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.9 repeating = 1? Is our numerical system flawed?

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posted on Mar, 12 2010 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

No, not really. Pi is an irrational number, that is one without end.


[snip]

so I have an advantage
I tend to know the sh*t you know, and then some...

go here knock yourself out about your pi in the sky fantasies.
I respect this fella...
www.jainmathemagics.com...


I will be releasing a new body of work that gives the True Value of Pi, based on the Harmonics of Phi (1.618033...),
a value close to 3.144...
The ancient Mathematics masters have always known that the two most important transcendental numbers
Pi and Phi are intimately related.


you still need to prove yourself.
my radar is still only picking up the IGNORANT blip on the screen...

THIS RARE BOOK IS NOW AVAILABLE.
It actually contains 60 different
and amazing ways of calculating Pi = 3.1464466
never before shown in print!!!


60 ways to leave your pi?
and find another piece of pi?
hahaha

namaste




[edit on 12-3-2010 by CHiram_Abiff]

 


Removed off topic remark.

Please read Courtesy is mandatory


[edit on 12/3/10 by masqua]




posted on Mar, 12 2010 @ 03:54 PM
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reply to post by CHiram_Abiff
 


I think the only flaw we have here is in your maths education. That would explain how you can be so arrogantly sure that the nonsense you're peddling is true.



posted on Mar, 12 2010 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by CHiram_Abiff

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

No, not really. Pi is an irrational number, that is one without end.


[snip]

so I have an advantage
I tend to know the sh*t you know, and then some...

go here knock yourself out about your pi in the sky fantasies.
I respect this fella...
www.jainmathemagics.com...


I will be releasing a new body of work that gives the True Value of Pi, based on the Harmonics of Phi (1.618033...),
a value close to 3.144...
The ancient Mathematics masters have always known that the two most important transcendental numbers
Pi and Phi are intimately related.


you still need to prove yourself.
my radar is still only picking up the IGNORANT blip on the screen...

THIS RARE BOOK IS NOW AVAILABLE.
It actually contains 60 different
and amazing ways of calculating Pi = 3.1464466
never before shown in print!!!


60 ways to leave your pi?
and find another piece of pi?
hahaha

namaste
 


Removed off topic remark.

Please read Courtesy is mandatory


[edit on 12/3/10 by masqua]


Perhaps there are 60 ways...
...I did some research and I see that Archimedes used a brute-force method of inscribing a circle into a many-sided polygon. Also, there is the Chinese mathmetician Liu Hui's formula. There's John Machin's formula, the Leibniz Formula (which is based on the earlier work of Indian Mathematician Madhava), and Isaac Newton, who was a contemporary of Leibniz, had his own formula

The Swiss mathematician Leonhard Euler -- the man who popularized the use of the Greek letter "π" (Pi) to mean the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter -- had is own formula for calculating Pi.

More recently, the Chudnovsky brothers developed the Chudnovsky Algorithm for calculating Pi.

So, yeah -- I know there are many methods for calculating Pi. However, all of these methods come up with 3.14159265359... (but they may diverge farther the the right of the decimal).

However, none of these historical algorithms come up with the "root of Phi" value of 3.144605512 or Reddivari Sarva Jagannadha Reddy's value 3.146446609…, which is based on the formula A = (14 – √2) / 4.

I'm sure these other people think their version may be right, but do you have any evidence that these people have calculated Pi better than Archimedes, Newton, Liu Hui, Madhava, Machin, Leibniz, Euler, the Chudnovskys, or the others? (...and them "saying" their value is more accurate is not evidence).

Here is one mathematical proof (and there are others) that Pi is irrational. If Mr. Jain is saying that Pi is a rational number that stops after 9th decimal place (is that what he is saying? It's unclear from his circuitous writing), then this mathematical proof is evidence that Mr. Jain's value of 3.144605512 is not correct.
www.coolissues.com...
Although, perhaps he isn't saying Pi is a rational number, because Phi is irrational, and Jain is basing his value for Pi on Phi.

Like I asked before, can you provide some mathematical evidence for why you believe the 'accepted' value of Pi is wrong, and why one of these other people (I'm not sure which one you are asking me to believe, Jain or Reddy) is right?

You say you "know sh*t" that I don't know, yet you seem not to be willing to share that knowledge. Unless you actually tell me why the accepted value of Pi is wrong, I'm going to have to think that you actually DON'T know sh*t.

I don't know what Jain's formula is for Pi based on Phi, but anyone can find a "relationship" between Pi and Phi by plugging in a manufactured constant. However the real trick is to prove that the constant used to show that relationship is meaningful, or just a made-up number that gets you close to Pi.

Could you please post Mr. Jain's formula? You seem convinced he is right, so you must have it.


[edit on 3/12/2010 by Soylent Green Is People]



posted on Mar, 12 2010 @ 09:40 PM
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Originally posted by xirtam31337
.9 repeating does equal 1...i thought everyone knew that by now.

en.wikipedia.org...


I see someone bumped this old thread, and a few weeks ago I spent about a day pondering this subject so I thought I'd post what I learned. While it's fine to post that wiki link and it's an excellent, informative source, it's a very long read and some may end up more confused after reading it than before.

Anyway after pondering it, here are my conclusions:

1. It depends on how you define the notation 0.999...

a-if that is meant to represent a zero point followed by an infinite string of 9s, then maybe it's not 1

b-if that is meant to represent the LIMIT of the infinite sequence, then it is simply BY DEFINITION that the limit of that infinite sequence is equal to 1

2. The generally accepted convention is that the notation 0.999... or similar notations are meant by definition to be the limit of that sequence, and not a sequence

3. As some have pointed out, in some types of advanced mathematics we may have a need to represent an infinite sequence instead of the limit of the infinite sequence. But this would be an unconventional notation that does not follow the accepted convention that 0.999... refers to the limit of an infinite sequence. This is highlighted in the wiki article under the section Skepticism in education


Where students accept the difference between a sequence of numbers and its limit, they might read "0.999..." as meaning the sequence rather than its limit.


I think that single sentence, out of that extremely long wikipedia article, conveys the crux of the problem, and encapsulates the resolution of simply defining whether you are referring to the sequence or the limit, and the notation 0.999... normally refers to the limit.

So I think Byrd (back around page 5) and a few others got it right, but there are many replies in this thread that don't seem right.

[edit on 12-3-2010 by Arbitrageur]



posted on Mar, 13 2010 @ 05:04 AM
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Originally posted by davesidious
reply to post by CHiram_Abiff
 


I think the only flaw we have here is in your maths education. That would explain how you can be so arrogantly sure that the nonsense you're peddling is true.



The completed design dimensions, as suggested by Petrie's survey and later studies, are estimated to have originally been 280 cubits in height by 440 cubits in length at each of the four sides of its base. These proportions equate to π/2 to an accuracy of better than 0.05% (corresponding to the approximation of π as 22/7). Some Egyptologists consider this to have been the result of deliberate design proportion[14]. Verner wrote, "We can conclude that although the ancient Egyptians could not precisely define the value of π, in practice they used it".[15] Petrie, author of Pyramids and Temples of Gizeh, who was the first accurate surveyor of Giza and the excavator and surveyor of the Pyramid of Meidum, concluded: "but these relations of areas and of circular ratio are so systematic that we should grant that they were in the builders design".[16] Earlier in the chapter he wrote more specifically, that: “We conclude therefore that the approximation of 7 to 22 as the ratio of diameter to circumference was recognised”.[17] These proportions equated to the four outer faces sloping by 51.843° or 51° 50′ 34″, which would have been understood and expressed by the Ancient Egyptians as a seked slope of 5½ palms[18].


LIKE I SAID WHAT pi are we discussing?

Can you build a pyramid using your pi?
Hence we are back to the esoteric vs. left brain math only that lacks myth as its base.

Sounds like devil in da detail.
Take a look behind ewe...
you got a pointed tail dude?

namaste



[edit on 13-3-2010 by CHiram_Abiff]



posted on Mar, 13 2010 @ 05:25 AM
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Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People


You say you "know sh*t" that I don't know, yet you seem not to be willing to share that knowledge. Unless you actually tell me why the accepted value of Pi is wrong, I'm going to have to think that you actually DON'T know sh*t.

I don't know what Jain's formula is for Pi based on Phi, but anyone can find a "relationship" between Pi and Phi by plugging in a manufactured constant. However the real trick is to prove that the constant used to show that relationship is meaningful, or just a made-up number that gets you close to Pi.

Could you please post Mr. Jain's formula? You seem convinced he is right, so you must have it.


I don't have it.
I don't really need it?

Dude this is not a discussion about pi in the sky proofs that have been discussed for aeons.

not for me....
I will let the experts lock horns and slap each other silly with their rulers.

>>for me to know the Egyptians had embedded 22/7 into the great pyramid speaks volumes....more than the internet chatter you offer.
>>for me to know that we can connect the formula 22/7 to the Holy Spirit...is proof.

>>also the fact that the swastika is connected to a solution for pi that PREDATES (maybe antedates threw you off?) freemasonry...suggests what?

so the fact the Egyptians used it, and the fact nobody in the the dumb and numb mainstream discusses this connection between pi and the swastika says what?

that the swastika is merely a solar symbol used by NAZIs?
hahaha what a numb and dumb herd we are....

OH yeah....the swastika was also used as a proof in China for the Pythagorean theorem.


The MAIN point here that I wanted to introduce is that there is an esoteric element we should be considering...

the value of pi is NOT the point I am trying to make ya math plebe.
YOU ARE TOO IGNORANT to see the connections between the SWASTIKA and all I present, including the SATOR Square and all I wrote about in my introduction to this thread....
go back a few steps....YOU GOT LOST along the way....

ALSO why is that solution for pi on a 16x16 grid, involving the SWASTIKA on the same grid that I would use to express the 256 notes of the Lambdoma?

Show me how your IGNORANT pi connects to music?

this is not a discussion about 'true value of pi' but more about its HISTORY DUDE....

and how the ESOTERIC has some value.
So unless any of you can suggest why they buried the SWASTIKA using math...and religion (like the big pie in the sky lie called jeSuS) I shall continue to offer my info linking the SATOR SQUARE TO VORTEX BASED MATH and the SWASTIKA and the Maltese Cross.

EWE HAVE NOT A CLUE
OBVIOUSLY

Do you think your pi = 3.141 etc NEGATES the GREAT PYRAMID?

No clinging to all you spew as some kind of gospel negates real history and helps to support the creation of more bull#...

too bad the flock of EWE on this thread love numbers but IGNORE Pythagoras and the fact the numbers 1-9 came from India....where the SWASTIKA is still revered as a GOD.

duh
my argument is more about showing how IGNORANT you are about the ESOTERIC.

And your argument is to step forward and show I am right?
Keep it up.

REMEMBER, go back a few posts, the math only, keep myth out of it plebes, like yourself, suggest the esoteric mythical history has nothing to do with 'today'.

I say you are wrong.
Here is another challenge to take back to your blackboard jungle...
USE your bull# math to prove SPACE is a VACUUM.
go ahead Einstein make my day....

Figures lie and IGNORANT sheeple rebleat non-sense till the end of time...

Lets discuss phi and why it was VEILed by the CHURCH too okay?

HEY why would they VEIL laws of nature, i.e. (phi) golden spiral and the swastika (vortex theory) from the nature loving pagans, replacing all of their pagan holidays with Saintly ones?

the herd of ewe should read more myth less math.

namaste


[edit on 13-3-2010 by CHiram_Abiff]



posted on Mar, 13 2010 @ 06:44 AM
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reply to post by CHiram_Abiff
 


Can you reduce your blathering, sprawling ideas into a single coherent argument? How can Pi being more than a few decimal places "negate the pyramids"?? You are not really being very rational here.



posted on Mar, 13 2010 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by CHiram_Abiff
Can you build a pyramid using your pi?

Yes -- a pyramid can be built using the standard accepted value of Pi.

However, you don't need pi to build a pyramid -- and even if a deliberate relationship between pi and the Great Pyramid may exist, the builders did not need to know an exact value of pi to build to build it. That's because pi is not an imaginary concept, but a real ratio between a circle's diameter and its circumference.

Therefore, if you simply use a circle in certain ways while designing a pyramid, the value for pi will "accidentally" and automatically be incorporated into the design. The ratio of "Pi" exists in a circle whether we are aware of that ratio or not.



posted on Mar, 13 2010 @ 09:47 AM
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Originally posted by CHiram_Abiff

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
Could you please post Mr. Jain's formula? You seem convinced he is right, so you must have it.


I don't have it.
I don't really need it?


OK, let me get this straight (because now I'm not sure what you are trying to argue)...

...You say that the standard accepted value for Pi is wrong (3.14159265359...).
You also go on to give me a link to a website for a guy (named "Jain") who says he calculated Pi to be 3.144605512 -- but the link gave no details as to the derivation of this value.

So when I ask you for the reasons why you say the accepted value is wrong and Mr. Jain's value is right, you say you don't even know where Jain's value for Pi come from. So how do you know he is right! Also, you haven't explain why the accepted value is wrong.

Why in the world should I take what you say seriously if you have no evidence?

To come out and say "some guy on the internet says the value for Pi is wrong" is not a good enough reason for me to believe it's wrong -- and shouldn't be a good enough reason for you to say so, either.



[edit on 3/13/2010 by Soylent Green Is People]



posted on Mar, 13 2010 @ 10:39 AM
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Being as this is in the SCIENCE forum I believe Mr. CHiram_Abiff's posts are entirely OFF TOPIC.

Having scanned thru the entire post I believe that Arbitrageur is correct and this particular question was answered succinctly and correctly by Byrd and others. I referenced the Principia Mathmatica as I'd not seen it mentioned at all in the entire post and I thought it relevant to the general topic.

Scanning thru these posts has been fun and at times hilarious - one incident where a poster inadvertently discovered calculus was memorable, but now it has devolved into a nonsensical debate between science and mysticism.
I'm afraid I cannot compete with faith. I just don't have the energy or time.



posted on Mar, 13 2010 @ 10:50 AM
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reply to post by Smack
 


Yes -- you are right. The OP had a mathematical fallacy in his very first post, (therefore there should be nothing more to argue about)

the OP stated:

.999=x
10x=9.999
10x - x = 9x
9x=9
1x=1.
.999 = 1.

However, the 4th line "9x = 9"
does not follow mathematically from the 3rd line "10x - x = 9x"
nor does if follow from anything else said above it

So everything after that is wrong.

*

And if CHiram_Abiff wants to present his case for the accepted value of Pi being wrong, then he should start his own thread, along with evidence backing up his claim. He can also discuss the relationship between Pi and the Great Pyramid in that thread (and again do so with evidence).



[edit on 3/13/2010 by Soylent Green Is People]



posted on Mar, 13 2010 @ 01:26 PM
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Originally posted by Smack
Being as this is in the SCIENCE forum I believe Mr. CHiram_Abiff's posts are entirely OFF TOPIC.


I agree and this is why I didn't address the assertion that pi is 3.144. If a wise man engages in a debate with a fool, it then becomes difficult to tell which is the fool. There's no place for a debate in a science forum about Pi being 3.144.

Of course when I measured pi by throwing frozen hot dogs around, my answer was a little bit off like that too, maybe that's how he came up with 3.144 since nobody here seems to know:

How to Calculate Pi by Throwing Frozen Hot Dogs

But at least I admit that number is an estimate, and yes this is off topic, sorry for that, but thanks for agreeing with Byrd and by extension, with me, about the on topic subject of 0.999....



posted on Mar, 13 2010 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

OK, let me get this straight (because now I'm not sure what you are trying to argue)...



you want me to prove to you about blah blah blah...
shall we ask folks who could build something incredible what they used as guide?

1/ did the Egyptian use your pi or 22/7?
2/ is the swastika a clue as to how to arrive at a solution for pi?
3/ is the 16x16 grid connected to that solution for pi and the pythagorean lambdoma?


these 3 questions only requires 3 simple answers.

answer those esoteric questions about pi.
that is how this debate came about.

the argument is whether esoteric clues have any validity along side modern math and physics.
go back to my first post on this thread.


[edit on 13-3-2010 by CHiram_Abiff]



posted on Mar, 13 2010 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
And if CHiram_Abiff wants to present his case for the accepted value of Pi being wrong, then he should start his own thread, along with evidence backing up his claim. He can also discuss the relationship between Pi and the Great Pyramid in that thread (and again do so with evidence).


I agree.

Originally posted by CHiram_Abiff
1/ did the Egyptian use your pi or 22/7?
2/ is the swastika a diplomat for to arrive at a solution for pi?
3/ is the 16x16 grid connected to that solution for pi and the pythagorean lambdoma?


these 3 questions only requires 3 simple answers.


But this thread isn't about pi, or 22/7 or any of that other stuff.
CHiram_Abiff, please start a separate thread and please don't do it in the science forum unless you have scientific proof to back up your claims, which obviously, you don't.

Since it seems to include math used in Ancient and Lost civilizations, maybe that would be an appropriate place to start your thread?

Ancient & Lost Civilizations Discussion Forum

Or else mysticism, but the source you quote isn't science, so it's off-topic in this thread and also in this forum.



posted on Mar, 13 2010 @ 02:37 PM
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Originally posted by Arbitrageur


But this thread isn't about pi, or 22/7 or any of that other stuff.
CHiram_Abiff, please start a separate thread and please don't do it in the science forum unless you have scientific proof to back up your claims, which obviously, you don't.



no kidding dude...
glad you are finally with the program...
www.abovetopsecret.com...&addstar=1&on=8304860#pid8304860

the debate BEGAN when I offered some interesting esoteric info that confused the herd on this thread because you could not enter the info into your calculators or formula.

screwed ya up good.
like I knew it would...

so seeing that nobody has proved to me why those anomalies about pi exist, why should I leave...because the IGNORANT bleat so?

besides which this is debate is not about the value of pi, but whether ancient wisdom accounts for anything in this modern age?

it should.

maybe if you learn to ignore me...instead of exerting your pi in the sky egos defending a really stupid comment regarding 'mystical nonsense', our past having no bearing on modern reality...the thread might stay on course...

Why was pi = 22/7 sufficient to build great monuments for a civilization that lasted 4000 years?

If 22/7 was good enough to help design the great pyramid...why should I answer folks who dis 22/7, the Egyptians and me?

Why waste my time?
And why can I connect so many profound religious/scientific concepts to the swastika?

namaste


[edit on 13-3-2010 by CHiram_Abiff]



posted on Mar, 13 2010 @ 02:42 PM
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reply to post by CHiram_Abiff
 


No, it didn't. You vomited specious ignorance on the thread, then got confused when people called you out, as this particular specious ignorance you seem to think is real. In the ensuing bout cognitive dissonance, you somehow convinced yourself that you were, in fact, right all along. Which you weren't.

Aaaah good ol' "esoteric" enthusiasts on ATS. Always good for a laugh, and can always be relied on to derail a thread like no one's business.



posted on Mar, 13 2010 @ 03:09 PM
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Originally posted by davesidious
reply to post by CHiram_Abiff
 


No, it didn't. You vomited specious ignorance on the thread, then got confused when people called you out, as this particular specious ignorance you seem to think is real. In the ensuing bout cognitive dissonance, you somehow convinced yourself that you were, in fact, right all along. Which you weren't.

Aaaah good ol' "esoteric" enthusiasts on ATS. Always good for a laugh, and can always be relied on to derail a thread like no one's business.


no I didn't what?
duh what are 'you' referring to now?

You folks want me to produce the JAIN evidence of the pi he claims?
here is what I found:
www.fho-emden.de...

fellas build me a pyramid using 22/7
I know it can be done ...

YOU fellas are not wanting to address my other swastika = pi connection.
WHY?
ESTORICALLY IGNORANT?
Frightened what kind of other profound swastikas are to be found in the closet?

So discuss why the SATOR SQUARE does not match VBM...
that is the argument I proposed...

and the first response on this thread directed toward me, was IGNORANT, the math MOB followed....been downhill ever since.

MATH MOB or RELGIOUS wackos love to jump on the bandwagon.
Ever notice.

It is what defines a MOB....IGNORANCE of other beliefs.

So explain why one of the Wonders of the Ancient World does NOT use your pi but 22/7?

eh?
you folks must be math savy but esoterically IGNORANT to plod along eh?

Your culture built on many IGNORANCEs will not last as long as the 4000 year old Egyptian one, that used 22/7 for pi.

None of you can explain how to build the great pyramid using 22/7 ....
but they did.

And the debate is whether the esoteric has any bearing...not who knows more about pi...

Explain why the 16x16 grid apparently helps solve pi and is associated with the lambdoma and the swastika?

ah
music
frequencies

numbers
vibrations

math without myth
is a string theory without music....

the day the math plebe rules the world ....
give me BOTH a red and blue pill

namaste

[edit on 13-3-2010 by CHiram_Abiff]



posted on Mar, 13 2010 @ 03:41 PM
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Let's keep this thread on topic. The various points regarding pi could indeed consitute its' own thread.

Thank you.



posted on Mar, 13 2010 @ 03:58 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Mar, 13 2010 @ 06:16 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 





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