Authority of the Bible - Tradition or Scripture?

The ancient church fathers taught the following: the New Testament (NT) is the final authority for Christians. They also said anyone requiring one to believe a doctrine that is NOT clearly taught in Scripture should be ignored. There have never been any secret doctrines handed down by the apostles. If any doctrine is vague or DEBATABLE, it is NOT important for salvation.

So what's the big deal? Apostolic Succession is the problem. Apostolic succession is something that was extremely important in the first century but has been lost in time. During the first century when someone started his church and taught some strange new doctrine, all one had to do was ask Peter, Paul, or John (one of the Apostles) if this new teaching was correct and if they said yes then you knew the teaching was sound and correct. If they said No, that is not correct then you knew this new church was a cult and the new teaching was a lie from Satan. Jesus (greek translation for his real name, Yeshua) and his disciples taught all through the NT that false teachers and false prophets would rise up from WITHIN the church and believers needed to be on guard.

After the death of the last Apostle (John), the same situation applied to any of the eyewitnesses of the disciples. A great example is Irenaeus, who sternly corrected (correcting one is NOT judgement) the bishop of ROME (WHAT MOST CALL THE POPE) for heresy, stating that he, (Irenaeus), was an eyewitness of Apostle John and Polycarp. He basically said if they were alive in his time, the bishop of Rome, Pope Victor and Florinus would have been instantly excommunicated! Irenaeus knew this because he witnessed this very thing several times when younger.

After the first few generations, we had clear instructions from the NT and from ancient church fathers. Apostolic Succession of a non-eyewitnessis a very dangerous thing. Since we were warned of false teachers rising up from WITHIN the church, we should expect them and judge all modern authorities by the bible, as interpreted by the eye witness of the disciple. If any modern denomination uses "Apostolic Succession as a means of authority, they are deliberately disregarding the ancient authorities themselves, and by the authority of those ancient fathers...... they are to be ignored!

When witnessing to a Roman Catholic, Christian cult/sect or Eastern Orthodox believer, the question of authority usually arises. They argue that the Pope can trace HIS apostolic authority all the way back to the Apostle Peter. So why would a Roman Catholic want to choose your opinion of what a Scripture means over the Pope's opinion? If you say "because the Bible says so," the Roman Catholic interpets that as, "I have no authority and cannot prove it......it's just my own opinion. BUT if you say, "I have it on the authority of the first century bishops (the seventy elders) and popes", it will make him (that lost sheep) to stop and think.

NOTE: The seventy people who Jesus laid hands on gave HIS authority to heal, exorcise and preach the good news; later became bishops of the first century church.

We know that there were no popes in the first century, BUT Roman Catholics consider the bishops of Rome, Pope. So when you say, a first century pope said.... and then quote a first century Bishop of Rome, that is simply try to speak Roman Catholic language! The point is this: even if a pope has the authority to change practices, like saying homosexuals is no longer a sin, he still cannot make a declaration and change HISTORY, so if a first century Bishop of Rome (Pope for this purpose) said Mary, the mother of Jesus died and was buried in Ephesus, Turkey, then a recent pope declared the dogma of the "Assumption of Mary" which states Mary never dies but ascended into heaven, that means one pope is correct and the another one is a liar. There is no way that Mary could have died and not died at the same time!!

So the question is this: Are you going to obey the authority of an ancient bishop of Rome (like Linus) who was a witness to the apostles (and trained by the Apostles) who was also a witness to the apostles or the modern pope who has changed doctrine that he was forbidden to change? Like when the Pope changed the date of the resurrection AND Christ birth being 25 Dec..... Here you can clearly see the evil done by RMC and Protestant churches....keeping its sheep lost and under control of Satan.

When you discover the first century Bishops of Rome also wrote that any future presbyter, bishop or pope who changes specific doctrines should be banished and not heard, YOU must make a decision. Of course this also applies to Protestant churches who twist the teachngs of the ancient church fathers..... one example...... changing the resurrection of Christ to one week later ... to align with the pagan festival called Easter or celebrate Christ birth on the pagan holiday of 25 December.

Irenaeus 178 AD - Against Heresies 3.2
Heretics allege truth was delivered not by written documents but by oral tradition. Without this oral tradition you cannot properly interpet the Scriptures.

Against Heresies 3.3
The Apostles did not pass down any hidden wisdom, just the Scriptures. If an older written document contradicts the newer written document, we believe the older document.

Against Heresies 4.26
Obey the presbyters who are in the church, thos who possess the succession from the Apostles - together with the succession of Episcopate, who have received the certain gifts of truth. But it is also incumbent to hold in SUSPICION others who deparz from the primitive succession. Avoid all who do not hold to the doctrine of the Apostles, including Presbyters.

Against Heresies 4.33
The doctrine of the Apostles has been guarded as a very complete system of doctrine and has been preserved without any forgingof Scriptures. Neither receive addition to, nor suffer curtailments from its truths. Read the word of God without falsification, lawfully and diligently explaining the OT in harmony with the NT.

Clement of Alexandria - 192-202 AD
Stromata 7.15
Accept no doctrine that is not CLEARLY taught in the Scriptures. It must be proven logically and completely from the Scriptures or it is just an opinion. Anyone who divides the body of Christ with opinions is sinning against the body of Christ.

Tertullian 190-210 AD
Prescriptions against Heretics 1.25
The Apostles did not keep any secret doctrine, but taught every doctrine openly. Only heretics teach a secret gospel, letter or doctrine. (The NAG HAMMADI SCRIPTURES are heretical and unauthorized teachings .... also known as the gnostic scriptures.)

Jesus said the gospil would be taught across the whole world as a witness.

The one that has been is all we should use IMO. All things are checked against those books.

Mark 7:1-9
This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.


Colossians 2:8
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

1 Peter 1:17-19
And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.


Deuteronomy 12:29-32
"When the LORD your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, "How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise." You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

Mark 7:11-13
But you say, 'If a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban"' (that is, a gift to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.'


Matthew 15:1-9
Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 'Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.' He answered and said to them, 'Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, 'Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God" then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
" These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
Andhonor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.""


Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Revelation 22:18-19
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

and on and on

The one that has been is all we should use IMO. All things are checked against those books.

Those books? You mean the books of the NT?

Which bible?

Which belief system RMC, Protestant, or cult/sect?

This is why the ancient church fathers and Apostles wrote often to one another due to heretics gaining ground within the church.

originally posted by: SeaWorthy
Jesus said the gospil would be taught across the whole world as a witness.

The one that has been is all we should use IMO. All things are checked against those books.

Mark 7:1-9
This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.


Colossians 2:8
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

1 Peter 1:17-19
And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.


Deuteronomy 12:29-32
"When the LORD your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, "How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise." You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

Mark 7:11-13
But you say, 'If a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban"' (that is, a gift to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.'


Matthew 15:1-9
Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 'Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.' He answered and said to them, 'Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, 'Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God" then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
" These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
Andhonor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.""


Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Revelation 22:18-19
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

and on and on

edit on 5-4-2021 by DeathSlayer because: (no reason given)

Not one authority in the entire world today has the blessing of any divine, supernatural or otherwise cosmic agency.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Those books? You mean the books of the NT?

You can't separate the old and new as Jesus regularly taught from the old and he is the new.

Which bible?

Any that includes the old and new testaments The common bible that has spread across the world.

Which belief system RMC, Protestant, or cult/sect?

None, I don't see any organization true to the bible teaching as I have spent a lifetime looking.

This is why the ancient church fathers and Apostles wrote often to one another due to heretics gaining ground within the church.

I am confused by this I thought we were actually in agreement I must have misread your thread.
There is no teaching if you can accept whatever people decide is tradition by word of mouth.

Pope means Papa which is a very informal loving way of saying the more formal father. The word papa can be one of the first words a baby learns. Some think that is why the word means father, because it is such an easy word to pronounce, and thus an early word in a child's vocabulary, along with mom and dad.

The point? Jesus said not to call anyone on earth "father," for only one is your Father, the heavenly one. That is Matthew 23:9.

Some will argue: then you can't call your dad 'father'. I have had that argument given to me. But it is obvious what Jesus is referring to here, for he was talking about the religious leaders wanting to lord it over the people back in his days. That very statement, if you look at the context, had to do with the scribes and Pharisees, religious leaders of the Jews. He also said they liked to have the most prominent places, and to be called "Rabbi" by men. So he wasn't referring to calling your dad father. He was referring to calling other humans your "Father" as in spiritual leader.

That doesn't mean you can't have a spiritual father that teaches you the truth. I have had that argument given to me before as well. Where Paul called himself the "spiritual father" of those whom he taught the truth in the Corinthian congregation. (1 Corinthians 4:15.)

Paul was not trying to say he was their leader. For even he himself said there were divisions or sects already being formed in the Christian congregation people saying they belonged to this one or that one ( some to Paul, others to Apollos). And he corrected them stating that one plants the seed of truth, another waters it, but it is God who makes it grow. So God is the Father of all. There is no leader, or anyone better. -1 Corinthians 3:5-9.

The title Pope goes against everything Jesus stood for, indeed his very own words in the Bible.

" Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ."-Matthew 23:9, 10.


----

Bonus information. The titles bishop and deacon and such were not used as titles in the Bible. Rather the Greek episkopos from which the title bishop is derived means overseer. The Greek presbyteros is where we get the word presbyter and simply meant a spiritually mature person in the congregation, elder. Deacon is a transliteration of the Greek diakonos and means a person who ministers or waits upon another. A straight translation into English would be "ministerial servant."

The early Church did not have a laity and a clergy. Rather all were considered to be brothers, no one lording it over the others, and only Jesus as the head and leader of the Christian congregation.

The unscriptural separation of a clergy from the laity, the change of the simple terms of elder to the title Bishop one of spiritual power are all utter deviations from the clear teachings of Jesus Christ during a time of apostasy or turning away from the truth foretold by Jesus and the Christian Greek Scriptures:

"Shepherd the flock of God under your care, serving as overseers, not under compulsion, but willingly before God; not for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly; not lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock."-1 Peter 5:2, 3.

"Not that we are the masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, for it is by your faith that you are standing."-2 Corinthians 1:24.

"Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god."-2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4.

a reply to: MidnightHawk
1 Corinthians ch3 is very important on this theme.
Religious teachers are the servants of God, not the masters of those who follow them (the Popes pay lip-service to this idea in one of their Latin titles).

People have been saying "I belong to Paul" or "I belong to Apollos", but Paul says the truth is the other way round. "We, Paul and Apollos, belong to YOU" (v22).

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
The ancient church fathers taught the following: the New Testament (NT) is the final authority for Christians. They also said anyone requiring one to believe a doctrine that is NOT clearly taught in Scripture should be ignored. There have never been any secret doctrines handed down by the apostles. If any doctrine is vague or DEBATABLE, it is NOT important for salvation.

All doctrine was debatable during the Nicean Councils, therefore, all doctrine should be ignored.

Once you realize Jesus wasn't divine until 350 years after he died, you can start to understand scripture.

The Apostles clearly taught anyone who denies the divinity of Christ is antichrist.

If I was you I would rethink your rejection of the divinity of Christ.

3 John 5:7 - There are three witnesses in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit and all three are one.

John 1:1

both easily prove the divinity of Christ.

originally posted by: rounda

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
The ancient church fathers taught the following: the New Testament (NT) is the final authority for Christians. They also said anyone requiring one to believe a doctrine that is NOT clearly taught in Scripture should be ignored. There have never been any secret doctrines handed down by the apostles. If any doctrine is vague or DEBATABLE, it is NOT important for salvation.

All doctrine was debatable during the Nicean Councils, therefore, all doctrine should be ignored.

Once you realize Jesus wasn't divine until 350 years after he died, you can start to understand scripture.

a reply to: DeathSlayer
People quibble about the wording of those two authorities.
I find more security in the logic of John ch1 v3, which clearly identifies the Word as NOT a member of the category "created-things".

The selection of books that made up the Bible involved Tradition.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
The Apostles clearly taught anyone who denies the divinity of Christ is antichrist.

If I was you I would rethink your rejection of the divinity of Christ.

3 John 5:7 - There are three witnesses in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit and all three are one.

John 1:1

both easily prove the divinity of Christ.

originally posted by: rounda

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
The ancient church fathers taught the following: the New Testament (NT) is the final authority for Christians. They also said anyone requiring one to believe a doctrine that is NOT clearly taught in Scripture should be ignored. There have never been any secret doctrines handed down by the apostles. If any doctrine is vague or DEBATABLE, it is NOT important for salvation.

All doctrine was debatable during the Nicean Councils, therefore, all doctrine should be ignored.

Once you realize Jesus wasn't divine until 350 years after he died, you can start to understand scripture.

That doesn't "prove" the divinity of Christ. The verses in that chapter says Jesus is the Son of God. If that meant he was divine, Genesis 6, "Sons of God, Daughters of Men," would like a word with you, especially when Jesus himself said he was the son of man.

If Jesus existed, which I'm willing to accept, the only thing that can be proven is that he was a man. Unless, of course, you're willing to accept the mythology from any other previous religion to be true where Gods came down to earth and interacted with men, had children with special powers, etc... Because then there would be actual precedence for a divine being to have existed on Earth, and you'd have some precedence to make an argument. Which would then invalidate the "one true God" thing.

Or, if you follow Genesis 6, it means Sons of God, which was used to reconcile the Egyptian, Greek, and Middle Eastern religions (men of renown), were not equal to God. In which case, Jesus is not God.

Otherwise, the bible is based on the word of men, not God. You know, because all the books were written after the fact... By men.

And there's that whole logical inconsistency that God can't die, according to 1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

And Jesus died... So...

Besides, you said yourself, if it can be debated, throw it out.