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US citizen indicted under the Patirot Act

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posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 04:33 PM
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David W. Banach, claimed he was looking at stars with his daughter


SO the guy is outside at night with a laser pointer designed to point out stars, star gazing with his daughter and points this device at a star and now he's a terrorist?

I knew the Bush Administration was out to stamp out science and technology, by lowering science and math requirements, eliminating science grants, increasing foriegn visas for low wage science and technology students and workers, but this is a bit far. Whats next outlawing star gazing?

Was it this guys intention to blind the pilots? I doubt it. I'd like to know how far this airport is from his house.

If its miles away, in the Dark, most people don't even see the tiny lights of planes unless they are in a direct path to the plane. I live near two airforce bases, one major airport, and at least 5 small or private airfields and I watch planes alot. At night, They are often out of visualization depending on the direction they are facing.

My money is on the fact that he was not aware that the plane was even there. He was out at night, star gazing with his daughter, using a legally purchased device. He was not out under cover of dark as part of some terrorist cell attempting to cause terrorist acts.


was accused of lying to the FBI about the Dec. 29 incident in which the jet's windshield and cabin were hit three times with a beam as the plane approached Teterboro Airport.


As for the lying. Its probably the agents talking to a group of good ole boy judges and police officials simply saying. "He's lying. Noone goes out at night to star gaze with their daughters, that's just ridiculous talk."

Anyhow that just my two cents, but then again I have two daughters and one on the way and I am a huge science and technology buff and I try to pass this on to my daughters so I must be some type of terrorist as well.

Phae




posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 05:14 PM
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Why must people always attach terrorist to the Patriot Act. It is for our protection, not just to hunt terrorists. He was not a terrorist camel jocky with an RPG type, he was a suburban jerk off who did somethin REALLY dumb.

How can none of you see that this man could have cuased the deaths of over 100 people if those pilots could not regain sight. He would have been charged with basically the charges, even if the Patriot Act was not around.

side note- Bad kharma trying to throw Schiavo into this.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 05:25 PM
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Originally posted by esdad71
Why must people always attach terrorist to the Patriot Act.



I do becouse it is in the title of the act itself.




Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism



news.findlaw.com...






[edit on 24-3-2005 by smirkley]



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 05:52 PM
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So wise guy, only terrorist should be charged under it? That was the point i was trying to make.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 06:04 PM
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He should be charged under regular federal criminal law. I did google to see if I could readily locate some Federal law related(unsuccessfully), but surely regardless if he was just dumb or by accident, some concurrent law already exists that covers such an action.


edit- yes, only terrorists, or those who harbor or assist terrorists or terrorist activity. (IMO)





But the PATRIOT ACT description of course catches all...


An Act To deter and punish terrorist acts in the United States and around the world, to enhance law enforcement investigatory tools, and for other purposes.



[edit on 24-3-2005 by smirkley]



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 06:30 PM
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I just wake up each day and say, thank 'insert deity here' I wasn't born in Fallujah.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 06:34 PM
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...and lets not forget the governemt exercises a couple of weeks later with GREEN LASERS.

This man was framed, IMHO, his threat to this government must have been in other capacities we dont know about...

OR..

Things are much worse than we think...



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 06:54 PM
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Originally posted by esdad71
Why must people always attach terrorist to the Patriot Act. It is for our protection, not just to hunt terrorists. He was not a terrorist camel jocky with an RPG type, he was a suburban jerk off who did somethin REALLY dumb.



Patriot act pros.

"The patriot act is to protect US from terrorist" that is what the government tell us.

"Much of the information that the terrorists were sending and receiving from each other was through the internet" So the internet needs to be controlled.


"The Patriot Act allows the government to intercept many types of communication, including electronic communication, dealing with terrorism"

And invade your privacy whenever the government thinks that is in the name of combating terror.

"Counterterrorism Fund, and increased funding for the technical support center at the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Sense of Congress condemning discrimination against Arab and Muslim Americans.
Expansion of National Electronic Crime Task Force Initiative.
Trade sanctions. "

That sounds nice enough but the powers extend much more than that.

"The act also has specific sections geared toward preventing money laundering, border protection, the strengthening of criminal laws, and providing for victims of terrorism"

Innocent enough but so far we have seen how it really works.

And yes the patriot act is "link to terrorism" that is why we have it, to fight terrorism. Right? and to protect the citizens. Right?

Well that is what we will like to believe but it is not, it means government getting into your business, more abuses, civil laws violations, and an excused for bigger government and more spending.



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 02:37 AM
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Originally posted by sardion2000
Show me the link plz that states unequivacally that he is not being charged as a Terrorist


abcnews.go.com...
Federal authorities on Tuesday used the Patriot Act to charge David Banach, 38, with interfering with the operator of a mass transportation vehicle and making false statements to the FBI

That is to say, he is not being charged as a terrorist. Do any news sources state that he has infact been charged as such? PATRIOT doesn't only deal with terrorists. There is a public association, but its not 'the whole truth'.



Please no links for Foxnews, or Newsmax either those two "news" outlets are just a full of it as Rense and Prisonplanet.

I can see how someone would say that about newsmax, but not fox. Its biased, but its not delusional. If FOX was reporting that there were illuminati agents trying to send a spaceship out to arrest jesus and try him for crimes against humanity or something, then that'd be equivalent to 'rense' and the rest.


Please do not label me as a left wing wacko

How about 'pinko commie bastard'. I allways liked that one.

Actually, I find it funny that people throw out 'liberal' as an insult. The US is the most liberal nation on the planet possibly, as long as you keep an historical perspective to it, and there aren't any actual 'Liberals' in the US, certainly no national party. John Kerry and Ted Kennedy are on the left, but they're democrats, not liberals, or even 'leftists'.


What is the situation with your friend in canada? YOu mentioned it somewhere else, you're apparently quite concerned. He is held on a security certificate no? Is he a naturalized maple leaf or was he born that way? IOW, any risk for deportation to some other country?

[edit on 25-3-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 03:19 AM
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Here is another link to this story:


Federal authorities Tuesday used the Patriot Act to charge a man with pointing a laser beam at an airplane overhead and temporarily blinding the pilot and co-pilot.

The FBI acknowledged the incident had no connection to terrorism but called David Banach's actions "foolhardy and negligent."


apnews.myway.com...

Clearly, there is no connection to terrorism. So why exactly do we need the Patriot Act for non-terror related offenses?

[edit on 25-3-2005 by Jamuhn]



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 03:23 AM
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Originally posted by smirkley
The Patriot act is being used in very important ways to protect the security of the US.... citizens included.


How was Tommy Chong's arrest due to the Patriot Act? Drug paraphernalia was illegal long before the Patriot Act was around. Sure, it was free publicity for Ashcroft and the DOJ, but not related to the Patriot Act.



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 03:28 AM
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I looked up the USC to see what exactly this guy was being charged under:


United States Code:

TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I--CRIMES
CHAPTER 97--RAILROADS


assembler.law.cornell.edu...

This is where the Patriot Act text for Section 1993 was added.
To refresh:


Sec. 1993. Terrorist attacks and other acts of violence against mass transportation systems

`(a) GENERAL PROHIBITIONS- Whoever willfully--

...

`(2) places or causes to be placed any biological agent or toxin for use as a weapon, destructive substance, or destructive device in, upon, or near a mass transportation vehicle or ferry, without previously obtaining the permission of the mass transportation provider, and with intent to endanger the safety of any passenger or employee of the mass transportation provider, or with a reckless disregard for the safety of human life;


Now, why exactly is he being charged under the chapter entitled railroads? Let's see if there is another provision under the USC that doesn't involve using the Patriot Act or railroads, maybe airplanes would make more sense.


United States Code:

TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I--CRIMES
CHAPTER 2--AIRCRAFT AND MOTOR VEHICLES
SECTION 32--Destruction of aircraft or aircraft facilities

(a) Whoever willfully—

...

(5) performs an act of violence against or incapacitates any individual on any such aircraft, if such act of violence or incapacitation is likely to endanger the safety of such aircraft;


assembler.law.cornell.edu... -.html

Now, I'm not a lawyer, but the provision created by the Patriot Act above seems to be verbatim under a chapter aptly entitled 'Aircraft and Motor Vehicles.' Is this some kind of political ploy, why is this man being charged for crimes against railroads? Is the FBI trying to set a precedent for future non-terror related prosecutions under the Patriot Act?

As I've shown, there is a more appropriate Criminal Code for his actions, not involving the Patriot Act. The FBI wants you to believe that this man could not be charged had it no been for the Patriot Act. As you can see, this is not true. Maybe Gonzolez set this up, after all, the sun is setting on the Patriot Act.

[edit on 25-3-2005 by Jamuhn]



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 06:56 PM
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Interesting.


He was accused of interfering with the operator of a mass transportation vehicle and making false statements to the FBI[...]According to the FBI, the Patriot Act does not describe helicopters as "mass transportation vehicles." As for why Banach was not charged with some other offense over the helicopter incident, Michael Drewniak, a spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office, did not immediately return calls for comment.

They do however note that the helicopter was being used becuase mass transportation vehicles were being hit with teh laser. The helicopter was a 'sting' operation, so to speak. So they might be charging him with reference to the jets, not the helicopter.

Where did you find out what specific code he was charged with?

Also, and this is where my ignorance of the situation comes into play, you are saying that Patriot modifies Title 18 only in the matter of mass transportation; defined as rails and ferries, but not airplanes??? That the aw involving tampering with airplanes that this guy broke wasn't modififed by Patriot?



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 07:03 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Interesting.


He was accused of interfering with the operator of a mass transportation vehicle and making false statements to the FBI[...]According to the FBI, the Patriot Act does not describe helicopters as "mass transportation vehicles." As for why Banach was not charged with some other offense over the helicopter incident, Michael Drewniak, a spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office, did not immediately return calls for comment.

They do however note that the helicopter was being used becuase mass transportation vehicles were being hit with teh laser. The helicopter was a 'sting' operation, so to speak. So they might be charging him with reference to the jets, not the helicopter.

Where did you find out what specific code he was charged with?

Also, and this is where my ignorance of the situation comes into play, you are saying that Patriot modifies Title 18 only in the matter of mass transportation; defined as rails and ferries, but not airplanes??? That the aw involving tampering with airplanes that this guy broke wasn't modififed by Patriot?


From the original news article:


Banach, 38, faces up to 20 years in prison if convicted of interference with pilots of an aircraft "with reckless disregard for the safety of human life," a provision of the USA Patriot Act passed following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.


news.yahoo.com.../ap/20050324/ap_on _re_us/laser_beam_aircraft_1

If you look at the Patriot Act text, this provision could only be quoted from Sec. 1993:


(2) places or causes to be placed any biological agent or toxin for use as a weapon, destructive substance, or destructive device in, upon, or near a mass transportation vehicle or ferry, without previously obtaining the permission of the mass transportation provider, and with intent to endanger the safety of any passenger or employee of the mass transportation provider, or with a reckless disregard for the safety of human life;


And this provision is intended to modify Chapter 97 of Title 18 entitled Railroads

And if he were charged because of the helicopter, that would fall under the Chapter 2 of Title 18 for Aircraft and Motor Vehicles.

So, I'm trying to find what logical reason he would be charged under Chapter 97. Is it merely to find some way...any way to use the Patriot Act?



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 07:16 PM
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Alright, since Jamuhn did not take to well my comment regarding "knee-jerking" reactions to the Patriot Act, I'll attempt to pacify the host here:


as posted by Jamuhn
Sec. 1993. Terrorist attacks and other acts of violence against mass transportation systems

`(a) GENERAL PROHIBITIONS- Whoever willfully--

...

`(2) places or causes to be placed any biological agent or toxin for use as a weapon, destructive substance, or destructive device in, upon, or near a mass transportation vehicle or ferry, without previously obtaining the permission of the mass transportation provider, and with intent to endanger the safety of any passenger or employee of the mass transportation provider, or with a reckless disregard for the safety of human life; "

This man is being charged with "a reckless disregard for the safety of human life" under this provision created by the Patriot Act. It's absurd to think he would not be charged had it not been for the Patriot Act. But, the FBI made it a specific point to charge him under provisions created by the Patriot Act.

Ok, Jamuhn, lets play the "what-if" game here for a sec:
If this dwiddling fool had been shining his "amateur astronomy laser" and the plane had passed by, its beam reflecting into the pilots enough to cause the plane to crash, would that still be sufficient for this man to blame his daughter? Would it be still viewed as an accident? Or on a grand scale, would it be "reckless endangerment"?

The problem here is motive and intent.
Was he doing such for terrorism purposes? I don't believe so.
Was he doing this purposely? That remains to be discerned, correct?
Was it merely an "accident" as being portrayed by his lawyer? Again, remains to be discerned.

The population around were he lives is what: super dense? If that plane had crashed, not only killing those on board, but those who may have lived in the area the plane crashed in, would that still be an "accident" or "reckless endangerment"? Personally, I believe the man was playing around because of all the news reports on lasers being used against planes, and decided to use a laser to hit a plane and guess what? He got caught.

In regards to that, was it intentional "terrorism," as mandated by the Patriot Act? IMHO, no, but it most certainly was "reckless endangerment."
Should he be tried under the Patriot Act? IMHO, no. Should he face possible persecution for this event? IMHO, you bet. More so, since he originally blamed it on his daughter. Amazing how much the story changes after speaking with a lawyer, huh?


Also, remember that this is not his first "astronomy laser" incident, either. IMHO, never lie to the Feds, for starters. Then maybe they wouldn't be inclined to nail your arse with the heaviest thing [in this case, the Patriot Act] they can?


Again, IMHO, this action of using the Patriot Act to mail this guy, whether to start with the "heavist thing" or as a scare attempt, does nothing but add fuel to the fire of those opposed to the Patriot Act, despite my feelings that the mere name insights the typical "knee-jerk" response.




I guess moderators can learn from ATS' motto too.

I guess we do, eh?
Still typical "knee-jerking" going on though, in regards to the Patriot Act. It amounts to the same "knee-jerk" response that is illicited by 'black-boxes' being introduced on vehicles...etc...







seekerof

[edit on 25-3-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 07:36 PM
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I definitely agree he should be prosecuted. But, I think there is an ulterior motive to the use of the Patriot Act. In fact, Chapter 2 of Title 18 of USC (long-standing before the Patriot Act) even has protocol for such 'incidents' that cause death. So all signs point to...'Why in the hell is the Patriot Act involved?'

While I do believe the Patriot Act is worthless and does nothing but invite abuse, my point is that I think the looming sunset clause on it may have something to do with the prosecution in this case.

Perhaps it is not the most sexy of conspiracy theories, but these political games are interesting. The hardest question for anyone to answer is always, '"Why?" and it's only three letters long!



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 07:42 PM
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Wait, I don't understand. The only part of the entire Patriot act that covers ;reckless endangerment of life' and what not, is the part specific to the railroads???



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 07:55 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Wait, I don't understand. The only part of the entire Patriot act that covers ;reckless endangerment of life' and what not, is the part specific to the railroads???


It's covered under the Chapter entitled Railroads, and Section 1993 was added to it by the Patriot Act. Section 1993 is the only section with that specific clause, meant to handle Mass Transportation vehicles or ferries.



posted on Mar, 26 2005 @ 03:25 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043

Patriot act pros.

"The patriot act is to protect US from terrorist" that is what the government tell us.



Yep, that's how it was ran through congress, but in reality its is to remove the Americans civil rights and has nothing to do with terrorism what so ever.

We always knew there were some sleeze balls in government & law enforcement who would break into your house & fish for enough info to get a judge to sign a warrant, so they could come back legally. Hey & if they didn't find anything & you never knew they were there no harm done right? Well now they can do it legally. I just know if I ever catch anyone in my house I'll shoot first, stab first or hit with the bat first and ask for ID later & I don't care whether its a drug crazed burgler looking to steal my stereo to trade for his next fix or a government agent making sure I'm not breaking any laws if they're in my house without my permission they both deserve a bullet between the eyes or a bat upside the head in my opinion. As far as I'm concerned anyone who steps on my rights is a terrorist & I have the right to kill terrorist on site.


[edit on 26-3-2005 by outsider]



posted on Mar, 26 2005 @ 05:20 AM
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this guy is just a #ing test case for the gov. to see how the american public reacts to this incident.just like the guy who claims he saw or was dircetly or indirectly involved in the planning of the 1976 tests on how the cia were going to fly planes into the twin towers with men using box cutters to carry out the mission inside the plane.supposedly they are literally telling him to tell the american public about this.NOW WHY THE # WOULD THEY, CIA, BE TELLING HIM TO GO TELL THE AMERICAN PUBLIC ABOUT SOMETHING AS THIS THAT'S VERY WELL DOCUMENTED????????????? BECAUSE TO SEE HOW STUPID AND PLACID APATHETIC AND NON-CARING THE AMERICAN PUBLIC HAVE BECOME.one day soon..................all will be revealed..........EVERYTHING,to americans 911,iraq,kennedy, marylin monroe,charlie manson, the 60's,nazi germany,hitler, world war two,vietnam, ect...................and when it is the public will be too much enslaved to the comforts and dependence the NWO affords the american people,the world, and all will know whom they worship and who is their god.the anti-christ(nwo, bush, blair.rockefellars,illuminati,so on) will instruct all to receive their or "it's" mark(computerchip,thumb print,whatever) to identify them as to there complete, total , reverant, ETERNAL, submission.the others like myself will be killed and or persecuted.then the end will come and jesus christ will take his home and satan's world here will be left without ANY love to use and manipulate to make money with.even the VERY VERY elite who run this world are being manipulated by a higher dark force(satan) being deluded into thinking they will reign here with no consequeces for their actions,setting themselves up to being GOD itself. all children understand this and have faith in it's understanding of perfection................but even that too is fading rapidly.and will one day..........become like "rosemary's baby" or damien thorn. from the movie" the omen".many will be born with great intuition and one perhaps destined to be the final leader"anti-christ" of this world will emerge from these offspring to rule his people setting up earth to being hell.it's all right here heaven and hell.i live in mine and you must live in yours

[edit on 26-3-2005 by geno]




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