In Defense of Jeff Weise's Mental State.

I can't help but notice the fact that Jeff Weise's prescription for anti-depressants is mentioned as often as his obsession with Hitler, and compared to the Columbine incident due to his style of dress.

Excerpt from local article (Bemidji, MN):

www.in-forum.com...

Weise was also taking the antidepressant Prozac following a suicide scare last summer, Grant said....

...Grant and his mother, Gayle Downwind, said Weise was taken to a psychiatric ward in Thief River Falls last summer after a suicide scare. Grant said Weise was "talking suicidal" in computer messages with a friend, prompting that friend to call police. Grant said he didn't know how long Weise stayed at the hospital.


Grant said he himself used to take 20 milligrams a day of Zoloft, another antidepressant, and the boys talked in detail about their medication. He said Weise told him he was taking 40 milligrams a day of Prozac: 20 in the morning, 20 at night.


"He was a lot more quiet," Grant said. "I wouldn't say any better."


In October, the Food and Drug Administration ordered that all antidepressants carry warnings of an increased risk of suicidal thinking and behavior in children. Prozac is the only antidepressant found to be safe and effective for children.

In a number of online postings attributed to Weise, he wrote of depression and feelings of worthlessness. For example, in a Jan. 4 blog posting, he wrote:

" ... I don't know, but what I do know is I'm a retarded (expletive) for ever believing things would change for me. I'm starting to regret sticking around, I should've taken the razor blade express last time around. ... Well, whatever, man. Maybe they've got another shuttle comin' around soon?"

Weise had been depressed since at least eighth grade, said Sky Grant's mother, Gayle Downwind, who taught Weise that year. She remembers him as a smart boy who would rather sketch in his notebooks than work on schoolwork.

On the reservation, many of the boys are into sports, especially the Warriors basketball team. Boys who aren't often get picked on, and Sky and Jeff had that in common, Downwind said.

"We could tell Jeff was depressed. He was alone. He sat in a corner of the classroom all the time," she said...

...Dr. David Fassler, an American Psychiatric Association trustee and child and adolescent psychiatrist in Burlington, Vt., said Prozac and other antidepressants can be effective along with other treatment, such as therapy. He said daily dosage ranges from 10 to 60 milligrams, based on body size and other factors. The severity of a child's depression is not a factor in determining dosage, he said...

Mental illness does not cause all sufferers to murder people. In fact, it is very difficult to list insanity as the motive in a courtroom. Many murderers' legal representatives try to use insanity as their defense, but it is sporadically issued by a judge or jury in the verdict, especially murders that are pre-meditated.

The rate of functioning by a person with mental illness varies. Many serial killers are sociopaths, which is why those who are acquainted with them often say, "I never would have guessed..."

But not all people with mental illness are sociopaths. I know this firsthand. I've seen and known people with clinically severe depression. They are unable to even bathe or eat, and are incapable of hurting anyone (physically) but themselves.

I've seen and known people with schizophrenia. Their lives must be completely structured, any change of structure causes severe distress. Others with schizophrenia are unaware of their actual surroundings, making a premeditated murder an impossible task.

I've seen and known people with BPD. Bi Polar/Manic Depressive. Typically, they engage in strenuous activities without completing a task, then sink into an acute depression at alarming rates.

Even untreated individuals are not always dangerous to the general population. Annoying, yes. Amusing at times, yes. But pointing a finger at them and labeling them as potential murderers is like blaming all people who are left-handed.

In conclusion, just because Jeff Weise was taking a normal dosage of Prozac does not surmise that those stricken with mentall illnesses are murderers.

Dot.

I think the prozac was a control mechanism to keep him calm, I havent seen anyone coming off prozac but I do know that people coing off zoloft can act extreme and paranoid and it heightens the 'issue' that first caused the medication to be prescribed.

More and more teens are being put on control medication instead of someone getting to the root of their issues and working through them.

In Jeff's case having his mother tell him he was a mistake and unwanted when she was drinking would have done much to screw his head up. I don't know whether people realise how damaging it is to a young person not to have the support of the one person that is 'a soft place to fall'.

I would say there was other issues that helped compound Jeffs mindset and it seems that the answer by our society was to keep him medicated.



[edit on 26-3-2005 by Mayet]

It's the Prozac and similar drugs if you ask me. Lots of these types of killers, including the Columbine click, were on these anti-depressants. There are studies which show that these drugs can cause violent behavior, increase suicide incidence, etc., yet the kids still are given this crap. I think this is all working to the benefit of those who want the New Freedom Initiative...

Key point: why wear a bullet-proof vest, then shoot yourself ten minutes later? Because he was initially looking out for his own safety (which a mentally ill person rarely cares about), had a moment of clarity within ten minutes' time, and turned his own gun to his head out of guilt.

The debate of environmental factors vs. genetics as a factor of human behavior has existed for decades.

There are highly-successful contributing members of society who were severely abused as children, born into poverty, abandoned, and overcame it. They are revelled for their pasts and applauded for it.

When it is someone who does something wrong, their pasts are eschewed. Their parents are blamed. In Weise's case, even his ethnicity is mentioned constantly. Considering his surroundings, his grandfather was a person of high-esteem. Law Enforcement.

Prozac is over-prescribed, I will admit that. In certain individuals a side-effect is thoughts of suicide. However, these individuals were seeking the drug for depression to begin with. Withdrawal from Prozac, when under the care of a physician, is relatively painless. It is gradually done over the time period of several months.

To keep an overtly anxious person calm, anti-anxiety medicinations are prescribed. Xanax. Valium. Ativan.

Teenagers are very difficult to diagnose, due to their hormonal levels. This is why he was probably on a "safe" medication. He wasn't doped up on anti-anxiety meds. He wasn't prescribed an anti-psychotic. He was labeled by his peers as "depressed." Most physicians are reluctant (believe it or not) to even diagnose a teenager, as puberty can exhibit all symptoms of mental illness.

Back to my title, he enjoyed watching horror movies. He spoke of Columbine. I find it redundant as to how he dressed. He had political views. He was a decent writer.

In fact, if you view the thread regarding his being a member of ATS, you'll find a lot of hindsight, but no foresight. None of us would have guessed. Not even the mods.

A sociopath would not have written his statements on ATS.
A psychopath would have detailed his methods cryptically.
A severely depressed person would have been ambivalent.
A manic/depressive would have edited and/or deleted their posts.

I believe he was a semi-intelligent teenager who just "snapped." I believe that his writings were not enough of an outlet for him, and his angst overcame him in a brief moment (ten minutes). He then had a moment of clarity, realized that what he did was wrong, and that there would be consequences for his actions, and this is why he turned his own gun to his head.

Dot.

You guys are missing some direct clues from Weise's posts:

He mentions that he likes to get drunk (social problem on reservations) -- drunk and Prozac do NOT mix, folks. He also mentioned in at least one profile that he liked to do drugs.

Recreational drugs and Prozac do not mix.

You assume that he was faithfully taking his Prozac... but nobody seems to know who he lived with and there might not have been any good monitoring of whether or not he actually took the prescriptions.

People here who take Prozac can tell you that if you don't keep up with your treatment AND you drink, that your mental state will deteriorate.

Originally posted by Byrd
You guys are missing some direct clues from Weise's posts:

He mentions that he likes to get drunk (social problem on reservations) -- drunk and Prozac do NOT mix, folks. He also mentioned in at least one profile that he liked to do drugs.

Recreational drugs and Prozac do not mix.

You assume that he was faithfully taking his Prozac... but nobody seems to know who he lived with and there might not have been any good monitoring of whether or not he actually took the prescriptions.

People here who take Prozac can tell you that if you don't keep up with your treatment AND you drink, that your mental state will deteriorate.

If he was trashed/addicted/alcoholic, wouldn't his posts and journal entries been less ornate? Less metaphors and analogies? He would have had no motivation to write to begin with. Some of his entries were quite lengthy. As it was mentioned he rarely attended school, how was he able to access this site for extended amounts of time?

(a mod would know the location of the computer he used)

I believe it was mentioned that he had a friend he would watch movies with. This means he was able to formulate somewhat of a relationship with another human being, another anomoly of someone who is seriously ill. This task is impossible for an acute, severely depressed indivudal. It is also extremely difficult for a person with psychosis.

In addition to writing, he sketched. The drawings weren't of butterflies and smiley-faces, but he still created yet another "safe" outlet for his emotions.

He chose to dress a certain style. "Goth" has been used to describe him multiple times. He possessed independent thought.

Had his plan been chemically-induced, he would not have been able to drive. He would not have been able to aim. He would not have chosen to wear a bullet-proof vest.

Finally, as a writer, he left no note. No explanation. No manifesto. This can only lead one to believe that he had no environmental motive for his actions.

Dot.

I believe that we may be missing something important here. Anyone can take an antidepressant and feel somewhat better but in his state he needed something more. Without agressive psychotherapy the Prozac probably wouldn't have helped much. In his mind set he needed to be talking with someone on a regular basis. This was, in a sense, a personality disorder that had been developed over the course of his short life. It's such a shame that it took the deaths of so many to realize that maybe this kid had just slipped through the cracks. Think about it, mental problems and a recent history of attempted suicide with almost non existent treatment, no parents, virtually no restrictions, a young impressionable mind and seemingly unlimited access to the net. What could possibly go wrong?

IMO there seems to be a pattern with these school shootings. Depressed kids, violent kids, kids on drugs and those drawn towards evil or satanic practices. Could Jeff of been another mind control experiment?

members.aol.com...
-Why have teenagers with violent tendencies been selected as mind control candidates and driven to kill innocent people as in the cases of some recent school shootings ?

-These school shootings created terror in US society and helped to promote gun control.

-Teenagers with violent tendencies are more susceptible to impulses and have less experience at handling pressure. They are much easier to manipulate and mind control. So, these violent teenagers (some of whom are violent cult worshippers like Luke Woodham) can easily be mind controlled and driven to murder innocent people/students. By using mind control devices to drive some violent teenage students to kill in schools, it can add to the total number of school shootings (including non-mind control cases) to attract the publics' attention. Furthermore, these school shooting massacres can increase terrors on the public.

Jeff Weise was nothing more than a triggered (sleeper) slave...for NWO.

One clue would be the fact that he killed himself after he has done the bad deed. This a standard procedure for triggered individual...

Originally posted by Byrd
You guys are missing some direct clues from Weise's posts:

Recreational drugs and Prozac do not mix.

You assume that he was faithfully taking his Prozac...
People here who take Prozac can tell you that if you don't keep up with your treatment AND you drink, that your mental state will deteriorate.

Yes I agree fully. I noted that the withdrawal or stopping taking zoloft can cause havoc and I don't see that it would be much different on prozac. I also agree about the drinking and recreational drug use, they do not mix at all.

Having said that it is in hindsight obvious that he has been planning this for a long time on a world that rejected him. He talks of it taking courage to turn the gun on yourself. Whereas we may agree its escapism and not having to be around to face the music as such he believed different.

Originally posted by dotgov101
A sociopath would not have written his statements on ATS.
A psychopath would have detailed his methods cryptically.
A severely depressed person would have been ambivalent.
A manic/depressive would have edited and/or deleted their posts.

A sociopath and a psychopath are the same thing. Those are just old terms for what is now called Anti-Social Personality Disorder.

Ambivalence is a Freudian term for having extreme feelings of love and hate for the same object. It might be present in depression or it might not.

Those with bipolar disorder (formerly, manic depressive disorder) cycle from depression to normalcy, hypomania, or mania. It only takes one manic episode to change a diagnosis of depression to bipolar.

There are clues to Weise's mindset in his writings, but it is important to have a basic knowledge of human behavior to draw accurate conclusions.

The kid's use of anti depressants is commented on so much because it is an unignorable trend among school shooters. Some tend to label the medication as the ultimate cause others take mental refuge in the theory that all of these kids are some sort of manchurian candidate.
On ATS of all places I would expect more people to focus on this being one of many symptoms in an overall decline in the behavior and mental state of todays kids rather than try to find a cookie cutter answer or product to blame so that they can sleep easier at night.

Originally posted by dotgov101
Key point: why wear a bullet-proof vest, then shoot yourself ten minutes later? Because he was initially looking out for his own safety (which a mentally ill person rarely cares about), had a moment of clarity within ten minutes' time, and turned his own gun to his head out of guilt.

Could be. That's a strong possibility.

OR

He could have worn the vest to be sure that no one shot him and
stopped him from finishing his task. The vest could have been
something he used to armor himself with until he was done doing
what he wanted to do. Suicide may have been planned all along
and the vest was just a tool to be sure he finished 'the job'.

We will never know.

Originally posted by Mayet
I havent seen anyone coming off prozac....

I have. Twice. One was a young fellow, rather buff, in his
early twenties. When he came off he became very violent and
had to be taken to a (mental health) hospital for a few weeks.
He was taken in chains, because the health workers were
afraid for their own safety he was so strong ... and so emotional.

The other was a mom around 30 years old. She suddenly
started to hear and see the Virgin Mary. She wrote down the
things 'Mary' was saying to her, kept a journal of them, started
to sleep in a closet that she turned into a private altar area,
and so on ... she would engage in conversation with 3 or 4
people in a group and when done she'd remember the conversation
completely differently than those other people would.

Those are my only two experiences with people on Prozac
withdrawls. They were not good. (they were people I knew,
I have never practiced the psychology that I majored
in oh-so long ago).

The point I am trying to establish is that not all people on Prozac, and not all people with an MI diagnosis are prone to kill.

I stand corrected about sociopaths vs. psychopaths. The terms are now used interchangeably, whereas in my schooling I was taught that sociopaths were usually undetectable in society, secretive about their true views. Psychopaths were outspoken and indifferent about their views.

Ambivalent was used in context correctly. "Uncertain or unable to decide about which course to follow."

I know someone quite well who has withdrawn off of Prozac. Myself. I'm breathing free air, and am not writing this post from a prison.

Dot.