Thank You Germany & France...for the knife in the back!

Originally posted by new_falcon_XXI
Jako: you are absolutely right. I've seen LA on other topics, and it's always the same pattern. It's absolutely useless to try to tell him something, he never listens to any facts and he never will. I think he has only one opinion, and he is not able to change it. It's just a waste of time to answer his posts. My opinion is: just ignore him furtherway, he makes no sense at all. There is one Mod at this board whose signature reads: Never try to teach someone who doesn't want to learn (or similar). I couldn't find better words (but very bad ones I don't want to use because of etiquette.) I wouldn't go so far to call him a friend like you did, but a serious case of narrow-mindedness, and anyone who reads his post should be aware of this. Go on, discuss, but do it anywhere serious, please don't give him the satisfaction to be recognized as a seriously interested person. He is not. Always giving the same statements he is - I repeat it because redundance is very important - just unable and unwilling to learn, to listen, to argue and to think about what he is saying. Very poor guy, I feel sorry for him because he doesn't know anything about the world. Everyone else: please discuss the topic anywhere else, it's unbearable here. Jako: greetings to an educated and not too much brainwashed mind like I consider myself to be one, don't get too emotional about people like this, there are more beautiful things in life!

That's funny. You go after LA for being one-sided, while praising Jakomo as educated and not brainwashed, when Jakomo is pretty much the exact same as LA only on the opposite side of the spectrum. One is brainwashed and blinded by American patriotism, and the other is brainwashed and blinded by hatred for America. There are a few free thinkers on this board, these two are not included, IMO.

I guess a one-sided opinion is okay, as long as it's yours, right?

[edit on 28-4-2005 by 27jd]

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
and you couldn't say that in a U2U? instead you felt like you had to talk crap about him. This just shows you had no other defense against his words so you resorted to a personal attack. There is an old saying that I heard in school once, "when a person attacks someone personally in a debate that means they have lost."

Sorry, would have been an option, but I wasn't in a debate club at school. You may be right about that in general, but I didn't have the feeling there's a debate in progress anyway, especially not with the one who initiated it - as I tried to say: there are no real arguments from LA's side. And, sorry again, but I thought you live in a country (at least ATS is situated there) where the right to express one's mind is anchored in the constitution. I know, LA used that right too, but to have a serious discussion there has to be something more, otherwise it's just the same thing politicians do: saying something about something they don't know anything about, but making rhetorical points to amaze and blind the auditorium, therefore just faking a discussion that leads to nowhere but back to the point they started from.

Falcon, feel free to not view my threads if they bother you, but at 42 years old...Ive been around. I lived overseas for 2 years and I saw Europe thru the gunsight of an M-1 tank, so I am sensitive to their opinions.

I do listen to others if their making a point worth listening to, but
If you start calling me a Nazi, Biggot and a Raciest, your not gonna get much outta me.

The only thing Im guilty of is loving my country. America is the Greatest nation on God's Green Earth and Im not ashamed to say it.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.....

Maximu§

27id:

Iraq. Iran. Chile. Vietnam. Cambodia. Laos. Colombia. Honduras. Nicaragua. Venezuela.

So where are the references I requested? Show me how we destroyed those nations. Don't just list any nation you can think of that doesn't have "warm" relations with the U.S. as nations we have destroyed.

Just READ. Do a google search for USA Iraq, USA Nicaragua, USA Laos, USA Cambodia.

It's not my job to educate you on your obvious ignorance. It's YOUR country. If YOU don't know the history of your OWN country, that seems to be your problem, not mine.

Your country CRIPPLED all those countries. Through its' meddling. Stay ignorant if it helps your arguments.

And we're the only country that has ever meddled behind the scenes in the affairs of others? Is that what you're saying? Please say it is so you're position can be exposed for the purely anti-American BS that it is.

Find me where I said or implied this. Direct quote, please.

Indeed. And your trumpet is the loudest.

Not really. Mine is just the one that plays clear notes.

you didn't express an opinion except that you think LA is a lowsy person; which should have been done over a u2u, if at all. It was pointless and unnecessary.

Originally posted by 27jd

I guess a one-sided opinion is okay, as long as it's yours, right?

[edit on 28-4-2005 by 27jd]

Allright, allright, maybe I was a little to quick about it, I have to admit I was emotional myself by reading just a few posts. I should have studied the whole 21 pages (on my browser) to be just. MY FAULT, mea culpa. But why do I not read anything like: Yeah? I didn't know that fact, maybe I should consider it. (not about my post, but others). All the times I read something about me good, you bad. That's very one-dimensional. I understand that a discussion is about learning from each other, not pointing out the same opinion over and over again. To say something nice: I don't hate America or Americans in general, in fact I love a lot of musicians, authors, movies and so on, but I love them because of their free spirit. I think what the world is most disappointed about America is not only politics (that's a well known fact), but the promise of a kind of Freedom which remains just a promise, never gets fullfilled. And every time there are discussions about something like in this thread, this disappointment hits back and there are just emotions anywhere, but no creative or progressive reactions, only 100 percent love or hate. And that's what I tried to say: this is useless, you can go drinking a few beer with your buddies and talk the same way, and after that everyone will go home satisfied thinking: hoho, I really did show them tonight, did I? But it's not bringing you any further.

what kind of freedom is it that you are looking for? Anarchy? Just curious, not trying to sound degrating.

Originally posted by Jakomo
Just READ. Do a google search for USA Iraq, USA Nicaragua, USA Laos, USA Cambodia.

It's not my job to educate you on your obvious ignorance. It's YOUR country. If YOU don't know the history of your OWN country, that seems to be your problem, not mine.

Like I stated before, I'm well aware of U.S. involvement in those countries, and I know how to use google, thanks. But the discussion I was involved in with the other poster, was whether the U.S. has done anything good for others in the world, which we have. I never said we have never done anything bad. So, YOU can go on whining about MY country all YOU want, I don't care what YOU think, all YOU can do is whine.

Your country CRIPPLED all those countries. Through its' meddling. Stay ignorant if it helps your arguments.

CRIPPLED through meddling and DESTROYED are two different things, talk about ignorant. By DESTROYED what was meant was bombed until DESTROYED. And I never said I thought it was right, but if the people in those countries allow themselves to be ruled by puppet governments, there's not much I can do about it, I'm too busy trying to help change the government I live under. But you won't acknowledge that, it doesn't fit your American stereotype.

Find me where I said or implied this. Direct quote, please.

Don't like having words put in your mouth, do you? Good. Neither do I. Besides, I asked if that's what you were implying, I never said you said it. Go back and READ, follow the advice you gave me, I was just observing that in your immense amount of America bashing, you give every other crooked goevernment, including you own, a free pass. It's bias plain and simple.

Not really. Mine is just the one that plays clear notes.

Not from what I've heard.



[edit on 28-4-2005 by 27jd]

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
I lived overseas for 2 years and I saw Europe thru the gunsight of an M-1 tank, so I am sensitive to their opinions.

I do listen to others if their making a point worth listening to, but
If you start calling me a Nazi, Biggot and a Raciest, your not gonna get much outta me.

The only thing Im guilty of is loving my country.

Maximu§

I never intended to say those bad words about you, as a German I know exactly what they meant in the past and still mean today. There is nothing wrong about loving his own country, but sometimes love makes blind. For example: If you got a real best friend, I mean a real one, what is better, to admire him totally or saying him something he maybe don't want to hear, but makes your relationship somehow equal and shows him that you really care about him and his ways of doing things? In my opinion it should be the same about patriotism. If you love your country, you also have the duty to inform yourself about what's going wrong, because it's your country, and your love. If there are people who hate the thing you love, there may be a grain of truth in it. Nobody could force you to believe it, but you should become more conscious because - who knows? - maybe the others are right. It's very similar to love between men and women too. If one part loves too much, he or she doesn't see the changes, only the image of the other person as it has been on first sight..
As to your sight: I don't envy it, but respect it. I've seen some of the world too, lived in Africa and Mid America for some time and it really challenged and changed my view. But I worked there non-military, with less distance to the normal people, which makes me a very lucky person I think. As it widened your view to European matters, it widened my view to other continents. I think you shouldn't stop but develop it further. 42 is not very old.

Originally posted by new_falcon_XXI
Allright, allright, maybe I was a little to quick about it, I have to admit I was emotional myself by reading just a few posts. I should have studied the whole 21 pages (on my browser) to be just. MY FAULT, mea culpa.

No problem. I was wrong for getting so defensive, I just get upset when everybody bashes my country because of one lame president. He will be gone in just a few years. You seem like a free thinking individual, not blinded by hate. I disagree with the super patriots just as much as anybody, I don't pledge my allegiance to Bush but to my country, and I hope in the future these warmongers will not be in power.

LA, who's god is it?
If its "god's" green earth then shouldnt I an infidel be castrated, debowled and hung?
Also if your "sensitive" to our thoughts, would you mind not calling us cowards, backstabbers and traitors......just a friendly little reminder from your "allies" across the pond that our lads are dieing alongside yours.

I'll be sure to send a link of this thread to Private Kevin McHale's family....may he rest in peace that fine scottish soldier.

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
what kind of freedom is it that you are looking for? Anarchy? Just curious, not trying to sound degrating.

It's going too far for this thread and would take too long, but: Freedom of slavery.
Most of us are slaves to money and consumerism, and it's surely not our own fault. I'm not, repeat, not talking about Communism (I've seen it's not working), and Anarchy comes sometimes close, but won't work either. Maybe a more libertarian way (not to confuse with liberal, though sometimes you can't tell the difference), country yes, state no, markets yes, monopolism no, working yes, taxes no (at least not for higher interests like economic wars against innocent people for the sake of global companies), money yes, interests no. And some things more like that, but I always try not to mission too much. ... And again: working yes, but for $ 6 per hour, no - as it sometimes happens. As I said: it's going too far, and I don't have too much time, I got a 60 hours week and only 6 hours sleep tonight. But don't worry, I'm getting paid better...

[edit on 28-4-2005 by new_falcon_XXI]

America never promised a perfect life. We promised a better life. And if you don't believe that speaking freely and doing as you want, most of the time, is better than slipping up once and getting shot than I would say you are mistaken. Perfection is something that we will not achieved through our own(mans) actions.

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
America never promised a perfect life. We promised a better life. And if you don't believe that speaking freely and doing as you want, most of the time, is better than slipping up once and getting shot than I would say you are mistaken. Perfection is something that we will not achieved through our own(mans) actions.

Better life by who's standards?
Mine?
Yours?

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
Perfection is something that we will not achieved through our own(mans) actions.

Very true, speaking of all today's people. But still I think your founding fathers had something greater in mind, some kind of society not even close to what you can see all over the world in present times. That's the dream I'm talking about. The promise (in this case) is not: you give it, you fullfill it, but the dream behind, which every human being craving for freedom dreamt of. It was only written by Americans, nobody says you have to bring it. The disappointment is, not even in America most of the people can live this dream but think they do, because "they" say so. (feel free to change "they" with government, media, companies, school or whatever comes to your mind)

Originally posted by devilwasp
Better life by who's standards?
Mine?
Yours?

Oh no! Here we go again! Some people may enjoy being oppressed, some even pay for it. Some may want to blow themself up to prove a point, others may want to blow somebody else up. You said it yourself, anything can be justified or condemned, right? Why do we always end up in these rhetorical debates DW? Do we just like questions with no answers?

Originally posted by 27jd
Oh no! Here we go again!

Some people may enjoy being oppressed, some even pay for it. Some may want to blow themself up to prove a point, others may want to blow somebody else up. You said it yourself, anything can be justified or condemned, right? Why do we always end up in these rhetorical debates DW?

Do we just like questions with no answers?

LOL,
I think someone else did but I'll take the credit yeah lol.
We end up in these debates because it makes sense.
The answer to most questions is affected by interpretation....

Falcon, I know America makes mistakes, but God knows we have to keep trying to make this world a better place.

I think the intell was bad about Iraqs WMD, but that does not make Bush a Liar, as alot of people have said in here. All the western intelligence agencies agreed he had WMD and Bush acted in the shadow of 9/11.

We're in the fight of our life right now against radical islam....and if America fails, theres gonna be a dozen 9/11's coming up, cause I think radical islam acts on weakness and retreats from strength.

Im not the only one worried about China, I think their arming for offensive operations in the near future and I would rather our Navy face a Chinese Dragon with Russian arms than with high-tech European weapons.


We all saw what French Exocet misslies did to the HMS Shefeld and the USS Stark in May of 1987...37 US Navy crew members died that day.

Most Americans have forgotten about them, but I have not. I don't want to see this happening to other US Navy ships when they step in to stop China from attacking her neighbors, because France wanted to make a few bucks.

I read somewhere that the Exocet ASM is almost impossible to stop...even with Aegis cruisers.

Its like a Gun shop owner who sells an assault rifle to a dangerous convict without any regard for others safety. The EU needs to make a choice....China or America.

Who has been there for the EU in the past? Its been America and we always will be there for the EU.

Max

Originally posted by new_falcon_XXI
Very true, speaking of all today's people. But still I think your founding fathers had something greater in mind, some kind of society not even close to what you can see all over the world in present times.

I'm not sure, given the new dynamics of this modern globalized industrial world, that what the almost primitve in comparison founding fathers had in mind is possible. Just as in a couple hundred years, if it still stands, civilization will be vastly different than it is now. We will be viewed as primitive and most of our laws will be irrelevant.

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
Falcon, I know America makes mistakes, but God knows we have to keep trying to make this world a better place.

You dont understand, you want to help but your not trying to help with others!

I think the intell was bad about Iraqs WMD, but that does not make Bush a Liar, as alot of people have said in here. All the western intelligence agencies agreed he had WMD and Bush acted in the shadow of 9/11.

Uhh wait hows... "they can be deployed in 45 mins" not lieing?
The missiles wouldnt even reach here.
It doesnt matter if they were in the shaddow of pearl harbour......the fact is he made a bad call.

We're in the fight of our life right now against radical islam....and if America fails, theres gonna be a dozen 9/11's coming up, cause I think radical islam acts on weakness and retreats from strength.

Right now?
You've been fighting it for over 3 decades.

Im not the only one worried about China, I think their arming for offensive operations in the near future and I would rather our Navy face a Chinese Dragon with Russian arms than with high-tech European weapons.

Yeah, and we would rather not have faced german panzers built with american money in 1940 but we dont complain. We complained about american weapons and money supplied to the IRA but ofcourse thats diffrent.

We all saw what French Exocet misslies did to the HMS Shefeld and the USS Stark in May of 1987...37 US Navy crew members died that day.

So wait, your saying that because france armed an ally of both the US and france (argentina BTW) that makes them bad?
Also wasnt iraq america's "friend" then?
If so then it would be fair game for france to sell weapons.

Most Americans have forgotten about them, but I have not. I don't want to see this happening to other US Navy ships when they step in to stop China from attacking her neighbors, because France wanted to make a few bucks.

Yet again anti france statements....
Mabye I should go on about afghanistan or the taliban funded by the CIA or the IRA funded by american money?

I read somewhere that the Exocet ASM is almost impossible to stop...even with Aegis cruisers.

So now the sytem that was defened by you and your patriots as being capable of stopping ANY missle now cant stop a missile?

Its like a Gun shop owner who sells an assault rifle to a dangerous convict without any regard for others safety. The EU needs to make a choice....China or America.

Yet again with painting china as "the bad guy" the "evil hun".
The EU doesnt need to make a choice, we stay on the fence because we're fed up with war....
[qoute]
Who has been there for the EU in the past? Its been America and we always will be there for the EU.

Oh so wait now its back to the "oh we saved you!" arguement?
Make your mind up about arguements.