Thank You Germany & France...for the knife in the back!

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
Anger. Bring up the name "America" at any French Canadians family party and watch the hatred flow. Ive seen people literally foaming at the mouth trying to express their hatred for America...The only thing that unites Quebec, is their hatred of America.

I don't think Québécois would be shopping in Plattsburgh year long if they hated America... or taking their vacation in Florida. That being said, there are some Québécois who do hate Americans, but let's not generalize. A lot of them just disagree with American policy and the arrogance a number of Americans show in their understanding of other nations. Of course, being told that because you speak French, even though you're Canadian, makes you suspicious, does nothing to improve relations.

However... when September 11 happened, Québec premier Bernard Landry was among the first to say that "when something terrible happens to people like our neighbors to the south, people in Québec unite and offer sympathy."

Confused: IMO, if you hate America.....as over 50% of French Canadians do, than your morally confused. How can anyone Hate a great nation like ours? We're spilling our blood to kill the bad guys so the good guys can get a chance......freeing millions of woman all around the world.....building schools for the kids...feeding the hungry.

First of all... if you call "hate" the act of disapproving of a number of elements of US policy, then I guess more than 50 percent of French Canadians "hate" America. But look, we have the right to disagree, don't we? I'm the first to applaud the good things the US does in this world - and it does do a lot - but look, Americans need to understand that French Canadians - or other people for that matter - will not always be in absolute awe before what the US does. And disagreement is NOT hate.

Originally posted by Blackout

Read more closely, I said no experience with modern naval warfare on ITS SHORES. If they did, they would have 1) implemented the convoy system and 2) sunk at least one damn U-Boat.

1) We DID implement the convoy system (though I agree late)

2) Again, your understanding of what happened is very very wrong. Where are you getting this crap from? Here is the VERY FIRST LINK I clicked on when I googled it.

During the war the U.S. Navy credited Coast Guard forces with sinking or assisting in the sinking of thirteen of Hitler's U-boats.

Coast guard sinks 13 Uboats

Thats just the damned COAST GUARD

Also, America, while they were building up their carrier fleet, did not realize, like everyone else at that time, that the carrier was the dominant force in the seas. They still stuck their carriers in front of their battleships, just like everyone else.

Again you are very very VERY wrong. US naval strategy was BASED AROUND CARRIERS! They knew EXACTLY what they were doing.

Why do you think that ALL of the US carriers were at sea when we manipulated Japan into attacking us?

Why do you think all of our Admirals - like Nimitz and Mitscher - were CARRIER guys? Hell, just look them up - they were ALL supporters of the carrier, NOT the battle ship. They were all either naval aviators or carrier officers.

Plus, your assertation that we stuck our carriers in front of our battleships is just plain wrong! For one thing, we didn't even HAVE battleships in the Pacific. For another, they wouldn't have been put with the task force anyway because they were to slow to keep up with the carriers.

Step back. This isn't about Japan.

And also, who cares about American subs? They had little impact on Germany. Germany's U-Boats were technologically superior and their naval strategy (particularly Donitz's "wolf pack" strategy) was superior. That's why America couldn't sink one U-Boat until finally taking RN advice.

Even then, there was no way America or any of the Allies would be able to stop the Type XXI and Type XXIII class subs that were later deployed by Germany. They also happened to be the first subs to actually operate entirely submerged.

Step back? You just said that Germany was the only country with sub capability. Do you really think the US was not capable of putting subs in the Atlantic? Thats what you said.

And BTW, German naval power presented LITTLE threat to the US, as MANY sources show. Their surface fleet was next to non existant. No surface fleet means no landing troops on the US mainland.

Did you just ignore the entire part where I stated Hitler delayed atom bomb research due to blitzkrieg victories? It was only because Hitler slowed it down that America could have possibly even caught up.

Sorry, but NO. He could not have done ANYTHING without heavy water, which he didn't have - MAINLY do to Norwiegens and the US.

Getting an army across the Atlantic?

Maybe if the US sunk one U-Boat without RN advice then we can debate this.

Uboats? Since when do U-boats bring MILLIONS of troops across the atlantic?

Get a clue, if you can't bring your soldiers to bear, you can't fight. Germany couldn't get them to the US, thus they could not invade the US.

America had it all timed right by luck.

- yeah, America is always lucky. We are only good inspite of our selves!

If the US declared war on Germany the same time as France and Britain, they would have been devastated.

No, we would not have been devastated. Germany still could not touch the US in any way shape or form. Had we gotten involved sooner, the war would have been over sooner.

It doesn't even matter if your entire population was armed - it's still laughable when I read about the 10-15 Shermans engaging a single Panzer.

Your kidding me right. How the hell is Hitler going to occupy all of the US? It's larger then Europe for God sakes, and thousands of miles away. Then throw in - what - about 100 million + pissed off Americans, all of whom own guns? Hitler didn't have a chance.

I'll give you a hint. War is dominated by LOGISTICS, not strategy, or technology, or tactics. They all mean NOTHING if you don't have the logistics, and Germany DID NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO TRANSPORT, FEED, AND EQUIP it's soldiers in a northern American theater. There is no arguing this, there is no discussing this. He simply could not do it.

What's worse is that the Wermacht put everything on the tanks and mechanized forces. Your entire population might be at arms (mind you, even though you're endowed with the right to bear arms, I find it hard to believe everyone had a ready rifle), but the fact is that the tanks always struck first along with air support from the Luftwaffe, which was THE most powerful air force at the time.

How does Germany get the tanks to US shores? It can't. How does Germany get it's bombers to US shores? It can't. Everything you just mentioned means NOTHING because IT COULDN'T HAPPEN.

Besides, the US airforce had BETTER bombers then Germany and had the MUSTANG as it's best fighter. Germany didn't have a chance.

America timed it right again when Germany was forced to declare war while they were already busy with Britain/Russia.

Ohhh yeah, America got lucky again

Had they not been, it's almost guaranteed that Hitler would conduct a surprise attack - as he had done with almost everyone else.

How the hell is Hitler going to mount a surprise attack with MILLIONS of soldiers, THOUSANDS of tanks, and HUNDREDS of ships from THOUSANDS of miles away by sea?

Sorry, IT COULD NOT BE DONE. You don't just click a botton and have your troops magically apear on US shores - they would have to go across the Atlantic before ANY news of it got to the US PLUS avoiding the US navy.

This is the most unrealistic thing I think I may have ever heard in serious discussion of WWII. Frankly, I am at the point of laughter right now.

Your dislike for America is clouding your thoughts.

[edit on 20-4-2005 by American Mad Man]

Originally posted by Otts
[First of all... if you call "hate" the act of disapproving of a number of elements of US policy, then I guess more than 50 percent of French Canadians "hate" America. But look, we have the right to disagree, don't we? I'm the first to applaud the good things the US does in this world - and it does do a lot -

Well we disagree, but your good post is certainly food for thought my Canadian friend.

Merci beaucoup

Maximu§

I see that simply my mentioning that the US - right now - outsells all of the EU nations by more than 2 to 1 with China in military kit and how come, if anyone wants to complain about the transfer of hi-war-tech there is this total silence over Israel, caused the place to get attacked and go off line for hours?!

Seriously how come the ]proposed relaxation of the EU's arms embargo to China has stirred this ridiculous fuss and yet Israel's deals with China are not mentioned at all.

LA Maximus mentioned the Israelis were kicked out of the JSF project because of this.......

......and given the years they were 'in' the project one can only wonder what they 'got' and what will subsequently be sold and passed over and incorporated into the next gen of Chinese military planes?

IMO this anti-France/EU/Europe is mainly a mere diversionary smokescreen to keep eyes away from the actions of Israel (which, IMO, will go utterly unpunished and with absolutely no sanctions taken despite the additional danger this might result in for US personnel, as per).

SP,

Although we have agreed on many things in the past, I have to disagree on this one.

The US is not covering up for Israel by opposing EU tech sales to China.

They just want two things, to keep the EU subservient and to prevent China having the tech.

As I have said in this thread several times, the only thing that will cause a US/China conflict is the US being stupid. The only area of potential conflict is Taiwan and even that is not worth going to war for.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
The only area of potential conflict is Taiwan and even that is not worth going to war for.

BHR

So if a good friend of yours down the street is gonna get beat up by a Bully, well thats just his tough luck huh? He's not worth it...let him get his a** kicked.

IF thats how you treat your friends Bill.... Well, Im glad Im your enemy , cause it looks like you can't be counted on to back up your friends when the going gets tough. America looks out for her friends and we will stomp-a** on anyone who attacks them...including China.

You might wanna look in the mirror and re-evaluate yourself.

Maximu§

Originally posted by Blackout

If America hadn't lucked out, they wouldn't have obtained the bomb. A German attack on American soil would have shifted the majority of America's resources and attention towards defense rather than developing the atom bomb.

[edit on 20-4-2005 by Blackout]

Uhm... No, but nice try.

The development of the atomic bomb was something that would have continued at all costs. Especially if we were attacked on our own shores. The US spent less than 1 percent (over 2 billion dollars out of the $341 billion spent on WWII) of its war budget on the development of the A-bomb.

I don't see how something that cost less than 1% of the war would have been scrapped over a German invasion.

They knew that once it was finished, they would win the war and the world would change forever in its favor. Even Einstein knew that it would eventually be created and didn't want Hitler to have such power. This is why he asked Roosevelt to start its development.

By ganging up on a bully you become the bully.
Would I jump in for him?
No, he can fight his own battles.
If the bully gets friends to jump in I will help.
If the US wants to go play hard man go ahead, we dont want to play that game anymore.
All it brings is death.

LA_Max,

"So if a good friend of yours down the street is gonna get beat up by a Bully, well thats just his tough luck huh? He's not worth it...let him get his a** kicked.

IF thats how you treat your friends Bill.... Well, Im glad Im your enemy , cause it looks like you can't be counted on to back up your friends when the going gets tough. America looks out for her friends and we will stomp-a** on anyone who attacks them...including China.

You might wanna look in the mirror and re-evaluate yourself."

Yet again you approach the complexities of foreign relations with your usual delightfully innocent sense of child-like naivete.

Do not let me stop you using wildly over-simplified analogies to help you to deal with the scary world out there.

Some of us however can deal with reality as is.

My viewpoint on world affairs bears no resemblance to my dealings with those I hold special.

As one of the minority of Americans who has bothered to travel beyond your shores (admittedly at the taxpayer's expense) I thought you might have realised that it is not the policy of the US to have "friends" but instead to have alliances of common interest and to be constantly reviewing them. This is not an attack on the US, as they are no different from any other country.

Cheers

BHR

You know Bill, some times the most simple analogies are the best ones.....we live in a complex world clogged with point and counter-point and 5 different truths for every story.

I like simple cause I am a simple minded MF'er

Max


[edit on 083030p://111 by LA_Maximus]

American MadMan: You summed up the entire thread here with this single sentence:

The fact of the matter is, should countries who you've helped and protected arm your adversaries for a few shillings?

I almost literally rolled on the floor laughing about this.

You're arguing that France and Germany OWE the USA because you apparently (contrary to actual reality and real history) saved the world from the Nazis in WWII.

Hmmm, let's look at something.

Who armed BOTH Iran and Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War?

Who trains South American military dictators and their deathsquads in their country (it used to be called the School of the Americas, look it up).

Who SUPPORTED the mujaheddin in Afghanistan when they were fighting the Russians?

Who SUPPORTED the dictators Suharto and Pol Pot, among others, who were singlehandedly responsible for MILLIONS of deaths in their own countries?

Who has the depth of ignorance to even SUGGEST that in the balance of fairness, that the USA helps and has helped more countries than it has hindered?

Hmm, you apparently.

Bottom line: The United States of America has HURT the people around the world (the non-Americans) FAR MORE than it has helped them. So if anyone owes anyone anything, you owe the rest of the world big time.

Start by signing the Kyoto Protocols. The ban on Land Mines. The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (which you unsigned).

Or, you can just continue on in your non-reality based world.

and you can wonder why it is impossible for an American to get laid abroad.

Originally posted by Jakomo
and you can wonder why it is impossible for an American to get laid abroad.

Speak for yourself, Ive never had a problem with girls when I was in stationed in Germany. American soldiers like me are always popular in Europe , cause we have a pair between our legs and German babes like that in a Man.

Class dismissed Jakomo....Better luck next time

Maximu§

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
Speak for yourself, Ive never had a problem with girls when I was in stationed in Germany. American soldiers like me are always popular in Europe , cause we have a pair between our legs and German babes like that in a Man.

Class dismissed Jakomo....Better luck next time

Maximu§

Ethier that or the wallet.....
Germany now is much diffrent from germany when you where there.

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
Thank You Germany...we protected you for generations and this is how you repay America?

Thank You France....our boys bled to death on the beaches of Normandy and this is your gratitude?

If a war breaks out between China and America, it looks like America will be facing a PRC military armed with high tech weapons made by our "friends" in Germany and France. Secretary-of-State Rice warned them last week that America defends democracy in the pacific, not the EU.....its OUR boys that will be killed by these weapons!!!

Let that sink in....its American boys who will be facing these weapons.

Un-employment is high in Germany and France and their socialist systems can't compete with the free market.....so what do they do? They sell weapons to whoever has the cash...like a Ho on Sunset Blvd!! Maybe we outta ban Mercedies-Benzs from being shipped here. Anyhow here is the linky:

www.iht.com...


Maximu§

Ok, you have a very odd sense of reality my friend... and perhaps reading would enlightens your bias a little bit.

Here's some facts for you :
www.nyu.edu...

So just as Al Quaida was funded by the C.I.A. (shot yourself in the foot there), China was helped by none other then the U.S to develop their weapons. Future may tell if you did shoot yourself in the foot there as well.

... and if it happen, will just remember the U.S.A as we does France of the XIXth century. An empire from times passed.

Originally posted by Jeffrey Dahmer
China was helped by none other then the U.S to develop their weapons. Future may tell if you did shoot yourself in the foot there as well.

Just curious, how would time tell if we shot ourself in the foot in regards to China? No matter how much many here wish China was our enemy, they are not. China and the U.S. have a symbiotic relationship, regardless of the politics of the minute, both countries would be shooting themselves in the foot by going to war with each other. Are you, like so many doomsday dreamers, suggesting China is going to use it's limited and by far smaller number of nuclear weapons against the U.S.?

Originally posted by 27jd

Originally posted by Jeffrey Dahmer
China was helped by none other then the U.S to develop their weapons. Future may tell if you did shoot yourself in the foot there as well.

Just curious, how would time tell if we shot ourself in the foot in regards to China? No matter how much many here wish China was our enemy, they are not. China and the U.S. have a symbiotic relationship, regardless of the politics of the minute, both countries would be shooting themselves in the foot by going to war with each other. Are you, like so many doomsday dreamers, suggesting China is going to use it's limited and by far smaller number of nuclear weapons against the U.S.?

Indeed, I agree with the fact a Nuclear attack on the U.S would be suicide for China. They would be completely destroyed while U.S would just be greatly crippled. They only have the capacity to destroy a few of the major cities... and the U.S have the capacity to transform China into a deep hole.

Otherwise, their army is greater then yours. You just got to admit this, only their infrastructure is weaker. They could win a ground war anytimes.

But let's get back to the nuclear war games. It just can't happen... on a vast scale, this would all escalade to doomsday indeed. People would take side, perhaps Russia would decide to finish the job China started. No one could tell where it would end. It would be a very quick war, but afterword, it would realise the Einstein prophecy (stick and stones).

[edit on 26-4-2005 by Jeffrey Dahmer]

Originally posted by Jeffrey Dahmer
Otherwise, their army is greater then yours. You just got to admit this, only their infrastructure is weaker. They could win a ground war anytimes.

Sure, if we invaded China, they would have the advantage as far as numbers go. But alot of other factors come into play that do not bold well for China. Let's assume it stays conventional. First, air superiority, in a conventional war, whoever controls the skies has an advantage, and I think you would agree, the U.S. would have the advantage. Second, moving troops, it would take alot to move so many, so if they were planning on invading rather than defending, most of their numbers advantage would be resting at the bottom of the ocean.

It would be a very quick war, but afterword, it would realise the Einstein prophecy (stick and stones).

Agreed. Nuclear war is only an option for those who don't mind suicide.

Well, future will tell.

I think the war on the U.S.A is possibly this third world war to come. There is just way too much deception in the world at the present time. You have not many true allies left. Perhaps a few factual government approved allies, but in a real world situation, go ask if even the british are on your side. They are not. So things got to change... and quickly, or else, someone or everyones might get very upset.

Originally posted by Jeffrey Dahmer
I think the war on the U.S.A is possibly this third world war to come. There is just way too much deception in the world at the present time. You have not many true allies left. Perhaps a few factual government approved allies, but in a real world situation, go ask if even the british are on your side. They are not. So things got to change... and quickly, or else, someone or everyones might get very upset.

We have plenty of allies left, regardless how many cynical folks who frequent conspiracy sites and are in no positions of authority say otherwise (not you specifically). You are suggesting the entire world will cooperate in a war on the U.S.A, so that Russia or China could dictate world policy instead of the U.S.? And that would be better? Just because a few overly dramatic people try and compare the U.S. to nazi Germany, doesn't make it true, and the world's governments know this. We do alot of good things in this world. Besides the fact that a war on the U.S. is not needed and is just not going to happen, we still have an outrageous amount of nuclear weapons to ensure that it doesn't. Both the U.S. and Russia will not be invaded anytime in the near future, and Bush will be gone in just a few short years.

Not to sound completely cynical myself...

but when is the last time your country done "good things in the world"? Kennedy was going to do decent things for the world, but he got killed before he could execute anything serious. After this, it all goes down the drain; sorry to say, this is what I believe.

Name one good thing the U.S done in the world in the last 40 years.