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Another Schiavo Thread, about Popular Will

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posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 12:39 AM
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So, I recall, when the judges were saying 'no' to her parents, and that the husband ( and his brother and sister in law) weren't lying, that a lot of people were foaming at the mouth about these damned judges in their black robes, not listening to the people.

But the people of the US, by nearly 2/3rds, want the government to stay out of it all, and want the feeding tube out.

So where are the same people now, now that the mob doesn't agree with them?

This is why the 'will of the mob' has nothing to do with government. For my own part, I don't care what 'the people' want in this case, since its a private matter. But I can't help note, despite SO's plea to tone down political ravenings, that there is a huge amount of hypocrisy in this supposed 'allegiance to the will of the rabble'.




posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 01:05 AM
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Yes it is a private matter or shall I say...was. It is now everywhere in the media. This woman has no ..........way of communicating that she wants to die, that she is in pain, that she is hungry thirsty, or wants to live......it is based on what her husband has said she told him. She is not in a coma, she is not on life support, she had a feeding tube in her, there are thousands of people with feeding tubes so.should they be starved and hydrated to death? This makes no sense to me, if you or I treated our dogs this way we would be in jail, I on the other hand think the government should get involved she deserves to live,.......she has parents who are willing to take care of her, for the rest of their life. The law has condemmed her to death, and she hasn't even committed a crime..........I am so mad about all of this.



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 01:10 AM
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It seems to me that this has become 100% political! Well, maybe not 100%. I thought the judges were making their decisions based on what DOCTORS were saying about the case, not popular public opinion. Hell, the supreme court won't even hear this case!!



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 02:01 AM
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Originally posted by angeleyes101
it is based on what her husband has said she told him

Which is binding.

She is not in a coma

They had a neurobiologist on FOX news who stated that she is infact in a coma. Its a type of coma where, effectively, the body is reactive, but not cognizant. She appears 'awake', but is in a coma.


she is not on life support,

Yes she is. She requires machines to keep her alive. If you put food infront of her, she won't recognize it and wont try to eat it.


there are thousands of people with feeding tubes so.should they be starved and hydrated to death?

Are they vegetables? Do they have a living will? If so, then yes, they should.

This makes no sense to me,


if you or I treated our dogs this way we would be in jail

Completely untrue. If you had a slightly sick dog but choose to have it destroyed outright, you couldn't get in trouble. There is a world of difference between how she is beign treated and how animals are treated.


I on the other hand think the government should get involved she deserves to live

She does not want to be in this condition. She has a 'living will' that states she isn't to be kept alive like this. There are multiple wintesses to that oral agreement. Every court has agreed that its binding.


she has parents who are willing to take care of her

Irrelevant.


I am so mad about all of this.

Living Wills like this are perfectly legal. You have no right to interfere with her and her husband's decision in this matter.

[quote3]poonchang
I thought the judges were making their decisions based on what DOCTORS were saying about the case
Thankfully, the judges are making their decisions based on the science and the law. Unfortunately, a number of politicians who have never met her or anyone involved in the case are pretending to be concerned.



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 02:18 AM
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Wait a minute, she has a living will? I missed that...WOW!! It probably doesn't address this sort of situation, though. Right?



posted on Mar, 26 2005 @ 11:21 PM
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She has no living will.only heresay on her husband's part that she told him she would not want to live this way.

She needs a miracle now....I for one am praying that she dies quickly, and all the press is off of her, since I read she hated being in the spotlight.



posted on Mar, 26 2005 @ 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by angeleyes101
it is based on what her husband has said she told him

Which is binding.

I say, it should not be 'binding', as a Catholic, he broke their marriage vows when he had children with another woman, and broke "In sickness and in health" also..so why should a man who has not een faithful, be appointed her guardian......

She is not in a coma

They had a neurobiologist on FOX news who stated that she is infact in a coma. Its a type of coma where, effectively, the body is reactive, but not cognizant. She appears 'awake', but is in a coma.

Argumentative!! There are conflicting reports! Doctors have said she is in PVS, and others have said she is capable of feeling pain,expressing emotion, can recognize people,,,and so on..



she is not on life support,

Yes she is. She requires machines to keep her alive. If you put food infront of her, she won't recognize it and wont try to eat it.


There was a family that travelled from Minnesota with their child ina wheelchair, he is on a 'feeding tube" should they kill that child also?


there are thousands of people with feeding tubes so.should they be starved and hydrated to death?

Are they vegetables? Do they have a living will? If so, then yes, they should.

She has NO living will.none..only her husbands wors, heresay...and he broke their VOWS , so being of a Catholic faith his wishes should be terminated.



if you or I treated our dogs this way we would be in jail

Completely untrue. If you had a slightly sick dog but choose to have it destroyed outright, you couldn't get in trouble. There is a world of difference between how she is beign treated and how animals are treated.

Argumentative!
I cannot and am not allowed to starve my dog, or refuse it water, the dog cannot fed himself right, it depends on me and you the owners to feed him and give him water, so should all animals who rely on us for their basic needs to live be killed.........your point is very argumentative.


I on the other hand think the government should get involved she deserves to live

She does not want to be in this condition. She has a 'living will' that states she isn't to be kept alive like this. There are multiple wintesses to that oral agreement. Every court has agreed that its binding.

She has NO living will....go find her will give the link.......there is none, read the story again.


she has parents who are willing to take care of her

Irrelevant.

Not irrelevant, they love her more than her husband does, they want her to live and are willing to pay for the expenses and give their time to help her out of love....he on the other hand I believe wants her gone, so he can marry with a clear conscious.


I am so mad about all of this.

Living Wills like this are perfectly legal. You have no right to interfere with her and her husband's decision in this matter.
Where is her will?



posted on Mar, 27 2005 @ 12:02 AM
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Well, here is my FIRM belief on this situation.

Popular will should mean NOTHING when deciding ones' life. I would still have my beliefs, even if the entire world was against me. Political peer pressure should not, however it sadly does, sway you.

Fact stands, the courts do NOT have enough evidence to PROVE that Schiavo wanted to die.

All they have are witnesses, circumstancial evidence - NOT hard evidence. W/O hard-evidence you CANNOT convict.

They are legally murdering this poor lady.

On the other hand, if they had solid evidence that she wished to die, then it would be her choice. However, we do not know if that is what she wanted.

Sadly, this lady shall be murdered soon. Just another sign of the decline in ethics and morals in American society.

I fully support the Bushes on trying to help her stay alive. Sadly, all the hippies out there seem to think she wants a death sentence.

-wD



posted on Mar, 27 2005 @ 12:19 AM
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Mythoughts exactly!!!!! Morally she is being murdered by her husband!!


This is not a political issue, but, became one and became a public one as well, and even though there are people who are willing to take care of her for the rest of their lives, it doesn't matter, this is judicial murder!

From the president to the Pope,who have pleaded to let her live, the judicial system has said ..No.... to letting this woman live...may god have mercy on them all!!



posted on Mar, 27 2005 @ 01:56 PM
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The problem here that most of you don't realized is that her case is not the first one and will not be the last.

In "sometown America" a person is let to die, per family request quite often, and in some occasions the will of the guardian is contested by the rest of the family.

So far the guardian has the law in their favor.

Now one twist in all that, the cases in "sometown America" never reached the media or the public, and people has kept their identities and ordeals private.

But alas the Terri case has been turned into a media circus by fundamentalist extremist groups that have an agenda to fulfill out of the pain and suffering of a tragic case convinetly located in a Bush state.

I for one feel very outrage about all this and I will fight anybody that will tried to take my rights away.

Americans has open their eyes to all this and they do not want to become a poppet of the government and extremist groups to come in and play with their privacy.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 11:41 PM
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Originally posted by poonchang
Wait a minute, she has a living will?

She had an oral agreement with her husband that was witnessed by two other people.

angeleyes101
She has no living will.only heresay on her husband's part

Apparently every court in the country and most of the country disagrees with you.

I say, it should not be 'binding',

Your opinion is what is not binding.


as a Catholic, he broke their marriage vows when he had children with another woman,

Again, not binding.


so why should a man who has not een faithful, be appointed her guardian.

Because she is her husband, and she trustd him enough to tell him this and her final wishes. He wasn't 'appointed' her legal guardian, he is her guardian. Its ironic that the people pushing the sanctity of marriage are also the ones saying its meaningless here. This guy did what he had to do as a husband a long time ago, and the state and her parents have blocked him at every step. This has been going on for 15 years. I'm glad that the poor guy was able to start a new family.

Argumentative!! There are conflicting reports! Doctors have said she is in PVS, and others have said she is capable of feeling pain,expressing emotion, can recognize people,,,and so on.

The most thorgough examinations have indicated that she is in a PVS, such as her brain scan and the lack of brain activity. Most of the people saying she isn't as such haven't met her personally, and I have only heard of one that actually sat with her, for all of 90 minutes, and then 'disagreed'. There is no question about her mental state, she is a vegetable, the consensus amoung the doctors is that she is as such.

There was a family that travelled from Minnesota with their child ina wheelchair, he is on a 'feeding tube" should they kill that child also?

No more than they should remove life support for someone that doesn't want that done and is on ventalators and automated heart-machines and everything else. Terri Schiavo does not want to be hooked up to machines like that. Therefore, unhook her.


Not irrelevant, they love her more than her husband does

Irrelevant even if true. They are incapable of loving her enough to let her be an adult and do what she wants and let her go.

he on the other hand I believe wants her gone, so he can marry with a clear conscious.

Preposterous. He's going to deceptively 'kill her' so he can marry with a clear consience? That doesn't even make sense.

Where is her will?

She specifically told him that she doesn't want to live in such a state and this was witnessed by his brother and sister-in-law.

From the president to the Pope,who have pleaded to let her live, the judicial system has said ..No

The pope has no standing in the US legal system nor should he. The US courts should not cave in to his demands, nor congresses, nor the publics, nor even the president's.


webdevil
Popular will should mean NOTHING when deciding ones' life.

I agree entirely.

All they have are witnesses, circumstancial evidence - NOT hard evidence. W/O hard-evidence you CANNOT convict.

Actually thats not correct, circumstantial evidence and eye-witnesses can be sufficient to convict in criminal cases. Not allways, but they can. But thats not pertinent. THis is not a criminal case. Schiavo's testimony and the witnesses are sufficient to demonstrate that this is what she wanted. We can't 'know', but then again, its none of our business anyway, why should she have to present it in such a way so that you or I can know? Or anyone else besides her husband?

Just another sign of the decline in ethics and morals in American society.

The only decline of ethical behaviour is comming from the politicians trying to circumvent this woman's perfectly valid wishses and, not for nothing, but these parents are real dirbags too. They've dragged this guy thru the mud and have slandered him horribly, saying he tried to kill her and all sorts of other b/s, not to mention that they're persistently lying about her condition, lying on camera that she talks to them and even says things like 'i want to live'. Disgusting. They should be put to court for these immoral actions. Apparently schiavo himself isn't trying to cause any harm to them. Perhaps he sypmathizes with them as he too has to deal with loosing his wife.



marg6043In "sometown America" a person is let to die, per family request

As in Congressman Delay's case. His father was in a 'disabled condition' and he and his family pulled the plug, hell, they refused treatment even tho he had been given very little. But are people running around saying that delay is a parricide? No. Because its a private affair. Perhaps Congress should investigate that case, no?



posted on Mar, 29 2005 @ 01:35 AM
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Isn't Terri's life worth "having it in writing"? Hearsay, with witnesses from her husbands own family...shouldn't be enough to condemn this woman to death. We have to draw the line somewhere....and if Terri is allowed to die, without written proof that this was her wish...it will open the door to anyone for any other reason, to pull the plug on their spouse so long as they have two family memebers to lie for them. There is enough reasonable doubt there to suggest she should live.

He's making this claim that this is what she wanted,but has no grounds to base it on. What he wants is essentially legalized murder. He can't do it because if there's an insurance policey and he kills her then he can't collect but if he has the hospital take a feeding tube out he can. The fact of the matter is that anyone who thinks that Michael Shaivo is sitting home,pining over his wife,while being involved with another woman at this point is wrong in the eyes of his religious ,laws... He's all ready moved on with his life ..let Terri's have her life too while he has his.....move on Michael.
These people who say Michael Shaivo should be able to do this seem to forget that no one has a clear idea on what Terri Shaivo wants and whose paying these supposed doctors to say that Mrs. Shaivo has no brain activity. If it's her husband I question that all ready because he wants her dead. Her parents have nothing to gain from saying that she has no brain activity. It would be a blessing for them if she did but Michael Shaivo has the most to gain from her having no brain activity because then he justify starving his wife to death. .
Congratulations."michael" Terri is going to pass, your wish is being granted....




[edit on 29-3-2005 by angeleyes101]



posted on Mar, 29 2005 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by angeleyes101Isn't Terri's life worth "having it in writing"?

Its not a requirement of law. Therefore,you can't override her living will and her right to have her wishes seen thru.


Hearsay, with witnesses from her husbands own family...shouldn't be enough to condemn this woman to death.

SHe is not being condemmed to death, her will is being fufiled.


We have to draw the line somewhere....and if Terri is allowed to die, without written proof that this was her wish...it will open the door to anyone for any other reason, to pull the plug on their spouse so long as they have two family memebers to lie for them.

Well, there's not much that can be done about that is there? You can't demonstrate that they are lying, and you can't override her will just because you want to, therefore, there is nothing that can be done about it.


There is enough reasonable doubt there to suggest she should live.

There absolutely is not. There is nothing that has stood up in any court that demonstrates that he is trying to kill her.


He's making this claim that this is what she wanted,but has no grounds to base it on.

SHe told him what she wants to happen.


What he wants is essentially legalized murder

Absolute bull# and propaganda.



He can't do it because if there's an insurance policey and he kills her then he can't collect but if he has the hospital take a feeding tube out he can.

She names him as the beneficiary of her will and insurancepolicy. She obviously trusts him more than her parents. She told him that she wants to be cremated, and that she doesn't want to be hooked up to a machine and 'live like that'. Neither you nor her parents have any right to say that he's trying to kill her or speculate on absolutely nothing that he is doing so. If he cannot be convicted of murder or attempted murder or even abuse, then you cannot throw out his, his brothers, and his sister-in-laws testimony.


at this point is wrong in the eyes of his religious ,laws

Religious laws thankfully have no basis in american courts.


He's all ready moved on with his life ..let Terri's have her life too while he has his.....move on Michael.

He is her husband, she told him that she doesn't want to live like that, her parents are the ones who need to move on and deal with the fact that their daughter, despite the spastic moanings and jibberings, has been dead for 15 years.


These people who say Michael Shaivo should be able to do this seem to forget that no one has a clear idea on what Terri Shaivo wants

There absolutely is a clear idea of what she wants. She stated, at a funeral of a person who had died apparently in a similar situation, to her husband, his brother and sister-in-law, that she doesn't want to live like that, and apparently confirmed this with him on other occasions.


and whose paying these supposed doctors

There is absolutely no question about her diagnosis, she is a vegetable who has practically no chanceof recovery. The oxygen supply to her brain was completely shut down, the brain cells died, the skull cavity filled with fluid, her brain is not functional. The only people offering contrary 'diagnoses' have either not actually examined her, or been specifically sent in by the family find 'signs of life'.



Congratulations."michael" Terri is going to pass, your wish is being granted

Her wish is thankfully being seen thru, despite the best efforts of people who have nothing to do with her or her family, and despite the best efforsts of government officials to overstep their authority and try to usurp the constitutional powers of the courts.



posted on Apr, 1 2005 @ 12:42 AM
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I guess there is no need to debate this...she is dead now and at peace.........god bless her.and her suffering....



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