Conspiracy: God has an attitude problem.

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posted on Mar, 23 2005 @ 12:18 PM
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Specifically what I'd like to see discussed is God as recorded in the Old Testament. It has been brought up that He's the angry, hateful-type towards humanity. What I'd like to submit to you is this conspiracy exists to wedge the gap between our Creator and people. Why? Because in separation between people and God in this life, there is separation in the after-life whereas evil wins.

Now, a few instances come to mind and I'm sure they'll come up, but let's start "In the beginning..." and work our way through. Adam and Eve. Since ponying up scripture is not popular, please pardon the poor paraphrase (




posted on Mar, 23 2005 @ 12:29 PM
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Ok maybe God isn't so bad after all. I've often wondered why he even puts up with our stupid species for so long.



posted on Mar, 23 2005 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by ufo_believer
Ok maybe God isn't so bad after all. I've often wondered why he even puts up with our stupid species for so long.


Wow! ( still chuckling about the "stupid species" comment
) I didn't think the discussion would make headway so early. I guess it goes shows that there are open-minded people here after all. Kudos to you!



Pray, train, study.
God bless.



[edit on 23-3-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Mar, 23 2005 @ 02:32 PM
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It's nothing wrong with our creator, is us humans that are at fault, in our haste to be like god we have given him the same charasteristics bad and good that we the human species have.



posted on Mar, 23 2005 @ 05:03 PM
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I think people honestly need to come and realize that christianity is NOT the worst religion on the planet. Sure it's not perfect and I've given it a fair amount of criticism, but all the other religions are by far worse. Like Islamists and they're suicide bombers. And Hindus who used to burn brides alive with their dead husbands. But all people see in that religion now is "ohhh a nice peaceful religion that teaches karma through reincarnation. Yay we'll come back on this planet several million times to make up for mistakes that we can't even remember
" Seriously who'd WANT to live more than one life in this world when they REALLY think abut it?

Once is enough for me.

And Islamists are incapable of keeping peace with Israel. Most people don't know this but it's basically the fault of the muslims for denying that Israel has the right to exist. Look at all the land those muslims own but the Jews can't even have their own small share? Not fair


Anyway that's only a couple of them but the world sure isn't doing particularly great in places where those beliefs dominate.



posted on Mar, 23 2005 @ 05:14 PM
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All I have to say is




Buddha
A dog is not considered a good dog because he is a good barker. A man is not considered a good man because he is a good talker.



posted on Mar, 23 2005 @ 07:29 PM
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God did punish Adam and Eve by kicking them out of the garden of Eden, but many scholars think that was actaully a good thing since then they could no longer eat fruit from the tree of life, thus would eventually die. Not to metion that God then allowed them to have kids, and eventually create a Savior in Jesus Christ.

Some punishments are Just, and God allways punishes fairly. Just like a good father punishes a son for doing something wrong. They do not do it to punish, butto correct behavior and to show that they care and love them.



posted on Mar, 23 2005 @ 08:33 PM
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.
Darn, if only humanity could have been good mindless little robots.

We made it so hard for Dictator God to have absolute discipline in his toy Universe.

Heil Gott!

Who else besides me doesn't really want some cantankerous dictator running their existences?
.



posted on Mar, 23 2005 @ 08:52 PM
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Originally posted by ufo_believer
Ok maybe God isn't so bad after all. I've often wondered why he even puts up with our stupid species for so long.


You know, having an inferiority comlex is considered having a mental disorder. Just wanted to remind you of that.



Also, since saint is trying to justify the murder of innocent people by his god...which simply never occured anyway. We could conclude that he wants to believe his god is a murdering peice of crap. After all, when he flooded the earth, I can guarantee that there were innocent children that never had the oppurtunity to sin. They perished according to the bible. They parished and went to hell, because jesus had not ressurected from the dead.

I love the attempts that people like you use to justify your horrifying belief system. Continue along the path that your pastor tells you to saint.

Now saint, tell me. Don't you believe that god knows everything past present and future? He created Adam an eve with this same knowledge correct? He created them with the knowedge of what they would do. He created hell with this knowledge, and lucifer for that matter. He created it all according to you, knowing everything he would have to do with what he created. Including damning people to hell. Yeah...what an upstanding guy. Sounds like your leader is no better than hitler or stalin to me. Actually, he is worse. He is the one who made hitler and stalin knowing what they would do even before they were concieved. Gotta love this guy.

A song comes to mind. It is buy a group called, A Perfect Circle. Here are the lyrics.

You're such an inspiration for the ways
That I'll never ever choose to be
Oh so many ways for me to show you
How the savior has abandoned you
F**k your God
Your Lord and your Christ
He did this
Took all you had and
Left you this way
Still you pray, you never stray
Never taste of the fruit
You never thought to question why

It's not like you killed someone
It's not like you drove a hateful spear into his side
Praise the one who left you
Broken down and paralyzed
He did it all for you
He did it all for you

Oh so many many ways for me to show you
How your dogma has abandoned you
Pray to your Christ, to your god
Never taste of the fruit
Never stray, never break
Never---choke on a lie
Even though he's the one who did this to you
You never thought to question why

Not like you killed someone
It's Not like you drove a spiteful spear into his side
Talk to Jesus Christ
As if he knows the reasons why
He did it all for you
Did it all for you
He did it all for you..

Awww, the truth can be so clear sometimes.



posted on Mar, 23 2005 @ 10:20 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit or would they would surely die. They knew at this point what would displease God, yet they CHOSE to disobey him. Now you parents out there should know, when teaching your child the difference between right and wrong, one needs to be "firm but fair". What kind of parent says, "What you did was wrong, but I'm going to go against what I said and not punish you"? Does the child learn a lesson or repeat the violation? I'll even submit that the child will continue to try to 'test the limits' of their ability to break the law in order to see what they can get away with. God was firm but fair.

No he wasn't. Women got punnished with excrutiating childbirth and bleeding profusely once a month.. men got the right to rule over womankind up until just recently and the right to blame her every time he f#cks up.. where is the fairness?

Eve "Well if I had to do things over.. "
Adam "It was worth it.. I'm happy as a pig in sh!t."




[edit on 24-3-2005 by riley]



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 02:35 AM
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Originally posted by ufo_believer
And Islamists are incapable of keeping peace with Israel. Most people don't know this but it's basically the fault of the muslims for denying that Israel has the right to exist. Look at all the land those muslims own but the Jews can't even have their own small share? Not fair


I have to disagree with you regarding the above comment. This is a short sighted comment from someone I assume doesn't look at history of the region. Maybe Israel is wrong for stealing the land in the first place, Islamists are definately wrong for killing Israelies, but don't blame this all on religion. Yes, religion has a part to play, but it is not the only cause. History is a powerful thing, and the reason we have so many conflicts in the world is because of what happened in the past. If only people could look to the future and forgive past mistakes, maybe we would grow as a human race.
Sorry for the slightly off topic tangent, but I had to disagree with the statement.

God gave us freedom of choice, and a consience, it is up to us to figure out how to use these to live according to God's laws. Yes we will screw up, but the main point is that we ask God for forgiveness, and if we really mean it, then God will always forgive and welcome us back to the family. We are supposed to learn from our mistakes and become better people. Unfortunately there are those that don't learn and continue to travel the wrong path.....like the conflict in the Middle East for example.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 08:46 AM
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I was wondering when resistance was going to arrive. Welcome.


Originally posted by Seapeople
You know, having an inferiority comlex is considered having a mental disorder. Just wanted to remind you of that.


Who has an inferiority complex? Might I remind you that egotism lead to a lot of bad things as well. You'd stated yourself that you were better than me, having a bigger brain, more intelligent, etc...


Originally posted by Seapeople
Also, since saint is trying to justify the murder of innocent people by his god...which simply never occured anyway. We could conclude that he wants to believe his god is a murdering peice of crap. After all, when he flooded the earth, I can guarantee that there were innocent children that never had the oppurtunity to sin.


LOL!
If you're a parent, I'd be very surprised to hear you say that. Anyway, we're subject to judgement when we don't go through saying we're sorry to God and accepting Him in all sincerity. God knows the hearts of the children, knew what he was doing, and his judgement is fair. Why do you think life here on earth surpasses the promise of heaven?


Originally posted by Seapeople
They perished according to the bible. They parished and went to hell, because jesus had not ressurected from the dead.


Let me guess. You were there and you witnessed all this? Keep making pot-shots in the dark and maybe you'll hit something? It's written out my friend, if you'd like me to send you my copy of the Book I will.


Originally posted by Seapeople
I love the attempts that people like you


People like me? What am I like? Hm. Methinks you do not know me.


Originally posted by Seapeople
use to justify your horrifying belief system. Continue along the path that your pastor tells you to saint.


I was 15 years a Christian on my own. Keep making assumptions, I'll be sure to point out which ones are right and which ones are wrong.


Originally posted by Seapeople
Now saint, tell me. Don't you believe that god knows everything past present and future? He created Adam an eve with this same knowledge correct? He created them with the knowedge of what they would do. He created hell with this knowledge, and lucifer for that matter. He created it all according to you, knowing everything he would have to do with what he created. Including damning people to hell. Yeah...what an upstanding guy.


In His creation was also the creation of free-will. We have the capability to CHOOSE to accept him or not. A marvelous freedom but not one without consequences. With this freedom is the responsibility to seek Him out.


Originally posted by Seapeople
Sounds like your leader is no better than hitler or stalin to me. Actually, he is worse. He is the one who made hitler and stalin knowing what they would do even before they were concieved. Gotta love this guy.


Oh yes, God creates automaton droids
! Are you a puppet? Are you just 'going through the motions'? If we all were, then we would be slaves. Clearly this not the case else all of us would be Christians or all of us would be non-Christians.


Originally posted by Seapeople
A song comes to mind. It is buy a group called, A Perfect Circle. Here are the lyrics.


Hehe, the leaders of truth are a mixed bag of entertainers chasing fame and fortune.



Originally posted by Seapeople
Awww, the truth can be so clear sometimes.


Agreed, which is why I'm wondering it's so elusive to some people.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 08:58 AM
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Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by saint4God
God was firm but fair.

No he wasn't. Women got punnished with excrutiating childbirth and bleeding profusely once a month.. men got the right to rule over womankind up until just recently and the right to blame her every time he f#cks up.. where is the fairness?

Eve "Well if I had to do things over.. "
Adam "It was worth it.. I'm happy as a pig in sh!t."


Women live longer, becoming stronger through these struggles. I could submit that men dying at a younger age, being denied growth experience, denied carrying the miracle of life, the first to die in wars, forced to labor all day in the searing sun, are therefore short-changed. Sexism and racism starts the same way. The grass is always greener on the other side, huh? Let's put envy aside for a moment. How about instead of complaining about our lives to generate anger, we take a step back and see how indeed we all have a boat-load of blessings. Despite our disobediene because of desire to be selfish, there is a God who still loves us and promises Heaven for listening to Him and recognizing that we do make mistakes. What do you think would be better - the Garden of Eden or Heaven?

[edit on 24-3-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 08:58 AM
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Not tyring to play the devil's advocate- but how well do any of you "know" your God according to ancient scriptures? As I have always boasted, the Bible, Old and New Testament, is nothing more than a BOOK. If you take a photo of it, the photo is not reduced to a ball of white light. You can buy it at a convenience store. It is a BOOK, written by MAN nonetheless. As much as I could say God is an umbrella, you would nto believe me. but if it said it in the Bible, you would. Double standard?



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by Scat
Not tyring to play the devil's advocate- but how well do any of you "know" your God according to ancient scriptures?


I talk to Him, He answers in various ways. He provides direction, sometimes to scripture, sometimes to realization or reason. If the answer is in the Book though, He tends to expect me to look for it first. For example, it mentions several times in scripture that He is the beginning and the end as the true God, unchanging in good.


Originally posted by Scat
As I have always boasted, the Bible, Old and New Testament, is nothing more than a BOOK. If you take a photo of it, the photo is not reduced to a ball of white light.


Hehe, that'd be weird. Would there be any doubters at that point? Would we have a choice but to belief in God because of the proof? Then we'd have no choice, no free-will, no growth experience.


Originally posted by Scat
You can buy it at a convenience store.


*drives along and stops at 7-11. "Let's see now...I've got chips, soda...may as well pick up a Bible while I'm here"
*


Originally posted by Scat
It is a BOOK, written by MAN nonetheless. As much as I could say God is an umbrella, you would nto believe me. but if it said it in the Bible, you would. Double standard?


I've gotten messages (even through other people) that made me nervous at first because I didn't know the source and could not verify right away. If you ask though, you get the answer. In fact, one such answer was to the tone of 'how much validation do you need?' because clearly it was the right. My experiences made me very skeptical and discerning sometimes even when unwarranted. One thing has been consistent though, He will not deny His promise, His son, nor His Word in the Book.


[edit on 24-3-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Women live longer, becoming stronger through these struggles.


You mean these punnishments don't you?

I could submit that men dying at a younger age, being denied growth experience, denied carrying the miracle of life,

On average they die younger.. then again I'll probably die of breast cancer when I'm fifty [runs in the family].. and not all women consider carrying life a wonderful experience. It just is something we can do.

the first to die in wars, forced to labor all day in the searing sun, are therefore short-changed.

Where in the bible does god give this sentence for eating the apple?

Sexism and racism starts the same way. The grass is always greener on the other side, huh?

Yeah okay.. how long have men had the vote? Does the bible not say that women are the property of men? How often do you hear of men being victims of domestic violence compared to women? Are men safer to go for a midnight stroll or are women? Do they earn the same? etc. etc. I could make the list longer but you could just take a look at our culture to get a better picture. Saying 'the grass is always greener' is a copout as it implies that discrimination is merely imagination and perception.

Let's put envy aside for a moment. How about instead of complaining about our lives to generate anger, we take a step back and see how indeed we all have a boat-load of blessings.

Again.. childbirth was meant to be a punnishment not a blessing.. I remember nothing in the bible where god says "Adam. For you sins Eve will outlive you and you will work outdoors and be forced to go to war against the people I haven't created yet." And envy?
I love being a woman.. but open the bible and it's begins with condemning females.. you cannot remain blind to the misoginry the bible has [and still] promotes.

You did not really address my points. How can god be considered fair when he didn't even hand out the first people he created equal punnishments?

[edit on 24-3-2005 by riley]



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by saint4God
Women live longer, becoming stronger through these struggles.


You mean these punnishments don't you?


No, I meant maturity. Nobody is a fan of me quoting the Bible, but this is totally applicable:

James 1:2 "Consider it a pure joy, my brothers, when you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perserverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God promised to those who love him."


Originally posted by riley

the first to die in wars, forced to labor all day in the searing sun, are therefore short-changed.

Where in the bible does god give this sentence for eating the apple?


Glad you asked! I hope that gives me permission to quote:

Genesis 3:17 "To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commaned you, 'You must not eat of it,'

Cursed is the ground because of you,
through painful toil you will eat of it
all of the days of your life.

It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
from dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Work until death!
Ouch...


Originally posted by riley
Back to scripture though - "Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living"


If that isn't a queen's title, I don't know what is.


Originally posted by riley
Yeah okay.. how long have men had the vote?


Vote? Where is that in the Bible? How is this God's fault?


Originally posted by riley
Does the bible not say that women are the property of men?


I don't know where this is. If anyone does, please share.


Originally posted by riley
How often do you hear of men being victims of domestic violence compared to women?


Again, a problem with God or us? What does God think about Adam and Eve as a couple? Did he command violence between them?


Originally posted by riley
Are men safer to go for a midnight stroll or are women?


Depends where you're strolling. If you're Lot's daughters in Sodom then you're perfectly safe. If your a male angel though, LOOKOUT!
I know some european females friends twice the size of some of my east asian male friends.


Originally posted by riley
Do they earn the same? etc. etc.


Pretty convenient to blame God for our free-will, I'll give you that.


Originally posted by riley
I could make the list longer but you could just take a look at our culture to get a better picture. Saying 'the grass is always greener' is a copout as it implies that discrimination is merely imagination and perception.


It is perception, but I wouldn't say imagination.


Originally posted by riley
Again.. childbirth was meant to be a punnishment not a blessing.. I remember nothing in the bible where god says "Adam. For you sins Eve will outlive you and you will work outdoors and be forced to go to war against the people I haven't created yet."


In addition to what I've included above, God commanded the men to go to war in the Old Testament. They had the strength from working the earth to fight apparently.


Originally posted by riley
And envy?
I love being a woman.. but open the bible and it's begins with condemning females..


It condemns both. God did not weed out the males in the flood. He didn't say "Men, get out of Sodom and Gomorrah before I blitz the place!" Proverbs talks about wisdom in the feminine form, something precious to be treasured. Why?


Originally posted by riley
you cannot remain blind to the misoginry the bible has [and still] promotes.


Maybe we can start with the present and work backwards then. What misogyny does the bible still promote?


Originally posted by riley
You did not really address my points. How can god be considered fair when he didn't even hand out the first people he created equal punnishments?


Sorry if I was unclear. In addition to the above, just because the punishments were not the same does not mean they were unequal. Man got his punishment, woman got hers. They're different because they need to compliment each other in order to survive as a successful couple. If they both had kids, it'd be really hard to take care of the basic human needs of each other. If they both worked until death, there'd be no time or way for successive generations.


[edit on 24-3-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 06:55 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Glad you asked! I hope that gives me permission to quote:

Genesis 3:17 "To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commaned you, 'You must not eat of it,'

Cursed is the ground because of you,
through painful toil you will eat of it
all of the days of your life.

It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
from dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Work until death!
Ouch...

1. If you are reffering to traditional gender roles.. women work just as hard working in the home and rearing kids.
2. That argument would be well and good if it were actually true. Machines work the land now.. and women are just as capable as farming as men.. and have always done so [oh and faught in wars]. Very few men work the land now.. and the ones I've met that do actually enjoy it.. ALL women on the other hand will have painful childbirth and menstrate. What.. Adam got a reprieve somewhere along the line? It sounds more like a suggestion than a punnishment and hardly comparable what eve was given. Childbirth is quite a natural thing.. and it would be impossible for it to be painless- so is menstration.. but the 'curse' was created to stigmatise and denograte women. I do not believe in the adam and eve myth- it just annoys me as it imposes false labels of 'inferior',sinful, weak, evil etc on women which has carried over into christian based cultures and is still influencing things. I also believe this discussion is futile as your bias towards the OT will keep you trying to white wash examples of your gods 'unfairness'.. even though you requested them.



posted on Mar, 27 2005 @ 03:03 PM
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Glad you asked! I hope that gives me permission to quote:

Genesis 3:17 "To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commaned you, 'You must not eat of it,'

Cursed is the ground because of you,
through painful toil you will eat of it
all of the days of your life.

It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
from dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Work until death!
Ouch...


Misconceptions .. and human Justification ..
The "gnostic" Jesus explains here...




"And our sister Sophia (is) she who came down in innocence in order to rectify her deficiency. Therefore she was called Life, which is the mother of the living, by the foreknowledge of the sovereignty of heaven. And through her they have tasted the perfect Knowledge. I appeared in the form of an eagle on the tree of knowledge , which is the Epinoia from the foreknowledge of the pure light, that I might teach them and awaken them out of the depth of sleep. For they were both in a fallen state, and they recognized their nakedness. The Epinoia appeared to them as a light; she awakened their thinking.

"And when Yaltabaoth noticed that they withdrew from him, he cursed his earth. He found the woman as she was preparing herself for her husband. He was lord over her, though he did not know the mystery which had come to pass through the holy decree. And they were afraid to blame him. And he showed his angels his ignorance which is in him. And he cast them out of paradise and he clothed them in gloomy darkness. And the chief archon saw the virgin who stood by Adam, and that the luminous Epinoia of life had appeared in her. And Yaltabaoth was full of ignorance. And when the foreknowledge of the All noticed (it), she sent some and they snatched life out of Eve.


[edit on 27/3/05 by dnero6911]

More text of interest




"I, therefore, the perfect Pronoia of the all, changed myself into my seed, for I existed first, going on every road. For I am the richness of the light; I am the remembrance of the pleroma.

"And I went into the realm of darkness and I endured till I entered the middle of the prison. And the foundations of chaos shook. And I hid myself from them because of their wickedness, and they did not recognize me.

"Again I returned for the second time, and I went about. I came forth from those who belong to the light, which is I, the remembrance of the Pronoia. I entered into the midst of darkness and the inside of Hades, since I was seeking (to accomplish) my task. And the foundations of chaos shook, that they might fall down upon those who are in chaos and might destroy them. And again I ran up to my root of light, lest they be destroyed before the time.

"Still for a third time I went - I am the light which exists in the light, I am the remembrance of the Pronoia - that I might enter into the midst of darkness and the inside of Hades. And I filled my face with the light of the completion of their aeon. And I entered into the midst of their prison, which is the prison of the body. And I said, 'He who hears, let him get up from the deep sleep.' And he wept and shed tears. Bitter tears he wiped from himself and he said, 'Who is it that calls my name, and from where has this hope come to me, while I am in the chains of the prison?' And I said, 'I am the Pronoia of the pure light; I am the thinking of the virginal Spirit, who raised you up to the honored place. Arise and remember that it is you who hearkened, and follow your root, which is I, the merciful one, and guard yourself against the angels of poverty and the demons of chaos and all those who ensnare you, and beware of the deep sleep and the enclosure of the inside of Hades.


[edit on 27/3/05 by dnero6911]



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by riley
1. If you are reffering to traditional gender roles.. women work just as hard working in the home and rearing kids.


This is exactly what I'm saying. There isn't one that's harder than another, they're both equal in challenge though the challenges are different. Married couples get into an argument about the other 'not carrying his/her own weight' because they cannot walk in the other's shoes. If they could for a day, this argument would never exist.


Originally posted by riley
but the 'curse' was created to stigmatise and denograte women. I do not believe in the adam and eve myth- it just annoys me as it imposes false labels of 'inferior',sinful, weak, evil etc on women which has carried over into christian based cultures and is still influencing things.


I recently walked into a room where someone asked my opinion about why I have the constant need to be busy. So I began to talk about how when I sat for long periods of time, I begin to feel lazy and useless. It was then that two people began to defend their position and justify everything they do. I wasn't talking about them, but they took offense because I think deep down they felt the same.

I do not see in the Bible nor Christian culture where women are inferior, more sinful, weak and evil than men. How many men do you know who would truly, gladly volunteer to 'have the baby' for their significant other? Not many. I'll tell you why. Because it's a difficult trial that takes fortitude, strength, will, and love to complete. When faced with such trials, we all wonder if we'll have enough. There is no greater love than suffering for another human life. The reward at the end, though not seen at the time, is unlike any other.


Originally posted by riley
I also believe this discussion is futile as your bias towards the OT will keep you trying to white wash examples of your gods 'unfairness'.. even though you requested them.


Just trying to help offer another paradigm. It's easy to blow the whistle, saying things are unfair because we don't get all the things we want.

[edit on 28-3-2005 by saint4God]





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