction as reality. The Egyptians thought their gods were real, as did the Greeks and Romans, all coming from myths and all accepted for up to thousands of years as fact.


This is the first time I have even seen your position, somewhere. It is still not clear, are you saying that there is not God? Or, that none of the gods you mentioned are real gods, and their is some god that is real, but you have failed to tell us? Please tell me clearly. No God at all, or we got the wrong god, if so whom do you say is the real god?

Also, I agree with dbryant, that if you do not believe in the God of the Bible it seems foolish for you to discuss it. Why do you even care? I'm mean what if I wanted to get a rock, tree, cow or big steel pipe and worship it every morning, and some of my friends thought that was a good idea also. What do you care?



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 12:45 AM
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Originally posted by Balaams donkey

This is the first time I have even seen your position, somewhere.
The quote should be; he who has eyes let him see.


It is still not clear, are you saying that there is not God?
Exercise your mind while searching through my posts.


Also, I agree with dbryant, that if you do not believe in the God of the Bible it seems foolish for you to discuss it.
This then solidifies even more my position given your zero count.



Why do you even care?
Why do Christians care? Answer that and think about your question to me.


I'm mean what if I wanted to get a rock, tree, cow or big steel pipe and worship it every morning, and some of my friends thought that was a good idea also. What do you care?
That you might worship a cow, tree or steel pipe? I don't unless you can find the answer to and somehow tie it into the previous question and answer.



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 05:25 AM
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Good Grief, somewhere,

Your answers are getting worse not better, I tried being nice to you and fall back on personal attacks. I set my trap and you fell for it, faint retreat and your line broke.

Ok, it is clear that you are scared to death of me, so scared you cannot state your beliefs as you know that they are incorrect and you do not have a solid position on anything, therefore to justify your yourself, you attack others, telling everyone how smart you are, well? Where is the beef buddy?

You have been asked many simple questions and you run so fast you leave feathers behind.

So, is there a God or not?

Now you did not ever answer my questions before, so I will guess you will run into the open fields of declamations of how smart you are and you are so great, that you are simply above anybody’s questioning. What you are really saying is your position is weak.
This is a real easy question, either two letters or three. Let’s see if you can climb the man pole and stand your ground.

Is there a God? Yes or no?



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by Balaams donkey
Good Grief, somewhere,

Your answers are getting worse not better, I tried being nice to you and fall back on personal attacks. I set my trap and you fell for it, faint retreat and your line broke.

Ok, it is clear that you are scared to death of me, so scared you cannot state your beliefs as you know that they are incorrect and you do not have a solid position on anything, therefore to justify your yourself, you attack others, telling everyone how smart you are, well? Where is the beef buddy?

You have been asked many simple questions and you run so fast you leave feathers behind.

So, is there a God or not?

Now you did not ever answer my questions before, so I will guess you will run into the open fields of declamations of how smart you are and you are so great, that you are simply above anybody’s questioning. What you are really saying is your position is weak.
This is a real easy question, either two letters or three. Let’s see if you can climb the man pole and stand your ground.

Is there a God? Yes or no?
You know what I have come to understand is to be the stated keyboard answer from now on, as it obviously is the only acceptable and readily understandable response?

Praise Jesus and woe to the sinners.

Now if you will excuse me, I have a lot of Jesus praying to catch up on before the world ends on dec. 21, 2012. and a whole lot of intelligent thought of my own I have to mute.

[edit on 4/2/05 by SomewhereinBetween]



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 08:20 PM
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Please People,
Stop fighting each other, or is this a competition on words and quotations?We aren't here to battle this is just as bad as any war faught with guns.
Okay I'm just one of the simple minded( out of choise ) .
God seeks unity, God seeks peace, God seeks unconditionel love. God is compassion.
We have much more greater battles to tend. Do we love our neighbor(mine is a freak) do I? NO. But that is what I am called to do! Am I humble, meak,kind. No, I am just a little fearful being.
God doesn't care who killed who when we still fear our next door nieghbors. WE do we judge and judge and judge and forget to grant each other peace.
I know God will gaurd me.
WrenLittle
:bash:



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 09:32 PM
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Somewhere,

It is not necessary for our discussion, for you to blindly follow someone’s else’s dogma, but you attack mine senselessly, and give no reason for this. To attack me you must have valid grounds, I wish to know what that ground is? Why is what you say correct, surly you have a position, in which you hold to, otherwise your attacks are baseless. If my faith is in error there must be a reason?

You remain elusive, and hidden, you will not come out of the shadows into the light of truth, which is where all men should stand. Your tactic of false submission will work on others, but not me. You will see that the only Truth is in God, Jesus Christ. You will find that the belief which you attack, is your own home. You have been lied to, about the realities of God, by many Christians, and many Atheists. That is over, by me if you are man enough, you will see how Christ, reason, and freewill, are united. That Christ is the source of Reason which you desire. Attack me with any and all arguments that you can find, then you will see the strength of Christ.
Christ give us Reason, where heretics have faith,- St. Jerome.
I will be merciless, in my attack of the darkness that clouds your mind, my net of reason will drag you from the depths of dualism.

You have not answered the question, Is there a God?

Wren, I will never give the devil one inch, I will fight him completely, this is the way of the Christian. He has the right to no one! Not somewhere, or anyone else. He will not steal my brothers and sisters into Hell, he will be destroyed in the Light of Christ, God!



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by Balaams donkey
Somewhere,

It is not necessary for our discussion, for you to blindly follow someone’s else’s dogma, but you attack mine senselessly, and give no reason for this.
You know burro, from the very first interaction we had you have been trying to tell me how stupid I am. So now I acquiesce and bow to you and you are still bending your hind legs to void on me, what is up with that, and what am I to do to please you?


To attack me you must have valid grounds, I wish to know what that ground is? Why is what you say correct, surly you have a position, in which you hold to, otherwise your attacks are baseless. If my faith is in error there must be a reason?
Right then! I have a really bad memory and won't bother to check to see who attacked whom first, but because you are in the mode, please feel free to tell me how much more of a degenerate and what a lowlife I am. I ain't got no position donkey, because if you can't understand it then it can't be a position. You da donkey!


You remain elusive, and hidden, you will not come out of the shadows into the light of truth, which is where all men should stand.
Maybe that's my problem eh? I am not a man.


Your tactic of false submission will work on others, but not me.
Beat me some more donkey until you feel you have imparted your wisdom.


You will see that the only Truth is in God, Jesus Christ.
Praise Jesus, thought I said that already?


You will find that the belief which you attack, is your own home.
I have 7 years to change my ways and follow yours to be saved, since I have no faith in me, I hope you have faith in yourself as well as absolute certainty that Jesus is the way which you will be teaching me, because I sure as heck would be haunting you in hell if you lead us both there.


You have been lied to, about the realities of God, by many Christians, and many Atheists.
Gosh, I really didn't realize that genesis; exodus; leviticus; numbers; deuteronomy; and such, along with the twenty or so books I have on ancient texts from Egypt, Nag Hammadi and Qunram, and the compilation of church writings from the second century to 9:37est of today, nor the plethora of books I have on archaeological finds which do not espouse a belief were lying to me. I definitely learned something today...Moses lied! So now I am reallly confused donkey, if I can't believe at least The Bible, praise Jesus, what am I supposed to believe? Can you maybe in 20 words or less pronounce the edict for my guidance? Thank you and much obliged. Praise Jesus, woe be to the sinners!


That is over, by me if you are man enough,
That excludes me my friend, gonads I do not have, and obviously they are essential to knowledge. That means that the rest of your divine screed requires no response.



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 04:27 AM
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Hi Somewhere,

It is good to see you have converted,...me thinks, thou does protest to little?
But, to see your humorous side most enjoyable, I was doubtful of such in ye?

Now, I beg thee, what is the meaning of the 7 seven years, or 2012 which you toss about as bait for your unsuspecting pray? For I know thee to be the wolf, so why does thou tickleth mine senses? For, I will not quickly forget the point which you evade, as thou it was sword, does God exist? I do smell your fear. So, consider your paradoxical trap sprung, as it will not hold, any longer than the sky holds the clouds. We will see how quickly you turn from sheep to wolf.



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 04:01 PM
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Originally posted by Balaams donkey
Hi Somewhere,

It is good to see you have converted,...me thinks, thou does protest to little?
Well since you said that you know everything, and you told me that Moses lied to all of us, it's no wonder you can see I converted, that didn't take you long to notice, that is how astute you are. Good job!


But, to see your humorous side most enjoyable, I was doubtful of such in ye?
I didn't know I was being humourous. Love the Biblical terminology too, "ye and thee" I like that, mind if I use them?


Now, I beg thee, what is the meaning of the 7 seven years, or 2012 which you toss about as bait for your unsuspecting pray?
What is an unsuspecting pray, and what bait are ye talking about? Ye doth not knowest of the 7 years? Ye claim to know the Bible from back to front and inside out, so me thinks ye pulleth mine chain, for ye surely doth know of the Book of Revelation. As for the 2012, well, once more since you claim ye knoweth everything, it stands to reason then that ye have read about the Mayan calendar on these here forums and therefore ye knowest what it is, so me thinks once more thou dost pulleth mine chain.


For I know thee to be the wolf, so why does thou tickleth mine senses?
Ye do? When didst we meet that thou sawest mine four legs and canine form? Are ye just naturally opposing to or sceptical of everything that ye seeth? Ye said ye were going to teach me logic, but I'm confused by this logic, couldst thou please explain?



For, I will not quickly forget the point which you evade, as thou it was sword, does God exist?
I evaded that? are ye sure? I sayest that ye are blind and foolish if that is what ye thinks.


I do smell your fear.
And here ye sayeth I am a wolf and it is ye who hath the keen sense of smell. I hath my nose to the monitor and cannot smell anything but synthetic material, is that what fear smells like? Maybe ye are just suffering from paranoid delusions, ye will get over it, I will pray for it to be so for you.


So, consider your paradoxical trap sprung, as it will not hold, any longer than the sky holds the clouds. We will see how quickly you turn from sheep to wolf.
Never satisfied are ye? So far these are some of the things ye have accused me of: liar: fraud: idiot: male: your buddy: wolf: evader: afraid: and a trapper.

You have some insecurity issues and one heck of an inferiority complex when it comes to me it seems, so sorry if I intimidate you donkey, my prayers are on their way to Jesus for you. Praise Jesus!



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 04:06 PM
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i am glad this thread is still going...

i am also glad that this thread has a heated debate going...

ENJOY!!!





posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 06:55 PM
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I have said alot of things to upset alot of people in the short time I have been here........

If God does exist though, and he has killed millions (which I do not deny) Then isn;t it his right as supreme creator to do as he pleases?

Who the F@*K are you and I to question his means?

I mean he took care of existence yeah? Sustinance yeah? Survival yeah? ?Why is it that you question his means everytime you find them unpleasant?

If he does exist he is probably a prick that makes me look like Karol is a saint (pun fully intended)



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