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Originally posted by JamesBlonde
If there is any conspiracy involved with the whole god thing then it is a conspiracy gainst the suckers who fall for it. These folks have been bilked for so long that it isn't funny anymore and yet they still consider it a priveledge and will kill anyone who dares to think differently.
Originally posted by Curmudgeon
If we're all being punished with death because Adam and Eve disobeyed God, then why don't we have the option of submitting to God at some point in our lives and avoiding death? Obviously since we're born from sinners, we're born into sin, but why can't we bypass pain of death when we accept that God is the Savior or whatever it is that he desires from us?
Originally posted by ufo_believer
karma through reincarnation. ... we'll come back on this planet several
million times to make up for mistakes that we can't even remember" Seriously who'd WANT to live more than one life in this world when they REALLY think abut it
Originally posted by freddieb
I believe in the concept of a supreme being representing a supreme intellect, supreme conscienceness, and supreme compassion and creativity.
Originally posted by freddieb
I don't find alot of information on that God, around.
I don't believe in the God of the Old and New Testament...
This personality is not capable of the compassion and creativity needed to be a supreme anything. Just my two cents.
Originally posted by saint4God
Compassion: Despite wrong after wrong after wrong that people have committed against God, He's still willing to invite us to be with him. How many times do you have to wrong a person before they leave or shut you out? One? Two? Maybe Three if they're really forgiving, but God throughout the old testament was getting defied, accused, ignored, and hated. Yet, throughout it all He still demonstrated His love.
Creativity: I'm surprised that He's being challenged here to be MORE creative, because the big issue a lot of us people have is the fact that He's TOO creative. Even to the extent that He's hard to comprehend sometimes with miracles, prophecy, Jesus' whole story, omnipotency, demons, eternal life, Holy Spirit, angels, Satan, etc.
Originally posted by saint4God
Yet, throughout it all He still demonstrated His love.
Originally posted by Byrd
Did he?
Originally posted by Byrd
Let me point out that Jehovah is (according to the Bible) omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. This means he knows all, sees all, hears all, and creates all from the beginning of time to the end of time.
Originally posted by Byrd
So, when he said "I think I'll make Earth" he knew that if he put down THIS particular pattern exactly how many people would be "saved" and so forth.
Originally posted by Byrd
There are no surprises. He knows, in fact, if he decided to offer favor and kindness to followers exactly how it would impact them and the rest of the world.
Originally posted by Byrd
And since he's omnipotent, he could have created a paradise world where Satan wasn't allowed (remember, the moment he created the Universe, he knew what Satan's role would be. He could have changed things to change that role. Or he could have chosen to NOT create Satan.)
Originally posted by Byrd
So, you can assume that everyone's behavior is exactly as ordained and not one more person will be saved (no matter what YOUR efforts are) than Jehovah pre-ordained from the moment he put the universe together.
Originally posted by Byrd
And the fact that according to Jehovah, MOST of humanity is gonig to hell, has gone to hell, and will go to hell is exactly the fate he chose for us
Originally posted by Byrd
(because he could have stepped in at any time to un-harden people's hearts (if you remember in the tale of the plagues and Pharoah letting the Israelites go, Jehovah steps in to HARDEN Pharoah's heart three times. Pharoah was going to let them go until Jehovah meddled.)
Originally posted by Byrd
So Jehovah's concept of kindness is: create lots of people, drown all but six (and the animals, too!) and send them to hell
Originally posted by Byrd
(babies included.
Originally posted by Byrd
There's no "age of accountability" mentioned in the Bible), allow them to breed MORE people, most of whom he sends to hell.
Originally posted by Byrd
...and then tell everyone what a great guy he is.
Originally posted by Byrd
It's much easier to attribute them to "stories about a tribal god that were mostly made up. Makes a lot more sense that way.
Originally posted by Byrd
Originally posted by saint4God
Compassion: Despite wrong after wrong after wrong that people have committed against God, He's still willing to invite us to be with him. How many times do you have to wrong a person before they leave or shut you out? One? Two? Maybe Three if they're really forgiving, but God throughout the old testament was getting defied, accused, ignored, and hated. Yet, throughout it all He still demonstrated His love.
Did he?
Let me point out that Jehovah is (according to the Bible) omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. This means he knows all, sees all, hears all, and creates all from the beginning of time to the end of time.
So, when he said "I think I'll make Earth" he knew that if he put down THIS particular pattern exactly how many people would be "saved" and so forth. There are no surprises. He knows, in fact, if he decided to offer favor and kindness to followers exactly how it would impact them and the rest of the world.
And since he's omnipotent, he could have created a paradise world where Satan wasn't allowed (remember, the moment he created the Universe, he knew what Satan's role would be. He could have changed things to change that role. Or he could have chosen to NOT create Satan.)
So, you can assume that everyone's behavior is exactly as ordained and not one more person will be saved (no matter what YOUR efforts are) than Jehovah pre-ordained from the moment he put the universe together.
And the fact that according to Jehovah, MOST of humanity is gonig to hell, has gone to hell, and will go to hell is exactly the fate he chose for us (because he could have stepped in at any time to un-harden people's hearts (if you remember in the tale of the plagues and Pharoah letting the Israelites go, Jehovah steps in to HARDEN Pharoah's heart three times. Pharoah was going to let them go until Jehovah meddled.)
So Jehovah's concept of kindness is: create lots of people, drown all but six (and the animals, too!) and send them to hell (babies included. There's no "age of accountability" mentioned in the Bible), allow them to breed MORE people, most of whom he sends to hell.
...and then tell everyone what a great guy he is.
Creativity: I'm surprised that He's being challenged here to be MORE creative, because the big issue a lot of us people have is the fact that He's TOO creative. Even to the extent that He's hard to comprehend sometimes with miracles, prophecy, Jesus' whole story, omnipotency, demons, eternal life, Holy Spirit, angels, Satan, etc.
It's much easier to attribute them to "stories about a tribal god that were mostly made up. Makes a lot more sense that way.
Originally posted by saint4God
Originally posted by Byrd
So, when he said "I think I'll make Earth" he knew that if he put down THIS particular pattern exactly how many people would be "saved" and so forth.
Ah, but that would negate the gift of free will, would it not? Why would God make a bunch of robots? Not a very interesting universe for even a human, let alone God.
You're right, but what would be the point? The Garden is a teaching tool we use to grow, understand ourselves, and ultimately become better people because of it. It just goes to show us people don't like to work for rewards. We want it dropped into our laps because we're 'sooo deserving'. We deserve to be like gods, right? That was the first mistake we made and it's one we're still making.
Originally posted by Byrd
(because he could have stepped in at any time to un-harden people's hearts (if you remember in the tale of the plagues and Pharoah letting the Israelites go, Jehovah steps in to HARDEN Pharoah's heart three times. Pharoah was going to let them go until Jehovah meddled.)
The assumption here is that these things are happening without reason. From trial, tests of perseverance, comes growth. One needs to acquire wisdom to be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
Originally posted by Byrd
So Jehovah's concept of kindness is: create lots of people, drown all but six (and the animals, too!) and send them to hell
And, you've met all these people to verify they're in Hell? Yes they were killed, but I don't see where it says they're all in Hell. It sounds to me earth wasn't a great place to be at that time.
Originally posted by Byrd
(babies included.
Not babies - Luke 18:15.
Originally posted by Byrd
It's much easier to attribute them to "stories about a tribal god that were mostly made up. Makes a lot more sense that way.
...disbelieve if you like, but you cannot affirm God according to the Bible is not creative
Originally posted by Byrd
If he can't know the outcome of everone's decisions then we have THIS set of problems:
Originally posted by Byrd
* people could be born who could COMPLETELY undo everything Jehovah had planned.
Originally posted by Byrd
* the actions of these people could negate one prophecy or thousands of prophecies
Originally posted by Byrd
* Jehovah cannot be sure if even ONE person will make it to heaven.
Originally posted by Byrd
* When the End Times comes around, Jehovah cannot be assured that the army and witnesses he is counting on will actually exist.
Originally posted by Byrd
* Large parts of the Bible would be shown to be untrue as time proceeds.
Originally posted by Byrd
* One small misstep in the plan can have huge consequences thousands of years later.
Originally posted by Byrd
If you assume that the Bible is completely true, then we have no free will and Jehovah is punishing us for something that he knew would happen from the moment he decided to make the universe.
Originally posted by Byrd
I don't see that there's any "learning." Jehovah wanted the fruit taken (he could have NOT created the tree and put it in the garden and said "don't touch."
Originally posted by Byrd
If he wanted humans with free will, he could have simply endowed humans with free will.
Originally posted by Byrd
And take a look at the punishment... I have punished my own kids for actions that were wrong. But I'm not going to punish my grandbabies for things that my kids did, nor am I going to punish my great-grandbabies and so on and so forth.
Originally posted by Byrd
I might tell them stories of my kids getting punished for something in order to teach them social lessons, but I'm not going to take my future generations out and beat the dickens out of them just because my own kids (their ancestors) did something. Cautionary tales are just as effective.
Originally posted by Byrd
So Jehovah set up the failure. Therefore, he knew from the beginning how many would go to hell. He could have changed some small things to make sure no one went to hell -- but since he didn't, then he pre-ordained the number of people who are not saved.
The assumption here is that these things are happening without reason. From trial, tests of perseverance, comes growth. One needs to acquire wisdom to be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
Originally posted by Byrd
The Israelites didn't gain that, if you'll remember. And Jehovah could have simply allowed the Pharoah to let them go instead of sending plagues that devastated Egypt. There were no lessons learned there -- there was only death for a lot of people, including the firsborn babies of the Egyptians.
Originally posted by Byrd
Well, for starters, there's Psalms 55
55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: (7:13-14)
7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it .
[Matthew says these are Jesus' words.]
John the Baptist says the same thing:
3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
And in Matthew and Luke, Jesus says whole cities are going to Hell (children and all) beause they didn't accept him and his disciples.
Originally posted by Byrd
There's more citations but I think you can see the pattern here.
Originally posted by Byrd
He does NOT say, "babies of the world go into heaven if they die."
Originally posted by Byrd
This is never said in the Bible, and some very strict intrpretationists preach this, adding that while there ARE verses saying that the children of believers are sanctified by their parent (and presumably go to heaven if they die as babies), the verses that talk about non-Israelite children certainly don't talk about them going to heaven.
Originally posted by Byrd
There's a lot of verses in the OT about killing children and Jehovah commanding that the little girls of the Amekelites be killed and burned as a sacrifice to him, and the sacrifice of the Jewish maiden (whose name escapes me) and so other human sacrifices.
...and you've got to ask yourself (as I did when I found those verses at age 12) what's with a deity that demands human sacrifice.
Originally posted by Byrd
Actually, no offense meant, but I don't find him that creative. In fact, if a human father behaved in the same way, we'd lock him up for being a psycho and take his kids away.
If you have a better story, feel free to publish it and see if it becomes a 2,000+ year best-seller.
Originally posted by dnero6911
If you have a better story, feel free to publish it and see if it becomes a 2,000+ year best-seller.
That is the funniest statement I've heard you come out with yet...
"Everyone else thinks it's cool, so I will too!"
Originally posted by dnero6911
Perhaps one day soon, he will come and tell you all the truth, since everyone lacks understanding to comprehend it themselves.