christians and catholics please read...your God has killed millions...

Originally posted by Balaams donkey
God does not know what we will do,

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one and ask God face to face someday.

dbrandt

Quoting something from a catholic of the 4th century really doesn't mean anything to me

First St. Basil is not some Catholic, he is Eastern Orthodox.
Second, He nor I, said this from authority, but reason. He gave you reason, logic for the basis of free will. He did not say "you have free will because, I said so!" He was quoted because he speaks in a Christian context.

Lastly, if you do not agree, then you must come to the conclusion, that God knows, and therefore is the author of your sin. Sin, mean to separate from God. This, logic forces you into the position of being a puppet, and not loved.

Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
There is not a problem with saying God does not know what you are going to do, all of the time, it does not destroy God, anymore than it destroy you, if you do not know what you are going to do in the future.
Let me show you, if you will.
I could say with words, you do not know your future tomorrow or next year. You will agree. Since this is true, lets reduce it to the next second, then even further, until I can say you never know what you are doing! Since you do not know what you are doing in the next second and that time has past, this means when that second happened you did not know what you were doing. Thus, you never know what you are doing, you have no mind. That is all logical, hogwash! This, logical hogwash is what the Atheists are using to destroy the faith of Christians. Please do not let them force you into this position. Because, when you do, you may not fall, but others will. Christ gives us reason.

dbrandt

Quoting something from a catholic of the 4th century really doesn't mean anything to me.

One last thought, when you say "what that person says.." means nothing to you. Remember all men are creations of God. But, also, if they do not have the right to speak, then by what right do you speak?

Edit: insert the word (not)

[edit on 28-3-2005 by Balaams donkey]

Originally posted by Balaams donkey


Lastly, if you do not agree, then you must come to the conclusion, that God knows, and therefore is the author of your sin.

Adam and Eve chose to sin and we still do today. God is not the author of confusion.

And how do you get from my words "Basil's words mean nothing to me" that I mean he doesn't have a right to speak. It means I know the wrong view of the gospel the catholic church has and am wary of what someone associated with them says.

God MUST know our intentions and what choices we choose in life before WE choose them...

otherwise, how can Hw judge us when we die???

if i kill a robber, this is GOOD because i was protecting my family...

God MUST know my intentions (protecting my family) otherwise, this would be a SIN...

dbrandt

And how do you get from my words "Basil's words mean nothing to me" that I mean he doesn't have a right to speak. It means I know the wrong view of the gospel the catholic church has and am wary of what someone associated with them says.

Good reply,
However, you said, "...doesn't mean anything to me.,” not, "you are wary." We’ll agree that you misspoke. As, your sentence declares, in an absolute sense, when it contained the word, “anything”.

St. Basil is not Roman Catholic. He is Eastern Orthodox which holds the Roman Catholic church as heretics, which is why the Crusades killed so many Orthodox.

Next, you are right to be wary of anybody's thoughts, even your own. How can you hold your own thought's to be more sound, that his? I am not saying they are not, but we must always be careful of what we accept or refuse. Who can say their own thoughts, have never misled them? This is why man appeals to a higher authority, then himself for validation and correction, such as the Bible, reason, or God.
Now, having said all that, let us cease from fighting each other for now and defeat the foolishness of the Atheists, agreed my friend?

For in their mindlessness attack on all that is good, they have foolishly said, that life (God) is death(loss of life). Let us ask them how can this be so? Have they not given properties to death that do not exist, as death is the absence of life and life is God?
Answer that oh, mad and mindless hater of God.

It is hard to know someone's tone by reading, so I certainly hope that you view this as discussion and not fighting, because I don't think you or I were fighting. I like things expressed very plainly, and alot of things I read were expressed in a way that was not plain to me. Not that this is anybodies fault ,just different people and how they operate. So it's possible that I don't quite understand your view because of this. So agreed let's move on.

God MUST know our intentions and what choices we choose in life before WE choose them...

Of course, when they exist. He also knows our weakness, what we cannot resist without his help. God knows everything, but not everything exists. Your choice to sin next year is not predetermined already, it will happen when you get there, the choice will be yours. Your death does not exist, or else you would be dead. However, your death is foreknown and preordained, you will die. Just as was your birth, God planed you before he created you.
The fighter’s of God, are trying to say, that because my future sin, exists, it is not my fault, therefore I cannot be judged, and furthermore every sin I commit is a command of God. Such lies!

St. John of Damascus: book II, chapter 29
Concerning Prescience and Predestination.
We ought to understand(2) that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things(3). For He knows beforehand those things that are in our power, but He does not predetermine them. For it is not His will that there should be wickedness nor does He choose to compel virtue. So that predetermination is the work of the divine command based on fore-knowledge(4). But on the other hand God predetermines those things which are not within our power in accordance with His prescience. For already God in His prescience has prejudged all things in accordance with His goodness and justice.

The problem is three fold not singular, like the mindless Atheists try and teach mindful Christians.

Originally posted by Balaams donkeyOk, class lets open our Bible’s to:

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely DIE....

When people offer verses such as this to provide an interpretation to fit their cause, is one of my pet peeves. The scribes claim God said they would surely die if they eat of the tree, and since they lived on to die later it is claimed that this meant they will eventually die. So why exactly is this very phrase different in these scenarios?

----------They did not die they lived for another 670 years plus.

II Kings 1:4 Now therefore thus saith the LORD, Thou shalt not come down from that bed on which thou art gone up, but shalt surely die. And Elijah departed.

-------Whereas he surely did die.

Ezekiel 3:18:19 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

And just for fun:
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Ezekiel is a very good book with which Christians should become acquainted, for it seems that God speaks not of the flesh living or dying, but the soul.

The conundrum for Christians then, is that God, after he decided to rob man of eternal flesh, decided later on to grant eternal life or death to their souls. This is the idiocy behind Christian doctrine of salvation for it suggests:

-That eternal life was initially granted to the flesh;
-That the soul was a later creation to keep man beguiled;
That the flesh and soul combination if initially intertwined, was a greater gift than just flesh alone or soul alone;
-That soul is also subject to death not eternal damnation;
-That the reality of it is Christians have fallen for a 2,000 year old false doctrine of what death is.

Where the fact is that the scribes had to find some reason why humans ceased to live and breathe.

Attend class regularly to sit and learn you are not near ready for the role of teacher.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Ezekiel is a very good book with which Christians should become acquainted, for it seems that God speaks not of the flesh living or dying, but the soul.

A person's physical body can die, our spirit is born dead. Adam and Eve's spirit died when they took of the fruit and ate. The death of a soul is referring to seperation from God.

So, Somewhere, we meet again, eh?

I would have thought you, surly would have be able to weigh in heavily, on this issue. God equals death. Surly, you can offer some thing wise to say? For, in this question, we should be on the same side. Alas, you attack me, in revenge for your fatal wounds from our last encounter. You quickly lash out against Christians, rather then the issue deep at hand. You have spoken quite well, in the case of Ezekiel, a great and might prophet of the Lord. For if you could could show all here, the wisdom of the Old Testment, then, so many questions whould be put to rest.
Please start with the question, at hand, then move on the question of the Christians

The conundrum for Christians then, is that God, after he decided to rob man of eternal flesh, decided later on to grant eternal life or death to their souls. This is the idiocy behind Christian doctrine of salvation for it suggests:

God did not rob man, of eternal flesh, but man brought death by sin. It is you that remain ignorant of scriptures, old, and new. For, if you study the old, you will surly embrace the new.

Attend class regularly to sit and learn you are not near ready for the role of teacher.

Your words are empty, as when would you ever accept the teaching of any Christian? If you will, name them?

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Your question is posed based on the presumption that your faith and belief is the only truth. That mindset immediately launches your blockade of any thoughts contrary to what you hold to be sole truth.

Therefore, your argument is rendered moot on all counts.

I have said this before and I'll say it again. Why would I waste my time and yours by making posts I don't believe. Some people probably get a kick out of telling lies, I do not. Of course I believe what I post is the truth.

To do exactly what you are taught to do, try and initiate the masses with baseless theories and false doctrine. There is strength in numbers no? You certainly have been indoctrinated, for as much as you wish to post what you truly believe, it is absolutely one-sided and with purpose that you do not wish to be refuted or to even entertain the case against your doctrine.

My argument is moot to you. That's the whole thing, Adam and Eve had a choice to make also. Do we trust and believe what God has said or do we go our own way. You have made a choice too, to not believe what the Bible has said. That is your right to do, because as we all know God has given us free will in our choice to believe Him or not.

On the contrary, Adam and Eve are fictional characters, this is how myth becomes legend and legend becomes presumptive fact. We see this every day with the likes of Atlantean theories; emerald tablets of Thoth; king Arthur; Aliens; NWO; Reptilians, planet Niburu, etc. etc. All spawned from tall tales, and all spreading throughout the masses over time so that we begin to lose sight of reading the text and understanding how fragile they really are, instead, opting to just believe.

You can trust and believe that the only God is the god represented in the good book, I do not, for I can find far too many holes within same, as well as determine that the god conatined within that book undergoes a transformation throughout the centuries as man's knowledge progresses.

No sir! My God is in need of no mortal to make his case for him, and he certainly does not need mortals to do his killing for him if that were his desire, and he definitely does not need to appoint some men to preach his truth to other men and women for that means he is class conscious.

Understand this dbrandt, as long as I live and breathe and I see doctrine such as yours being advanced, I will challenge same. If your belief is strong, your faith real and your god also, then you will have no need to rebut with mundane statements such as: "Why would I waste my time and yours by making posts I don't believe. " for such is a silent admission that answers fail you.

Do you tell lies? Yes! everytime you post that Jesus is the salvation and or is God. See how it works?



[edit on 3/28/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Originally posted by dbrandt
Quoting something from a catholic of the 4th century really doesn't mean anything to me. The catholic church has perverted the gospel. I'm a saint too and so is every other christian dead or alive.

Well it should mean something to you for that is the root of all Christianity. The holy Roman church was at one time united with your own, so much so they declared that everything they say and do was divine in nature, that every man jack on their team was by divine appointment. Such is the farce; the great lie! For 1800 years they argued fought, split, reconciled, declared heresies, reversed heresies, divorced, kissed and made up. If this is divine wisdom then what on earth kind of idiot god rules you? Like it or not, your past made you cohesive with Catholic doctrine under that divine blessing deal. If you had it wrong then, chances are you certainly have it wrong now.

As for freewill, where does God mention this exactly? And FYI, Paul is not god, he was just another murderer suffering delusions of grandeur.

And since you want to quote Isaiah do it properly: I, even I am the Lord, and beside me there is no saviour.

Your Jesus is out!

or maybe no one took the time to read my reply..
do people honestly come on here to read only what they write? I read EVERY reply, it would be denying ignorance to not brush aside any opinion. All I ever see is people talking about the same recycled theories... and they all just brush aside any new type of thinking labelling it as communist or some "ist" of another sort... Wouldn't it all suck to find out you're the creation of the person you hate so much (Satan) .. and that God has actually had nothing but patience and compassion....

dnero6911,

I read what you wrote. Really. I think, what you wrote is not true. Please do not let this hurt your feelings, honestly. Do you think, my writing is true.
Personally, I do not think we need any new theories. I believe the first design of God, is better than any ideas of man. You were polite enough, just to present your view, without directly attacking anybody. So, I left it alone. I would be quite happy to discuss it with you. If you want. Where is posted. I’ll read it completely and comment on it, as fairly as possible.

Hurt my feelings? .. no ... but it's on the first page of this thread...

Originally posted by Balaams donkey
dnero6911,

I read what you wrote. Really. I think, what you wrote is not true. Please do not let this hurt your feelings, honestly. Do you think, my writing is true.
Personally, I do not think we need any new theories. I believe the first design of God, is better than any ideas of man. You were polite enough, just to present your view, without directly attacking anybody. So, I left it alone. I would be quite happy to discuss it with you. If you want. Where is posted. I’ll read it completely and comment on it, as fairly as possible.

Hello All,
A simple tale:
Years ago my friend and I had an on going debate about Jesus and Christianity. And as usual I recieved the same accusation." Christians have murdered in the name of God and Christ, how can you believe in such a God" ????
My reply(something like this)
"If people began to commit genocide in Your name, without your consent would that change who you are".?????
We never mentioned it again.
God is God.
Man is a self dedicated being whom will create a path to justify his own "self invented"( stupid word) purpose of survival.
I think
I am just a simple being but I KNOW God Loves US, I can't tell you how God will touch your lives.
Oh, how long will this retchid strife continue, 100 years?, when will we stop accusing and start uniting.
Life Bless
WrenLittle

This is it also..

GOD (Thee God Respondsible for US) ..
Created his wife,
they in turn together made the first begotten son (begotten: from the father)
he is Jesus... (or known as Jesus to us) ..
Then GODs Wife created ANOTHER son, without the permission of her counterpart (GOD) ... therefore not begotten, so not from the father...
she was ashamed and cast him aside... he took off and created for himself many aeons with a ball of luminous fire (sun) ... after which he created the authorities, and they made angels and all that fun stuff, ... then because GODs wife was so ashamed and wept, GOD saw this, and sent the holy spirit to her after he placed her in the 9th AEON, ( he put her there so she would correct her defiency) ... he came to her and showed himself to her in the form of the first perfect being (a human body) ... and he also spoke to her, although the second son thought there was only himself and his mother in existance, so when GOD spoke, the second son thought it was his mother.
and the second son seen the image of the first perfect being in the water, and said to the authorities Come, Let us make man in the image of the first perfect being.... and the second son appointed each authority to create each seperate part of the human body ...

now while all this was going on, the mother (GODs WIFE) was trying to find a way to steal the power which her son stole from her (the second son)
so after they created the body it lay there useless and lifeless....
soooooooo GODs WIFE decided to trick the authorities into tricking the second son into breathing the power which he stole into the face of the lifeless being... and boom the lifeless being woke up ... and all the authorities and the second son were angry because they had been tricked because the man they created was more intelligent than them and were angry that he could think better than them....

so then they devised a plan to try and steal back the power which the second son blew into the body....
and they put ADAM to sleep.... and created the female out of the power that was in him, not out of his rib-bone...
and GODs WIFE seen what they were trying to do, so she sent herself down into EVE
and when ADAM awoke he saw the power laying next to him and awoke "mentally" type of thing..
Than ... GOD having mercy on us sent his first begotten son to us... in the form of an eagle on the "tree" ...... and enlightened us.... we then noticed our nakedness and felt shame towards the second son who told us not to touch the "tree" (not to think for yourself... i.e. right and wrong) ... and once we noticed our nakedness he knew we had touched that "tree" and he was furious .... but because we had shame and repented we found favor in GOD's eyes, because we realized our fault (which the second son still has not done)
and the second son got angry cast us out of his paradise, and the paradise of his authorities and angels... into the valley of the shadow of death, where we currently are... and then the second son and his authorities ONE more time, tried to steal the power and devised a plan to transform into the likeness of a human, and they slept with EVE and created duplicates of the original bodies... and created sin by doing so...

the second son never met his father, never seen the true heaven....
he created this place in ignorance and therefore is a shadow of the place we are truely from ..

Hope you took the time to read this ... it is rather important .. as its been well hidden .. it stinks of rationale, well when dealing with the unknown that is..

donkey, knowing all is different from controlling all. Yes God knows the choices you make BEFORE you are even created, but he didn't force you to make them, you chose them, all he did was know you would choose them. It is like a psychic seeing the future and saying you are going to do this and you end up doing it. Does that mean the psychic controlled you to do it? no. The psychic just saw the chain of events that would lead you to it, that you happened to choose. Again knowing is different from forcing.

Ryanp5555

...knows the choices you make BEFORE you are even created....

Well, your understanding, you will have to then admit that the future is created and waiting for us to enter. That life is programmed movie and you are but a pawn, watching it.
You said "knows your choices" if so, then how could I choose otherwise, where is my freewill. If my choices have already been decided, then how can I choose? If they are not decided, then they do not exist, if they do not exist, than how God know them?