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christians and catholics please read...your God has killed millions...

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posted on Mar, 27 2005 @ 10:25 PM
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okay...

i hate to do this but:

God created man and knew that we WOULD fall to sin right (because He knows everything)???

then why make the human race if He KNEW that He WOULD have to kill ALL of us (except for some)???

its like if i created robots and i KNEW that they would kill eachother and do bad things and thus, i would have to destroy them soon after...

why would i waste my time creating these robots if i would justs destroy them later???

God KNEW that We would fall to sin, He KNEW He would have to destroy us so why make us???

because He wants to give us a chance to go to Heaven...

BUT He created us, then WIPED OUT MILLIONS (the great flood) except for noah and some others and animals...

He wanted to "start from scratch" or get a "do-over" (like in a game)???

does God REALLY know what He is doing???

He made us, killed us, created us again (noah starting civilization again) and now He is going to kill us again (the end of the world)...

God IS doing a lot of "do-over" moves...

these are just some points to think about...

i would like to thank ALL who have posted in this thread because it is a GREAT "debate" on this easter sunday






posted on Mar, 27 2005 @ 10:31 PM
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another thing to think about:

God killed millions (it could be for a "good" reason or for the "greater good" BUT this is STILL killing AKA murder) and then Jesus and many other preachers talk of respecting your brother and promoting peace and love...

so, God (the father) kills and then Jesus (the son) talks of love and peace...

i guess "like father like son" didn't apply here


or maybe, Jesus knew His father's mistakes (uhh ohh God isn't perfect) and wanted to help humanity because of His father's mistakes by telling them of love and peace...





posted on Mar, 27 2005 @ 11:56 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandtDo you realize what the tribulation period is?
Your question is posed based on the presumption that your faith and belief is the only truth. That mindset immediately launches your blockade of any thoughts contrary to what you hold to be sole truth. Having said that I will answer your question. Yes I know what it is, but I dismiss it in its entirety as nonsense and the whimsical desires of a person or persons who was merely expressing a fanciful desire to see the end of the Roman empire circa 70ACE. The better question is, when will you come to understand what it is?


Man has been trying to build a world without God since the Tower of Babel. God confused the languages dispersed the people and divided the continents. Now here we are again and we can be anywhere in the world in a few hours and actually with the internet we can be anywhere in a few seconds. Man has not forgotten the goal of building a world without God.
This next position of yours furthers your notion that your belief is the only correct belief, where I say to you that the Bible is Egyptian mythology rewritten by the one-God believing sect and in such a fashion to distance themselves from their real ancestry. The tower of Babel is a ridiculous story. For these archaic folks after the flood, assembled and supposedly tried to build a tower that reached to heaven where God became angry for some silly reason, disbanded them and confused their language lest they understand each other ever again. Well, he did not plan very well for I am certain the towers of today far exceed those of the ziggurats of 6,000 years ago, where even our space craft have not reached heaven much less our towers, and there is no spoken language today which we find confounding. Further, he did not divide the continents, the people of old had no idea what a conntinent was. As far as they were concerned, they could climb a hill and what they saw was all of the earth, and as time went by, 'all of the earth' was nothing more than all of the nations they knew.

Therefore, your argument is rendered moot on all counts.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 01:32 AM
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No, God killing man and you claiming it is immoral is just you saying God is equal to man when he clearly isn't. God is the only good, so he clearly has the right to say what is moral for us, and if we, as a creation, are being useless than what is the point of us living? A better example. We create robots to build cars. Instead of building cars most of them just stand there and do nothing. What do you do, you destroy them! Because they are not preforming their function, what they are designed to do, which is WORSHIP GOD which would mean you have lived life to it's fullest. Is it immoral for us to destroy robots who do not do their function? Absolutely not, so stop with the stupid claims that it is immoral for God to kill human beings, and the word kill can not be used when God does it, he takes away what he gave them.

Also, yes God knew man would fall into sin, that is part of the point of this whole thing. It isn't as if God forced man to fall into sin, he just knew we would, however we still chose it. It was so that later we could experience God's full love, it is what God wanted. And whatever God wants must be deemed moral as he is the "Ultimate Good."



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 02:33 AM
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Stop! Everybody slow down, and take a deepbeath.

Ok, class lets open our Bible’s to:

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely DIE.
Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall NOT surely DIE
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

So, we now see the Christian teaching very clearly, Death entered because of sin. Sin entered because of a lie. The lie came from the Devil.
It is not God, who caused death, but man, when he listened to the Devil, ignorantly. The Devil did this knowingly, to kill man. “Ye shall not surely die”

Now, if God knew man was going to do this, and die then why start in the first place? God did not know what Adams choice would be. All knowing does not mean, all controlling also. Nor, it is nessary for the source of life to be all knowing, this is a secondary question.

Let turn to:
Genesis 2:19
And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to SEE what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

We see that God, did not know what Adam would call every living creature. Now this is what the text says. If you, do not like it, too bad. Go melt down some gold and make a cow, and worship it instead. You have free will to hate and kill, or to love it is your choice.

Now, God means the source of life, and death mean absence of the source of life, so how can you blame life for death? That is the question!



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 06:46 AM
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Originally posted by Ryanp5555
Is it evil for God to kill something he created? Does he not kill us all at some point in time? Your point is moot, death is natural, he decides when someone dies. He gave it, he has the right to take it away.

Exactly. To say that God killed millions .... well ... he CREATED
billions upon billions upon billions of us. In the end, he takes
everyone's life. So he has really 'killed' billions upon billions
upon billions after he created them.

I use the term 'killed' , but in reality it is just a change
of where our souls are.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 06:59 AM
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Originally posted by they see ALL
FlyersFan... why are you talking like this to me???
christians and catholics are the same...
i didn't know this, calm down...
i went to mass because its my faith...
i, also, question my faith instead of following it blindly...


You said 'YOUR God has killed'. Your.
Not 'our'. YOUR. This implies that you
are not Christian. I asked why you were
at a Catholic mass if you were not Christian.

You didn't know Catholics are Christians?
You say that you are Catholic ... but you didn't
know Catholics are Christian??

You say that you are just questioning your faith
instead of blindly following it ... but you don't
even understand the basics, such as Catholics ARE
Christian? How can you question a faith that
you don't even understand the basics of?

If you are Catholic, I suggest that you get a
copy of the CHILDREN's catechism. I'm not saying
that to insult you. I'm saying that because the
CHILDREN's catechism is VERY easy to follow and
to understand. It gives the basics very well. After
the children catechism, get a copy of the adult
Catechism of the Catholic church and tell your priest
that you need a refresher course on being Catholic
and that you want to go to RCIA. That's the classes
that the adults go to prior to becoming Catholic.
They usually meet once a week on Sundays. You
can ask questions and be with others who are
questioning and asking about the Catholic faith.

If you have a lazy priest who says you can't go for
some strange reason ... switch Catholic churches.
There are plenty around. Church shop.

Hope that helps with your question. You will most
likely find the answers AT THE SOURCE ... at the
church who put the bible together ~ 300 A.D.
If after getting the answers to your questions you
decide you don't believe in what the Catholic
Church teaches .... there are plenty of other
Churches out there to explore.
Good luck on your quest.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 07:09 AM
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Originally posted by they see ALL
when i went to the easter vigil mass yestersay i noticed something...

i noticed that the God of christians and catholics has killed millions of people...

one of the gospel readings was the story of noah and the great flood...

you all know this story...

the world was "evil" so God made a huge flood and killed everyone except noah and some animals...

did God have to kill EVERYONE in the world (except for noah and some others)???

another example of God killing many is the story of sodom and gomorrah...

the people living in these cities were "evil" so God killed EVERYONE in them and destroyed the cities...

then we heard the reading of abraham and his son...

God told abraham to kill his son as a holacaust to God...

even though it was only a test, it was still pretty harsh that God told abraham to kill his son...

then, in the reading of moses and the israelites, God killed Pharaoh's army in the red sea...

He could have sent an angel down to the army and the angel could have told the army that these people were the "choosen ones" and this would have stopped the chase...

but God decided to kill them...

so, God has killed MILLIONS of people...

and we call Him a "good" God???

so God kills MILLIONS and Jesus preaches about loving your neighbor???

what do YOU think about all of this???

please note that for this thread we are ASSUMING that the stories in the bible are 100 percent true...




Excellent post "they see ALL"


I always wanted to read something like that


some religious people don´t think about that, or dont wanna recognize it, they just ignore it, they redeemed the truth.

religious people are absent - bloody - minded, they are the perfect weapon to activate. Look at the news! the most war´s are religion war´s

religion is the opium of the people


[edit on 28-3-2005 by dacruz]



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 09:03 AM
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donkey...

great info...

i wasn't aware of this...

BUT doesn't God KNOW ALL and thus even the choices we make???

this is the way i was taught...

FlyersFan...

ok...

i knew that christians and catholics are the same BUT aren't they different branches or something???

they have some differences right???

this was the way i was taught...

also, i am not going to get the childrens book because i am in high school and we are reading the REAL one and i understand it...





posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 09:05 AM
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dacruz...

thanks for the niiic comment...

where is that line from???

it is from hemmingway correct???





posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 09:34 AM
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Why did God create man when He knew he would sin? God gave man free will, and wanted to allow man to make his own decisions, good or bad. Then came the snake, the tree, the eating of the fruit, the castoutedness..etc...



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 10:30 AM
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Originally posted by they see ALL
i knew that christians and catholics are the same BUT aren't
they different branches or something??? they have some
differences right???

also, i am not going to get the childrens book because i am in
high school and we are reading the REAL one and i understand it...


Glad you understand the adult catechism. Like I said, I wasn't
insulting you ... it has been my experience that many people -
both adult and child - LIKE the kids baltimore catechism because
it gets to the point quickly and easily. It is also 'real', just
written more simply.

Ref your 'christians and catholics are the same' - think of the
word Christian as an umbrella. Under it are Catholics, Pentacostals,
Lutherans, Church of Christ, Baptists ... etc.

Or better yet - being Catholic - this is how you are to look at it -
(according to the Catholic faith) -

CATHOLIC is the one true Church of Christ. The other churches
that are also Christian have some faith, but not the fullness of
faith. Look in your catechism about the four marks of the true
Christian faith. That will tell you the Catholic teaching about
the different churches under the Christian umbrella. Those
other churches which are also christian have our 'seperated
brethren' in them.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by they see ALL
where is that line from???

it is from hemmingway correct???


Err...no. Karl Marx said it. One of my favorite quotes.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 02:18 PM
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Originally posted by dreamlandmafia

Err...no. Karl Marx said it. One of my favorite quotes.


and it is from ernest hemingway...

try "snows of kilimanjaro and other stories"...

FlyersFan...

thanks for that...





posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 03:05 PM
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Originally posted by they see ALL
God created man and knew that we WOULD fall to sin right (because He knows everything)???



God knew we would fall, but the choice was mankind's to disobey God. That has to be grasped first.

Mankind got a physical death sentence, but we also have a soul that lives eternally and will one day be reunited with the body.

God provided for the fall of man in Jesus Christ, so yes most everyone will die physically, but we don't have to die the eternal death.

We live in a time when one can accept Christ and become a child of God and share in what God has to offer to the church. Not everyone can say this, others will be saved and enter eternity but not everyone is part of the church.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Your question is posed based on the presumption that your faith and belief is the only truth. That mindset immediately launches your blockade of any thoughts contrary to what you hold to be sole truth.

Therefore, your argument is rendered moot on all counts.


I have said this before and I'll say it again. Why would I waste my time and yours by making posts I don't believe. Some people probably get a kick out of telling lies, I do not. Of course I believe what I post is the truth.

My argument is moot to you. That's the whole thing, Adam and Eve had a choice to make also. Do we trust and believe what God has said or do we go our own way. You have made a choice too, to not believe what the Bible has said. That is your right to do, because as we all know God has given us free will in our choice to believe Him or not.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 03:20 PM
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Originally posted by Balaams donkey
God did not know what Adams choice would be.


That is not true. There are plenty of verses that tell us God knows everything. Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. God knows the end from the beginning.

[edit on 28-3-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 03:58 PM
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On Free will

St. Basil the Great, an exact exposition of the orthodox(right thinking) faith:
Book II, chaper 27 (excerpt)

1. Every one, then, who deliberates does so in the belief that the choice of what is to be done lies in his hands, that he may choose what seems best as the result of his deliberation, and having chosen may act upon it. And if this is so, free-will must necessarily be very closely related to reason. For either man is an irrational being, or, if he is rational, he is master of his acts and endowed with free-will. Hence also creatures without reason do not enjoy free-will: for nature leads them rather than they nature, and so they do not oppose the natural appetite, but as soon as their appetite longs after anything they rush headlong after it. But man, being rational, leads nature rather than nature him, and so when he desires aught he has the power to curb his appetite or to indulge it as he pleases. Hence also creatures devoid of reason are the subjects neither of praise nor blame, while man is the subject of both praise and blame(1).
2. Note also that the angels, being rational, are endowed with free-will, and, inasmuch as they are created, are liable to change. This in fact is made plain by the devil who, although made good by the Creator, became of his own free-will the inventor of evil, and by the powers who revolted with him(2), that is the demons, and by the other troops of angels who abode in goodness.

What St. Basil is saying is the fact that you are arguing, proves free will. If we have free will, then the choice in the Garden was mans.

Argument 1: Of course Adam would partake of the forbidden fruit, simply because it was forbidden.
False! Adam did not immediately run over to this tree and eat it. He named animals, was given a wife, and such. Further more, he only ate after, the woman told him to. Also, Eve had to be lied to by the Devil, before she would eat.

Argument 2: God knew Adam would eat the fruit and fall.
False! God did not know this. Because it had not happened yet.
a) If God knew this ahead of time, then why did he command Adam not to eat from this tree? He could have just let him run around untill he ate it.
b) If God knew this then why did he ask Adam and Eve, to repent? Genesis 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? The Lord knew he had eaten from the tree, as he know everything, that has happened. So he asked this question, for Adams sake, not His own. Since it was for Adams sake the answer should have been, “Yes, Lord, I did…I’m sorry for what I have done.” This is not what Adam said, he said ” Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.” Adam like so many here on this thread, blamed God, for giving him the tree and the woman. He cast off any responsibility, this is the desire of all those who protest today. Whereas, those who blame God as did Adam, desire nothing more than the flesh of another, and food. They, bite the hand that feeds them. Nothing new under the sun.

Edited Grammer.


[edit on 28-3-2005 by Balaams donkey]



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 04:22 PM
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Originally posted by Balaams donkey

St. Basil the Great, an exact exposition of the orthodox(right thinking) faith:
Book II, chaper 27 (excerpt)

Argument 2: God knew Adam would eat the fruit and fall.
False! God did not know this. Because it had not happened yet.

a) If God knew this ahead of time, then why did he command Adam not to eat from this tree?

b) Genesis 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? The Lord knew he had eaten from the tree, as he know everything, that has happened. So he asked this question, for Adams sake, not His own. Since it was for Adams sake the answer should have been, “Yes, Lord, I did…I’m sorry for what I have done.” This is not what Adam said, he said ” Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.” Edited Grammer.


[edit on 28-3-2005 by Balaams donkey]



Quoting something from a catholic of the 4th century really doesn't mean anything to me. The catholic church has perverted the gospel. I'm a saint too and so is every other christian dead or alive.

Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God and there is none like me, DECLARING the END from the BEGINNING, and from ANCIENT TIMES the things that ARE NOT DONE......

Adam and Eve "tried" to be hid(Strongs says it can mean "seperate") from God. God knew where they were physically and spiritually,(seperated from Him)He was trying to get Adam to admit it himself. Sin had just overwhelmed them and entered them. They were pretty "freaked out".

God told them not to eat of the tree. He gave them a "limit". They didn't obey. Without that limit they couldn't be responsible for their actions. They knew not to eat it, but chose not to listen to God.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 04:48 PM
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dbrandt

That is not true. There are plenty of verses that tell us God knows everything. Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. God knows the end from the beginning.


What you say is true. However, it is a dynamic problem. The Atheist uses a paradox to corrupt faith in the followers. The most notorious user of the paradox was Zeno of Elea (495-430 b.c.)
A paradox is a statement that entails its negation. Meaning we always arrive at a contradiction.
A few paradoxes, for those who do not know.

The famous greek, liars pardox:
Example: This sentence is False. (is that true?) see the paradox
Example: The truth is, there is not truth.
A paradox is true and false at the same time, which means truth and falsehood have been combined, and we must separate them out to see them clearly. The two above are called “self-referential” because the sentence speaks for it self. They get much harder.

The Unexcorcised Paradox:
“the next sentence is false. The sentence is true.”

Zeno’s movement Paradox:
“Achilles will never run fast enough to catch the tortoise!”
“He must first must first travel half the distance, to the tortoise, the half of the that, an so on…to infinity. He would take and infinite amount of time to reach the tortoise”
Poor Zeno was trying to prove that nothing is moving, we are just thinking that. Our senses are deceiving us.
Paradoxes often rely on the vagueness of words.
Such as, "that man is bald." However, baldness has no properties; it is simply the lack of something with properties, hair.

Paradox: if God is all powerful, then he controls everything. Inculding evil.
Paradox: if God is all knowing, then he knows everything that "will" happen.

This is far different then: God is all knowing and knows everything that "is" happening.

God has a plan, the plan will happen, our free will, allows us to be part of that plan.

example: If I am 5 years, and my father tells me to go to bed, I might protest, kick and scream. My father probably knew of my coming protest, but like it or not, I am getting in that bed, by reason or by force. Also, like it or not, I will go to sleep. In all of the years of my life I can count on my hands the days that have been without any sleep. Yes, God has a plan, he is the All Mighty, but he respects us and will not force us in to his kingdom of heaven.

So, dbrandt in summery, God knows his plan, God knows what we are doing, God does not know what we will do, and neither do we, until we get to the future, which has not occurred. We only know what we are doing.



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