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.9 repeating = 1? Is our numerical system flawed?

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posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 01:33 AM
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Originally posted by ALLis0NE
Is it because the answer goes against your beliefs of infinity?


No, it's because infinity has no end and you are still yet to realize that and embrace it. You are continuously pushing that there must exist a 1 at the end, when you still don't realize that there is no end.

1 - .999... = ???... leave it at that, because that's the answer you're going to get. To change it to anything else including .000...1, is incorrect and not a valid representation of infinity.




posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 02:20 AM
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Originally posted by ALLis0NE
1 - .9 = .1
1 - .99 = .01
1 - .999 = .001
1 - .9999 = .0001
1 - .99999... = ?????

I don't need a calculator to know the above answer. It just simple logic, that no matter how many 9's I add, the answer will always have a 1 at the end. Why is it only different with a never ending decimal REPRESENTATION for you people? Is it because the answer goes against your beliefs of infinity?


A calculator CANNOT give you the above answer. There IS NO ANSWER. You CANNOT subtract that.

0.999... + 0.99...1 (or 1 - 0.00...1) DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING because the first has INFINATELY REPEATING 9's While the second is a limit of nines that ends with 1. You are confusing 0.00...1 with 0.00...1... which never ends and doesn't (i.e. CANNOT) have a "1" at the last place:

0.00...1...1...1... (see?, no "LAST PLACE" EVER EXISTS) unless you make it a limit of infinity. You are not grasping the concept of infinity. There is no last place, no "remainder" no anything that you can operate at from the "process" unless you are dealing with more advanced math (which you haven't been espousing in your argument at all, so one must assume that you are not familiar with certain axioms of set and limit theory [e.g. The Axiom of choice])

I'm not going to say you don't understand BASIC math as others have (because it is OBVIOUSLY not BASIC math [those people are being very pretentious and pompous], but you obviously have not taken anything above high school ALGEBRA (If you have, then you missed the finer points of function limits in college algebra). There is absolutely no way that you have taken trig or calculus (if you have, you must have learned it completely by ROTE)

I know, at first it DOES seem counter-intuitive. There really is NOTHING to be embarassed about if you don't understand it. I minored in Mathematics (and a bit more as it was initially my major) when I went to college, and thought it was absurd at first (when I learned it in highschool!), but that was just do to ignorance of the the decimal system. 0.999... IS NOT a decimal (nor even a NUMBER [for the most part... [it can be, but not really.. haha]]) as I have said before. It looks like one, but it's a whole other concept of numbers. You really have to understand that even though 1/3 and 0.333... are the equal, they are completely different concepts. So is 0, and so is infinity (some would say 0=infinity [or 0.000...). Most people never ever delve into any advanced mathematical concepts, so it is easier for practicality's sake and confusion to teach high school students hasty generalizations of matematics.

All I can request that you do, again, is to enroll in a college algebra course (which will give you a BASIC understanding of LIMITS (something that you are INTUITIVELY ascribing to the concept of INFINITY in this case), and take a Trig & Calc course that will further show you what you are not grasping)

There IS A REASON why we have mathematics classes that extend FAR ABOVE what HIGH SCHOOL students are taught. You are going into a partially ADVANCED (not really, but OK) CONCEPT such as 0.999... = 1 and saying that IT IS NOT TRUE. Yet, it is - but you will not accept it purely for lack of understanding of mathematics (again, it is counter-intuitive)

Yet, like I said: Give me a number that you can add to 0.999... to make it equal 1.

You can't. There is nothing between the two - they are, in fact, the same number. 0.999... = 1.

You just need to accept that for the most part you are wrong, and fighting an uphill battle against logic and mathematical proof; however, you are fighting a downhill battle ON THE SIDE of intuition - but intuition is wrong in this case.

Intuition (e.g. gut, feeling) is sometimes an evil creature that would lead us astray in our search for understanding of the universe.

This has nothing to do with a FLAW in the decimal (or "numerical" )system, because 0.999... is not a decima



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 02:21 AM
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reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
 


Well according to all of you...

1 - .99999... = ZERO

Which is completly rediculous, because it goes against this chart:

1 - .9 = .1
1 - .99 = .01
1 - .999 = .001
1 - .9999 = .0001
1 - .99999... =

No matter how many 9's you add, there will be a 1 left over. To think anything else would be just ignorant.

The topic of this thread is to figure out if 1 is equal to .9... and the answer is NO not mathetmaticaly, technicaly there is a small bit missing. It is not 100% equal. It is more like 99.99999...% equal.



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 02:33 AM
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Originally posted by ALLis0NE

1 - .99999... = ZERO

Which is completly rediculous, because it goes against this chart:

1 - .9 = .1
1 - .99 = .01
1 - .999 = .001
1 - .9999 = .0001
1 - .99999... =


Yes, infinity = 0. I've been trying to tell you this. What is 0? 0 is absence. What is 0? Zero is immeasurable, no beginning and no end. What is absence? Absence is immeasurable, no beginning and no end. What is infinity? Infinity is immeasurable. Anything that is IMMEASRUABLE = 0.

"..." is immeasurable continuation. No, not that 9's are continuously being added, but that the immeasurability is continuous, there is never a point of finality or measurement.


No matter how many 9's you add, there will be a 1 left over. To think anything else would be just ignorant.


Do you understand what "..." means yet? Excuse my harsh tone. It's pretty ridiculous to use it on the internet since I can just type whatever I want and change it at a moments notice.


The topic of this thread is to figure out if 1 is equal to .9... and the answer is NO not mathetmaticaly, technicaly there is a small bit missing. It is not 100% equal. It is more like 99.99999...% equal.


99.999... % = is 100% if 100% = infinity.

You don't understand physical reality and that is your problem. When you can take ONE thing and completely remove it from the eternity of space and time, then I'll agree with you that .999... is not equal to 1, because in that universe .999... would not exist, as there is no infinity and there could be division, but it would only be limited, and there would only be an individual 1 that can be divided only a finite amount of times. Fortunately this universe is eternal and so are its mathematical computations and algorithms along with its concepts and all of things prove themselves when the true essence of physical reality, that which is an immeasurable singularity, is either accepted or understood.

[edit on 7-4-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 02:34 AM
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Originally posted by Former CIA Agent

Originally posted by ALLis0NE
1 - .9 = .1
1 - .99 = .01
1 - .999 = .001
1 - .9999 = .0001
1 - .99999... = ?????


A calculator CANNOT give you the above answer. There IS NO ANSWER. You CANNOT subtract that.



Like I said, you don't need a calculator to get the answer. LOL. Its a PATTERN!! An infinite PATTERN. I don't care what you believe exists or not, it is fact that there is a one in the answer to the above equation.



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 03:20 AM
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Seriously, get a piece of paper, and do this long division...



...no matter how long I force myself to continue this above long division, there is always a remainder that will never be accounted for in the answer.

This means .9... is always 1 bit less than 1 whole.

[edit on 7-4-2008 by ALLis0NE]



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 03:52 AM
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reply to post by ALLis0NE
 


No thanks.

Never ending remainder one, eh? Another way of saying the infinite one because actually your summation would be *1...*, not "1".

I see that you're going to continue to deny definitions of words such as infinity and you don't want to take time to understand anything, yet you're asking questions and making propositions to people.

It was a rather boring and uneventful discussion, the insults rolled off of me like pebbles down a mountainous slope, and in the end you still don't understand what an -immeasurable- continuation is. Continuity of immeasurability, not a constance of measurement. C-ya buddy.


there is always a remainder that will never be accounted for in the answer.


There is never a remainder that will ever be accounted for in the answer.

What it is telling you is that there is NO remainder(s) to be accounted for.

Listen to the Math and the numbers, they are SPEAKING to you, allow them to be heard and stop trying to force something that isn't true onto them.

And - If there is ALWAYS a remainder that will NEVER be accounted for, then where is your evidence that there is a remainder? (the only thing that can never be accounted for is something that does not or never will exist, therefore there is no remainder) This is flawed logic based on a poor understanding of one, which is not whole, but in fact infinite.

There is only a constance of measurement when you attempt to measure the continuity of immeasurability.

Simplified: There is measurement through the measure of the immeasurable.

[edit on 7-4-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 04:42 AM
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If this stuff keeps you awake at night better give calculus a miss


I recommend using the elementary school style integer/modulo style division as it's absolutely accurate with no discrepancies at all - a nice mix of analog and digital styles that compensates for the shortcomings of both.

using it to divide 8 by 3,
integer division (unrounded) 8/3=2
the remainder 8 mod 3 = 2
and since the divisor is 3, it means 2/3
so the answer is 2 and 2/3
More exact than 2.666667 no matter how many decimal places you use.

You might remember the basic techniques of mixing fractions as long you manipulate the divisors correctly by multiplying them.

eg. 1/3 + 1/7 = 7/21 + 3/21 = 10/21 & again totally precise

We didn't always have calculators and computers, I was 20 before I got my first slide rule



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 05:02 AM
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reply to post by Pilgrum
 


Absolutly GREAT post.



[edit on 7-4-2008 by ALLis0NE]



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 05:39 AM
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hinduism.about.com...


If you want to subtract 4679 from 10000, you can easily apply the Nikhilam Navatashcaramam Dashatah sutra ("All from 9 and the last from 10"). Each figure in 4679 is subtracted from 9 and the last figure is subtracted from 10, yielding 5321. Similarly, other sutras lay down such simple rules of calculation.


Basically, "all from 9 and the last from 10" is backwards subtraction. Same thing, just backwards. This is the method you can use to subtract .9... from 1. Then it will show you the REMAINDER I am talking about.. I'm sorry you are so used to subtracting the other direction...




Originally posted by Former CIA Agent
A calculator CANNOT give you the above answer. There IS NO ANSWER. You CANNOT subtract that.


Yes you can calculate it, but do you really have time too? Use the method above..



time to rewrite wiki.


Imagine a book that had no numbers in it, yet the entire thing was about mathematics, in a different language. lol



[edit on 7-4-2008 by ALLis0NE]



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 06:04 AM
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Not time to re-write wiki. Time for you to go to college and start listening to people, and get a well paying job so you don't stay up all night talking circles of self contradicting non-sense. These things are known world wide, you didn't just make a great discovery.

1.00...
-.333...
______
.777.....

It goes forever, too. We can use this same concept on every repeating decimal, and it's been explained the universe over through the past several pages by at least 3 posters and a mod.

To me it is evident that you have no idea what you're doing, what you're trying to do, or what you're trying to understand, nor do I think you know what is going on. You're just gathering knowledge to try and comprehend something that you don't and when and where you're wrong you then evolve the discussion toward a new goal, but everyone leads to the same answer. Infinity has no end, therefore the premise of why you came here is answered and it's ok for you to now absorb the knowledge you have gained and abscond with pleasure and thanks. You should try it, it works better than insulting people and telling people that have been to college and back that they have no idea of what they speak.



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 06:18 AM
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reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
 


Do you even remember what the topic of the thread is?

It's about .9... being equal to 1. I have proven many times, that .9... is not equal to 1, because there is always 1 bit missing to make it 1.0.

I just proved that, by subtracting .9... from 1, giving us this 1 bit remainder I am talking about...


[edit on 7-4-2008 by ALLis0NE]



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 06:32 AM
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reply to post by ALLis0NE
 


Fortunately I do not suffer from short term memory: Yes I remember the topic of this thread.

I posted here on this thread a few pages (months) back before you ever entered the scene.

Since you've enetered you've made the claim that infinity eventually terminates revealing a definite conclusion and an absolutely finite numerical concept. Everything that you've presented has been shown to be incorrect. The only thing you now stand by is that .999... can not = 1.

Everything you've tried to prove that has thus far failed. Yes, I can have one plate, but that plate is interconnected to everything, there is no space of absence that can ever exist to separate it from anything. So materially I recognize the plate for its optical and elementally atomic properties, but mentally and through universal energy I know the plate is not 1, rather it is a fraction of eternity and therefore equivelent to something the likes of a repeating decimal. But it can not even be a repating decimal because eternity (the universe) itself can never be whole because it has no beginning and no end (so more properly the plate would be an infinity of infinity, since there can't be a fraction of infinity)... yet because of this I know that there is no space ever to exist to allow another eternity. Thus there is only one eternity, but it is immeasurable and beyond all encompassing.

Hmmm... why do I continue to help you. I'll go meditate now. Have a good night. Think about getting that well paying job because you'd deserve it and probably a hott wife or husband depending what your preference is.


1.0 - .999... will never have an outcome because the equation is not final, it never stops. It eventually equals one infinity.

[edit on 7-4-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 07:01 AM
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reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
 


Please answer this, and only this...

What do I do with the remainder??

all from nine last from ten



I'll just put it here:

.000...1

1 - .9 = .1
1 - .99 = .01
1 - .999 = .001
1 - .999...= .000...1



[edit on 7-4-2008 by ALLis0NE]

[edit on 7-4-2008 by ALLis0NE]



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 08:05 AM
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reply to post by ALLis0NE
 


Again, why are you still arguing? This is basically the 2nd time already that you have admitted that 1/3 is equal to .33333333...

So there is no argument anymore. It's over. You've admitted your wrong.

AllisONE agrees with us fellas, he just doesn't realize it.


Quit letting him get you off topic with stupid questions.

He's admitted 1/3 = .333333...

He's admitted 1/3 = .333333... and there is always a remainder left over.

And yet, even though .33333... is short of 1, it's always moving towards 1, and eventually becomes one.



I used to



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 08:07 AM
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reply to post by ALLis0NE
 


No remainder, you know that.

The answer is 0.

Did you ever accurately represent .99999... on a number scale without using symbols?



Good luck with that, oh higher being (that you so claim to be). Us humans will continue using our current math system until you prove otherwise.

[edit on 7-4-2008 by Sublime620]



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by Sublime620
He's admitted 1/3 = .333333... and there is always a remainder left over.


LOL. Yes 1 divided "/" by 3 = .333333... with 1 remainder left over, YES! Now, what are you doing with the remainder? Where did it go?



Originally posted by Sublime620
And yet, even though .33333... is short of 1, it's always moving towards 1, and eventually becomes one.


LOL, .33333... is NOT "short of" 1 LOL! It's not even moving towards 1 LOL, its not even moving at ALL. I think you are mistaking it for .9... LOL

.9... is way closer to 1 than .3... LOL

But of course, .9... is not "getting closer" to anything. LOL



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 08:28 AM
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Originally posted by Sublime620

Did you ever accurately represent .99999... on a number scale without using symbols?



Why are you using my very own argumentative questions against me? I asked YOU to do that. And you failed, so now you are asking me. Great strategy
. If you really want to know where it is on the number line. IT IS EXACTLY TO THE LEFT OF 1.

If you want to know a precise measurement of the distance it is away from 1, I suggest subtracting .9... from 1.

Depending on how accurate you want to be, will depend how far you calculate .9... For the most accuracy I suggest going at least a million places. Now keep in mind, that doesn't mean you are getting closer to one, that just means you are more accurately being exactly to the left of 1. Which means it will never be equal to 1.




[edit on 7-4-2008 by ALLis0NE]



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 08:36 AM
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reply to post by ALLis0NE
 


How is that your argument? Your argument is that it does exist on the number line, mine is that it does not, and cannot be displayed without symbols.

With symbols, .9999999... is the last "number" to the left before 1. However, it can't really be displayed because the number is constantly changing and moving towards infinity.

.99999999999... does not exist on the number scale, it's not a number. It can't be a number, it is ALWAYS changing, that is, until it reaches it's destination (i.e. limit)

So, what I'm trying to say is:

Quit using the number scale as a way to prove that 1 - .000000000...1 = .99999999...

First of all, .000000000000...1 is not a number. How can the .00000... go to infinity if there is a number on the end?

Second, even if it was, it is not a number by definition, because it is always changing. It's many numbers that are symbolized by the ... at the end.


So again, I ask you:

Can you display .999999... on the number line without symbols?

[edit on 7-4-2008 by Sublime620]



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 05:44 PM
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Intuitively, one might say that car + truck = SUV, but that is really nonsense because 1 - carrot = 0.

ALLisONE seems to have all the bricks in order, but just doesn't realize that he made a house yet:



Depending on how accurate you want to be, will depend how far you calculate .9... For the most accuracy I suggest going at least a million places. Now keep in mind, that doesn't mean you are getting closer to one, that just means you are more accurately being exactly to the left of 1. Which means it will never be equal to 1.


ALLisONE, you do not calculate ".9... however 'far you want for accuracy'" without a limit: Imagine that you have before you a holographic representation of 10 apparent sets of shoes that create real shoes when you pick them from the hologram. Now, each and every time you remove one pair (a limit) of shoes from that hologram, another pair (no limit) of shoes fills in the spot on the hologram. Infinity minus 1 equals infinity; zero plus 1 equals 1. You may say that you have taken 1 + 1 + 1 pairs of shoes over any arbitrary time; however, the hologram has infinite pairs of shoes (and so do you in this system). You just have not realized it yet because you are ignoring the hologram and concentrating on what you perceive as "real shoes" when they are just as "fake" as the hologram. The perception of "subjective usability" is what you are concentrating on, I think.

You are trying to differentiate your personal limit of shoes for the infinite hologram that you have taken them from when saying that 0.999... does not equal 1, even though the potential for infinity is there in your set of shoes. You actually have an infinite set of real shoes (which you intuitively perceive as limited in their existence because you are putting a line between the source of creation and creation itself [i.e. ignoring causality]) if you do not impose the intuitive limit (really just a perception) that corresponds with the actuality of the shoes being a physical and not holographical existence. There is no limit to 0.999... because it extends infinitely. Calculating it however "far you want to a million places" robs it from infinity and makes it finite - a completely different concept because you can measure it to a limit. You cannot measure the infinite. 0.999...1 can only be operated with another number of that type, 0.998...2 (which really only has theoretical uses... or not). There is no conversion to a real actual number that does not arbitrarily extend-into-whatever-length besides maybe a fraction for practicalities sake. I think what you are actually doing is putting TOO MUCH faith into what you have learned to be mathematics.

1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1

measurable + measurable + measurable = measurable

0.333... + 0.333... + 0.333... = 0.999... = 1

immeasurable + immeasurable + immeasurable = immeasurable = 1 immeasurable thing (because only humans measure things arbitrarily). It's all counter-intuitive mathematical philosophy. You might want to remember that a photon can be a wave AND/OR a particle as it might provide some type of insight.

This is all probably a really bad example because I'm drunk (I just can't handle coming here while sober!
) and don't know how I'm supposed to explain this in simple terms, but it's very counter-intuitive; however, does it "click"?

ALLisONE, this is probably something that you will just have to overcome with an "Ah-ha!" moment since you seem to be against (for whatever reason) taking more advanced mathematics courses and learning about the philosophy of math (ironic, no?), so I'd suggest that you try not to defend your position so boldly as to slow down or even prohibit the fruition of "Ah-ha!" because of a false belief that you hold: There is no limit to 0.999... period - unless you want there to be... haha.

There really is no argument in this thread, because you actually agree with me (and others) but you don't realize it.



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