WAR: Baghdad Residents Thwart Attack and Kill Three Militants

Originally posted by CAConrad0825
The fundamental right to bear arms is to protect the people from a tyranical government that will infringe on their rights. Guns are misused yes, but so are bats and knives. Let's ban baseball and eating steak!

Inalienable right to bare arms? I respectfully disagree.

I never said inalienable.. I said fundamental. We have inalienable rights to life, liberty, and property according to John Locke. Also, in reference to your comments on gun vs. murder ratios you are very off. Canada has more hand guns per capita than the US and they have lower violent crime numbers. Heck if you watch "Bowling for Columbine" by Michael Moore, you see that in Windsor, Ontario, Canada, people who live within a stones throw of Detroit (one of the most crime ridden cities in America) people do not ever lock their doors.

Guns do not kill people, the person who pulls the trigger does. Guns can be used for good and for bad as with everything else in the world. The people of any nation should have the right to bear arms, so as to protect what is there. If you agree with gun control being stronger look at San Francisco: Recently, the city council debated whether to have a city-wide ban of Hand guns. Not to mention a violation of the 2nd Amendment, look on a map of California and look at what lies around San Fran. Crime city! How would you feel knowing that everyone around you has a gun and your local government won't let you own one?

Originally posted by CAConrad0825
I never said inalienable

Originally posted by Nygdan
Whats it matter? Human beings have a fundamental and inalienable right to have weapons, and this case illustrates exactly why.

I never said you did, I was commenting on Nygdans post.

Also I have to disagree with your assertion that there are more hand guns per capita in Canada than in the USA

There are roughly 1.2million hand guns in Canada (1998)
There are 32,507,874 Canadians
That means there is 1 hand gun for every 27 Canadians

There are roughly 76million hand guns in the USA (1998)
There are 293,027,571 Americans
That means there is 1 gun for every 3.8 Americans

Proof:Population figures
Gun ownership stats

Did you mean firearms in general? Lets see

There are roughly 7.4million guns in Canada (1998)
There are 32,507,874 Canadians
That means there is 1 gun for every 4.3 Canadians

There are roughly 222million guns in the USA (1998)
There are 293,027,571 Americans
That means there is 1 hand gun for every 1.3 Americans

Either way there is more hand guns per capita in the USA than in Canada. However you were right with regards to there being less crime in Canada.
14.5x more murders with guns in American than in Canada (per capita)
3.5x more robberies with guns in American than in Canada (per capita)

When will people learn that the proliferation of guns in a culture/countries is directly proportional to the deaths caused by these guns.

Obviously a local government banning of guns whilst the rest of the state, let alone the country, is armed to the teeth is a waste of time. Im not saying local government should take the initiative. Im not even saying America should ban weapons. The country is riddled with these legal/illegal weapons any way so any attempts to ban the weapons would take decades to see any benefit. Its too late for America, its other countries that I wish would ban firearms completely.

[edit on 26/3/05 by subz]

Why ban guns if someone else has them? How could you defend yourself? You have to defend yourself some how because believe me, negoitiations do not work. People have the fundamental right to own a gun. The man with the guns controls the world. Do people listen to a guy with a knife? Sometimes. Do people listen to a man with a gun? Of course.

Look at Ethiopia during the 1800's. It was the only country of Africa that could hold off European Colonization and why? Because it was able to gain arms. The Europeans knew that if they were armed the could overthrow them. That's why they did not arm them. In order to rid yourself of a dictator you need arms. And if you think that we will never have a dictator then you are a bloody fool who lives in a fantasy world.

Your mindset is so dated. Arm yourself to stop foreign invaders? You dont still think the Injuns are a commin' do you? Thats what the Army is for.

In soceity we have police and the rule of law. Robbery is not a capital crime but I do agree on the right to defend yourself. Why not a baseball bat? Why not get a tazer?

I put forth those ideas because if those weapons came into the hands of a criminal or mentally unstable person then police would have no problem subduing them.

If some one broke into my house and threatend the life of me or my family I wouldnt hesitate on killing them. However the odds of that situation occuring skyrocket BECAUSE of the availabilty of guns. If guns were not in the general population WE WOULDNT FACE GUNS IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Just have a look at the stats on firearms deaths.

Gun stats and Facts

Number of people killed by firearms every hour in America: 4

Im sorry but if you find that statistic acceptable then I have nothing further to add in a discussion with you.

I do not find my opinion dated nor the statistic true. Numbers can be changed to prove one side or another. I am also not speaking of foriegn invaders. You take the government for granted. What if they were to make a mistake *gasp* overstep their authority? I know that that would never happen in America, the land of gum drops and sugar plums, what if?

Guns are misused, so ban guns? That's like people ODing on Tylenol so let's make it a prescription drug. America is based on the rights of the people to make their own decisions. Personal responsibilty, my friend, is the key to a successful nation. Look at the Iraqis. They want to have freedom and are now fighting back against the insurgents. They are taking responsibilty for their nation.

Another point to think about with the Iraqis. Do you think that they were allowed to own guns when Saddam was in power? Of course not, why would they? They could overthrow the government then. There will never be a time when people will totally disarm because someone will get their hands on them and take over.

Every argument you have made is only about how many people die because of the Misuse of guns, not that guns are dangerous in themselves. Guns do not fire themselves. When used responsibly guns are safe. Cars are safe when used properly. But people have mistakes or they are sociopathic. Heck, look at Germany. They have extremely strong gun control, but oh wait what is this? Sociopaths strike out against society in other ways. They drive down the wrong side of the Audobahn and kill people that way. There is no comparison casualty wise, and yes many people die because of handguns. However, look back to 1930's Germany. Hitler used sweeping gun control laws to disarm the entire population. How many people died because of gun control then?



Over 61 Million

I have a final word that will solve our entire argument:

If Guns are responsible for people's deaths, then cars are the cause of drunk driving and spoons are the cause of Rosie O'Donnel being fat.

Also, you ignored a large statistic. The fact that crime takes place with guns does not mean that guns cause crime. In fact, most guns used in crimes are not even legal. There are gun runners who bypass gun control. Those who do register their guns and follow the rules are less likely to commit violent crimes than those who steal their guns. The problem is not with guns being out there but the fact that gun control cannot stop the illegal gun trade.

[edit on 27-3-2005 by CAConrad0825]