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Jesus is the most popular communist ever. Why are so many blind to this?

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posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 10:01 AM
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Some other points to consider, oh those who deny Jesus' communist influence. Jesus preached against earthly belongings. They don't get you into heaven, correct? Now what drives capitalism? Earthly belongings. Corporations need to continuously manufacture items for us to buy, even though we do not need them. For example, make and IPod, it's nice, carries all the music you need in one small device. But if everyone who is going to buy one once does, then the company is not putting out a money making device. So what happens? They make new models. Why, what was wrong with the old one? Nothing, but the new one is smaller and has a sleeker design, so you must buy it. But will this IPod get you into heaven? According to Jesus, no. Therefore, I highly doubt Jesus would back a capitalist society which is driven by earthly goods. That new SUV doesn't get you to heaven, at least not with these gas prices.

Also, consider that Jesus had a more peaceful way of preaching his ideas. I don't think he wanted anyone to be forced into this "communist" lifestyle. He wanted everyone to happily agree to the lifestyle, at least all those who agree with his preachings. Think monks, think pilgrims. Check out my link from a couple posts ago.

Here it is again:

latter-rain.com...


[edit on 22-3-2005 by steggyD]




posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 10:13 AM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
The Christian cult thrived for two reasons above all the others. One, they took money from those wealthy citizens who converted, and donated it to the poor and to spread the word. It drove the Jewish Elders mad, because they couldn't figure out where he was getting all his money from for the longest time. Finally they figured out he was taking it from those who joined him and redistributing it to the people to help ease their poverty and win converts.

You got any proof of this?

Also, how can this have had happened if Jesus didn't exsist?


Remember his outburst at the potential convert who wanted to retain his villa because it was given to him by his wife's parents, wealthy land owners in their own right, and she couldn't bear to be without the comfort of it? Jesus got mad, and he doesn't do that often, and tossed the guy out from their inner circle.

?
Nope never heard this one. Please show me where that's at....


Two, he promised peace in the afterlife to those who had never known it in life.

No he didn't...


Remember that line about "it's easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven."

What about it?

The rest of that passage:
When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.



You're right, they had a choice. The ignorant, illiterate peasants were told, give me all your money and do what I say, or don't, and burn forever in eternal hellfire.

Why are you making stuff up?
Or at least provide links to back up your statements...

No where does anything indicate Jesus had money or took money. In fact he had to perform a miracle to pay the tax collectors....

Btw do you or do you not believe he exsisted? How can all this stuff happen if he was never there?




He didn't force it upon them? These people still believe strongly in the gods and he pretty much told them, woprship me or burn in hell for all eternity.

?
He preached to the Jews. The Jews only believe in one God. The same God Jesus believed in.....Jesus was a jew....
And there's no evidence that Jesus forced anything on anybody.

As far as communism....
Well there's the economic system and then there's the government system.
Jesus was in no way a communist - government system definition.

However the economic definition: "A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members."
Is probably how he felt best the church should be run. In theory, it's not that bad.



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 09:22 PM
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Im stoked to see so many others agree that Jesus was a communist and he may have been the first. The practices of the church should not be relevant here because many have come and gone and some are still here that use Jesus's name but ignore his ideals. His message of love charity is perfect IMO and in a perfect world communism is the way.



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 09:35 PM
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You can't keep gaining wealth, without keeping an eye out for your fellow man.
Disturbed, you keep talking how the rich CAN contribute to charity, the rich CAN start schemes to increase employment, the rich CAN, the rich CAN.
But the point is, do they? Not very often.


That isn't true, as I think the recent tsunami showed. Those big bad corporations made massive donations, as did the greedy actors. They gave as much as the average man. Rich people give no more or less then most other people.

It's besides the point if they do or don't, though. They should not be forced. That is not the nature of kindness.

Communism, by its very nature, is violent and oppressive. It is a system that does not give people that thing called FREE WILL. If God gave man free will, it sure as hell was not so some other man could take it away from them.


Im stoked to see so many others agree that Jesus was a communist and he may have been the first. The practices of the church should not be relevant here because many have come and gone and some are still here that use Jesus's name but ignore his ideals. His message of love charity is perfect IMO and in a perfect world communism is the way.


Christians do not ignore Jesus's ideals. Christians give enormous amounts of charity. They donate their time to helping people. They try and be kind. This is the nature of what Jesus taught. Jesus never taught steal from the rich, and give it to the poor.

His followers shared amongst themselves, but you can still find that in religion today. His followers did not take from one another, though. It was always that persons choice.



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 11:33 PM
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Jesus loves you



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 09:59 AM
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Jesus is the most popular communist ever. Why are so many blind to this?


This is absurd. Jesus was a mortal prophet that cared about his fellow man. How does that make him a communist? Given this BS Democratic governement we have now in the US.....I'll take what Jesus was offering over that any day!! The mega-rich power-mongers run this country. This isn't what Jesus wanted, so he was a communist?

Why don't you bring back the McCarthy hearings and put Jesus on trial...and hey, maybe have him crucified again....figuratively of course!!



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
Christians do not ignore Jesus's ideals. Christians give enormous amounts of charity. They donate their time to helping people. They try and be kind. This is the nature of what Jesus taught. Jesus never taught steal from the rich, and give it to the poor.

His followers shared amongst themselves, but you can still find that in religion today. His followers did not take from one another, though. It was always that persons choice.


Spot on, Deliverer! Totally dig it.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 11:15 AM
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Christians do not ignore Jesus's ideals. Christians give enormous amounts of charity. They donate their time to helping people. They try and be kind. This is the nature of what Jesus taught. Jesus never taught steal from the rich, and give it to the poor.

His followers shared amongst themselves, but you can still find that in religion today. His followers did not take from one another, though. It was always that persons choice.


Yes but charity implies that people need charity... with the teachings of Jesus there should be no need for charity... giving to those who are needy isn't the key... it's making yourself the needy until everyone is no longer in need...




15 [14]. Jesus says to them: "When you fast, you will beget sin for yourselves; when you pray, you will be condemned; when you give alms, you will do evil to your souls! when you enter any land and travel over the country, when you are welcomed eat what is put before you; those who are ill in those places, heal them. For what enters into your mouth will not defile you, but what comes out of your mouth, it is that which will defile you!"





6 [6]. His disciples asked and said to him: "Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray, how shall we give alms, what rules concerning eating shall we follow?" Jesus says: "Tell no lie, and whatever you hate, do not do: for all these things are manifest to the face of heaven; nothing hidden will fail to be revealed and nothing disguised will fail before long to be made public!"


Charities are a business and almost none of the money gets to where it's going.. trust me I worked for them .. in the field and in the office...
If you want to help the problem, find someone you know with tha ailments and provide care for them that way, it is more beneficial..


EDIT: ... Oh and about this TRYING to be kind... wouldn't that imply that you're not already kind to begin with... ?? I would rather be trying to be evil.. than trying to be kind....
Jesus didn't TRY and be a savior.. or try to be nice.. he just was.

[edit on 24/3/05 by dnero6911]



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 12:23 PM
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Yes but charity implies that people need charity... with the teachings of Jesus there should be no need for charity... giving to those who are needy isn't the key... it's making yourself the needy until everyone is no longer in need...


That makes no sense at all. It's one of the most illogical statements I've ever seen. Jesus didn't teach everyone to make themselves poor so they are equal with everyone else.


Charities are a business and almost none of the money gets to where it's going.. trust me I worked for them .. in the field and in the office...
If you want to help the problem, find someone you know with tha ailments and provide care for them that way, it is more beneficial..


Private charities are far more efficient then government ones. It's been proven. They spend far more efficiently.


EDIT: ... Oh and about this TRYING to be kind... wouldn't that imply that you're not already kind to begin with... ?? I would rather be trying to be evil.. than trying to be kind....
Jesus didn't TRY and be a savior.. or try to be nice.. he just was.


Kindness is not easy and simple. No one is kind 100% of the time. It's an ideal, not reality.

And to say that Jesus simply was what he was is absurd. If Jesus was truly the son of god, I highly doubt that was an easy thing for him to accept. Jesus in the end was still human, or part human, and he was not perfect. He had to put effort in to everything he did just like anyone else.

If Jesus was a man, and not god's son, then what I said above is even more true.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer

Christians do not ignore Jesus's ideals. Christians give enormous amounts of charity. They donate their time to helping people. They try and be kind. This is the nature of what Jesus taught. Jesus never taught steal from the rich, and give it to the poor.

His followers shared amongst themselves, but you can still find that in religion today. His followers did not take from one another, though. It was always that persons choice.



Chistians yes, but some church goers aren't Christians at heart.




This is absurd. Jesus was a mortal prophet that cared about his fellow man. How does that make him a communist?


I think you look at so called communist governments for your defination of communism. Pure communism is way different than that view.


The word communism is derivite from community and one charitible thing Christians do is give communion, the connection that Jesus brought communist ideals is obvious.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by jrod
Chistians yes, but some church goers aren't Christians at heart.


Sadly true. The whole "you can lead a horse to water" thing I guess.


Originally posted by jrod
I think you look at so called communist governments for your defination of communism. Pure communism is way different than that view.


Agreed. Karl Marx had more of the roots in the Communist Manifesto, but I was taught his ways were more akin to Socialism. Maybe I need to study it more but any addition info is appreciated as to the difference.


Originally posted by jrod
The word communism is derivite from community and one charitible thing Christians do is give communion, the connection that Jesus brought communist ideals is obvious.


Hm, that's interesting. Learn new stuff everyday.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 02:38 PM
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Chistians yes, but some church goers aren't Christians at heart.


That is irrelevent.


I think you look at so called communist governments for your defination of communism. Pure communism is way different than that view.


Everyone likes to say this, but it isn't really true. Marx wrote of steps to achieve the ideal communist state. The Russians had been trying to go through those steps, as have others, and they were simply unable. Even Marx wasn't dumb enough to think you could have a utopia overnight.

Communism is violent and oppressive no matter how you try and view it. You are forcing people to give up what they've earned. You are taking away their free will.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 02:47 PM
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Nobody is forced to do anything in a perfect communist society, in theory everyone would find their niche and support the community and if they dont like what is going on they can find a capitalistic society to live in. All attempts in history have failed b/c greedy people were in charge of the government as is the case for every organization, the more people the more chances of corruption. Cuba might be the exception even though they have had many problems with repression, however I did read somewhere that the average Cuban has a long life expectancy, longer than an American.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 03:26 PM
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more socialist than "communist"...
his ideals were obviously anti capitalism, due to the nature of greed in man
If you don't believe it, look to the sermon on the mount...
he was trying to set the record straight thru all the misapplied quotes and twists that had already taken place at that early age in christianity...

His very reason for being on earth (if we believe he was "son of god in the flesh")
was to set humanity back on the right path... every action and reaction he had was directly against the tyranical Jewish temple tradition...(of that time)

in other words..." the chosen ones had hijacked his name (yahwey/jehovah) to use to control and subjugate the populace". He had to set the record straight in person thru his earthly son...

he hung out with all the people who were outcast from the temple... the unclean ones...the sinners...
he healed them so that they could again go and worship at the temples... so it wasn't the temple or the temple tradition he hated... it was the exclusion of certain peoples that he rejected... and that was specific among the jewish leaders...
he was also the first anti jew revolutionary, but he wasn't anti-semitic, he was anti " abuse my name", and seemed to still hold the jewish faith in high regard, just not the way it was being led. and perhaps still is...

the sermon on the mount is perhaps the closest thing we have to his true words and feelings... and even it is probably tainted by years of church corruption and scandal...



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 03:30 PM
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He is one of the most popular names if not the most in all of history, yet his ideals are so rejected by many especially those who worship him, how come?


Being the most popular does not make ones violitions, actions, and goals correctly justified thereunto. Jesus, historicly, fails to find evidence, and in advocacy of current religious studies in regards to cults, he would have been considered one suffering from an obvious nuero-chemical/biological disorder.




All the scriptures about Jesus are clear about 1 thing, he promotes communist ideals. This fact does not sit well with many evangelicals, when I have brough this up to some church members they have rejected this notion harshly even though the Gospels spell it out. Read the Gospel for yourselves and see that Christ's vision is a perfect communist society.


The Gospels, including the Gnostics, are in no way perfuctory or even directly stating the goals of Marx's Communism: violent revolution and the withering away of the soveriegn. If anything, he was simlpy promoting piousness and good will, morality and just actions, equality and justice. Nary did Jesus ever make mention of violent revolution --though "Amadeus" would have thought otherwise, had he still been a member of this forum.




Why is this such a difficult idea for so many to accept? Most folks agree that money is the root of all evil but a cashless society where everyone bpitches in is even worst why is that?


Money is just a tool to further promote our own self-regarding egos, it is not the root of all evil. It's become a much lauded cliche, but it's fondness is found only in the minds who tout it, to externaly laminate money as the sole deployment of evil is tatamount to label 'Good' and 'Evil' as forces found in nature, not to mention devoid of simply praxeology.




Jesus would have supported a capiitalist system if anything, simply because it gave people the right to choose what they wanted to do. I can't see Jesus believing charity a person is forced to give means anything.


Under what grounds, and what model of Capitalism? I hardly doubt Yahusha would abet true laissez-faire capitalism that favours no intervention in the economy by the soveriegn power, especialy being, that he was born for that very reason.

No?




The idea of wealth redistribution means people are violently forced to give up what they have. It is not charity because people are made to give, and probably to something they don't even believe in.

It is only real, pure charity when a person does it out of their own free will.


Have you ever traveled to Sweden, Canada, Norway, or any other countries that abide by a mixed economic system: Socialism and Capitalism? These countries engage in redistribution of wealth as they have come to realize that the collectivist ideal is much more healty and promotes greater freedom than the true capitalism system which favours, if anything, social darwinism.




Capitalism isn't a system about screwing the poor. It's about letting people choose for themselves where they spend their money. It's about letting people control their own fate.


Of course it screws over the poor, the best example would be the 45 million in America who can't find jobs due to corporations moving factories to third world countries where they can find greater economic freedoms.




This isn't the spirit of capitalism. Capitalism comes from the same virtues as communism, it just goes about achieving them in a different and more realistic manner. Everyone can not be super rich. A society can not have wealth distributed truly equally, while surviving and progressing.


Of course, Adam Smith, the father of Capitalism, also suggested that the Invisible Hand would benefit all of society, and it's worked so far, correct?

Capitalism does not begate freedoms, it's an economic system.

Deep



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 05:03 PM
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Nobody is forced to do anything in a perfect communist society, in theory everyone would find their niche and support the community and if they dont like what is going on they can find a capitalistic society to live in. All attempts in history have failed b/c greedy people were in charge of the government as is the case for every organization, the more people the more chances of corruption. Cuba might be the exception even though they have had many problems with repression, however I did read somewhere that the average Cuban has a long life expectancy, longer than an American.


The fact that you'd call Cuba an exception to the corruption of other communist governments shows how much you've thought this statement through. Communism calls for the destruction of capitalism. It is hardly just excepted that people can go live somewhere else. People can't do whatever they want, either. Communism calls for the destruction of religion. Someone who doesn't want to give up everything they earned? Killed, or thrown out of society. Why should a person have to move out of where they live just because a bunch of lazy commies want to steal what they earned?


Under what grounds, and what model of Capitalism? I hardly doubt Yahusha would abet true laissez-faire capitalism that favours no intervention in the economy by the soveriegn power, especialy being, that he was born for that very reason.


Jesus supported free will. His "intervention" came through merely teaching, never forcing anything upon anyone. Only in a capitalist society are people truly free to do what they please.


Have you ever traveled to Sweden, Canada, Norway, or any other countries that abide by a mixed economic system: Socialism and Capitalism? These countries engage in redistribution of wealth as they have come to realize that the collectivist ideal is much more healty and promotes greater freedom than the true capitalism system which favours, if anything, social darwinism.


I have been to Canada. I've met many Canadians. Their government systems are widely inefficient. They pay ungodly taxes. Many people come over to America to work if they live near the border. They have high unemployment.


Of course it screws over the poor, the best example would be the 45 million in America who can't find jobs due to corporations moving factories to third world countries where they can find greater economic freedoms.


Wait...How is that screwing over the poor? Aren't they giving the jobs to those who need them even more? I don't think Jesus would think this evil simply because the people aren't of the same nationality.

By hiring these people in third world nations, they help those people, and they make products cheaper for the consumer back in America.


Of course, Adam Smith, the father of Capitalism, also suggested that the Invisible Hand would benefit all of society, and it's worked so far, correct?


Of course it benefits all of society. That was my points. Everyone still does not have equal wealth and living standards, though. That was my other point. Capitalism makes it the best for everyone. Communism simply makes it bad for everyone.


Capitalism does not begate freedoms, it's an economic system


Capitalism can only exist with freedom. Communism and capitalism, while technically economic systems, require certain types of governments to be in charge.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 09:32 PM
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Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
Why should a person have to move out of where they live just because a bunch of lazy commies want to steal what they earned?

[


This would never happened in a perfect communist society, there would be no lazy people because someone who does not produce for the community will be left out.(i think some of Jesus's parables go there if not somewhere in the good book does.)There also would not be a need for government because everyone would help each other, the doctors would tend to the sick and injured, the carpenters would build houses, the farmers would farm, ect...


Capitalism has some positive things no doubt and it has been proven by the U.S.A. to be the most succesful economic system ever(even though we still have some Socialism going on, i.e. Welfare) and there is one thing about our society that makes me want to believe. All the good Christian families that I have met who go to church and see the light are succesful financially or at least pull their own weight, and I have seen many who were at rock bottom start going to church and full heartidly commit to it get right back on their feet. Of course they also still have tragedies and crisies but they also seen to handle themselves much better in difficult times. There is something super natural that helps those people.


As for the atheist who make it big, either they are are greedy and step all over anyone to achieve wealth, they are just smart enough to get it done, or a combo of the two. Someone with out faith is much more vulnerable of loosing their wealth than someone with good faith.



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 09:39 PM
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Originally posted by jrod

All the scriptures about Jesus are clear about 1 thing, he promotes communist ideals. This fact does not sit well with many evangelicals, when I have brough this up to some church members they have rejected this notion harshly even though the Gospels spell it out. Read the Gospel for yourselves and see that Christ's vision is a perfect communist society.


Just one question : What would be wrong with the PERFECT comunist society(no couruption, etc etc.)? the only thing that would scare people is that it goes against capitalism!

[edit on 24/3/05 by ivanglam]



posted on Mar, 24 2005 @ 10:22 PM
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Jesus could possibly have been considered "communist" but definitely not a Marxist communist. Marx boasts that communism can only be achieved through force and violence. He states this several times throughout the manifesto for practical reasons- those in complete power in a capitalist society would not give up that power to become equal with fellow man. THus, common man must forcibly take up arms and remove them from power. Makes sense for Marx- not for Jesus.

Jesus would be more of a Utopian, believing that with the correct direction from God, those in power would give up their power to help their fellow man. This, however, is not practical.

Thus lies the big difference between Marx and Jesus- practicality.



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 12:08 AM
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This would never happened in a perfect communist society, there would be no lazy people because someone who does not produce for the community will be left out.(i think some of Jesus's parables go there if not somewhere in the good book does.)There also would not be a need for government because everyone would help each other, the doctors would tend to the sick and injured, the carpenters would build houses, the farmers would farm, ect...


Someone could very well be working, just doing a bad job at it. On purpose or not is irrelevent. What then? Who decides to throw this person out? There is no government in a perfect society.


Just one question : What would be wrong with the PERFECT comunist society(no couruption, etc etc.)? the only thing that would scare people is that it goes against capitalism!


What's wrong? Man is not a complacent creature. People desire things for themselves, and their families. Some people like to be the best. None of these things are allowed in a communist society. By denying these things, you are denying human nature.

Besides that, your perfect society simply doesn't work. We can see the problems socialism bring across Europe. When governments increase taxes, and redistribute the wealth, those being taxed have less to spend. This creates more unemployed. The government, in all of its wisdom, starts supporting these people. This means that they have to increase taxes. This just once again pulls everyone else down. It just keeps repeating. The proof is in Germany and France.

Your communist society makes it impossible to progress. Technologies like computers wouldn't exist. You know why? It takes vast resources to develop these ideas. In a capitalist society, people can make equal, logical transactions. In a communist society, people are forced to give up what they have. There isn't logic. The people who could do the most with those resources no longer have them.






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