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US approves sale of F-16s to Pakistan

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posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 02:08 PM
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Originally posted by SABRE
BTW as long as I am member of this forum, never insult the pilot who shot down his own friend (real life friend) in a friendly fire.

Why not?? While you in the above post can openly mock MiG29 own kills??!!
hypocracy



The 1st F-16 took off from Peshawar the other one from Sargodah. Niether new both were there. It was cloudy day & Russians who realy got scared of of F-16s hid him self in the clouds & tried to scape. One saw it & went into the clouds to bring it out but the other who did not knw that his friend was also in the clouds fired the missile which apprently hit his own friend. They were not allowed to use the radio & were to maintain the silence. But as soon as the pilot realized that he has shot his own friend he stayed there in the hostile Afghan airspace & called for rescue team. He flew there fo 30+ mins while Afgans & Russians had a great chance at that moment to shoot him down while he was circuling his friend.

sob sob !!


Unlike IAF our pilots dont run off leaving there friends behind.
Need I remind u off 1965 Gnat, Sikan inncident or IAF dont talk abt it since it brings shame to them?


please remind me for I dont know wtf you're talking about..

Btw while we're talking about pilots ditching, i can also remind you about the F104 starfighters that dropped fuel tanks and afterburnered their way back the safety at the site of the much more manueverable Gnats..
Also maybe everybody needs to know that the PAF kept its F104s in IRAN because they were hesitant to keep their jets on their own territory in fear of canberra bombing raids..Iran was out of India's political strike reach. and so the pakis figured the F104s would be safe there




lol ... Indians have always under estimated PAF & PAF has always kicked their behinds. 1965 PAF managed to bring down all intruding IAF jets with just on class of AirCraft. The F-86 SABRE (one occassion MM Alam shot 5 IAF hunters down in less than one minute...he lives in my city now
)& even though we lost our right wing of the country in 1971, the west wing AirForce again kicked IAF's behind.

I know your MM Alam.. He's counted parked runway kills as A2A kills!!

About the dowing of "all IAF jets".. well thats ball$.. the IAF freel yconducted bombing raids ni the latter portion of the War on bases as far in as NWFP and Baluchistan...
Infact Karachi was bombed ever so often from land as well as sea..
(Alize/ Hawker Hawk)




PAF is not only the best Islamic Nation AirForce their pilots are best in the world. They are so best that UAE & KSA doesnt allow their local Pilots to fly their fighters but PAF leased pilots only. For 50 years KSAAF & UAEAF aircrafts have been flewen by PAF pilots. During Arab Israel war many Arab Nations called on Pakistan to send their pilots since their pilots were not trained well. As a result PAF pilots on Syrian & Egyption fighters shot down many Israeli Mirages with MiG-21s. All PAF pilots returned home safely after the war but were later recalled to train Arab Nations.

Hear this all!!
Hear this all!!
Best pilots in the world.. Not he USAF, Not The IsAF, Not the RAF, and hell no def not the InAF, Its the PAF..
I've given you enough credit by saying that the PAF is the most proffessional muslim AF in the world, be happy with that.. don't make a fool of yourself..
And don't gloat on superiorit yover arab AFs.. they're incompetent I tell you.. the whole lot of them..




Today they fly KSA's F-15s, Tornedoes. UAEAF Mirage2000-9, F-16 Block60E/F. They have flew MiG-29 (8 mig-29s are also based in Pakistan gifted by Ukrain 2 yrs ago for training & aggressor sqdns). PAF pilots have flew on Ukrainian Su-27 & might just have done so on PLAAF Su-30s.
3 pilots have been awarded an honor by three different govts for flying almost all the fighters there are (not the new generation fighters).


Bravo


Anyways what the hack m i doing ??? I am arguing. I have not done this since i was a kid. lol....Indians can realy drive any one crazy (no offence)....


IMHO i think you are a crazy kid but thats just me..




Considering the man & not the machine, I say PAF beats IAF hands down.


I think you're the only one out here who thinks so

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 1-4-2005 by Daedalus3]




posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 02:30 PM
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Yes I will cool down after this one last statement..

Again about ditching ones compatriots in battle..
What about all the Pak Army Northern Light Infantry soldiers who died in Kargil??...
Pakistan refused to even accept them as their own, forget about claiming the bodies..
They weren't intellignece operatives to be disowned!!!
what about their families??
How dare you treat your own men with such dishonour!!


It was in the good spirit of the Indian Army that we gave those soldiers a decent
burial!!!

Shameful I say!!


Don't ever discredit the indian military with "desertion".. for you have committed the greatest desertion on your own men..



posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 02:32 PM
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Daedalus3 for a Bhindi u realy are a pain in the ass.

Anyways...my I dont live in one city in Pakistan. U can say that two cities I usualy can be found in are Karachi & Hyderabad so I would also say I from these two cities. Otherwise I am on constant move.

Media business & media related work. My uncle is a national level polition here. When he was Finance Minister he took my cousins & me to Sargodah. There I first visited F-16s. Than my friend joined the force he became friends with couple of F-16 pilots (They were his seniors though, very senior). The two pilots flew F-16s to Karachi on routine mission & I happened to be on the base with my friend. He introduced me to the F-16 pilots & I became good friends with them too, so they decided me to give tour of their F-16B two seater with glass shut down.

Sorry if i said i set on Su-30..it was Su-27. Ukrainian. There are 8 MiG-29s at Sargodah & 2 Su-27s at Kamra gifted by Ukrain. They are used as aggressors/for training purpose. I have visited Kamra twice when my uncle was in ruling party...Kamra needed finance for overhauling facility upgrade so he went there to assess the amount needed. On the 2nd trip to Kamra, I first saw Su-27.

BTW my friend told me to join this community, he said there are some good growen up Amreicans who give good feedback & updates on AirCrafts on technical bases. But yet again I have been met by childish Indians who make poor debate. Look what u made me do. U made me look like u ppl. I do not debat or argue on technical bases. I listen to them, read them, assess them & keep it in my database. But I guess u indians have way to bring ppl arround out & fight. No wounder Pakistan, China & latest additions Nepal, Bangladesh, Bhutam, Mayanmar are so pissed on u ppl. Enemies every where.

& BTW there is a saying here. Where there are dogs there is $H!T, so dnt go where the dogs are or the $H!T will be on u. The other Pakistani probably left so he could save him self from the $H!T.


I know its hard for u ppl to except the truth, but hay its not my problem. Do what ye wana do , say what ye wana say. You will never be able to erase the history & u will never be able to stop it from repeating it self again.

Abt few hrs ago, I was a stonch Indo-Pak friend ship supporter but with in few mins u ppl have changed my thoughts.

[edit on 1-4-2005 by SABRE]



posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 02:46 PM
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Does Pakistan has any identity as a nation ?
Her long term customer is the US while China is her short term

It makes me laugh when a Pakistani says “ we don't leave our friends behind”
During the Kargil war the Pak authorities (I wont call them government ) even refused to accept the dead bodies of their army men …..shame shame !

During the Bangladesh war Indian army made the Pak army run through the roads of Dhaka bare footed with out their shirts …..shame for a nation shame for her army

just a few years ago the Indian Pilots shot down a Pakistani Adratic ….Pakis will say that it was merely a training plane ……..but all know how inferior the Pak pilots were in comparison to Indian Pilots

and in the last battle Indian army drove back all those Pakistani beggar Army from Kargil……… its takes a lot of courage for a Pakistani to debate with an Indian after such an embarrassment …Bravo

(lets forget about Indian Economy else the Pakistani will have nothing to say)



posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by SABRE


Abt few hrs ago, I was a stonch Indo-Pak friend ship supporter but with in few mins u ppl have changed my thoughts.

[edit on 1-4-2005 by SABRE]


Im a bhindi.. you're a bl))dy randi!!

Question btw..
How can you be a indo-pak supporter if you like to diss indians so bad?
I never dissed the PAF or anything..
This post had nothing to do with the IAF being better or worse than the PAF..
All those statements were made by NON INDIANS..
But you had to let your inferiority complex get the better of you...pity..
Infact if you go back a couple of posts the only pro pak comments were byME you twit!!
This a major loop hole in your arguement..Exposes you for the fraud that you are..
Really, how can you be a indo-pak friendship supporter when you openly and unprovokedly diss India..??

Forbid others from mentioning friendly kills of the PAF F-16s but openly mock the MiG29 kills..
Your so called "grown up" american friends waste Pakistan too.. call it a Shah Iran type forgettable mistake



[edit on 1-4-2005 by Daedalus3]



posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by SABRE


Abt few hrs ago, I was a stonch Indo-Pak friend ship supporter but with in few mins u ppl have changed my thoughts.

[edit on 1-4-2005 by SABRE]


Im a bhindi.. you're a bl))dy randi!!

Question btw..
How can you be a indo-pak supporter if you like to diss indians so bad?
I never dissed the PAF or anything..
This post had nothing to do with the IAF being better or worse than the PAF..
All those statements were made by NON INDIANS..
But you had to let your inferiority complex get the better of you...pity..
Infact if you go back a couple of posts the only pro pak comments were byME you twit!!
This a major loop hole in your arguement..Exposes you for the fraud that you are..
Really, how can you be a indo-pak friendship supporter when you openly and unprovokedly diss India..??

Forbid others from mentioning friendly kills of the PAF F-16s but openly mock the MiG29 kills..
Your so called "grown up" american friends waste Pakistan too.. call it a Shah Iran type forgettable mistake



[edit on 1-4-2005 by Daedalus3]


I dint diss respect the IAF or Indians untill u showed up.

Infact if u see my first pos, I said that when we have significant number of F-16 Block 52+ & 60 we will go to a war game with India (by that I was being friendly)...& I also gave a tumbs up
to PAF & IAF Both.


U took me for a ride & my mistake was to get on to the ride. Realy, u & ur partner did not take any thing more than seconds to change my thoughts


If u dont knw..I have always liked MiG-29s & Sukhois. I have seen them & sat in them (again..from Ukrainian, in Pakistan). & believe me Pakistani pilots also love it. I dont mock fighters & fighter Aircrafts. U made me do it. I have respect for every fighter including MiG-15 which has had the highest attrition rate in the history of aviation.



posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 03:35 PM
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Okay forget.. make pace..
Gore logon ke samne jhagadna nahi..
An btw prelude is not my partner..
He's russian..



posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
Okay forget.. make pace..
Gore logon ke samne jhagadna nahi..
An btw prelude is not my partner..
He's russian..


Forgivin & forgotten


Hope u have no hard feelings.



posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by rapier28
How does this affect internal development within India?

Would India buy less LCA's and hold back on the MCA?


Short answer: it doesn't.

Long answer: India going for F-18s is a long stretch indeed. There is simply no requirement for an aircraft like the F-18.

That aside, the MRCA (Multi Role Combat Aircraft) tender that India is putting out is of a different class than both the LCA and the MCA. The LCA is a light, single-engined cheap multirole aircraft. It is to supplement squadron increase in the IAF that by 2015 will comprise 1.5X more combat sqns. This a/c will replace older tranche MiGs (FLs) that have already been retired. The upgrade of the newer model MiG-21s to Bison std will serve till the mid 2010s. By this time according to production schedule, the LCA Tejas will have succeded in replacing all MiG-21s (incl Bison) as well as its reqired IAF sqn increase allotment. Its role will be similar to MiG-21s, MiG-23/27s in IAF service today.

The MRCA is to replace retired MiG-23s, MiG-27s, Jaguars as well as augmenting force levels from squadron increase. The role of the MRCA aircraft will as the name suggest be multi-role, both taking over the attack-tasked aircraft (-23/27, Jaguars) as well as the fighter/escort roles assigned to the MiG-29s. The MRCA will basically continue the role the Mirage-2000 aircrafts in IAF service. The attack-tasked aircraft in IAF service (-23/27, Jaguars) have little fighter/air superiority/escort capability, as they are designed as only attack aircraft. Replacing these aircraft by 2015 with the MRCA will give considerable more mission flexability to the IAF.

The MCA (Medium Combat Aircraft) is in the planning stages right now. It is a development of the LCA program and is a larger, two engined aircraft very similar in role to the F-35 will be in America: that of a stealthy, attack-oriented aircraft with secondary air-to-air capabiltiy; however its primary role is ground-attack. This is India's next-generation (5th) attack aircraft project. This will be expected to replace the last of the remaining Jaguars, Mirage-2000H/TH, etc. in the 2015-2020 timeframe. Depending on what roles are required in the IAF by that time will affect the role it will be designed for.

It should be noted that it is already confirmed that India has invested in the PAK-FA/T-50 5th generation fighter project. Reports say that a flying prototype should be had by 2007, and that production can be expected to commence by 2009. It is not known how many IAF will procure, but the role of this aircraft can be extrapolated from fleet production schedules. The PAK-FA will be similar in role to the F-22 in American service: that of a stealthy air-superiority fighter with secondary attack capability; but its primary role is air-superiority. In IAF service this take over from the Su-30MKI the strategic air-superiority role, freeing the MKI for its long-range strike role, which is currently tasked with IAF's attack and multirole aircraft. The MKI will soon be able to carry 3 Brahmos missiles and other advanced weaponry, and freeing the MKI to fully embrace this role will significantly enhance IAF's strategic strike capability (especially maratime patrol/strike, which MKIs are already tasked for.)

By 2040, IAF is aiming for PAK-FA for stealthy air superiority; MCA for stealthy attack; Su-30MKI Mk.? for long-range multirole; MRCA for multirole; LCA for short-range multirole. This fits into the IAF doctrine of low-medium-high force levels of [LCA/MRCA]-[MRCA/MKI/MCA/\]-[MKI/MCA/PAK-FA] respectively.


Sabre,
Your analysis of the F-16 v. MKI is a somewhat decent one -- however plagiarized from the Pakistani Defense Forum, it is. However, there are several errors in your overall logic:
1. You are comparing future F-16s that Pakistan will get versus IAF's current (Mk.1) MKI fleet. The F-16s that PAF will get will comprise of mk.1 version 1-2sqn assembled in the US by 2008-9, and the rest assembled wherever, later. By this time, the MKI will have evolved into its Mk.3 version. This upgrade process is already confirmed to include AESA radar and capability modernization (range, targeting/firing capabilities); advanced weapons (long range Akash, KS-172 BVRAAMs, etc.); LPI radar technology, with both Russia and India are developing; next-generation (5th) EW/avionics suite; greater %composition of composites, RAM materials, well as active radar-canceling technology, lowering its RCS.) ....needless to say all of which would increase MKI's potency several fold, as well as address the capability advantage discrepancy your future-F-16 candidate you have mentioned. Here's one source, of many I can provide.

2. In terms in terms of weapons, radar capabilities of this future-inducted PAF F-16, many assumptions of yours (like AN/APG-68, AMRAAM), it is very doubtful if Pakistan will even/ever get such weapons from America. And if they do, it/its equivalent would be for the future. Also considering that these F-16s are to be manufactured/supplied by America, as well as being governed my extremely strict export-control laws now on the books; it is very doubtful indeed that any time of platform integration with weapons of Chinese origin will ever take place, which could potentially supply Pakistan radars, weapons that US will not.

3. The current MKI's jamming technology that you've compared PAF's potential F-16s to is not Russian, which you so easily dismiss, but the EW system actually of mainly Israeli origin, incidently derived from the one found on Israel's F-16I Sufa, but with some Indian tech. The ECM system is likewise Indo-Israeli. And, planned upgrades aside with later tranche MKIs to be inducted, there's no way Pakistan will get any similar technology from America, Israel, or anywhere else.

4. WVR, sorry but MKI will eat the F-16 up; with superior weapons, Helmet-mounted sights (which you omitted), more powerful EW suite, far more maneuverability, etc. The F-16's non-stronger "strengths" you have listed hardly make MKIs WVR superiority a "non-issue."

5. I'm not going to even address your COPE-India analysis. The same inaccuracies are being paraded around yet again. Interested parties can refer to the 5(!) COPE-India ex threads where I have addressed/debunked those misconceptions.

6. As for the LCA, if you have any doubts about this program, please go to the LCA thread that exists and discuss there. Your claim that IAF "will never" induct the LCA shows how incredibly little you know about the subject.




Prelude,
The whole literacy, etc. is not only a complete non-issue, but your conclusions of the politics of Indian defense procurements is completely illogical. I won't go on tangent discussing it because it has already been justly done so by RedBrown, but food for thought regardless: at current levels, India's literacy, etc. will reach Russias within 20 years. That is not counting the greater levels of literacy achieved each succeeding year, which will grow larger long into the foreseeable future.

The whole Kashmir issue is another topic altogether. Perhaps you can post a new thread on the subject so it doesn't get divert from topic here. I'll be happy to correct your inaccuracies.

And frankly, your comments about India being a "controlled democracy" (whatever the hell that means), versus Russia being a paragon of democratic action is laughable. We can further discuss that in your Kashmir thread.


-Raj



posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 08:34 PM
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Oh, and Sabre, I just noticed this...

Are you seriously claiming that Ukrainian MiG-29s and Su-27s were ever deployed to Pakistan, and further that you "sat" in them?



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 03:32 AM
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Originally posted by rajkhalsa2004
Oh, and Sabre, I just noticed this...

Are you seriously claiming that Ukrainian MiG-29s and Su-27s were ever deployed to Pakistan, and further that you "sat" in them?


There are 8 MiG-29s in Pakistan, also remember there is a whole sqdn of MiG-29 in USAF. USA initialy had aquired 12 MiG-29 & 3 MiG-21s from some country I dont remember. Later after the fall of USSR, Ukrain got away with Russian Nuke capability, test sites, Ordinance factories & military aviation overhauling & production facility but Ukrain still worked under license from Rusuia even though they could have done it on their own ignoring Russia since they had the tech. Anyways, USA asked Ukrain for new & latest versiob of MiG-29s (abt 12, I think) which Ukrain did give to US. Both deny it. Later Ukrain extended hand of friendship to Pakistan when Pakistani Nawaz Sharif became PM for the 1st time & signed trade & diplomatic relations with Ukrain along with arms dealing. It was than that Ukrain gave us 4 MiG-29s as a gift while we bought additional 4 from them. Later to asses Sukhois, since india was evaluation them, we bought 2 Su-27 from Ukrain. Ukrain agrees on selling Pakistan 8 MiG-29s but says they sold only 1 Su-27 while there are two.

Now how i sat in them..read my posts again. 1st I am media related person. Than my uncle was finance minister. Kamra needed finance for overhauling facility upgrade & my uncle too me with him.He wanted to assess the needs & wanted me to update him on fighters since he knew nothing abt them. There I saw Su-27s for the 1st time & they also allowed me to sit in it since i was closely related to Finance Minister.
MiG-29s I saw at Sargodah again I had visited with my uncle.

The 8 MiG-29 & 2 Su-27 are not fighters. They are aggressors. We use them for training & essassments. They are stripped down versions & if taken to combat even IAF MiG-21 Bison will shoot them down. They r not even BVR.

Now read my posts again. I said I have sat on F-16 & Su-27 not MiG-29. They wont allow any one near MiG-29. See how I got to sit on F-16.

Also take notice that we have deals with Ukrain on tanks. They provide us tank engines for Al-Khalid (Which Russia wont do). Now Ukrian-China-Pakistan are considering on going to make new version of Tanks & also BVR missile systems.

[edit on 2-4-2005 by SABRE]



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 05:29 AM
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Ukraine has hopped on the subcontinental defence sale band wagon..

Only 2 other countries I think provide/will provide both nations (In and Pak) with military hardware..France and the US.. (The UK also ??)



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 08:55 AM
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Su-30 MKI's will be stealthy to the Pak AF, just one 's squadron of MKI's will finish off the pakistani AF




Su-30 MKI's virtual stealth using super menuverability

From an interview with designer-general of the AOOT "OKB Sukhoi" Mikhail Simonov

vayu-sena.tripod.com...


Q :How is that that supermaneuverability leads to the reduction of the aircraft's visibility on the radar screen?

A:"The Su-30 MKI's supermaneuverability should be looked at as a system of maneuvers for close aerial combat. Once the pilot receives a signal that his plane is being tracked by an enemy radar, the first thing he needs to do is to go vertical. While gaining altitude and losing speed the aircraft starts to disappear from the screens of radars that use the Doppler effect. 10 However, the opponent is no fool either and will counter by pitching his aircraft upward as well. By that time our plane is going vertical and its speed approaches zero. But all Doppler radars can recognize only a moving target. If the aircraft speed is zero or simply low enough to prevent the enemy radar from calculating the Doppler component, for the enemy our aircraft will disappear. He may still be able to track us visually, but he will not be able to launch a radar-guided missile (either active or semi-active), simply because the missile's seeker would not pick-up the target."




posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
the pakistani AF is currently the largest truckload of crap. the F-16's are block 15, that were sold to them in 1982.

Pakistani AF inventory


Pakistan will be a failed state by 2015 : CIA >> source



sabre please read the quoted parts before posting..


Also : US IS NOT SELLING PAKISTAN ANY BVR AMRAAM's. only sidewinder's for the F-16's.


An F-16 without BVR msslies is like a gun without bullets. Pak can have them, if they want to..

Su-30MKI's have really long range weapons. coupled with the israeli PHALCON AWACS (compareable to the E-3, according to israeli sources), Pakistan AF is a gonner.

and pakistan's attempt to get some swedish small scale AWACS has been turned down. (if u know).

look at what the pakistan AF have got, before u post.
even the indian navy with their sea harriers will be able to finish off the Pak AF, and its islamic pilots in a matter of seconds.



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 09:07 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
A:"The Su-30 MKI's supermaneuverability should be looked at as a system of maneuvers for close aerial combat. Once the pilot receives a signal that his plane is being tracked by an enemy radar, the first thing he needs to do is to go vertical. While gaining altitude and losing speed the aircraft starts to disappear from the screens of radars that use the Doppler effect. 10 However, the opponent is no fool either and will counter by pitching his aircraft upward as well. By that time our plane is going vertical and its speed approaches zero. But all Doppler radars can recognize only a moving target. If the aircraft speed is zero or simply low enough to prevent the enemy radar from calculating the Doppler component, for the enemy our aircraft will disappear. He may still be able to track us visually, but he will not be able to launch a radar-guided missile (either active or semi-active), simply because the missile's seeker would not pick-up the target."


This is the largest BS I ever read. If hope the Sukhoi designers have not meant it seriously. Even if it worked (and it doesn't - or you really think radars can detect only moving targets?) all what enemy pilot needs to do is to continue flying, while SU-30 is making weird manuvers only consuming fuel. The Su-30 still needs to resume normal flight, or how long do you think are they able to sustain zero speed.?



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 09:09 AM
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u have no clue of the LCA 's tech level, check this out and educate your ignorant self : www.abovetopsecret.com...

paste this on your wall before u ever post again :




"Lt. General Niazi, signs the Instrument of Surrender in the presence of Lt. General Aurora(Left, seated). Standing from left is Vice Admiral N. Krishnan, Air Marshal H.C. Dewan, Lt. Gen. Sagat Singh and Major General J.F.R. Jacob."


read : The MKI possess many advantages over F-16C and F/A-18E/F


PAKISTANI'f F-16's OWN GOAL >> this is funny, i assure one and all




On April 29,1987 2 PAF F-16s were scambled to intercept a strike package on a mission to interdict Pakistan supported Mujahideen (Islamic Mercenary) operations that were launched against the Soviet troops and the pro-Soviet afganistan government. The battle resulted in a F-16 kill for Pakistan and the official explanation has been that the pilot (who ejected safely) was shot down by his own wingman.

On April 29,1987, L/C Pochitalkin led a flight of four MiG-23s to mine mountain path under Mujahedeen control in the Djavara region,to the south of Host. These routes were used to supply weapons and ammunition to the dykhi(ghosts-Russian translation of Farsi 'dyshman' meaning bandit) who blockaded the town. The strikes delivered 1,100lb(500 kg) bombs onto the highland passes effectively blocking the way for the arms caravans. The MiG-23s were usually armed with up to four KMGU (Ronteyner Malogabaritnyh Gruzov - small weapon container) each carrying 24 anti-personal mines.


PAF F-16s: Own Goal?

At the place where the Griffons would have to 'work' (meaning 'to execute an order' in the Russian Air Force), Mujahedeen had many and varied air defence weapons including Chinese built 12.7mm DShK machine guns, and 20mm Oerlicon guns with a range of 6600 ft. And from 1986, Dykhi used General Dynamics' Stinger shoulder-mounted surface-to-air missile (SAM), with a range of 11,550 ft to defend thier main bases. These would have to be destroyed and the flight group leader decided upon the following mission: fly to the target at 26,400 ft, and just before reaching it, dive to 1,320 ft and toss the bombs while climbing, then enter a 90 degree left rolling climb to 23,100 ft. Such tactics would avoid entering Mujahedeen air defence space.

Early on the morning of April 29, four MiG-23s got airborne from Bagram. Meteorological conditions were difficult with multiple cloud layers, known as puff pie, starting at 9,900 ft up to 33,000 ft. The monotonous highland terrain also complicated orientation, but L/C Pochitalkin was an experienced pilot - he regularily led four to eight Griffons during combat missions. Just before the target area, he managed to find his bearings by the little town of Tani, to the south of Host. The three MiGs folloed him closely. The war had provided pilots with the opportunity to gain considerable experience of formation flying, so they are really tight.

Just before the taget, the MiGs descended, then during the steep climb released their bombs and, keeping close formation, climbed left into a combat turn leaving the battle course at 90 to 100 degrees. Having reached 21,450 ft, the flight leader lokked back, and between the clouds saw a flying torch-like flame. Thingking it could be a plane from his group, L/C Pochitalkin turned his MiG aroung and called to his wingman. All three pilots responded immediately that they were OK. The flight leader reported to base that he had seen a burning aircraft, and Major Osipenko, the regiment's intelligence officer, flying in the trailing aircraft, confirmed this. Then L/C Pochitalkin banked left vectoring onto the torch. Suddenly, all the MiG pilots saw an F-16 Fighting Falcon appear from heavy clouds at 13,200 ft, it made a steep bank round its burning co-partner, engaged the afterburner, and disappeared into the clouds, heading for Pakistan territory. On the way home, the airwaves were alive with the questions about the incident to the flight leader.


After landing at Bagram, L/C Pocjitalkin told that his group had been attacked by a pair of Paistan Air Force F-16s and one F-16 was shot down. Later this report was confirmed by Had, Afghanistan intelligence, an offshoot of the Soviet KGB (and a very effective servvice). It reported that the F-16 pilot ejected safely, landing in a rebel controlled region - he was transferred to Pakistan that night. Later, wreckage from the Falcon was also transferred.

Throughout the analysis of the incident, one major question remained unanswered - how was the F-16 was shot down, when the Griffons were not armed with missles. Three possiblities were considered by the committee.

The first, and the most likely, was that the F-16 met the rain of bomb mines on its rising trajectory and blew up. The Falcons probably took off from Kamra Air Base, near Miranshah. Kamra is situated so close to the Afghan border that the F-16 could launch their Sidewinders immediately after getting airborne. PAF pilots intended to intercept Soviet fighters at high altitudes, assuming that they would be dive bombing, but on that day the Griffons'worked' on the climb, and steeply descended before the attack. At that moment, the F-16 could have slipped forward and become caught up in the 'cloud' of bombs.

The second version suggested that during pursuit, the F-16 came upon the climbing MiGs, and trying to avoid them, the Pakistan pilot jerked the plane into a sharp bank and exceeded the maximum g-load.

The final thoery was that the Falcon could have been shot down by his wingman. Intercepting th MiGs from the aft hemisphere, the F-16s tracked them on their radar up to the point where they released their bombs. But when the close formation Griffons carried out drastic flak evasion manoeuvers, the F-16s had to carry out the turn and the wingman may have hurriedly fired his Sidewinders accidently hitting his leader.


source



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 09:11 AM
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these are funny :








posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 10:03 AM
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The anti-pak sentiments have been resolved..enough now..
let common sense prevail..no more country bashing..



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by rajkhalsa2004

And frankly, your comments about India being a "controlled democracy" (whatever the hell that means), versus Russia being a paragon of democratic action is laughable. We can further discuss that in your Kashmir thread.


-Raj


i wrote Russia is a "Controlled Democracy" while India is a democratic country.....u just got me opposite

[edit on 2-4-2005 by prelude]



posted on Apr, 2 2005 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by prelude

Originally posted by rajkhalsa2004

And frankly, your comments about India being a "controlled democracy" (whatever the hell that means), versus Russia being a paragon of democratic action is laughable. We can further discuss that in your Kashmir thread.


-Raj


i wrote Russia is a "Controlled Democracy" while India is a democratic country.....u just got me opposite

[edit on 2-4-2005 by prelude]


how do you know he's a Sardar??
He might just be a khalsa fan/follower..




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