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Anybody still care about Patrick Tillman?

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posted on Apr, 17 2005 @ 07:22 AM
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Pat Tillman, and all the brave soldiers of the US Armed Forces that have given their lives in the line of duty are heroes, no doubt about it. They and their families deserve our deepest gratitude and respect. May the luster of their cause never fade or tarnish, and may our great nation always prove itself worthy of their ultimate sacrifice.






posted on Apr, 17 2005 @ 07:34 AM
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Icarus Rising
I have no problem with your claim, however if this were an elaborate coverup to hide the real truth that is going on in Iraq (the heroin/opium trade) then why would the government fabricate the story of 'friendly fire' in the first place? Wouldn't it just have been easier for them to claim that he was killed by an...improvised explosion device or enemy fire?

To claim that Tillman was killed by 'friendly fire' just opens up a can of worms when it comes to conspiracies. It just seems if the government wanted to cover it up, then they would have created another story that wasn't so malliable to conspiracy theorist.

[edit on 4/17/2005 by Simulacra]



posted on Apr, 17 2005 @ 07:41 AM
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Not just Tillman but all of our service members who have been wounded or killed. They all were and are great men and women whether they were celebrity status or not.

My best friend is serving our military right now in Iraq. He had to fly home for two weeks(thanks to the red cross) for emergency medical leave for his mother. After a few days he couldn't wait to get back to his unit as he wanted to be there with them. They are like brothers and do look out for one another.



posted on Apr, 17 2005 @ 07:45 AM
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That's what bothered me, and obviously Tillman's family, to begin with. It took a month for the Army to admit it was a FFF. That seems like a long time to me, under the circumstances. Now the investigation report will not be made public. The Army apparently doesn't want the public knowing the details of this incident. Tillman was somewhat of a national celebrity, which may have complicated things for them. The whole thing just stinks.





posted on Apr, 17 2005 @ 03:39 PM
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I'm not surprised in the slightest the defense department is not releasing the Tillman report publicly. The more one learns of the details & circumstances of his untimely demise, the more infuriating it becomes. Here is a brief timeline.

October 7, 2001: Operation Enduring Freedom begins in Afghanistan.

Pat Tillman successfully completes Army Rangers training with his brother.

March 2003: Pat Tillman first deployed to Iraq; it was not immediately clear when he was sent to Afghanistan.

April 22, 2004: 27-year-old Cpl. Pat Tillman is killed by fratricide (friendly fire).

"I could hear the pain in his voice," recalled the young Ranger who had been near him. Tillman kept calling out that he was a friendly, and he shouted, "I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" His comrade recalled: "He said this over and over again until he stopped.

May 2004: Initial official statements by the Army, even ones released after investigators already had received sworn statements about friendly fire, indicated Tillman had been killed by enemy fire when his convoy was ambushed by insurgents.
Lt. Col. Matthew Beevers gave details about the firefight that cost the 27-year-old Tillman his life. He said it occurred at 7:30 p.m. Thursday April 22, 2004 on a road near the village of Sperah, about 25 miles southwest of a U.S. base at Khost. After coming under fire, Tillman's patrol got out of their vehicles and pursued the attackers, then were ambushed. Beevers said the fighting was "sustained" and lasted 15-20 minutes.
He said Tillman was killed by enemy fire, but he had no information about what type of weapons were involved or whether Tillman died immediately.
An Afghan militiaman fighting alongside Tillman also was killed, and two other U.S. soldiers were wounded.
A local Afghan commander, Gen. Khial Bas, told The Associated Press that nine enemy fighters were killed in the confrontation.
Bas said six other enemy fighters were believed to have escaped. Beevers said he had no information about any enemy fighters killed.

Tillman‘s mother accused the military of burning her son‘s uniform to try to hide the circumstances of his death, and his father had said the initial investigation was a lie.

May 29, 2004: After the completion of the initial investigation, U.S. Central Command issued a statement saying Tillman "died as a probable result of friendly fire while his unit was engaged in combat with enemy forces." Army Rangers opened fire on comrades after a series of missteps and miscommunications, that initial investigation found.

November 2004: Les Brownlee, then-acting secretary of the Army, ordered a fresh investigation in response to questions raised by Tillman‘s family about the circumstances of his death in a remote canyon in southeastern Afghanistan.

March 2005: Investigators visited the scene of the incident and interviewed soldiers involved before wrapping up more than four months of work, said Col. Joe Curtin, an Army spokesman at the Pentagon
The investigation was headed by Brig. Gen. Gary Jones of the Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg in North Carolina.

The Army briefed the family and members of Congress about the findings of the new report.

No one has faced criminal charges over the incident.

Tillman‘s family had asked that it not be made public.


[edit on 17-4-2005 by Vajrayana]



posted on Apr, 17 2005 @ 04:03 PM
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I still care about Pat Tillman. He was a man who believed enough in something to give up another thing that most people would have never had the courage to give up.

Though both somethings were arbitrary and insignificant when considering the big picture, the courage and sacrifice he represents makes him an example of personal heroism in my book.

Pat Tillman was a great man and a great Ranger.

[edit on 17-4-2005 by DeltaChaos]



posted on Apr, 17 2005 @ 05:23 PM
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Originally posted by Icarus Rising
That's what bothered me, and obviously Tillman's family, to begin with. It took a month for the Army to admit it was a FFF. That seems like a long time to me, under the circumstances. Now the investigation report will not be made public. The Army apparently doesn't want the public knowing the details of this incident. Tillman was somewhat of a national celebrity, which may have complicated things for them. The whole thing just stinks.




When was the last time that any FF report was released to the public? Is there a good reason to release the information to the public? My answer to that would be no.

There are many reasons why the reports are not released, the leading one being that they do not want any kind of reciprocity against those who were found guilty of causing it.



posted on Apr, 17 2005 @ 07:30 PM
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Obviously, much of the report can be made public without naming names and endangering others. I respect the family's decision to keep the report private. There are enough facts about the incident already in the public domain to make it clear Tillman's death was an avoidable tragedy at the very least. The way the Army has handled it has only served to fuel the suspicions of cover-up and conspiracy. Have you read the link in the second post to this thread yet?



posted on Apr, 17 2005 @ 11:40 PM
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I care a lot.

I was a fan of his from his college football days. He reminded me of myself with his hard hitting reckless style of play, and I loved watching him punish recievers coming across the middle of the field. What really got me was when he gave up his NFL career to go serve. I don't know how many of you had the opertunity to play sports at that high of a level, but I know from experience that giving up a college career is very hard. There is almost a kind of withdraw. I can't imagine getting to the absolute highest level and then willingly giving that up.

The fact that he not only gave up the sport, but the money on top of is just simply amazing. I remeber he was getting offers of a 7 figure 4 year deal when he first became a free agent. Think about that.

Anyways, I really don't think there is any conspiracy here. Unfortunatly this happens in war, despite everyones best attempts to prevent it. Tillman risked his life for his country, and ended up paying the price. He is a true example of selflessness in a time when most care only for cable TV and their own bank accounts.



posted on Apr, 18 2005 @ 12:29 PM
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No, I care about the other 1734 lives lost and the many more that can be prevented. If Pat Tillman had not been a football player would we still be hearing about this or would it be "Pat Who?"

icasualties.org...



posted on Apr, 18 2005 @ 01:14 PM
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I'm sorry you feel that way, spiritdancer. You can care about all 1735 and counting, can't you? And what about all of those still in harm's way? Don't single anyone out because of their background and who they were/are besides being a soldier. I'm as glad Pat Tillman was famous as I am sorry that he's dead, so he can serve as a focal point for all those who mourn the tragedy and senseless killing caused by war. Its not him as an individual, its what he stands for as an example to us all that matters. And I'm sure that is exactly the way he would have wanted it.





posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 10:53 PM
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Sadly, today marks the 1st year aniversary since Pat's death. You are remembered buddy.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 01:32 AM
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Yeah. About half of Phoenix chants his name while watching the Hillbilly Chariots racing for NASCAR bucks. Good ol Pat must be spinning in his grave knowing he has been deified by a bunch of toothless subnormals. Viva Pat! Viva Dale! Viva Jerry Falwell! Hoooooooooooooooooo Weeeeeeeeeeeeeee you sure got a pretty mouf. ( I know I have to live amongst these people)



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 05:50 PM
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As a vet and a current defense contractor, I care very deeply about Pat Tillman and every member of the military.

I don't know here everyone is getting the idea that the report of the investigation of Pat's death is a coverup. His family anounced they didn't want it to be made public. That is all there is to it.



posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 08:32 AM
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There is enough information already in the public domain to show that Pat Tillman's death was an avoidable tragedy, at the very least. The way the Army has handled it has only served to exacerbate the cover-up/conspiracy theories.

No offense, but you sound like a mouthpiece for the Army brass feeling the heat that won't go away over this, pointing the finger at the parents (not just blaming the victim, but the victm's family) to get the attention off of yourselves, where it belongs. I respect the family's wishes to keep this gruesome report private. I don't agree with your assertion that its therefore end of story.





posted on May, 4 2005 @ 03:31 AM
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Army Withheld Details of Tillman's Death
Wednesday, May 04, 2005

WASHINGTON — Army officials knew within days of Pat Tillman's death that the former NFL player had been killed by fellow Rangers during a patrol in Afghanistan but did not inform his family and the public for weeks, The Washington Post reported.

A new Army report shows that Gen. John P. Abizaid , the theater commander in Afghanistan, and other top Army officials were aware an investigation had determined the death was caused by an act of "gross negligence" four days before a nationally televised memorial service, the Post reported after reviewing nearly 2,000 pages of documents it had obtained.

He was taking cover behind a boulder along a canyon road near the Pakistani border when a firefight erupted at twilight on April 22, 2004.

The Post reported on its online edition Tuesday night that troops on the scene said they were immediately sure Tillman was killed by a barrage of American bullets.

The documents show that officers erroneously reported that Tillman was killed by enemy fire, destroyed critical evidence and initially concealed the truth from his brother, also an Army Ranger, who was near the attack, the Post reported.


www.foxnews.com...

Not really too surprising. Knowing Tillman's sacrifice of a lucrative career would attract major media attention, and also knowing his ultimate sacrifice
was from a hail of friendly fire, the brass probably sacrificed much sleep improvising how to spin this controversial tragedy into a mellow drama.



[edit on 4-5-2005 by Vajrayana]



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 09:19 AM
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You know how a husban can upset at another husban(friend) for being
to-good his wife, and make you look bad? Maybe thats what we have here, he was a bigger hero, or more of a hero because he gave up a big time contract to serve.

As silly as it sounds, who knows, our minds can play tricks on us.



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 11:51 AM
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There it is. Just like I said it was all along. Its in the trailer on CNN right now.

The Army knew it was a FFF all the while they were saying it wasn't. They destroyed key evidence (like his uniform), and withheld his body (FGS) to try and cover it up. That's the way I see it.

I smell some careers in flames over this in the near future as the fallout continues. Anybody involved in destruction of evidence or covering up the true nature of this tragedy should be severely reprimanded. How many other FFF's have been officially reported KIA's? Why shouldn't that be investigated as well?

Thanks Vajrayana, for spotting the update.





posted on May, 4 2005 @ 02:58 PM
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‘No idea where they were’
In interviews with Jones, soldiers who were with Tillman when he died said they immediately reported that other Rangers, riding in a Humvee, emptied their weapons at his position on a hill without first identifying whom they were shooting. Perceiving they were in a heated firefight, the soldiers rounded a corner and used several high-powered weapons to kill an Afghan Militia Force soldier working with the Rangers before pausing and turning their guns on Tillman. About 65 meters away, Tillman had been waving his arms and throwing a smoke grenade to signal his unit that he was not an enemy fighter.

Jones reported that "some soldiers lost situational awareness to the point they had no idea where they were."

While parts of the unit's mission were classified -- one of six volumes of Jones's report contains entirely classified material -- Jones found that the operation on April 22, 2004, was a routine "confirm or deny" trip to determine whether enemy combatants were in the town of Manah. Commanders did not think hostile forces were in Manah, the report said, but an order to hurry up and get troops on the ground there before dusk was passed on because "we were trying to get them back and save them for the next part of the fight," an unnamed officer said in redacted documents.

Followed team leader
Tillman's platoon had to split up because of a broken Humvee. Tillman's half went ahead toward the town. When the second half of the platoon followed through the canyon, it reportedly came under enemy fire. Tillman grabbed another Ranger and the Afghan soldier and got into position to lend fire support. When the second half of the platoon rounded a corner, they mistook the trio as foes.

In the documents, the soldiers who fired on Tillman cite many reasons for the confusion: The sun was going down and lighting conditions were bad; soldiers shot where they saw muzzle flashes but did not appropriately determine a target; they shot in the same direction as their team leader, assuming that he was firing at the enemy.

"I've replayed the events of that day and my actions in response to the events in my mind countless times . . . given the same circumstances and having the same information I had, I would do the same thing," one soldier wrote in response to his punishment, which was getting kicked out of the Rangers. "I engaged men that I believed to be the enemy with the intent of killing them."

Another soldier wrote: "I wish that I would have taken a half second to positively identify the targets instead of following another SOP (shoot where your team leader shoots). Maybe CPL Tillman would still be alive or maybe the outcome would still have been the same, but at least I wouldn't have to live with the guilt and reexperience that ambush while I sleep."

After the shooting, Tillman's brother was not informed about what had happened and was flown back to the United States with his brother's body. Officers told the soldiers not to talk about the incident "to prevent rumors" and news reports.

"I mean, it's horrible that Pat was dead. Absolutely horrible. But it hurts even more to know that it was one of our own guys that did it . . .," one soldier told Jones. "We just, we didn't want to get anything, you know, bad said about the regiment or anything like that. That was my guess to what the whole thing was about. We didn't want the world finding out what actually happened."

The first report about Tillman's death within Army channels -- sent at 4:40 p.m. April 22 -- said that Tillman died in a medical treatment facility after his vehicle came under direct and indirect fire, attributing the gunshot wounds he received to "enemy forces." An investigation was immediately launched, and several documents show that the local chain of command was largely convinced it was fratricide from the beginning.


Body armor, uniform was burned

The next day, Tillman's Ranger body armor was burned because it was covered in blood and was considered a "biohazard." His uniform was also burned. Jones noted that this amounted to the destruction of evidence.

Soldiers reported they burned the evidence because "we knew at the time, based on taking the pictures and walking around it it was a fratricide. . . . We knew in our hearts what had happened, and we weren't going to lie about it. So we weren't thinking about proof or anything."



Commanders felt they could not hold on to the old version because the Rangers were returning home and "everybody knows the story," the documents show.

Seven soldiers were given administrative reprimands for their actions, the most serious of which were for dereliction of duty and failing to exercise sound judgment and fire discipline in combat operations. Jones did not address the appropriateness of the punishments.

One of the initial investigators, who issued a finding of "gross negligence" by the soldiers who shot Tillman, told Jones he felt the punishments did not fit with his finding. The investigator said he felt the chain of command allowed the soldiers to change their stories to protect individuals.

"They didn't get their due just punishment," the investigator, whose name is censored in the report, told Jones. "I guess that's why I was frustrated at how it all unfolded."


www.msnbc.msn.com...

I agree Icarus Rising. Makes one wonder what other fratricides have been doctored or re-scripted out of fear from a family's/nation's scorn. I hope hard lessons were learned & ranger tactics revised to avoid future unacceptable tragedies such as Tillman's.



[edit on 4-5-2005 by Vajrayana]



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 03:15 PM
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guys, i'm the son and grandson and nephew of servicemen
and think the world of my relatives' service in WWII, Korea, the DR, and Vietnam, and I love my country,
but/so/and
can we not agree that neither the entire military nor every single member of it is spectacularly brave and super and wonderful, please? i'm supportive, but i'm not stupid, or blind.

pat tillman gave up a career in the nfl to join the army and fight--i guess-- terrorism, or to respond to the events of 9/11 in a true, real, meaningful way. ok. tillman is then shot to death by "friendly" fire, and the military machine conspires to cover it up for reasons unknown. if he knew before he enlisted what he knew at the end, i wonder if maybe we'd be talking about what a monster he is in football pads, instead of this nastiness. i wish we were.



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