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Ezekiel's war

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posted on Mar, 26 2005 @ 11:47 AM
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I don't think I've ever seen this prophecy discussed on ATS. I won't post the scripture but it is Ezekial chapters 38 and 39. It concerns a future war. Most theologians place this war during Armageddon. I don't think it is. I think it is before. I also think it is the event that causes the Jewish people to finally rebuild their temple. Theologians also say it is Russia invading Israel. That is not technically accurate. If you read the prophecy, it says that they (Russia) have hooks put in their mouth and are dragged. That doesn't sound like they are coming willingly. I believe that Israel gets into a war with one of the surrounding countries (probably Syria). Russia is then forced to uphold the "mutual defense" contract it signed. Israel doesn't stand a chance, except, the Russian army is destroyed in the mountains by an act of God. Then the Jewish people realize who saved them and rebuild the temple. I also think this event is not too far off so I would appreciate some input even if you disagree.




posted on Mar, 26 2005 @ 07:15 PM
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You can find people saying before during and after(after because of the fact that after the millennium has a gog and magog war too.

If I were to guess I would say it's before the tribulation.

Most people believers and unbelievers have a general accuont of what is supposed to happen in the middle east that affects the whole world, plus the fact that most people, especially the west, know that Jesus said He would return, even if they don't believe it they know about this stuff. Most people have also heard of satan/devil even if they don't believe he is a real entity.

So most know generally, a war is prophesied to come to the middle east that affects the world. This war involves Israel and at the end of it Jesus returns. Maybe not as many, but some know of a tribulation period and the resulting death it brings.

So we have the gog and magog war take place before the tribulation. We already have horrible things that take place all over the world and it could get worse simulating a tribulation period culminating in the gog and magog war. Then, however it ill happen, "someone" returns at the climax of the war. Like you said God tells us in the Bible the He Himself, the real God, will destroy the invaders of gog and magog. This "someone who returns"(antichrist) takes credit for their destruction and it even "looks" pretty convincing. So we have seen what people have been expecting and generally what is supposed to happen at the tribulation and armageddon.

Only one problem, it's not the real tribulation and not the real armegeddon,
and not the real Jesus Christ. But pretty darn convincing and quite a faith tester. I see this as a real possibility.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 09:39 AM
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I appreciate your input. I don't think the antichrist can take credit for the destruction of Magogs army. Ezekiel says they will be destroyed by 100 pound hailstones, and an earthquake that causes the mountains to fall on them. That is why I think the Jews will recognize it as the hand of God. That is also why it can't be during the battle of Armageddon. In that war, the physical return of Christ is what destroys the armies. So, it looks to me like it goes like this: Israel at war, Damascus destroyed, Russia heads south and gets killed in the mountains, Israel rebuilds temple and restarts sacrifice, Antichrist shows up fools world for 3 1/2 years, announces who he is, hell on Earth for 3 1/2 years, Christ returns, peace for 1000 years, Final judgement



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by papagrinch
[...]
Theologians also say it is Russia invading Israel. That is not technically accurate. If you read the prophecy, it says that they (Russia) have hooks put in their mouth and are dragged. ......
I believe that Israel gets into a war with one of the surrounding countries (probably Syria). ..............


I also think this event is not too far off so I would appreciate some input even if you disagree.


I have Questions that it is even Israel that is being attacked!

from BlueLetterBible website: (Eze. 38:10-12)

Thus saith the Lord GOD;
It shall come to pass, (that) at the same time shall things come into thy mind,
and you (Gog) shall think an evil thought:

And thou shalt say,
I will go to the land of unwalled villages,
I will go to them that are at rest,
that dwell safely,
all of them dwelling without walls,
and having neither bars nor gates.


to take spoil, and to take a prey;
to turn thine hand upon the desolate places(that are now) inhabited,
and upon the people (that are) gathered out of the nations,
which have gotten cattle and goods,
and dwell in the midst of the land.


I think a very-real-case can be made
that these verses describe SwitzerLand
rather than modern Israel, which has not been at peace or rest
since its inception in 1948 !

Switzerland is known for its picturesque Alpine Mountains
where cattle graze in a pastoral setting,
there are no walls, bars, gates around villages, cities, cantons.

Switzerland, makes a better target as 'prey', as the Swiss have goods and commodities and wealth & assets & banking...


=>but look at the 'Security Fence' snaking throughout the West Bank,
the constant suicide bombers all thru Jerusalem/Israel/Palestine....
=>compare what 'spoils or bounty or goods' that Israel possesses,
there might be the chemical resources of the Dead Sea...not much else,
other than a historical claim to the land & a legacy of hostility....
=>there's more points which could be listed,
but either you get the idea, by now, or not
yall inquire, examine, etc

peace



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by papagrinch
I appreciate your input. I don't think the antichrist can take credit for the destruction of Magogs army. Ezekiel says they will be destroyed by 100 pound hailstones, and an earthquake that causes the mountains to fall on them. That is why I think the Jews will recognize it as the hand of God. That is also why it can't be during the battle of Armageddon. In that war, the physical return of Christ is what destroys the armies. So, it looks to me like it goes like this: Israel at war, Damascus destroyed, Russia heads south and gets killed in the mountains, Israel rebuilds temple and restarts sacrifice, Antichrist shows up fools world for 3 1/2 years, announces who he is, hell on Earth for 3 1/2 years, Christ returns, peace for 1000 years, Final judgement


Yes, but isn't the "AntiChrist" supposed to be given "God-like" powers, to 'decieve even the elect if it were possible'?
Not sure, just asking.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by daboga75
Yes, but isn't the "AntiChrist" supposed to be given "God-like" powers, to 'decieve even the elect if it were possible'?
Not sure, just asking.


The Bible states the antichrist will be able to do lying signs and wonders.



posted on Mar, 29 2005 @ 01:03 AM
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Yes the antichrist will have supernatural powers. The question is though, when does he show up before or after Ezekiel's war? If you read Daniel, he shows up after a Middle East war has already begun. Ezekiel's war is not the end of the story, it is the beginning. After Magog's (Russia) defeat, the war continues. Ezekiel's prophecy just tells of Russia's involvement. The rest of the participants are still in play. While the war rages, a man comes in from the side to settle the dispute. He settles it through political means, not supernatural means. This is how he rises to a position of prominence. It is only after 3.5 years that he announces who he really is and demonstrates his supernatural ability. It can be difficult to put together because the Bible is like a jigsaw puzzle. You have to read all the prophecies including the gospels and the lesser known prophets like Nahum and Obidiah. Some are even dual prophecies written for the author's time in history and a future time. Also, the meaning of the prophecies is sometimes withheld until its time for them to happen. As for the idea that Ezekial's war involves someone other than Israel, probably not very likely. Daniel is pretty clear about a Middle East war. The only other possibility would be that it concerns the lost ten tribes. That would make it a war with the western world for the most part.



posted on Mar, 29 2005 @ 03:56 AM
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i don't know about russia . according to what i know , it's like what you suggested : one of the surrounding countries , ALL of the surrounding countries . islam vs. israel , pure and simple .
the antichrist will try to tempt the people with abilities such as briniging up the dead , and it's up to jesus to stop him . i also agree that it probably is BEFORE armageddon , and i think that the signs leading to that point in time are very prominent , may god have mercy on our souls .....



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by papagrinch
I don't think I've ever seen this prophecy discussed on ATS. I won't post the scripture but it is Ezekial chapters 38 and 39. It concerns a future war. Most theologians place this war during Armageddon. I don't think it is. I think it is before. I also think it is the event that causes the Jewish people to finally rebuild their temple. Theologians also say it is Russia invading Israel. That is not technically accurate. If you read the prophecy, it says that they (Russia) have hooks put in their mouth and are dragged. That doesn't sound like they are coming willingly. I believe that Israel gets into a war with one of the surrounding countries (probably Syria). Russia is then forced to uphold the "mutual defense" contract it signed. Israel doesn't stand a chance, except, the Russian army is destroyed in the mountains by an act of God. Then the Jewish people realize who saved them and rebuild the temple. I also think this event is not too far off so I would appreciate some input even if you disagree.

I'f I'm not mistaken, the temple is supposed to be built before the Armegedon. That's why you don't have to worry about that being in the near future. Israel will have to kill millions of Muslims. The site is the same as the Dome of the Rock. So first it will be israel killing millions. Then building the temple, Then retribution for that from a cosortium of nations. Then the antichrist sitting in the holy of holies. then the Armegedon. Then your christ returns.



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 10:18 PM
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I just wanted to submit this.

Gog and Magog

Gog and Magog are referred to in the Revelation in 20:18. This is a research paper I wrote in 1996-97 about the possible identity of Gog.

*******************

In chapters 38 and 39 of Ezekiel a "King of the North" is described that will march down from the far north of Israel with a six nation coalition. This invasion from the north will mark the beginning of the battle that will culminate in the second coming of the Christ to prevent the total annihilation of mankind. This army from the north will be lead by a military leader "Gog" of "Magog".

The biblical references to Gog and Magog which are in question come from the 38th and 39th chapters of Ezekiel. In these chapters these two titles are connected to an "invasion from the north" of Israel and the beginning of the war which will culminate in the second coming of the Christ. These verses begin as follows:


And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him. And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: Ezekiel 38:1-3 (KJV)


Looking at these two verses in the New International Version translation:


The word of the Lord came to me: "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; prophecy against him and say: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal..." Ezekiel 38:1-3 (NIV)


As can be seen from this second translation, Gog is a leader and Magog is the country from which he comes. So our first task at hand should be discerning where this land of Magog is.


Now these are the lines of Shem, Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah: sons were born to them after the Flood. The descendants of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. Genesis 10:1-2 (JPS)


So Magog is first mentioned in the Bible as a grandson of Noah. What does this mean to us? How can we use this to determine where the "land of Magog" might be today?

Flavius Josephus, noted Jewish historian, wrote (c. 70 A.D.), in Book I, Chapter VI, Section 1 of his Antiquities of the Jews:


"Now they were the grand-children of Noah, in honor of whom names were imposed on the nations by those that first seized upon them. Japhet, the son of Noah, and seven sons: they inhabited so, that, beginning at the mountain Taurus and Amanus, they proceeded along Asia, as far as the river Tanais, and along Europe to Cadiz; and setting themselves on the lands which they light upon, which none had inhabited before, they called the nations by their own names; for Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galations [Galls], but were then called Gomerites. Magog founded those that from him were named Magogites, but who are by the Greeks called Scythians. Now as to Javan and Madai, the sons of Japhet; from Madai came the Madeans, who are called Medes by the Greeks; but from Javan, Ionia and all the Grecians are derived. Thobel [Tubal] founded the Thobelites, who are now called Iberes; and the Mosocheni were founded by Mosoch [Meshech]; now they are Cappadocians. There is also a mark of their ancient denomination still to be shown; for there is even now among them a city called Mazaca, which may inform those that are able to understand, that so was the entire nation once called...Now when I have premised somewhat, which perhaps the Greeks do not know, I will return and explain what I have omitted; for such names are pronounced here after the manner of the Greeks, to please my readers; for our own country language does not so pronounce them; but the names in all cases are of one and the same ending; for the name we here pronounce Noeas, is there Noah, and in every case retains the same termination."


It can be seen from this passage that Josephus believed his current day "Scythians" to be descendants of Magog. The renowned Roman writer, Pliny, is quoted as saying (c. 70 A.D.) "Hierapolis, taken by the Scythians, was afterward called Magog."(1) Hal Lindsey points out that in this passage Pliny shows that "...the dreaded barbaric people called the Scythians were identified with their ancient tribal name." Lindsey goes on to say that "Any good history book of ancient times traces the Scythians to be a principal part of the people who make up modern Russia."(2)

According to Herodotus, the Scythians lived in an area of approximately 250,000 square miles just above the northwest shores of our modern day Sea of Azov. Herodotus states in Book 4, Chapter 101 of his History:


"Scythia, then, is four-sided, with two parts reaching to the sea; and the frontiers that run inland and those that run to the sea are exactly equal. For from the Ister [Danube] to the Borysthenes [Dnieper] is a journey of ten days, and from the Borysthenes to the Maeetian lake [Sea of Azov] is ten days again; and from the seacoast inland as far as the Black Cloaks, who live above the Scythians, is a twenty days' journey. The day's journey I have figured out to be four thousand stades."


This pseudo-rectangle surprisingly matches the area enclosed by the boundaries of modern day Ukraine. Hal Lindsey, in his book The Final Battle claims that certain factions of the Scythians migrated as far east as the plains of Asia and that the Great Wall of China was originally known as "The Wall of Magog". This allegation is apparently based on the Koran passage of Surah Al-Kahf 18: 89-99:


Then he followed another way, Until, when he came to the rising place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We (All⨩ had provided no shelter against the sun. So (it was)! And We knew all about him (Dhul-Qarnain). Then he followed (another) way, Until, when he reached between two mountains, he found, before (near) them (those two mountains), a people who scarcely understood a word. They said: "O Dhul-Qarnain! Verily! Ya'j?d Ma'j?>(Gog and Magog) are doing great mischief in the land. Shall we then pay you a tribute in order that you might erect a barrier between us and them?" He said: "That (wealth, authority and power) in which my Lord had established me is better (than your tribute). So help me with strength (of men), I will erect between you and them a barrier. "Give me pieces (blocks) of iron," then, when he had filled up the gap between the two mountain-cliffs, he said: "Blow," till when he had made it (red as) fire, he said: "Bring me molten copper to pour over it." So they [Ya'j?d Ma'j?>(Gog and Magog)] were made powerless to scale it or dig through it. Dhul-Qarnain) said: "This is a mercy from my Lord, but when the Promise of my Lord comes, He shall level it down to the ground. And the Promise of my Lord is ever true." And on that Day [i.e. the Day Ya'j?d Ma'j?b>Gog and Magog) will come out], We shall leave them to surge like waves on one another, and the Trumpet will be blown, and We shall collect them all together.


Now, let's look at the word Magog itself to see if it can shed any light on the subject. In Hebrew the word is spelled with the following letters: gimel, vav, gimel, mem (numerical values would be 3+6+3+40=52). Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament says the following about this word:


[Magog], is the proper name of a son of Japhet, Genesis 10:2; also of a region, and a great and powerful people of the same name, inhabiting the extreme recesses of the north, who are at some time to invade the Holy Land (Ezekiel, Chapters 38, 39). We are to understand just the same nations as the Greeks comprised under the name of the Scythians (Josephus, i.6, par. 1). The Arabs call them Yajuj and Majuj, and they have many fables about them. Their king is called [Gog]. See Koran, Sur. xviii. 94-99; Assemani Biblioth. Orient. t. iii. p. ii. pp. 16, 17, 20; D'Herbelot, Biblioth. Orient. art. Jagiugh. In the same manner are joined Chin and Machin, i.e. the Chinese. The syllable ma in these names denoting place, region, has of late been learnedly discussed by Frahn, De Musei Spreviziani Nummis Cuficis, page 95.


So here it is seen that the term Magog, if taken as separate from the proper name of Japheth's grandson, can be viewed as having the root of Gog. In other words, Ma-Gog would translate as the place of Gog, or the region of Gog. It would appear at this point we should turn our attention to Gog.

Gesenius' Lexicon says of Gog:


1.) Of the prince of the land of Magog, Ezekiel 38: 2,3,14,16,18; 39:1,11; also of the Rossi, Moschi, and Tibareni, who is to come with great forces from the extreme north (38:15; 39:2), after the exile (38:8, 12), to invade the holy land, and to perish there, as prophesied by Ezekiel...
2.) of a Reubenite, I Chronicles 5:4.-


Gog is first mentioned in I Chronicles 5:4 where it is used as a name for one of the Reubenites (descendants of Reuben). There could be great importance to this reference, even though there is very little commentary on it. Israel (the man) - whose name was originally Jacob, but then changed by God to Israel - had twelve sons. From these twelve sons originate the twelve tribes of Israel (the people). The firstborn of Israel was Reuben and it was customary that the firstborn receive the "birthright". However, due to "carnal transgressions" that offended Israel, Reuben was denied his birthright.

Recounting the scene where Israel calls his twelve sons together at his deathbed:


And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days. Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father.

Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power: Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch...

...Judah, thou art he whom thy brethen shall praise: they hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee...The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. Genesis 49: 1-48,8,10 (KJV)


As can be seen here, not only did Reuben not receive the birthright but, instead of any kind of consolatory blessing, he received a sort of forewarning of ill fate. Instead, Judah, the second born, was told that the "kingship", or the "ruler of the Israelites" would ALWAYS come from his (Judah's) descendants. Now it was peculiar that this blessing was phrased this way because up to this point there wasn't, nor had there ever been, a "king" over any of Abraham's descendants. So this blessing was definitely a prophecy of things to come. And, in fact, all the Israelite kings were from Judah's lineage...and Christ was from Judah's lineage.

But this "past" Gog was from Reuben's lineage. What could this mean for a future "Gog" and any claim he might have to regain the birthright that was denied his ancestors, if, in fact, he were to be of the same lineage? Looking at I Chronicles chapter 5:


Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright. For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's The sons, I say, of Reuben the firstborn of Israel were, Hanoch, and Pallu, Hezron and Carmi. The sons of Joel; Shermaiah his son, Gog his son, Shimei his son. I Chronicles 5:1-4 (KJV)


Notice that Judah was not given Reuben's birthright. This was passed on to the second son of the eleventh son of Israel (Israel's grandson). Judah was given the promise that "the chief ruler" would always come from his line. It is worth pointing out that this whole incident, from a human viewpoint, is very odd. First of all, at the time there were no "rulers" of the Hebrew people, so why this promise to Judah? Second, the power to rule the people (when it came eventually) was, from this moment on, disconnected from the birthright of the firstborn. In other words, the blessing of the birthright, no matter who received it, did not necessarily include the power to rule - and, in fact, from this point on, absolutely did not. So a future Gog, who claimed to be of the line of Reuben, could argue a claim to one or both of these two rights.

There can be found secular mention of Gog and Magog as well. Graham Hancock was the East Africa correspondent for the The Economist magazine. In comparing a recently discovered Ethiopic letter and an ancient Ethiopic manuscript he stated:


"...I noticed that mention was also made of 'King Alexander of Macedonia' in a context that linked him to 'Gog and Magog'. This caught my eye because I remembered that Alexander, Gog and Magog had been connected in an almost identical manner in a very ancient Ethiopic manuscript known as the Lefafa Sedek, the 'Bandlet of Righteousness', which was supposedly unknown outside Abyssinia until the nineteenth century."(3)


There are several intriguing aspects to this statement. First, some of the most ancient manuscripts of the Old Testament books were found in the custody of the Ethiopian Jews. Second, it is accepted by many scholars of Judaism that the Ethiopian Jews hold certain ancient Hebrew rituals in a purer form than any group of Jews anywhere on earth. Third, why would Alexander the Great be connected with Gog of Magog? The Jews of Alexander's time had no reason to connect him with such an evil force. In fact, the Jews of Jerusalem willingly turned their city over to Alexander to avoid having the Temple razed. In return, Alexander allowed Jerusalem to live as an autonomous state in the middle of his kingdom; free to worship and live as they had before his arrival. So there is no known motivation for the degree of animosity that would have to exist for an ancient Jewish writer to connect Alexander's name to Gog and Magog. There must be another reason.

When Alexander marched upon Jerusalem, the High Priest and company marched out to meet him on the road in hopes of surrendering their city and thereby avoiding damage to the Temple. Once Alexander had shown his respect for the God of Jerusalem and informed the people that he would not destroy their city, but instead give it back to them, the Jews offered Alexander the title "King of Jerusalem". (Please note the title...not "king of Israel"...not "King of the Jews"...but "King of Jerusalem".) Alexander the Great turned down this title, but reserved it for his posterity. So a descendant of Alexander the Great could argue a claim to the title "King of Jerusalem". Now if this is added in with the claim to the birthright of Reuben and the claim that this birthright should guarantee the title "King of Israel", we have a person (Gog?) who would have a very powerful claim. We currently have at least two powerful men in the world that claim decendancy from Alexander the Great. Hapsburg of Austria and Carlos of Spain. In addition, the "Club of Rome" (also known as the "Black Nobility" of Europe) is a group of families that all claim to have blood connections to the "thrown of David", which, of course, implies they are part of the lineage of Judah.

Now, looking back at Ezekiel 38:2 (NIV): "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal..." The NASB translation reads: "...prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal..." The word Rosh should now be investigated.

Rosh is the root of the modern word Russia.(4) The Hebrew word Rosh, translated as "chief" in the King James and Revised Standard version of Ezekiel 38:2,3, literally means "top" or "head" of something. Most scholars, however, believe this word is used in the sense of a proper name, not as a descriptive noun qualifying the word "prince".(5) The German scholar, Dr. Keil, says, after a careful grammatical analysis, that it should be translated as a proper name, i.e., Rosh. He states, "The Byzantine and Arabic writers frequently mention a people called Ros and Rus, dwelling in the country of Taurus, and reckoned among the Scythian tribes."(6) So Rosh leads back to the Scythians, creating a common link to Magog.

Dr. Gesenius states in his Hebrew Lexicon (c. 1857):


"Rosh: proper name of a northern nation, mentioned with Tubal and Meshech; undoubtedly the Russians, who are mentioned by Byzantine writers of the tenth century...dwelling to the north of Taurus, and described by Ibn Fossian, an Arabic writer of the same age, as welling on the river Rha (Wolga). (See Ibn Fosslan, Bericht von den Russen alterer Zeit, ubersetzt and erklart von Frahn. Petersburgh, 1823, especially p. 28, seqq. Compare Jos. de Hammer, Origines Russes, Petersburgh, 1827, who also here compares the nation...in the Koran, Koran xv.31:1.12.)"


Hal Lindsey states that men were foreseeing Russia's role in history long before it rose to its ultimate state of power. He quotes Bishop Lowth of England as writing in 1710, "Rosh, taken as a proper name, in Ezekiel signifies the inhabitant of Scythia, from whom the modern Russians derive their name."(7)

Looking at the last two names mentioned in Ezekiel 38:2,3, Meshech and Tubal, we find that both Meshech and Tubal were sons of Japheth and brother to Magog. Some scholars have found Meshech to be a variation in the spelling of Moscow and Tubal similar to Tobolisk - an area in the Ural section of Russia.(8)

Herodotus, the fifth century B.C. Greek philosopher has been quoted as mentioning Meshech and Tubal and identifying them with a people named the Samaritans and Muschovites who lived at the time in the ancient province of Pontus in northern Asia Minor.(9) (Pontus is the area around the modern day Black Sea). However, I have not yet been able to locate this particular passage in Herodotus' History. In fact, it would tend to contradict the implied geographic areas in which the descendants of Meshech and Tubal lived according to passages I have read in both Josephus and Herodotus.

As stated before, Josephus states that Tubal was the founder of the people referred to as Iberes during his time (70 A.D.). Herodotus' History clearly shows Iberes to be Spain. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance identifies Tubal as "Migrants to Sicily and Spain." As for Meshech, Josephus states that he founded the Mosocheni, who were known as the Cappadocians in Josephus' time. Clearly this is central to western Turkey.

Gesenius states:


"Tubal - proper name the Tibareni, a nation of Asia Minor, dwelling by the Euxine sea, to the west of the Moschi...

Meshech - proper name Moschi, a barbarous people inhabiting the Moschian mountains, between Iberia [Spain], Armenia, and Colchis, Psalms 120:5, almost always joined with the neighboring Tibareni...just as in Herodotus...A pronunciation more near to the Greek form is found in the Samaritan copy...Mosoch."


In conclusion, Gog is a military leader that will lead a six nation coalition against Israel sometime within the seven year tribulation period. Most scholars seem to agree it will occur prior to the mid-tribulation point which will mark the beginning of the three and one-half years of the "Great Tribulation". This march on Israel will culminate in the second coming of Jesus Christ. Concerning the identification of Magog, Dr. John Cumming wrote in 1864, "This King of the North I perceive to be the autocrat of Russia....that Russia occupies a place, and a very momentous place, in the prophetic word has been admitted by all expositors."(10)

As John Hagee states:


"And while no on knows the exact location of the land of Magog, going north from Israel will eventually land you in Russia. And even if it is later determined that the land of Magog is located in modern-day Turkey or the land bridge between the Black and Caspian Seas, this does not rule out he possibility that these areas are conquered by Russia in the days immediately before the Rapture (which I believe we are living in) or immediately after.

Whatever the identify of "Gog, of the land of Magog," it is leading many nations in the war against Israel and the Jewish people. Interestingly enough, a substantial number of the nations mentioned in Ezekiel 38 an 39 have been allied with Russia in recent times: 'These include Iran ('Persia'), Sudan and northern Ethiopia ('Cush'), Libya ('Put'), and Turkey ('Meshech', 'Tubal', 'Gomer', and 'Beth Togarmah').'"(11)


End Notes

1.) Lindsey, Hal, the Late Great Planet Earth, pg. 53.
2.) Ibid.
3.) Hancock, Graham, The Sign and the Seal, pg. 110.
4.) Walvoord, John F., Major Bible Prophecies, pg. 391.
5.) Lindsey, The Late Great Planet Earth, Ibid.
6.) Ibid, pg. 54. Lindsey takes this quote form C.F. Keil, D.D. and F. Delitzsch, D.D., Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament (Eerdmans Publishing co.: Grand Rapids, Michigan).
7.) Ibid.
8.) Walvoord, Ibid.
9.) Ibid. This quote comes from Walter Chamberlain, the National Resources and Conversion of Israel, (London, 1854).
10.) Ibid, pg. 52. This quote comes from Cumming, the Destiny of Nations.
11.) Hagee, John, The Beginning of the End, pp. 146-147.

Bibliography

Gesenius, H.W.F., Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, Baker Books, 1979.

Hagee, John, Beginning of the End: The Assassination of Yitzhak Rabin and the Coming Antichrist, Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1996.

Hancock, Graham, The Sign and the Seal, Touchstone Book, 1992.

Herodotus, The History, University of Chicago Press, 1987 - Translated by David Grene.

Josephus, Flavius, Antiquities of the Jews, Baker Books, 1992 - Translated by William Whiston, A.M.

Lindsey, Hal, The Final Battle, Western Front, 1995.

Lindsey, Hal and Carlson, C.C., The Late Great Planet Earth, HarperCollins Publishers, 1970.

Strong, James, LL.D., S.T.D., The New Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1995.

Walvoord, John F., Major Bible Prophecies, HarperCollins Publishers, 1991.

The Holy Bible, Thompson Chain Reference Bible, B.B. Kirkbride Bible Company, 1983.

The Torah: The Five Books of Moses, Jewish Publication Society, 1992.

Surah Al-Kahf 18, www.dar-us-salam.com... .



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 01:23 PM
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I'm throwing out info for people to be aware of. I've heard both ways about the war of gog and magog. The one in Ezekiel and the one in Revelation are the same war and I've also heard that they are 2 different wars.

Really recently I've found that some think the gog and magog war in ezekiel is an "alien"(demonic) war/invasion, that involves people also. Then we see in Revelation after satan has been released for a little season, another reference to a gog and magog battle after the 1000 years of Christ's rule..

Could the reference in Revelation and the gog and magog who is mentioned again,be evil angelic beings, and as such, also be the key to unlocking who is gog and magog in Ezekiel?


This is my edit, that the movie Independence Day had a theme like this and it united the world.

Is gog and magog refence to satan and his fallen angelic followers?

[edit on 3-4-2005 by dbrandt]

[edit on 3-4-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
magog / gog


Maybe..., gog=god and magog=dogma.

A war of true spirituality against dogma. That is how I see the final showdown anyway.



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 09:30 AM
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During the war in Revelation, the Antichrist is already in power. Before that takes place, the Jews must rebuild the temple. I know this because the Antichrist puts an end to the daily sacrifice, sits in the temple, and declares himself to be God. Right now, the Muslims have control of the site of the temple. If the Jews tried to rebuild it now, it would cause all out war. Something has to happen to make the Jews risk that possibility, or the Muslims must give control to the Jews. This is the third holiest spot on Earth for the Muslims, so they are not going to give it up. Also, during the war in Revelation, the armies of the world (the whole world) following orders of the Antichrist come to Israel (the valley of Armageddon). In Ezekiel, it is a six member confederation (as mentioned in an above post). In Revelation, the army is destroyed by the coming of Christ. In Ezekiel, the army is destroyed by natural disaster (100 pound hailstones and an earthquake). In Revelation, the armies come voluntarily. In Ezekiel, Magog is dragged down with hooks in its mouth. These cannot be the same event. Now, as the Magog army makes its way south, the inhabitants of Damascus asks them "have you come to take spoils?" Spoils are taken only after a battle is over. So, Damascus (Syria) has been in a battle and lost. Russia currently has a mutual defense pact with Syria. Why would they come to take spoils? It is likely that Syria and Israel get into a confrontation. Damascus is nuked. (I say that because of a prophecy in Daniel which says Damascus will be removed from being a city.) Russia is therefore obligated to come to Syria's defense (dragged into it). They are destroyed in the mountains. With Syria in shambles and the Russian army defeated by God, the support of the Muslims is severely reduced. In this senario, Israel would not only risk rebuilding the temple, they would be compelled to do so. Thus setting the stage for the arrival of the Antichrist. The Muslims just don't roll over though. They continue to fight. This is Daniel's war which is ended by the arrival of the Antichrist on the scene. As for aliens, I personally do not believe in them. However, Satan could use the idea as a way to decieve the people of the world. We will eventually have peace and unity but only after Christ returns. Most of you have probably not read the book of Nahum. It describes the time frame of when Ezekiels war will happen. It has a pretty good description of automobiles. So, since it hasn't happened yet, every day brings us a little closer. Maybe its another thousand years off, or maybe its next year. Also, the U.S. would not just stand by and watch the Russians head for Israel, so what has happened to us? Maybe that is where Jerimiah chapter four comes into play. Maybe we get nuked by someone and have enough trouble of our own that we can't come to the defense of Israel. Not a pretty picture I know, but possible.



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by freddieb
I'f I'm not mistaken, the temple is supposed to be built before the Armegedon. That's why you don't have to worry about that being in the near future.

That's not necessarily true. There's nothing that prevents this war from happening today. First of all we don't know if this takes place at the end of the 7 year period, or before it. Secondly, there's nothing that says that a temple has to be built in Revelation.



When you see the Abomination of Desolation, of which Daniel spoke, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)..."Matt 24:15

and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Daniel 11: 3


There could be some form of sacrifice offered on the temple mount to appease certain groups of Jews, and the holy place simply refers to the temple mount. Could there be a temple in place? Sure, but that's not to say it has to be there. Now if the scripture said that he would stand in the holy of holies or another more specific location in the temple then we could be sure that the temple would be rebuilt, but it doesn't.

Don't tell yourself, that "It can't happen today".



posted on Apr, 4 2005 @ 10:12 AM
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And thou shalt say,
I will go to the land of unwalled villages,
I will go to them that are at rest,
that dwell safely,
all of them dwelling without walls,
and having neither bars nor gates

This sounds more like Crete and the Minoan Civilization, which didn't have walls around its cities.

Why must Magog be Russia? Its just a powerful asian kingdom no? Why is it sometimes translated as Rosh?


ezekial 38
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him 3 and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army-your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. 5 Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, 6 also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops-the many nations with you.

Not for nothing, but the Russians don't have horseback cavalry, Cush is modern ethiopia/eretria (thereabouts), and Persia would probably be Iran. I don't know what 'Put' is suppoed to be, nor 'Beth Togarmah' or any of these other places are supposed to be. Why think that they have any modern equivalents?

13 Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all her villages will say to you, "Have you come to plunder?"

Sheba is thought to be parts of the more southerly arabia, tarsish I've only seen as Tarsus in Turkey.
So basically its everyone in the world of the people who wrote the story. Its 'the world against me', so why think that they were talking about modern Russia or even modern Syria and arabia?

From that day forward the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God. 23 And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me.

If anything that seems to be saying 'the jews were punished for listening to jesus and thats why i let the romans kill and disperse them' OR that the jews were lax in their faith and thats why the assyrians were 'allowed' to invade, destroy, and disperse them.



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 11:52 AM
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I'll try to answer questions in both of the above posts. First the Bible does say the temple will be rebuilt. Daniel predicts a decree to rebuild the temple. 2nd Thessalonians says the Antichrist will sit in (thats in) the temple. The temple must and will be rebuilt. The cities of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal have all been identified as ancient Russian cities. I'm not sure about a current Russian cavalry, but they do have horses, including the famous lipizanner stallions. The Bible also says Damascus will be removed from being a city. Damascus is the capital of Syria. Iran is also involved. So is Ethiopia, and Germany, and others, but the main prophecy was about Russia. Pick up a newspaper and you can read about the alliances these countries are making. The stage is set, its just a question of how soon. Here are some clues: Russia has a self defence pact with Syria. Russia is helping Iran with nuclear and military technology. So, three of the countries are already in bed together. Under Jewish law, only the Levite tribe can perform the daily sacrifice. A few years ago, a school was opened in Israel to teach the Levitical priests how to do it. Many of the sacred tools have been found or refashioned. Israel is asking the Vatican for the return of more that were taken during the crusades. Israel is also breeding the red heifer that is necessary for the sacrifice. Basically, all they need is the temple.



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