Thank You Germany & France...for the knife in the back!

It was merely clarification. I dont even think I've spoken with Always Learning before, hehe. But I appreciate the sentiment.

Originally posted by LA_Maximus

Don't forget who protected her during the cold war. I still have frost bite on my fingers and toes from patrolling the Eastern Border of Germany, but you go ahead and ridicule my 4 years of service Cargo, it seems to be a national sport in ATS to spit on American soldiers.

I would expect a knife in the back like this from the French, but I dared hoped Germans would be different. I hoped they would look back and say:

-America helped rebuild much of our country after WW II and they stood and protected us from aggression, maybe it would not be a honerable to sell weapons to China.

You protected only a half of Germany. East Germany was under hardcore communist regime.

Yes you helped rebuild a country after you bombed it to stoneage. Factories and infrastructure were not only destroyed during WWII but also after the war, because of fear that facilities like harbors or craines ... have the strategic value to war industry.

Most of the war technology you posses today you owe to the Germans.

Now, who owes who?

Yan,

I think you will find that according to LA_Max the only people who have honour and therefore can sell high tech equipment to the Chinese is the US.

Cheers

BHR

I agree BHR.

US is loosing their supremacy on many aspects of worlds economy, industry, tech developement and services. The only prime position the have left is in sofisticated weaponry and war industry. I bet the US is very anoyed because they are loosing this market too. Other stuff above is migrating in India and China. Kindia represents 1/3 of world popolous and they are becoming good friends very fast. Right now they are planing alliance. China want to return some of land (90.000 km2) back to India in exchange that India stops to support Dalajlama and separatistic movement in Tibet.

WOW, where to begin...


EU arms sales

I think that the EU should not be selling arms to China. Is there a significant chance that China and the US duke it out in the near future? No, I don't think so. None the less, there IS the chance - and I think that should be enough for them to not do this. We ARE still supposed to be allies, and we SHOULD try to look out for each others intrests.

I think it is very dangerous to think that a war between two powers such as China and the US would never happen. Further more, I think it is plain stupid to think that Europe would not get dragged into it (if they didn't start it like the last 2 world wars). Personally, I don't see why this is such an unreasonable request. China has said they would go to war with us over Taiwan - so why help them, even if it is only a chance?

I have also read a lot of posts saying that this is all about money, and that justifies it. Fine - I can deal with that. BUT, and this is a HUGE but - don't go bitch and complain when the US does the same. Remember, it's all about money, every man for themselves. If this is the mentality, then don't get mad when the US has it's way with who ever it wants for economic reasons. Don't complain when the US government decides to sell weapons to your enemies. Don't complain when the US government decides to back Boeing more so then the French can back Airbus and make them go under. Don't complain when we corner the oil market.

On the debt owed to the US by Europe...

The US was the second most important country on the side of the Allies, with Russia being the first. There is no arguing this, there is no debating it. The US was also probably the only reason Germany did not win. Without US backing, Western Europe falls to the Nazi's and Hitler only has to fight a one front war.

I'd also like to take this opertunity to point out how much CHINA owes the US. We almost single handedly freed them from Japan - their mortal enemy. If it weren't for the US, they would be a Japanese colony.

Then there is the cold war. Western Europe owes a great deal to the US. We banded together and took on the USSR side by side, but lets get real - without the US, western Europe is run over by the Russian Bear. This lasted what - 45 years? Without the US you most likely would be under the rule of Nazi Germany or the USSR. Show a bit of gratitude. There is no shame in it. I am greatfull that the UK, Australia, Poland, Italy, and everyone else that helped us out in Iraq. I am greatfull that the better part of the world decided to help in Afghanistan.

The US has been pretty faithfull to our allies in Europe, your economies do not depend on the sale of arms to China, so if we ask you not to do it to help our national security - why after almost 60 years of helping your national security - would you want to give us a collective up yours?

@ LA's post regarding his kid...

I think some of you are taking his words a bit differently then he intended. What I got from it is that he feels that the Europe and to a lesser extent the US has gotten soft, and he does not believe his son to be one of them. I tend to agree with that. I think the Western world in general has gotten soft. Looking back at WWII (to use the current example), the problem snow balled because no one had the backbone to stand up to Hitler before it was too late.

I think that RADICAL Islam is the same scale of threat, even if it does not take the same form of an identifiable nation. I also believe that taking out terrorist cells AND THE NATIONS THEY MIGHT SPONSER THEM now is a key to prevention in the future.

I can also see how China presents the greatest threat from another nation to the US. They have an economy that at the present rate of growth will be able to compete with our own in this century, they have 4 times the population, and they have a potential conflict with us (Taiwan). If you Europeans can't see why we would be upset over arms sales to them, I question your ability to reason.

AMM,

Originally posted by American Mad Man
WOW, where to begin...


EU arms sales

I think that the EU should not be selling arms to China. Is there a significant chance that China and the US duke it out in the near future? No, I don't think so. None the less, there IS the chance - and I think that should be enough for them to not do this. We ARE still supposed to be allies, and we SHOULD try to look out for each others intrests.

I think it is very dangerous to think that a war between two powers such as China and the US would never happen. Further more, I think it is plain stupid to think that Europe would not get dragged into it (if they didn't start it like the last 2 world wars). Personally, I don't see why this is such an unreasonable request. China has said they would go to war with us over Taiwan - so why help them, even if it is only a chance?

I have also read a lot of posts saying that this is all about money, and that justifies it. Fine - I can deal with that. BUT, and this is a HUGE but - don't go bitch and complain when the US does the same. Remember, it's all about money, every man for themselves. If this is the mentality, then don't get mad when the US has it's way with who ever it wants for economic reasons. Don't complain when the US government decides to sell weapons to your enemies. Don't complain when the US government decides to back Boeing more so then the French can back Airbus and make them go under. Don't complain when we corner the oil market.

On the debt owed to the US by Europe...

The US was the second most important country on the side of the Allies, with Russia being the first. There is no arguing this, there is no debating it. The US was also probably the only reason Germany did not win. Without US backing, Western Europe falls to the Nazi's and Hitler only has to fight a one front war.

I'd also like to take this opertunity to point out how much CHINA owes the US. We almost single handedly freed them from Japan - their mortal enemy. If it weren't for the US, they would be a Japanese colony.

Then there is the cold war. Western Europe owes a great deal to the US. We banded together and took on the USSR side by side, but lets get real - without the US, western Europe is run over by the Russian Bear. This lasted what - 45 years? Without the US you most likely would be under the rule of Nazi Germany or the USSR. Show a bit of gratitude. There is no shame in it. I am greatfull that the UK, Australia, Poland, Italy, and everyone else that helped us out in Iraq. I am greatfull that the better part of the world decided to help in Afghanistan.

The US has been pretty faithfull to our allies in Europe, your economies do not depend on the sale of arms to China, so if we ask you not to do it to help our national security - why after almost 60 years of helping your national security - would you want to give us a collective up yours?

@ LA's post regarding his kid...

I think some of you are taking his words a bit differently then he intended. What I got from it is that he feels that the Europe and to a lesser extent the US has gotten soft, and he does not believe his son to be one of them. I tend to agree with that. I think the Western world in general has gotten soft. Looking back at WWII (to use the current example), the problem snow balled because no one had the backbone to stand up to Hitler before it was too late.

I think that RADICAL Islam is the same scale of threat, even if it does not take the same form of an identifiable nation. I also believe that taking out terrorist cells AND THE NATIONS THEY MIGHT SPONSER THEM now is a key to prevention in the future.

I can also see how China presents the greatest threat from another nation to the US. They have an economy that at the present rate of growth will be able to compete with our own in this century, they have 4 times the population, and they have a potential conflict with us (Taiwan). If you Europeans can't see why we would be upset over arms sales to them, I question your ability to reason.

Issue 1 - EU arms sales

I see your point however, why should the US continue to trade with China when the EU should not? I can guarantee you that were they allowed Boeing/Lockheed etc would sell their military wares to China, as they have with their civil.

Issue 2 - On the debt owed to the US by Europe

I can say that I will always thank those young men who came to these shores 60 years ago to remove the tyranny of facism.

What is not going to happen is for Europe to bow to the US for all eternity.

What is not acceptable is to expect everyone to jump on the "lets finish ma daddy's work" bandwagon.

To equate the two is to gravely dishonour those of your countrymen who did fight in WW2

I can guarantee you that were the US to be attacked and require troops to defend its borders or to repel invaders, then you would get them from every country in Europe.

Issue 3 - LA's post regarding his kid

I think you will find that in time of need the young people of today are just as opposed to evil as those 60 years ago.

What they are now though is much smarter. They know what is real and what is propaganda.

The sign of this is the voting levels of those under 30 both in the US and Europe.

Cheers

BHR

I'd also like to take this opertunity to point out how much CHINA owes the US. We almost single handedly freed them from Japan - their mortal enemy. If it weren't for the US, they would be a Japanese colony.

The Soviets defeated the japanese army in Manchuria. US just helped them win faster because they nuked Japan. On the other hand US general MacArthur wanted to nuke China over Korean conflict. President of te US had to intervene personaly. Yep, they owe you.
I owe you, they owe you, everybody owes you.
That is very dangerous. Julius Caesar died because too many people owed him their wealth and positions.

If you truly want to help somebody and then help them, you shouldn't expect or even demand gratitude.

LA_Maximus think of it this way.

My father was a digger in vietnam now should older members of the Australian Vietnam community come to his door step and bow down to his feet thank him for fighting on behalf of the corrupt government in south vietnam , and say sorry for the cheap imported goods (china arent the only low wage state.) that take jobs away from aussies.

I have no doubt that the every day citzen in Germany respects the USA role in winning the cold war just think of the thanks Vietnam vets would get from the people of vietnam just remember there are vets that get less respect then you.

While I don't like European weapons sales to China, I don't like selling weapons to anybody, the idea that Europe is alone is stupid.

washingtontimes.com...

The Washington Times
It is yet to dawn on U.S. gatekeepers that 6.7 percent of Chinese defense imports come from the United States and only 2.7 percent from Europe.

Not only that, the embargo may be lifted but there will still be a 'limit' on the types of things that can be sold.

Cmdr,

That is a great quote seeing as it comes from a conservative paper, which is a staunch Bush and GOP supporter.

Cheers

BHR

[edit on 14-4-2005 by BillHicksRules]

China have the right to build whatever military they want, they'll get it from either an E.U. Country, Russia, the Middle East or America. One way or the other.

Also, maybe if America would not place so many bases near to China they'd not feel the need to protect themselves? Maybe if America did not back Japan over China, they'd not have such problems with you? After all, the American Administration do not admit the Nanjing Massacre happened, so as not to upset the Japanese. I'm sorry, but how would America liked it if people started denying the fact Pearl Harbour happened?

Also America did a lot of harm to China, during the Korean War they actually dehumanized the Chinese, published documents calling them animals making out they were inferior. Also the fact you've taken the role as "World Police" and you decide what is Right or Wrong. I'm sorry but we have the U.N. to do that for us and they make enough mistakes as it is.

China will not "invade" America, that will never happen and as long as America stops defending Japan (which lies), South Korea (which does the same) stops teaching false History (such as why China joined the Korean War), stop the "One Rule for Us and One Rule for You" (Israel selling weapons not being frowned upon as much as the E.U.) but also if America is leading in technology, etc, what do they have to fear that Europe can offer them? It's not like the E.U. could offer technology a head of the American Governments own, now is it?

Also, France and Germany owe you nothing. You owe them nothing. No Country owes another Nation anything. Otherwise, America can be held responsible for a lot of deaths and maybe they should pay up for that?

Native Americans maybe? I'm part of the Kanienkehaka by blood, I was born into that. Maybe if Germany owe you something because you served there, you owe us something? Ever think of that?

300years, between 80 and 300million people, now less than 2million. But you know what, I don't care. I ask for nothing back from you. I ask for nothing back from any America. I've made my own life, as has my family and moved on - maybe you could too? After all, less then 60years ago my family were still being treated like scum for having a different colour to their skin.

It sickens me that you think anyone owes America anything. Every Nation does harm, will do harm, nobody can stop it until we stop this aggressive attitude. I've been to China, they don't hate every westerner. Most of them like us. They don't stop free speech. All of your views are out dated. All they want to do is have America leave them alone and take care of its own Country and fix its own problems instead of dictating to the World what we should be doing.

Issue 1 - EU arms sales

I see your point however, why should the US continue to trade with China when the EU should not? I can guarantee you that were they allowed Boeing/Lockheed etc would sell their military wares to China, as they have with their civil.

It's not trade, it is the trade of arms which they do not have the ability to produce themselves. Most of the problem is that it is computer type stuff - things that will allow them to 'leap' years and billions spent developing them on their own.

Selling a rifle is a bit different then selling, say, missle guidance systems.

And yes, I admit, if Boeing or Lock/mart were allowed to sell these things they would. The difference is they are not.

The fact is, rightly or wrongly, if the EU lifts this trade ban, China WILL get stuff that they can't make themselves right now. And these things DO threaten the US.

Issue 2 - On the debt owed to the US by Europe

I can say that I will always thank those young men who came to these shores 60 years ago to remove the tyranny of facism.

What is not going to happen is for Europe to bow to the US for all eternity.

What is not acceptable is to expect everyone to jump on the "lets finish ma daddy's work" bandwagon.

To equate the two is to gravely dishonour those of your countrymen who did fight in WW2

I can guarantee you that were the US to be attacked and require troops to defend its borders or to repel invaders, then you would get them from every country in Europe.

I understand, and I don't believe that Europe or anyone else should bow to the US. However, more and more I see Americas effort belittled by Europeans. How many millions of Americans died in their name? How many tens of millions since then have stood on call against the USSR? How many TRILLIONS of dollars were spent in part for their defence? What I don't like is this increasing attitude from Europe of "we owe you nothing" and "you didn't do that much for us". The fact is, they have their freedom today mostly because of us.

What SHOULD happen is for Europe to understand that when they sell these weapons, they are betraying an ally that has been through the worst of times, and has done everything in it's power to protect them. If the US sees this as a threat, why would Europe go and help our potential enemy after we sacrificed so much for them? Is a few billion dollars all it takes to betray us? If so, I question if we should have wasted so many of our own on Europe.

Issue 3 - LA's post regarding his kid

I think you will find that in time of need the young people of today are just as opposed to evil as those 60 years ago.

What they are now though is much smarter. They know what is real and what is propaganda.

The sign of this is the voting levels of those under 30 both in the US and Europe.

I do not doubt that the young today are opposed to evil. What I do question though is if the majority of them have what it takes to stand up to evil. Kids these days are very very different from those during, say, WWII. When we were attacked at PH, we had MILLIONS of kids signing up that day. I don't know if the same would happen today.

Frankly, I doubt that the liberal minded people in this country could be counted on for it, and the youth is mostly liberal (although I must say, I was shocked at the number of people I know, who are mostly in their mid 20's, that voted for Bush). That may sound harsh, but it is simply an opinion based on observation.

AMM,

Issue 1 – EU Arms Sales

It is trade no matter what you think. China and the EU buy and sell more than simply arms.
As for selling that which China does not have. Well DUH!!. Sorry for the Simpson-esque putdown but if China had this it would not be buying it. Another point is, why should they not have it? Most of the technological leaps by the US have been because you bought in technology or the people with the knowledge to develop it. Why should China not have the goods if the have the dough? If you do not want to go to war with China then don’t.

Issue 2 – Europe’s debt to the US

I have said I thank those who served in Europe in WW2.

As for those serving here in the Cold War it was because it suited the US economically and politically. It was not out of some desire to protect Europeans but rather to prevent the USSR from gaining anymore influence around the world. How do I know this? Look at all the proxy wars fought between the US and the USSR on every continent (except Antarctica). As I said above, you do not want a war with China then do not have one. There are few if any friction points that are not politically created or motivated.

Issue 3 – Kids today

As I said kids are smarter not less patriotic. Pearl Harbour was as much about the propaganda as the act itself. Had the 911 attacks been by a recognised country you would have seen the same response at Recruiting Offices across the states. That is an opinion based on observations.

Cheers

BHR

as posted by Odium
Also, France and Germany owe you nothing. You owe them nothing. No Country owes another Nation anything. Otherwise, America can be held responsible for a lot of deaths and maybe they should pay up for that?

You know, your a pretty intelligent guy, Odium, but there is a discerned trend in your postings and comments and thats a insinuated disgust with the US. Am I right or am I wrong? Cause based on what you have mentioned above, the word 'hypocrisy' comes to mind. The UK [aka: Britain] and Europe [aka: Spain, France, Italy, Portugal, etc, etc.] have spread more death and destruction than any other nations on the face of this planet and yet, you make such a bold statement as I have quoted above. Interesting or ironic? Should 'old Europe' [Britain/UK included] be held accountable for this? Should they have to pay? Allow me to remind you, that your meddlings and material raping of Africa alone speak volumes for what I am implying. The sucking sound heard in Africa today is directly connected to 'old Europe', no?

Lets try this one next:

Native Americans maybe? I'm part of the Kanienkehaka by blood, I was born into that. Maybe if Germany owe you something because you served there, you owe us something? Ever think of that?

Excuse me? Umm, no, we don't owe you anything. Cause if we did, then the Europeans owe you a hellva' lot more than we supposedly do. In the name of Enlightenment and colonialism [greed], 'old Europe' once again strikes. Question: the official history books indicate that when 'old Europe' landed in the 'new world' they infected how many? That infection killed how many? You've killed and suppressed how many? All in the name of 'colonialism' and Enlightenment. What the US did was nothing compared to those numbers.

300years, between 80 and 300million people, now less than 2million. But you know what, I don't care.

The above is in reference to? Please clarify.

Also America did a lot of harm to China...

Really?
Again, Odium, you forgeting history?
Opium Wars ring a bell anywhere in your mind?
Again, 'old Europe' has created and done more harm than any nation, including the US.

...during the Korean War they actually dehumanized the Chinese, published documents calling them animals making out they were inferior. Also the fact you've taken the role as "World Police" and you decide what is Right or Wrong. I'm sorry but we have the U.N. to do that for us and they make enough mistakes as it is.

"Dehumanization" is utilized by all sides in war. The Japanese were viewed as thick-glassed, small-sized, sub-humans. The Germans 'dehumanized' the Slavs, Pols, Jews, etc.
The UK and 'old Europe' dehumanized Native Indians and Africans.
The list can go on, Odium.
Your point is what: to point at simply one nation while failing to check yourself by referencing history?

Also, maybe if America would not place so many bases near to China they'd not feel the need to protect themselves?

Huh?
Please.
This has nothing to do with China seeking arms the world over. This has nothing to do with why China is building up its military. You speak with forked-tongue.





seekerof

[edit on 14-4-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Frankly, I doubt that the liberal minded people in this country could be counted on for it, and the youth is mostly liberal.

I'd say the above is a fair and accurate statement. You'll find that those progressive thinking and intelligent young men and women in America today won't blindly run into a recruitment centre based on what the TV showed them pictures of the night before. You'll also find they won't be swayed by nationalistic propaganda or corny patriotism.

[edit on 14-4-2005 by cargo]

Originally posted by Odium
China have the right to build whatever military they want, they'll get it from either an E.U. Country, Russia, the Middle East or America. One way or the other.

Yes, China DOES have the right to build any military they want. I agree

HOWEVER, what you said about where they would get the technology from is simply wrong. Russia does not have the technology of the EU or US. Everything in the ME is from Russia or China. What they are doing is attempting to aquire weapons which they can not themselves make or aquire from Russia.

Also, maybe if America would not place so many bases near to China they'd not feel the need to protect themselves?

Maybe if CHINA hadn't ATTACKED SOUTH KOREA and BACKED NORTH KOREA we wouldn't be there, now would we? Maybe if CHINA didn't threaten to ATTACK TAIWAN we wouldn't be there, would we? We are there because of their own actions. They have been hostile, and we have kept them in check. If they were some innocent little country, there would be no hostilities. It takes two to tango buddy, and in this case, CHINA is the agressor. The US has done nothing but DEFEND countries from China and those backed by China.

Maybe if America did not back Japan over China, they'd not have such problems with you?

Oh yeah, so I guess after WWII we should have just up and left Japan? Give me a break - of COURSE we back Japan over China. Japan has a PUBLICALLY STATED LAW that does not allow it to be agressive. China has attacked South Korea, and backed North Vietnam and North Korea. They also are a threat to attack Taiwan.

After all, the American Administration do not admit the Nanjing Massacre happened, so as not to upset the Japanese. I'm sorry, but how would America liked it if people started denying the fact Pearl Harbour happened?

I agree that is outrageous - still though, China has it's own deamons. They should get over it, move on, and STOP THREATENING EVERYONE IN THEIR REGION.

Also America did a lot of harm to China, during the Korean War they actually dehumanized the Chinese, published documents calling them animals making out they were inferior.

Booo hooo hooo, we made them feel bad

Give me a break. How many HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Chinese came flooding oer the boarder in the Korean war, attacking a perfectly PEACEFULL country? The fact is they WERE animals (read up on how they treat prisoners) and they WERE inferior (they had overwhelming numerical superiority and got driven back to the original boarder, thus were defeated). If calling them names was the worst that happened to them, they are lucky - especially after our boys had just got done doing their dirty work getting rid of the Japanese.

Also the fact you've taken the role as "World Police" and you decide what is Right or Wrong. I'm sorry but we have the U.N. to do that for us and they make enough mistakes as it is.

We are not the world police. We do what is best for us, just like every other country. And guess what, I don't give a flying # about the UN - if I had it my way it would be disbanded.

China will not "invade" America, that will never happen and as long as America stops defending Japan (which lies), South Korea (which does the same) stops teaching false History (such as why China joined the Korean War), stop the "One Rule for Us and One Rule for You" (Israel selling weapons not being frowned upon as much as the E.U.) but also if America is leading in technology, etc, what do they have to fear that Europe can offer them? It's not like the E.U. could offer technology a head of the American Governments own, now is it?

Ohhh yeah - everyone lies but China What a joke. Why should we stop defending Japan? So China can attack them? We defend them because they are our ally and friend. China could be too. All they need to do is stop being so damn threatening to every other country close to them.

Like I said, Europe has technology close to our own, which China does not. Why should our ally sell us out? We never did it to them.

Also, France and Germany owe you nothing. You owe them nothing. No Country owes another Nation anything. Otherwise, America can be held responsible for a lot of deaths and maybe they should pay up for that?

How do you go from talking about owing a debt of gratitude and loyalty - which the other side has shown - to this crap? There is no connection what so ever.

Native Americans maybe? I'm part of the Kanienkehaka by blood, I was born into that. Maybe if Germany owe you something because you served there, you owe us something? Ever think of that?

Uh, sorry. the Kanienkehaka never lost millions of people and spent TRILLIONS of dollars DEFENDING ME. The US owes you and your tribe NOTHING.

300years, between 80 and 300million people, now less than 2million. But you know what, I don't care. I ask for nothing back from you. I ask for nothing back from any America. I've made my own life, as has my family and moved on - maybe you could too? After all, less then 60years ago my family were still being treated like scum for having a different colour to their skin.

Like I said, you and your people never did anything for the US. We fought, we had war (just like the US and Germany). We then made up (although from your tone I doubt you have).

And BTW, I couldn't care less about your plight because of your skin. BOTH sides of my family had the same problem because of where they were from. Get over it. EVERYONE deals with it. The Jews, the American Indians, the Chinese, the Irish - everyone has had their own problems because of their race. YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL.

It sickens me that you think anyone owes America anything. Every Nation does harm, will do harm, nobody can stop it until we stop this aggressive attitude. I've been to China, they don't hate every westerner. Most of them like us. They don't stop free speech. All of your views are out dated. All they want to do is have America leave them alone and take care of its own Country and fix its own problems instead of dictating to the World what we should be doing.

Well, I value loyalty. The US has been LOYAL to Europe. We have spilt blood for them. I would expect that they honor our MUTUAL situation, and help us out.

As for China - I don't care if they hate us or not. What I DO care about is their agressive intentions.

And then you say all my "views are outdated." Really? Which one oh knower of all? All China wants is for the US to stop backing everyone up that they want to threaten. Guess what TOO BAD.

The only one DICTATING here is China. If South Korea wants us there, why can't we be there? They are their own country after all. How about Japan? They are their own country.

You are a hypocrit.

Originally posted by cargo

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Frankly, I doubt that the liberal minded people in this country could be counted on for it, and the youth is mostly liberal.

I'd say the above is a fair and accurate statement. You'll find that those progressive thinking and intelligent young men and women in America today won't blindly run into a recruitent centre based on what the TV showed them pictures of the night before. You'll also find they won't be swayed by nationalistic propaganda or corny patriotism.

Maybe you should look at the CONTEXT of my statement. I used Pearl Harbor as an example. I don't think that Pearl Harbor was nationalistic propaganda or corny patriotism.

We were, in fact, attacked.

Try sticking to the context of what I said - you are better then to try and spin what I said.

Are you saying that the response to Pearl Harbour was that of a completely right-wing citizenry?

AMM,

Why do the US continue to rile the Chinese by supporting the Taiwanese?

Can you not see the similarities between Taiwan and Cuba?

Cheers

BHR

BillHicksRules....
Any reason why the US shouldn't support Taiwan?
If China has problem with our support Taiwan, then whose problem is it?





seekerof