Conspiracy: God has an attitude problem., page 2

Originally posted by Byrd
If he can't know the outcome of everone's decisions then we have THIS set of problems:

This is a possibility (because all things are possible with God) so I'm not going to say absolutely this is the case. He may or may not know the outcome according to His choosing, but we'll look at the points if this is the case.

Originally posted by Byrd
* people could be born who could COMPLETELY undo everything Jehovah had planned.

Not if He can empower some people to do his work and/or utilize divine intervention as He has over and over again (Moses, Jonah, Isaiah, so on and so forth). Just has he empowers, he can 'un-empower' without affecting their decisioning.

Originally posted by Byrd
* the actions of these people could negate one prophecy or thousands of prophecies

Phophecy has yet to fail. Just because there's a plan doesn't mean He's going to micro-manage each of our lives.

Originally posted by Byrd
* Jehovah cannot be sure if even ONE person will make it to heaven.

Maybe he can, maybe he can't. All we know is He gave us a promise and the ability to accept or reject it.

Originally posted by Byrd
* When the End Times comes around, Jehovah cannot be assured that the army and witnesses he is counting on will actually exist.

He'll either make it happen or wait for it to happen. Maybe that's why it's taking so long for the end to come.

Originally posted by Byrd
* Large parts of the Bible would be shown to be untrue as time proceeds.

How so?

Originally posted by Byrd
* One small misstep in the plan can have huge consequences thousands of years later.

A company's C.E.O does not stand with his/her hands on his/her hips behind a phone representative to make sure they're doing their job. He guides the company as a whole. If he hears that representatives good name, then that's when they get the promotion. It's up to the representative to make their name known to the C.E.O.

Originally posted by Byrd
If you assume that the Bible is completely true, then we have no free will and Jehovah is punishing us for something that he knew would happen from the moment he decided to make the universe.

How do you figure? I have free will else God would not allow me to say this in His name. God has given us the opportunity to decide whether or not to accept Him or not. Our decision leads to being saved or damned.

Originally posted by Byrd
I don't see that there's any "learning." Jehovah wanted the fruit taken (he could have NOT created the tree and put it in the garden and said "don't touch."

I learned from it and I wasn't there. Adam and Eve learned from it and they were there. So who's not learning? People who refuse to see there's a lesson to be learned.

Originally posted by Byrd
If he wanted humans with free will, he could have simply endowed humans with free will.

He did.

Originally posted by Byrd
And take a look at the punishment... I have punished my own kids for actions that were wrong. But I'm not going to punish my grandbabies for things that my kids did, nor am I going to punish my great-grandbabies and so on and so forth.

If your grandbabies & great-grandbabies are guilty of the same thing then you should. You and I are guilty of the same thing Adam and Eve did. Going against God. Do you really think if you were there you'd make a different choice? If yes, let's talk more about your decisioning. I think we could find an example where God told you to do something and you went against Him.

Originally posted by Byrd
I might tell them stories of my kids getting punished for something in order to teach them social lessons, but I'm not going to take my future generations out and beat the dickens out of them just because my own kids (their ancestors) did something. Cautionary tales are just as effective.

According to the Old Testament. These 'cautionary tales' did not work. How many times did mankind go against God from Genesis to Malachi? Over and over and freekin' over again. I told my kid at age 5, "don't touch the pot, it's hot" being on the stove. What did she do? She heard me, but she touched the pot. She wailed and cried feeling a little burn on her finger. It did not matter what I SAID, she had to experience it to grow in the experience. So what we need to do is stop whining about the pain and grow up.

Originally posted by Byrd
So Jehovah set up the failure. Therefore, he knew from the beginning how many would go to hell. He could have changed some small things to make sure no one went to hell -- but since he didn't, then he pre-ordained the number of people who are not saved.

Did he? What verse is that? Perhaps He did, perhaps He did not.

The assumption here is that these things are happening without reason. From trial, tests of perseverance, comes growth. One needs to acquire wisdom to be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

Originally posted by Byrd
The Israelites didn't gain that, if you'll remember. And Jehovah could have simply allowed the Pharoah to let them go instead of sending plagues that devastated Egypt. There were no lessons learned there -- there was only death for a lot of people, including the firsborn babies of the Egyptians.

You were there to say no-one learned anything? I learned something and I wasn't there. I'd say a lot of Israelites got the hint that perhaps they should not provoke God. I'd say a lot of Egyptians learned the same.

Originally posted by Byrd
Well, for starters, there's Psalms 55
55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: (7:13-14)
7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it .
[Matthew says these are Jesus' words.]

John the Baptist says the same thing:
3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

And in Matthew and Luke, Jesus says whole cities are going to Hell (children and all) beause they didn't accept him and his disciples.

Okay, and what of the parable of goats and sheep? God sorts out who goes where. What about Revelation and all the preceeding books? God judges where people will go. You've done well to establish yes, people do in fact go to Hell, but there's book-loads of verses on determining how this works. I'd quote them but non-Christians sneer at me when I do.

Originally posted by Byrd
There's more citations but I think you can see the pattern here.

Likewise.

Originally posted by Byrd
He does NOT say, "babies of the world go into heaven if they die."

Nor did I.

Originally posted by Byrd
This is never said in the Bible, and some very strict intrpretationists preach this, adding that while there ARE verses saying that the children of believers are sanctified by their parent (and presumably go to heaven if they die as babies), the verses that talk about non-Israelite children certainly don't talk about them going to heaven.

??? I don't know where any of this is coming from. Jesus says let the children come to me. Looks like they'll have a choice as well. Jesus does say be like a child in your faith so it looks like they have one up on us in that regard. I didn't see any guarentee clauses for kids.

Originally posted by Byrd
There's a lot of verses in the OT about killing children and Jehovah commanding that the little girls of the Amekelites be killed and burned as a sacrifice to him, and the sacrifice of the Jewish maiden (whose name escapes me) and so other human sacrifices.

...and you've got to ask yourself (as I did when I found those verses at age 12) what's with a deity that demands human sacrifice.

I wish I were as well versed to be able to pick out where this is. If you have a book or verse, could you include? It'd save search time. Let's discuss.

Originally posted by Byrd
Actually, no offense meant, but I don't find him that creative. In fact, if a human father behaved in the same way, we'd lock him up for being a psycho and take his kids away.

If you have a better story, feel free to publish it and see if it becomes a 2,000+ year best-seller.

All the points you have here are very good. Some of which I'm working on myself. My hope is to show there is reason behind the actions, that they're not arbitrary and unfair.

Blessings be.

[edit on 11-4-2005 by saint4God]