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Why are victim-less crimes illegal?

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posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 07:04 PM
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Two that come to mind are:

Prostitution

and

Soft Drugs (Marijuana)

There has been much discussion that seems to indicate that by passing
laws to disallow such things the net effect is that it only forces the activity
underground.

So what is the motivation of society to create crime by passing laws against
activity that will happen regardless of the laws on the books?




posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 07:09 PM
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See George Carlin, he says the same thing. Has for over 30 years.

I believe you both are right.

Amsterdam agrees.



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 07:21 PM
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Originally posted by TruthCanHurt
Two that come to mind are:

Prostitution

and

Soft Drugs (Marijuana)



I have to agree, although a lot of crime stems from the involvment of these to matter, if they were legal then prostitutes would be safer from pimps and dangers on the streets and diseases as safer envirnments can be created as there will be a legal market for it. Make cannabis legal and you take away the necessity of the dealers and much of the crime surrounding dealers such as gang land drug wars. If this was able to be produced legally, the government itself could do well by it by imposing a revenue tax ob sales of this product, jobs in manufacture and growth and help to MS suffers and even for recreaction.

To be honest, the reason I believe cannabis is illegal is that anyone could if they wanted to produce it at low cost and therefore would not purchase it if cannabis was legal. By it being illegal much is being exchanged and therefore enabling the economy to flow.



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 08:21 PM
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truthcanhurt
It has to do mainly with two factors, the reliance that America has on prison labor (both the inmates working to produce goods and the guards, lawyers, police, etc.), and the fact that it's easier to control a population if you deem them criminals.

When Rome wanted to control the Christians, it made them criminals.

When America wanted to lock up blacks and hispanics for simply being who they were, they needed a good excuse, and Marijuana provided it. Not to mention the sulfur industry, the textiles industry, the plastics industry, Big Pharma, and a host of other related industries needed hemp illegal to inflate their profits and make their dirty and dangerous products the only legal solution.

It all boils down to money and control (power), doesn't it always?



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 08:58 PM
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Prostitution and drug use are illegal for the same reason that suicide is. We are considered property of the government, therefore we are not allowed to engage in behaviour that they deem to be detrimental to our well being.
Prostitution contributes to the spread of STD's and "immoral behaviour"; drug use and suicide, obviously, can cause physical damage to the body and alters perceptions of reality.
That's why, if I beat up Joe Blow, my trial would not be Joe Blow vs. Jade xxxxx, but rather The State of California vs. Jade xxxxx. When I beat up Joe, I committed a crime against the state's property, so they are the ones pressing charges. Joe could sue me for monetary compensation in a civil trial, but that's all.

Prostitution, and drug use, however are also illegal because the government makes a lot more money by keeping it illegal, and raking in fines, taxes levied for "the War on Drugs" and lobbyist contributions. They'd go broke if these activities were legal and the only money they brought in was from usage/regulation taxes.

The irony of the whole thing, is that the crime that stems from prostitution and addictions are direct results of the "War on Drugs" and similar attempts at restricting individual freedoms.
Any parent of a teenager knows that the best way to make teens want to rebel and enage in risky behaviour, is to keep them locked in a fishbowl so they won't hurt themselves.

The prohibition is a prime example of the conection between crime and drugs. Before prohibition there were no major organized crime rings, because there wasn't much money to be made in the legal booze market.
As soon as it became illegal and the demand opened up the opportunity to capitalize on the limited supply of alcohol, oranized crime was born. When the Prohibition amendment was repealed, and the government started regulating booze again, the profit that was being made from bootlegging liquor on the black market, flew right out the window. The crime rings then had to branch out into other areas of the black market, so many of them turned to gambling and racketeering, then drugs and prostitutes.

Without the black market, dealers and crime rings would no longer be a problem.



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 10:28 PM
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Two of the posters got it correct - the things that come along with prostitution and drugs are bad for society. Prostitution will increase the rate of STDs, and drug users suffer health consequences (whether endangering themselves or others) so pretty much prostitution and drugs increase insurance costs for everyone, not just those that participate in them. Maybe if we can charge stoners extra for insurance for smoking pot like the do cigarette smokers, but then you still have the added problem of people doing stupid things that can potentially harm others whilst high (and alcohol similarly.) The increase in insurance costs is a main problem - that's the reason for seat-belt and motorcycle helmet laws too.



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 10:45 PM
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Originally posted by jezebel We are considered property of the government,

Where the hell did you get that idea?

You ever read a civil suit? It's "Person 1 versus Person 2", not "The state Versus Person 2". Your examples may also be titled "The People versus Person X". And did you forget about the little thing called a Jury, who decides if a person is innocent or guilty?



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 10:47 PM
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Why are victim-less crimes illegal?

They are a HUGE source of profit for the Government through fines and confiscations.

That and they give them almost unlimited power to pry into our privite lives.

Those are the only two reasons I can think of.



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 03:46 AM
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Maybe you need to ask yourself if there is such a thing as a TRUELY victimless crime. By legal definition, a crime has an Actor (The bad guy) and a Subject (The victim). Yes, the two can be the same.

Interesting that you ONLY mention Prostitution and "mild" drugs. But what about Suicide? Death by Heroin? Indeed, Death by Drinking! How about Driving Drunk? Hey, YOU DROVE TO THE BAR TO DRINK...BUT YA CAN'T DRIVE HOME?? So what if you slam into a streetlight...odds are, you'd probably be alone in the car. Who's the victim? As I said, YOU WANTED TO DRINK AND DRIVE.

Work on it and I'm sure you can find countless examples of "victimless" crimes that most of us praise our legislators for.



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by Klepto
To be honest, the reason I believe cannabis is illegal is that anyone could if they wanted to produce it at low cost and therefore would not purchase it if cannabis was legal. By it being illegal much is being exchanged and therefore enabling the economy to flow.


I agree and believe that the main motivation the government has to keep
cannabis illegal is greed. Ever wonder what happens to the millions of
dollars IN CASH the government takes from the drug dealers each year.
There seems to be no real accountability of this money. Not to mention
all the property (cars, houses, land, yachts, ...) they seize and sell at
auction. The main problem with this current scenario is that the crime
itself is feeding the governments greed.

Wouldn't it be better to legalize and tax cannabis? The government would
still make its money from the trade. The crime related to this trade, however,
would be gone. The benefit to society would be significant, especially if they
used the tax dollars they collect to pay for substance abuse programs,
supplement education programs (real education, not the propaganda they
currently "educate" us with that most everyone knows is BS).

Legalizing would get rid of 25-50 million "criminals" in the United States.
The courts would then be freed up to deal with serious crime.



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 06:42 PM
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Originally posted by jezebel
Prostitution and drug use are illegal for the same reason that suicide is. We are considered property of the government, therefore we are not allowed to engage in behavior that they deem to be detrimental to our well being.


I think you are only the property of the government if you're in the military.
There are many activities that are deemed detrimental to our well being
that are not illegal. (drinking, eating to much, smoking, not exercising,
watching too much TV, ...) The list of such things is a very long one.

We cannot and should not expect the government to protect us from ourselves.


Originally posted by jezebel
Prostitution contributes to the spread of STD's and "immoral behavior";


Legalized prostitution would reduce the spread of STD's resulting from
prostitution. If it is a legitimate profession (like it is now is some countries)
the workers will have access to training (safe sex) and health care.
Again, once legalized the crime associated with prostitution would go
away.

"Immoral behavior" is subjective in this case. You may feel that prostitution
is immoral but many people feel that it is not. Living in a free country you
should be able to decide for yourself and act accordingly.


Originally posted by jezebel
Prostitution, and drug use, however are also illegal because the government makes a lot more money by keeping it illegal, and raking in fines, taxes levied for "the War on Drugs" and lobbyist contributions.


And this practice is immoral wouldn't you say?


Originally posted by jezebel
They'd go broke if these activities were legal and the only money they brought in was from usage/regulation taxes.


Perhaps they would make more money. They would get tax revenue
which could be significantly more than they're making now.

The United States has more people incarcerated as a percentage of
the population than any other country in the world. Perhaps if we can
get the people out of prison that are not really harming society we will
have more room for the people that really are.



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by Toelint
Maybe you need to ask yourself if there is such a thing as a TRUELY victimless crime. By legal definition, a crime has an Actor (The bad guy) and a Subject (The victim). Yes, the two can be the same.


Okay, I've asked myself that question and the answer is YES! There truly
are victimless crimes. A crime is simply doing something that is illegal.
If that same activity is not illegal then PRESTO! it is no longer a crime.


Originally posted by Toelint
Interesting that you ONLY mention Prostitution and "mild" drugs. But what about Suicide? Death by Heroin? Indeed, Death by Drinking! How about Driving Drunk? Hey, YOU DROVE TO THE BAR TO DRINK...BUT YA CAN'T DRIVE HOME?? So what if you slam into a streetlight...odds are, you'd probably be alone in the car. Who's the victim? As I said, YOU WANTED TO DRINK AND DRIVE.


This tactic is the most often used by people wanting to avoid the issue. You
avoid addressing the issues I've mentioned and instead want to discuss
something else in an attempt to lump everything together. Never did
I advocate making EVERYTHING legal. By attempting to change the subject
you are all but admitting the injustice currently in place for the issues at hand.



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 07:55 PM
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Don't forget that it is legal in nye county NEVADA to have and run a brothel. As far as I know they don't have a higher rate of std's and it is more safe for everyone that way. I would never go to one myself because I just think it is disgusting but to each there own. If it can be legal and safer for everyone I am all for it.



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by Toelint
Death by Drinking! How about Driving Drunk? Hey, YOU DROVE TO THE BAR TO DRINK...BUT YA CAN'T DRIVE HOME?? So what if you slam into a streetlight...odds are, you'd probably be alone in the car. Who's the victim? As I said, YOU WANTED TO DRINK AND DRIVE.

.


Hmm. That is far from a victimless crime. You hit a streetlight and you:

1.Block up Traffic
2.Risked hitting other people
3.The state has to move/replace that streetlight.
4.The car has to be towed
5.Medical units have to brought on scene (taking away from other people that might also need care)

Bad example in my opinion. But i am all for legalizing prostitution . But it would be like it is for porn stars. They all have to take test to make sure they are without std's and any other junk. Becoming a prostitute would be an application process and could only operate in brothels. This would ensure safety.

I am for legalizing drugs to. People who are drunk are just as high a risk as doing something dum and injuring other people as people who are high will. The government will be able to have it controlled and huge crime rings will be depraved.

As for drugs being harmful to the user i say i don't care. People can do what they want to THIER bodies. Assuming it doesn't hurt others. IF they lower thier life expectancy i am for that too. Thier is a huge population problem in the world. Many of us do need to die off.

Another reason the government wouldn't legalize the stuff is because no politician is willing to vote for that. It could destroy your career. Many people would be against legalizing this stuff purely because they are ignorant and that this society says it is bad.



posted on Mar, 23 2005 @ 12:42 AM
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It is a proven point that Cannabis, Heroin, Cocaine, '___', MDMA, whatever cause health problems. The relation to whether or not they are as bad or worse than alcohol and cigarettes is immaterial (though I love a few beers and a couple cigs every now and then, I would not be against there being sanctions against smokers and drinkers) because the danger is there. And, like I hinted to before, every drug related medical expense affects EVERYONE. Some guy overdoses on heroin - A)He has insurance, good for him. Now my insurance rates are going to go up to fund expenses related to his OD. B)He doesn't have insurance - that jackass, it's my tax money going to pay for his abuses.

As far as prostitution, as a conservative I disapprove on it for myself and as a societal entity... however, it does make sense if it does not have an effect on STD rates (I believe prostitutes in the Netherlands get tested once and month, and all the legal ones must wear condoms.) I'm not certain it doesn't affect STD rates, but otherwise, I regret to say it makes sense.



posted on Mar, 23 2005 @ 05:41 AM
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Originally posted by AlphaHumana
...Some guy overdoses on heroin - A)He has insurance, good for him. Now my insurance rates are going to go up to fund expenses related to his OD. B)He doesn't have insurance - that jackass, it's my tax money going to pay for his abuses.


You could make the same argument for someone that eats too much. That
person then develops diabetes and heart troubles. They then need lots
of medical attention and effect insurance rates. This scenario is 1000 times
more common than the one you describe and has a much more significant
effect on your insurance/tax rates.

The only real solution is to treat ALL people as human beings and deserving
of medical attention when they need it. If our tax money paid for self-help
programs for people with self-abuse problems (whether it be drugs or
eating disorders) then we're putting the money where it makes the most
sense by attempting to head off problems before they become serious ones.



posted on Mar, 23 2005 @ 08:32 AM
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Driving while intoxicated is NOT a victimless crime. It can be, but the risk is high of injuring someone else because of your stupidity, and that's unacceptable in a sane society.

If you hurt yourself, no one should care but you. You should NOT be considered property of the government unless you serve in the Armed Services, and therefor suicide should be legal, along with drug abuse and prositution. It's simple really, if the 'crime' does not involve damages, it has no place in the law books.

There are too many superfluous and irrational laws on the books, the legal system is like a forest overtaken by creeper vines. Somebody needs to go in with a logic machete and cut all the crap down.

Same with tax code.



posted on Mar, 23 2005 @ 08:43 AM
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Originally posted by AlphaHumana
It is a proven point that Cannabis, Heroin, Cocaine, '___', MDMA, whatever cause health problems.



I think you'll find that of you look at the research pure MDMA causes no health problems. The problem comes when it's mixed with other things like speed and ketamine and put in to pills.

[edit on 23-3-2005 by Burgess]



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 09:20 AM
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Prostitution: Can you honestly tell me that prostitutes have no problem with their lifestyle? It destroys their lives. That's reason enough for it to be illegal in my opinion.

Soft drugs / Marijuana: Assuming it's harmless, if it was made legal then there would be no progress because everyone would be stoned all the time. If its harmful (e.g. carcinogens) then it's obvious why it should be illegal.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 09:55 AM
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Even if something is harmful to a person why does that automatically make it illegal? Dont I as a individual have all the right in the world to harm myself if I choose so?



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