Conspiracy: God has an attitude problem.

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posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 09:28 AM
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God is a joke.

And a poor one at that. If there is any conspiracy involved with the whole god thing then it is a conspiracy gainst the suckers who fall for it. These folks have been bilked for so long that it isn't funny anymore and yet they still consider it a priveledge and will kill anyone who dares to think differently. What a joke!

And neo we have to put up with neo-religions offering a watered down, easily digestible version of the same detestable doctrine. So now the joke isn't even funny anymore.




posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 10:06 AM
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Originally posted by JamesBlonde
If there is any conspiracy involved with the whole god thing then it is a conspiracy gainst the suckers who fall for it. These folks have been bilked for so long that it isn't funny anymore and yet they still consider it a priveledge and will kill anyone who dares to think differently.


Obviously you think differently. Have I killed you? Is that not a direct contradiction to the Book by which I live my life in both the Old and New Testaments? For those needing reference, Exodus 20:13 and Matthew 5:43.



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 10:30 PM
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I made my comments on this subject in another thread.
It seemed at that time to offend some. But I want to say it again just because I like saying it.

I believe in the concept of a supreme being representing a supreme intellect, supreme conscienceness, and supreme compassion and creativity. I don't find alot of information on that God, around.

I don't believe in the God of the Old and New Testament or the God of the Quran. That is a egotistical, insecure and selfish personality that is responsible for the most horrindus subjugation and decimation of humankind throughout history. This is my opinion of organized religion as well. This personality is not capable of the compassion and creativity needed to be a supreme anything. Just my two cents.

[edit on 7-4-2005 by freddieb]



posted on Apr, 8 2005 @ 02:05 AM
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If we're all being punished with death because Adam and Eve disobeyed God, then why don't we have the option of submitting to God at some point in our lives and avoiding death? Obviously since we're born from sinners, we're born into sin, but why can't we bypass pain of death when we accept that God is the Savior or whatever it is that he desires from us?



posted on Apr, 8 2005 @ 07:56 AM
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Originally posted by Curmudgeon
If we're all being punished with death because Adam and Eve disobeyed God, then why don't we have the option of submitting to God at some point in our lives and avoiding death? Obviously since we're born from sinners, we're born into sin, but why can't we bypass pain of death when we accept that God is the Savior or whatever it is that he desires from us?


This is a very good question, if anyone would like to assist feel free.

To answer the first question, we are avoiding eternal death. This life is the time we have to decide if we want life beyond a physical death or not.

As I'd understood it, Adam and Eve had perfect form without pain and disease. Once it was flawed by disobedience, we need to get rid of it to get back to that perfect form. If I had to spend eternity in this body, I'd guarentee I'd be pretty bitter about life around age 300 something. We need to be transformed mentally and emotionally first, then we can take on the perfect form again so that it too isn't tainted with the wrong nature we've developed. A Christian isn't looking to bypass death because it's not the end. It's a necessary change, albeit sometimes a painful one, in order to grow into a body free from all the sicknesses we endure here. In fact, 80 years (give or take) is just a stitch in the fabric of eternity. Knowing all this discomfort we have to put up with is temporary also provides strength.

In addition, if Christians had perfect bodies and those who did not believe didn't then it wouldn't take any faith to believe in God at all. The proof would be obvious. Since we moved away from God in the beginning, He wants us to make the effort to come back to him. We've got to employ things like love, hope, and trust in Him in order to redeem this rebellious nature. For example, if you had an argument with your significant other and they clearly wronged you, you'd want them to come back to you and say they're sorry. It's then that you're willing to forgive him/her if they're determined not to do it again. God is no different. We've wronged Him, so He's waiting for us to come back, say "I messed up" and pledge to not sin against Him anymore. A lot of us believe the Bible is the book of rules, but that's just not the case. It started being read that way when Jesus came along and broke it down for us in a very basic way of understanding. 1.) Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul and 2.) Love others as yourself. We're missing those loves. Why do people reject love? I don't know...


[edit on 8-4-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Apr, 8 2005 @ 08:08 AM
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Originally posted by ufo_believer
karma through reincarnation. ... we'll come back on this planet several
million times to make up for mistakes that we can't even remember
" Seriously who'd WANT to live more than one life in this world when they REALLY think abut it

Oh man ... you said it!! How can you 'learn' when you can't even
remember what your supposed past life lessons are? And you are
so right ... I definately don't want to be here more than this one
time that I have to be. The thought of continued reincarnation is
sooooooooo depressing. UGH!



posted on Apr, 8 2005 @ 08:14 AM
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Originally posted by freddieb
I believe in the concept of a supreme being representing a supreme intellect, supreme conscienceness, and supreme compassion and creativity.


Me too.


Originally posted by freddieb
I don't find alot of information on that God, around.

I don't believe in the God of the Old and New Testament...

This personality is not capable of the compassion and creativity needed to be a supreme anything. Just my two cents.


Okay, let's go here.

Compassion: Despite wrong after wrong after wrong that people have committed against God, He's still willing to invite us to be with him. How many times do you have to wrong a person before they leave or shut you out? One? Two? Maybe Three if they're really forgiving, but God throughout the old testament was getting defied, accused, ignored, and hated. Yet, throughout it all He still demonstrated His love.

Creativity: I'm surprised that He's being challenged here to be MORE creative, because the big issue a lot of us people have is the fact that He's TOO creative. Even to the extent that He's hard to comprehend sometimes with miracles, prophecy, Jesus' whole story, omnipotency, demons, eternal life, Holy Spirit, angels, Satan, etc. Maybe it'll help if you can share what is it you're looking for?



posted on Apr, 8 2005 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Compassion: Despite wrong after wrong after wrong that people have committed against God, He's still willing to invite us to be with him. How many times do you have to wrong a person before they leave or shut you out? One? Two? Maybe Three if they're really forgiving, but God throughout the old testament was getting defied, accused, ignored, and hated. Yet, throughout it all He still demonstrated His love.


Did he?

Let me point out that Jehovah is (according to the Bible) omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. This means he knows all, sees all, hears all, and creates all from the beginning of time to the end of time.

So, when he said "I think I'll make Earth" he knew that if he put down THIS particular pattern exactly how many people would be "saved" and so forth. There are no surprises. He knows, in fact, if he decided to offer favor and kindness to followers exactly how it would impact them and the rest of the world.

And since he's omnipotent, he could have created a paradise world where Satan wasn't allowed (remember, the moment he created the Universe, he knew what Satan's role would be. He could have changed things to change that role. Or he could have chosen to NOT create Satan.)

So, you can assume that everyone's behavior is exactly as ordained and not one more person will be saved (no matter what YOUR efforts are) than Jehovah pre-ordained from the moment he put the universe together.

And the fact that according to Jehovah, MOST of humanity is gonig to hell, has gone to hell, and will go to hell is exactly the fate he chose for us (because he could have stepped in at any time to un-harden people's hearts (if you remember in the tale of the plagues and Pharoah letting the Israelites go, Jehovah steps in to HARDEN Pharoah's heart three times. Pharoah was going to let them go until Jehovah meddled.)

So Jehovah's concept of kindness is: create lots of people, drown all but six (and the animals, too!) and send them to hell (babies included. There's no "age of accountability" mentioned in the Bible), allow them to breed MORE people, most of whom he sends to hell.

...and then tell everyone what a great guy he is.


Creativity: I'm surprised that He's being challenged here to be MORE creative, because the big issue a lot of us people have is the fact that He's TOO creative. Even to the extent that He's hard to comprehend sometimes with miracles, prophecy, Jesus' whole story, omnipotency, demons, eternal life, Holy Spirit, angels, Satan, etc.

It's much easier to attribute them to "stories about a tribal god that were mostly made up. Makes a lot more sense that way.



posted on Apr, 8 2005 @ 09:10 AM
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Byrd has a bunch of good points.

Hmmm ... gotta' go think about them ... very interesting
when it's put like that.



posted on Apr, 8 2005 @ 09:23 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Yet, throughout it all He still demonstrated His love.



Originally posted by Byrd
Did he?


Yep.


Originally posted by Byrd
Let me point out that Jehovah is (according to the Bible) omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. This means he knows all, sees all, hears all, and creates all from the beginning of time to the end of time.


I'm with ya so far.


Originally posted by Byrd
So, when he said "I think I'll make Earth" he knew that if he put down THIS particular pattern exactly how many people would be "saved" and so forth.


Ah, but that would negate the gift of free will, would it not? Why would God make a bunch of robots? Not a very interesting universe for even a human, let alone God.


Originally posted by Byrd
There are no surprises. He knows, in fact, if he decided to offer favor and kindness to followers exactly how it would impact them and the rest of the world.


Maybe, maybe not. Who knows? If he's all powerful, he could make mankind's ability to make a decision up to that person.


Originally posted by Byrd
And since he's omnipotent, he could have created a paradise world where Satan wasn't allowed (remember, the moment he created the Universe, he knew what Satan's role would be. He could have changed things to change that role. Or he could have chosen to NOT create Satan.)


You're right, but what would be the point? The Garden is a teaching tool we use to grow, understand ourselves, and ultimately become better people because of it. It just goes to show us people don't like to work for rewards. We want it dropped into our laps because we're 'sooo deserving'. We deserve to be like gods, right? That was the first mistake we made and it's one we're still making.


Originally posted by Byrd
So, you can assume that everyone's behavior is exactly as ordained and not one more person will be saved (no matter what YOUR efforts are) than Jehovah pre-ordained from the moment he put the universe together.


I do not believe everyone's behavior is exactly as ordained. Again, this negates free-will. If I believed 'exact ordained behavior' was true, you're right. My efforts would be in vain I would not spend any time or energy to it, because God would know it's a waste. I'm physical evidence that free-will exists.


Originally posted by Byrd
And the fact that according to Jehovah, MOST of humanity is gonig to hell, has gone to hell, and will go to hell is exactly the fate he chose for us


Fate? Where is this 'fate' you speak of being in the Bible?


Originally posted by Byrd
(because he could have stepped in at any time to un-harden people's hearts (if you remember in the tale of the plagues and Pharoah letting the Israelites go, Jehovah steps in to HARDEN Pharoah's heart three times. Pharoah was going to let them go until Jehovah meddled.)


The assumption here is that these things are happening without reason. From trial, tests of perseverance, comes growth. One needs to acquire wisdom to be mature and complete, not lacking anything.


Originally posted by Byrd
So Jehovah's concept of kindness is: create lots of people, drown all but six (and the animals, too!) and send them to hell


And, you've met all these people to verify they're in Hell? Yes they were killed, but I don't see where it says they're all in Hell. It sounds to me earth wasn't a great place to be at that time.


Originally posted by Byrd
(babies included.


Not babies - Luke 18:15.


Originally posted by Byrd
There's no "age of accountability" mentioned in the Bible), allow them to breed MORE people, most of whom he sends to hell.


People know when they sin. We lie to ourselves, rationalize to justify, but deep down we know. These are acts of selfishness, pride, hate, anger, fear, and spite. If we're going to deny until the day we die then we are already dead, for what life without love is worth living?


Originally posted by Byrd
...and then tell everyone what a great guy he is.


It's easy to talk about someone you know.


Originally posted by Byrd
It's much easier to attribute them to "stories about a tribal god that were mostly made up. Makes a lot more sense that way.


...disbelieve if you like, but you cannot affirm God according to the Bible is not creative



[edit on 8-4-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Apr, 8 2005 @ 09:48 AM
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How often do We stop and think,
Of life and its Conclusion?
How often do these very thoughts
Drive men into Reclusion?

Wandering, searching for an Answer,
Troubled hearts implore,
Minds can only hope to think
Of what It is all for.

While questions rise and theories fail
I bring this Interjection,
If we, who wander, need the truth,
Let us analyze Perfection.



posted on Apr, 8 2005 @ 09:36 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by saint4God
Compassion: Despite wrong after wrong after wrong that people have committed against God, He's still willing to invite us to be with him. How many times do you have to wrong a person before they leave or shut you out? One? Two? Maybe Three if they're really forgiving, but God throughout the old testament was getting defied, accused, ignored, and hated. Yet, throughout it all He still demonstrated His love.


Did he?

Let me point out that Jehovah is (according to the Bible) omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. This means he knows all, sees all, hears all, and creates all from the beginning of time to the end of time.

So, when he said "I think I'll make Earth" he knew that if he put down THIS particular pattern exactly how many people would be "saved" and so forth. There are no surprises. He knows, in fact, if he decided to offer favor and kindness to followers exactly how it would impact them and the rest of the world.

And since he's omnipotent, he could have created a paradise world where Satan wasn't allowed (remember, the moment he created the Universe, he knew what Satan's role would be. He could have changed things to change that role. Or he could have chosen to NOT create Satan.)

So, you can assume that everyone's behavior is exactly as ordained and not one more person will be saved (no matter what YOUR efforts are) than Jehovah pre-ordained from the moment he put the universe together.

And the fact that according to Jehovah, MOST of humanity is gonig to hell, has gone to hell, and will go to hell is exactly the fate he chose for us (because he could have stepped in at any time to un-harden people's hearts (if you remember in the tale of the plagues and Pharoah letting the Israelites go, Jehovah steps in to HARDEN Pharoah's heart three times. Pharoah was going to let them go until Jehovah meddled.)

So Jehovah's concept of kindness is: create lots of people, drown all but six (and the animals, too!) and send them to hell (babies included. There's no "age of accountability" mentioned in the Bible), allow them to breed MORE people, most of whom he sends to hell.

...and then tell everyone what a great guy he is.


Creativity: I'm surprised that He's being challenged here to be MORE creative, because the big issue a lot of us people have is the fact that He's TOO creative. Even to the extent that He's hard to comprehend sometimes with miracles, prophecy, Jesus' whole story, omnipotency, demons, eternal life, Holy Spirit, angels, Satan, etc.

It's much easier to attribute them to "stories about a tribal god that were mostly made up. Makes a lot more sense that way.


Thank you Byrd. You got to it before I did.

I also want to say that I as I have already stated. I don't believe in the God of the bible or the Quran.
So telling me he is compassionate for not wiping me out for offending him is not an aurgument. Niether are any retorts concerning my relationship to that god. I don't have a relationship with what to me doesn't exist, except as a projection of man sparked by myth and a grab for power and control.

I don't believe,"If the Bible said it, one should believe it".

I think it a paradox that the Christian, Jewish and Muslim Reiligions should speak of peace and compassion, when the God of their own scriptures gives them a stacked deck and leads them into battle after battle, matyrdom after martyrdom. All this "historically" portrayed in those same pages.
And then in the last bit tells them to watch out for an Anti-christ that will act the same way he has, all these centuries.
Vain, egotistical, jealous, taking what he wants "for his people".
The anti-christ will come as a prince of peace, but will carry the sword of death...huh.
That sounds like the history of the organized christian religion to me.

Let's just agree to disagree. I don't want to challenge your faith. This is just my opinion.



posted on Apr, 8 2005 @ 09:58 PM
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It is a relief that someone would take the time to try to see another view rather than condem on face value .....two pips to you James ...I enjoyed and you have received my vote for a well thought out subject.....


But some areas do however draw me aback but I appreciate the fact you did this , it made for some interesting things I will enjoy looking into.






[edit on 8/4/2005 by drbryankkruta]



posted on Apr, 8 2005 @ 10:58 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Byrd
So, when he said "I think I'll make Earth" he knew that if he put down THIS particular pattern exactly how many people would be "saved" and so forth.


Ah, but that would negate the gift of free will, would it not? Why would God make a bunch of robots? Not a very interesting universe for even a human, let alone God.

Think a little further: If Jehovah sets up free will, then Jehovah cannot truly know the outcome of any one person's decisions.

If he can't know the outcome of everone's decisions then we have THIS set of problems:
* people could be born who could COMPLETELY undo everything Jehovah had planned.
* the actions of these people could negate one prophecy or thousands of prophecies
* Jehovah cannot be sure if even ONE person will make it to heaven.
* When the End Times comes around, Jehovah cannot be assured that the army and witnesses he is counting on will actually exist.
* Large parts of the Bible would be shown to be untrue as time proceeds.
* One small misstep in the plan can have huge consequences thousands of years later.

If you assume that the Bible is completely true, then we have no free will and Jehovah is punishing us for something that he knew would happen from the moment he decided to make the universe.


You're right, but what would be the point? The Garden is a teaching tool we use to grow, understand ourselves, and ultimately become better people because of it. It just goes to show us people don't like to work for rewards. We want it dropped into our laps because we're 'sooo deserving'. We deserve to be like gods, right? That was the first mistake we made and it's one we're still making.

I don't see that there's any "learning." Jehovah wanted the fruit taken (he could have NOT created the tree and put it in the garden and said "don't touch."

If he wanted humans with free will, he could have simply endowed humans with free will.

And take a look at the punishment... I have punished my own kids for actions that were wrong. But I'm not going to punish my grandbabies for things that my kids did, nor am I going to punish my great-grandbabies and so on and so forth.

I might tell them stories of my kids getting punished for something in order to teach them social lessons, but I'm not going to take my future generations out and beat the dickens out of them just because my own kids (their ancestors) did something. Cautionary tales are just as effective.

So Jehovah set up the failure. Therefore, he knew from the beginning how many would go to hell. He could have changed some small things to make sure no one went to hell -- but since he didn't, then he pre-ordained the number of people who are not saved.



Originally posted by Byrd
(because he could have stepped in at any time to un-harden people's hearts (if you remember in the tale of the plagues and Pharoah letting the Israelites go, Jehovah steps in to HARDEN Pharoah's heart three times. Pharoah was going to let them go until Jehovah meddled.)


The assumption here is that these things are happening without reason. From trial, tests of perseverance, comes growth. One needs to acquire wisdom to be mature and complete, not lacking anything.


The Israelites didn't gain that, if you'll remember. And Jehovah could have simply allowed the Pharoah to let them go instead of sending plagues that devastated Egypt. There were no lessons learned there -- there was only death for a lot of people, including the firsborn babies of the Egyptians.




Originally posted by Byrd
So Jehovah's concept of kindness is: create lots of people, drown all but six (and the animals, too!) and send them to hell


And, you've met all these people to verify they're in Hell? Yes they were killed, but I don't see where it says they're all in Hell. It sounds to me earth wasn't a great place to be at that time.


Well, for starters, there's Psalms 55
55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: (7:13-14)
7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it .
[Matthew says these are Jesus' words.]

John the Baptist says the same thing:
3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

And in Matthew and Luke, Jesus says whole cities are going to Hell (children and all) beause they didn't accept him and his disciples.

There's more citations but I think you can see the pattern here.



Originally posted by Byrd
(babies included.


Not babies - Luke 18:15.

Check the whole chapter; not just the verse. There's a crowd around him and they're keeping the little children away from him so they won't annoy him. He says "it's okay, let the kids come here."

He does NOT say, "babies of the world go into heaven if they die." This is never said in the Bible, and some very strict intrpretationists preach this, adding that while there ARE verses saying that the children of believers are sanctified by their parent (and presumably go to heaven if they die as babies), the verses that talk about non-Israelite children certainly don't talk about them going to heaven.

There's a lot of verses in the OT about killing children and Jehovah commanding that the little girls of the Amekelites be killed and burned as a sacrifice to him, and the sacrifice of the Jewish maiden (whose name escapes me) and so other human sacrifices.

...and you've got to ask yourself (as I did when I found those verses at age 12) what's with a deity that demands human sacrifice.



Originally posted by Byrd
It's much easier to attribute them to "stories about a tribal god that were mostly made up. Makes a lot more sense that way.


...disbelieve if you like, but you cannot affirm God according to the Bible is not creative

Actually, no offense meant, but I don't find him that creative. In fact, if a human father behaved in the same way, we'd lock him up for being a psycho and take his kids away.



posted on Apr, 10 2005 @ 04:39 PM
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Damn it, Byrd, you beat me to the punch!

That's what I don't get. Saint uses the punishment of kids as an analogy for our entire race being punished for things that Adam and Eve did. That is EXACTLY like beating down my kids, my grandkids, my great-grandkids, and so on for something my kids did. Doesn't make much sense to me.



posted on Apr, 11 2005 @ 11:01 AM
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I'll respond to the above, but I'd like to know why this thread was bumped first. I claim conspiracy. I claim conpirators. I give detail and connections and here we are in a forum to discuss 'what if' scenarios. There's no question here. People believe God has an attitude problem and I can link together who is involved and why there is a conspiracy against Him.



posted on Apr, 11 2005 @ 12:02 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd
If he can't know the outcome of everone's decisions then we have THIS set of problems:


This is a possibility (because all things are possible with God) so I'm not going to say absolutely this is the case. He may or may not know the outcome according to His choosing, but we'll look at the points if this is the case.


Originally posted by Byrd
* people could be born who could COMPLETELY undo everything Jehovah had planned.


Not if He can empower some people to do his work and/or utilize divine intervention as He has over and over again (Moses, Jonah, Isaiah, so on and so forth). Just has he empowers, he can 'un-empower' without affecting their decisioning.


Originally posted by Byrd
* the actions of these people could negate one prophecy or thousands of prophecies


Phophecy has yet to fail. Just because there's a plan doesn't mean He's going to micro-manage each of our lives.


Originally posted by Byrd
* Jehovah cannot be sure if even ONE person will make it to heaven.


Maybe he can, maybe he can't. All we know is He gave us a promise and the ability to accept or reject it.


Originally posted by Byrd
* When the End Times comes around, Jehovah cannot be assured that the army and witnesses he is counting on will actually exist.


He'll either make it happen or wait for it to happen. Maybe that's why it's taking so long for the end to come.


Originally posted by Byrd
* Large parts of the Bible would be shown to be untrue as time proceeds.


How so?


Originally posted by Byrd
* One small misstep in the plan can have huge consequences thousands of years later.


A company's C.E.O does not stand with his/her hands on his/her hips behind a phone representative to make sure they're doing their job. He guides the company as a whole. If he hears that representatives good name, then that's when they get the promotion. It's up to the representative to make their name known to the C.E.O.


Originally posted by Byrd
If you assume that the Bible is completely true, then we have no free will and Jehovah is punishing us for something that he knew would happen from the moment he decided to make the universe.


How do you figure? I have free will else God would not allow me to say this in His name. God has given us the opportunity to decide whether or not to accept Him or not. Our decision leads to being saved or damned.


Originally posted by Byrd
I don't see that there's any "learning." Jehovah wanted the fruit taken (he could have NOT created the tree and put it in the garden and said "don't touch."


I learned from it and I wasn't there. Adam and Eve learned from it and they were there. So who's not learning? People who refuse to see there's a lesson to be learned.


Originally posted by Byrd
If he wanted humans with free will, he could have simply endowed humans with free will.


He did.


Originally posted by Byrd
And take a look at the punishment... I have punished my own kids for actions that were wrong. But I'm not going to punish my grandbabies for things that my kids did, nor am I going to punish my great-grandbabies and so on and so forth.


If your grandbabies & great-grandbabies are guilty of the same thing then you should. You and I are guilty of the same thing Adam and Eve did. Going against God. Do you really think if you were there you'd make a different choice? If yes, let's talk more about your decisioning. I think we could find an example where God told you to do something and you went against Him.


Originally posted by Byrd
I might tell them stories of my kids getting punished for something in order to teach them social lessons, but I'm not going to take my future generations out and beat the dickens out of them just because my own kids (their ancestors) did something. Cautionary tales are just as effective.


According to the Old Testament. These 'cautionary tales' did not work. How many times did mankind go against God from Genesis to Malachi? Over and over and freekin' over again. I told my kid at age 5, "don't touch the pot, it's hot" being on the stove. What did she do? She heard me, but she touched the pot. She wailed and cried feeling a little burn on her finger. It did not matter what I SAID, she had to experience it to grow in the experience. So what we need to do is stop whining about the pain and grow up.


Originally posted by Byrd
So Jehovah set up the failure. Therefore, he knew from the beginning how many would go to hell. He could have changed some small things to make sure no one went to hell -- but since he didn't, then he pre-ordained the number of people who are not saved.


Did he? What verse is that? Perhaps He did, perhaps He did not.



The assumption here is that these things are happening without reason. From trial, tests of perseverance, comes growth. One needs to acquire wisdom to be mature and complete, not lacking anything.



Originally posted by Byrd
The Israelites didn't gain that, if you'll remember. And Jehovah could have simply allowed the Pharoah to let them go instead of sending plagues that devastated Egypt. There were no lessons learned there -- there was only death for a lot of people, including the firsborn babies of the Egyptians.


You were there to say no-one learned anything? I learned something and I wasn't there. I'd say a lot of Israelites got the hint that perhaps they should not provoke God. I'd say a lot of Egyptians learned the same.


Originally posted by Byrd
Well, for starters, there's Psalms 55
55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: (7:13-14)
7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it .
[Matthew says these are Jesus' words.]

John the Baptist says the same thing:
3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

And in Matthew and Luke, Jesus says whole cities are going to Hell (children and all) beause they didn't accept him and his disciples.


Okay, and what of the parable of goats and sheep? God sorts out who goes where. What about Revelation and all the preceeding books? God judges where people will go. You've done well to establish yes, people do in fact go to Hell, but there's book-loads of verses on determining how this works. I'd quote them but non-Christians sneer at me when I do.


Originally posted by Byrd
There's more citations but I think you can see the pattern here.


Likewise.


Originally posted by Byrd
He does NOT say, "babies of the world go into heaven if they die."


Nor did I.


Originally posted by Byrd
This is never said in the Bible, and some very strict intrpretationists preach this, adding that while there ARE verses saying that the children of believers are sanctified by their parent (and presumably go to heaven if they die as babies), the verses that talk about non-Israelite children certainly don't talk about them going to heaven.


??? I don't know where any of this is coming from. Jesus says let the children come to me. Looks like they'll have a choice as well. Jesus does say be like a child in your faith so it looks like they have one up on us in that regard. I didn't see any guarentee clauses for kids.


Originally posted by Byrd
There's a lot of verses in the OT about killing children and Jehovah commanding that the little girls of the Amekelites be killed and burned as a sacrifice to him, and the sacrifice of the Jewish maiden (whose name escapes me) and so other human sacrifices.

...and you've got to ask yourself (as I did when I found those verses at age 12) what's with a deity that demands human sacrifice.


I wish I were as well versed to be able to pick out where this is. If you have a book or verse, could you include? It'd save search time. Let's discuss.


Originally posted by Byrd
Actually, no offense meant, but I don't find him that creative. In fact, if a human father behaved in the same way, we'd lock him up for being a psycho and take his kids away.


If you have a better story, feel free to publish it and see if it becomes a 2,000+ year best-seller.

All the points you have here are very good. Some of which I'm working on myself. My hope is to show there is reason behind the actions, that they're not arbitrary and unfair.

Blessings be.

[edit on 11-4-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 03:06 PM
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If you have a better story, feel free to publish it and see if it becomes a 2,000+ year best-seller.


That is the funniest statement I've heard you come out with yet...

"Everyone else thinks it's cool, so I will too!"

Perhaps one day soon, he will come and tell you all the truth, since everyone lacks understanding to comprehend it themselves.



posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 03:21 PM
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Originally posted by dnero6911



If you have a better story, feel free to publish it and see if it becomes a 2,000+ year best-seller.


That is the funniest statement I've heard you come out with yet...


Thanks.



"Everyone else thinks it's cool, so I will too!"


It was meant to be a tounge-in-cheek thing since we're giving our opinions of what is and is not creative. I do try to throw some humour in now and then.



Originally posted by dnero6911
Perhaps one day soon, he will come and tell you all the truth, since everyone lacks understanding to comprehend it themselves.


I hope so. No-one is completely capabable of comprehending (alliteration 10 points!) which is why He is God and we're not.

I must say, some of the emotes are more fun here.

[edit on 12-4-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 02:17 PM
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I have said many times, that GOD simply eliminated those who persecuted his people or commicted faults against the Law.

Never did God wake up one day and decided to kill someone just for fun.

People that criticize the God of The Bible for killing, should check out Lcuidfer that demands ritual sacrifices, and Allah that demands DEATH to anyone who doesnt follow him...

Never did the God of The Bible demand such thing.

See the difference?





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