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Urban Survivalism- Thoreau, 21st century style

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posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 03:12 PM
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My favorite philosopher, Henry David Thoreau, accomplished a feat which we facing the development of a New World Order may do well to study. He took leave of society and provided for himself rather than forcing himself to be entangled in the economy in which men were "...working themselves sick to lay something up against a sick day."

Sounds familiar doesn't it? To the best of my understanding, the powers that be wish to for the common man to become a modern day serf- who essentially works simply to pay for his room, board, and taxes. It is almost as if the economy were engineered to ensure that the majority of us remained sufficiently in debt- that we should rent and borrow rather than buy and save.
If that's not your cup of tea, too bad. Unlike Thoreau, you do not have a friend who owns a lake in the wilderness. You can not just run away to build a log cabin and go unnoticed. How can a man choose to free himself from society in the age of debt and information- where we can not hope to go unwatched or unbilled no matter what we do?

I am in the process of devising a system whereby a man could disappear into the urban wildnerness to live as Thoreau did- with minimal obligation to the needless complexities of economics.
I believe that a person can survive with no home, no phone, no address, and yet appear perfectly civilized and lead a normal life.
What does a person need to stay alive?
1. Food and Water.
2. Shelter from the elements.
3. Proper hygiene to maintain health.

A person in the proper environment can provide all of these things for 225 dollars month and remain completely "off the grid". To start you will need a few hundred dollars worth of gear which the average person already owns.

You have a bicycle, a gymbag, 5 sets of clothes, an electric shaver, a toothbrush, a can opener, a fork, and a water bottle.

You can hygiene for approximately 30 dollars a month either by maintaining a gym membership under an assumed name (through a municipal or non-franchise gym that will take your payments in cash) or through a truck stop (preferable). If you absolutely could not afford this, you could hygiene in any public restroom with a wet rag and bar of soap, provided you use a different one every day so they dont know you're the one making a mess.

You can do your laundry once a week at a laundramat for about 15 bucks a month.

You can eat canned meats, fresh veggies, and bread from the store for about 2 bucks a meal, or 180 bucks a month. Stealing is not conducive to survival, so when you can't pay it's best to ask. I say ask not beg- a begger does not present himself respectably and doesn't get very much. A normal looking, mildly charismatic person who asks for something will almost always get it.

So you're well fed, well dressed, and clean shaven. You only need two more things- a place to sleep and a meager income. Since you are well fed, well dressed, and clean shaven, you are actually allowed to sleep pretty much where ever you want during the daytime, especially in a large city where places are large and people are easy to miss. You go into a library, fast food place, park, etc, do business with them if applicable, be nice to the people, then go pick a comfortable semi-reclining spot in a corner somewhere and nod off. You probably wont be noticed, but if you are all you have to do is smile, appologize, be on your way, and wait a week or so before you come back to the same spot again.

So you're living- but since it's costing you 225 a month you can only carry it on for so long unless you can find employment off the books, or find another way to make money. That is one of those things where it becomes every man for himself. Some would just resort to petty crime, maybe sell a little pot or something like that. Others would be negotiate part-time employment to be paid under the table. Some would do odd-jobs like tutoring. Go with your strengths. Worst case scenario, unless payroll departments have their act together MUCH better than I expect, you can earn a weeks pay under a fake name and quit before your employer ever finds out you are bogus, and at least in California they then have only 3 days to cut you a check- meaning that you'll get your money and leave them wondering what the hell is wrong with the info on your W-4. You'd only have to work one week a month- and thats only if you didn't have a couple thousand bucks stockpiled to live on.




posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 03:48 PM
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This topic has been on my mind recently, not so much the NWO part, but I'm growing increasingly tired of "civilization". I've read a few tings on survivalism and they all seem to state that it is in your best interest to have a dwelling of some sort. Granted, you could live on the streets or squat in an abandonned building, but is that really perferable to modern day serfism? In New York City vagrancy is illegal, you don't even have to be sleeping for them to haul you in. Climate would be another issue of sleeping outdoors, many cities have cold winters. Cold enough to have you considering a cubilce job in a day.

Food on the other hand would be no issue at all, most larger cities have provisions set up to feed the homeless, which, in fact you'd be. In New York City every neighborhood has a van that comes around twice a day from the Coalition to Help the Homeless, they'll give you more food than you can eat, and it'll be cooked and hot when you get it. Also, it's impossible to starve to death on the streets of a major city. Most of the larger chains like Starbucks and Dunkin Donuts throw out the food they don't sell that day, it's still good and still packaged.

Personal protection would be an issue. Most cities have very nice, very safe areas, but vagrancy in such areas is rarely tolerated. Guns and large knives are out of the question as you would already be suspect to searches and would find yourself in jail before nightfall. Make no mistake, times have changed in the past 20 or so years but people haven't. I once heard a story from a homeless man, he said he was lucky that he even had one shoe, since the only other person in the neighborhood with a shoe was the one who robbed him for the left one.

Money could fast become an issue, but since you'd be in an urban environment you have access to ATM machines. Granted you couldn't live off the grid with a bank account, but I think a week on the streets would have you wishing for a money reserve. However, without a permanent place of residence "they" couldn't "track you down".

Urban survivalism is an interesting proposal but I think the negatives would greatly outwheigh the positives. Surviving in the forrest allows greater freedom whereas living on the streets in Manhatten will simply leave you forgotten and more than likely get you in trouble. Urban survivalism would be somthing to plan for if you fear an NWO take over, but as a goal it seems a poor idea. Instead of the effort of getting a new job every week, you could simply continue to save your money, buy a half acre of land in the middle of nowhere, like the Catskill mountains (beautiful area, I lived there for a few years) and live out your years in freedom. Freedom seems to be what you desire, and take it from me, you won't find it living on the streets.

P.S. if only Walden was still required reading we wouldn't be in this mess



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 04:04 PM
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www.abovetopsecret.com...

Have a look there, it's a lot to read but it could help you if you wish to leave and survive on your own. You don't even need a gym, etc, if you know how to do it.

Also, in England you can live out in the sticks - no problems.

Not sure about the rest of the world.



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 04:44 PM
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You said a mouthfull bro
. Lots to answer there (of course these aren't "answers"- just my take on the matter as it relates to what I would want to do.

Anti-vagrancy laws and sleeping arrangements: Don't look like or act like a vagrant and your worries are over. You don't even have to sleep out doors, because if you don't look like a vagrant you are allowed indoors, and people wont even notice if you fall asleep in a quiet corner somewhere, providing you're not one to snore.

Climate: If you are going to choose to become homeless, have the good sense to do it in a temperate, relatively dry place. Los Angeles isn't a bad choice by any means- in fact almost any city in Southern California, of any size from Palm Springs to LA, would be fine.

Cubicle Job: At least in my case, there's really no aversion to work. Just an aversion to being tracked, managed, and exploited. If I didn't have work I'd make work. The key in my mind would be to befriend people and work under the table with friends, or become involved in helping them with whatever random projects they may be up to in their own lives. Staying busy and earning a living would be an important obstacle- probably the biggest, as far as I'm am concerned. But no cubicle job. To hell with cubicles, and offices in general.

Personal defense: I can't imagine becoming the sort of failed human who sleeps in dark alleys in the ghetto and has to worry about watching his back. Stay on the good side of town, hygiene and change clothes daily, and be nice to people. That's your personal defense.

Money: Living in a safe area you could carry around your bankroll for the entire month in your wallet and never give it a second thought.

Saving up money and moving out to the woods: There's exactly the point- that's what I would be leaving society to get away from. I don't want to be bound to my land like a serf. I don't want to spend 30 years breaking my back in hopes of owning property some day, just to have the government tax it so much when I die that my heirs will start all over again as modern-day serfs. Being untraceable is a nice boon, but at least at this point in time, it wouldn't trump my primary motivation for wanting to escape this ridiculous social/economic structure we bind ourselves with.
If I gave up on having a place to call home today, I'd work, I'd own a vehicle, and I woudl keep my money for myself so that I could amass the profits of my work to invest in own future as I saw fit, as opposed to handing it over to the landlord (notice that I use that word in the fuedal sense- they haven't even changed the word. It really is analogous.)


So there's what I had in mind, hopefully in a little better context. I'm not talking about becoming a bum. I'm talking about living a fairly typical modern life on my own terms- and excercising my right to invest my income where I see fit, and not be locked into some sort of mandatory economy.

EDIT: I just thought I'd clarify that I don't plan to actually persue this course, at least not at the moment, simply because I have other things to get through before I can worry about sacrificing myself to prove a point about "modern life". Maybe after I've got my education out of the way, decided what I want to spend my life doing, and have had a good run of it, I'll do this with my later years and write a book about it.

For now it's sort of like my escape plan, in the event that I should decide to kill somebody, or should become wanted for some thought crime.

[edit on 21-3-2005 by The Vagabond]



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 05:57 PM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
You said a mouthfull bro
. Lots to answer there (of course these aren't "answers"- just my take on the matter as it relates to what I would want to do.

Anti-vagrancy laws and sleeping arrangements: Don't look like or act like a vagrant and your worries are over. You don't even have to sleep out doors, because if you don't look like a vagrant you are allowed indoors, and people wont even notice if you fall asleep in a quiet corner somewhere, providing you're not one to snore.

Climate: If you are going to choose to become homeless, have the good sense to do it in a temperate, relatively dry place. Los Angeles isn't a bad choice by any means- in fact almost any city in Southern California, of any size from Palm Springs to LA, would be fine.

Cubicle Job: At least in my case, there's really no aversion to work. Just an aversion to being tracked, managed, and exploited. If I didn't have work I'd make work. The key in my mind would be to befriend people and work under the table with friends, or become involved in helping them with whatever random projects they may be up to in their own lives. Staying busy and earning a living would be an important obstacle- probably the biggest, as far as I'm am concerned. But no cubicle job. To hell with cubicles, and offices in general.

Personal defense: I can't imagine becoming the sort of failed human who sleeps in dark alleys in the ghetto and has to worry about watching his back. Stay on the good side of town, hygiene and change clothes daily, and be nice to people. That's your personal defense.

Money: Living in a safe area you could carry around your bankroll for the entire month in your wallet and never give it a second thought.

Saving up money and moving out to the woods: There's exactly the point- that's what I would be leaving society to get away from. I don't want to be bound to my land like a serf. I don't want to spend 30 years breaking my back in hopes of owning property some day, just to have the government tax it so much when I die that my heirs will start all over again as modern-day serfs. Being untraceable is a nice boon, but at least at this point in time, it wouldn't trump my primary motivation for wanting to escape this ridiculous social/economic structure we bind ourselves with.
If I gave up on having a place to call home today, I'd work, I'd own a vehicle, and I woudl keep my money for myself so that I could amass the profits of my work to invest in own future as I saw fit, as opposed to handing it over to the landlord (notice that I use that word in the fuedal sense- they haven't even changed the word. It really is analogous.)


So there's what I had in mind, hopefully in a little better context. I'm not talking about becoming a bum. I'm talking about living a fairly typical modern life on my own terms- and excercising my right to invest my income where I see fit, and not be locked into some sort of mandatory economy.

EDIT: I just thought I'd clarify that I don't plan to actually persue this course, at least not at the moment, simply because I have other things to get through before I can worry about sacrificing myself to prove a point about "modern life". Maybe after I've got my education out of the way, decided what I want to spend my life doing, and have had a good run of it, I'll do this with my later years and write a book about it.

For now it's sort of like my escape plan, in the event that I should decide to kill somebody, or should become wanted for some thought crime.

[edit on 21-3-2005 by The Vagabond]


not to be getting smart here but this is far fetched perhaps you should test this theory for a week I bet the will notice you sleeping in that corner.



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 06:24 PM
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You could be right, but my experience has always been that people aren't paying attention, and/or don't care. Back when i was young, foolish, and prefered to ditch school, I discovered that you can camp out in a Carls Jr. fast food joint for four hours without the employees even realizing you're still there. I just hung out working on these logic problems for most of the school day, and after about 4 hours the lady is bringing somebody else their meal and says, "wow, you're still here?" and doesn't even hint that i should leave.

I really think that if you don't bug people they just assume they don't have the right to bug you.

EDIT: I just realized, I dont know if i posted this earlier or not. I actually have a friend who knows a guy who somehow blew the money his parents had been sending him- and ended up without an apartment. He basically lived out of the school library for a month, showering in the dorms, mooching food from friends, and basically camping out in the library between classes and until it closed, then apparently finishing the night in his car.
His story was partial inspiration for the idea that you could get around the hygiene problem.

[edit on 21-3-2005 by The Vagabond]



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 06:29 PM
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Well, if you want to know how to survive outside - use my posts.

As for people not caring. People don't. We no longer have time to care.

Not to long ago, in the middle of my town, crowded street an old man fell over. Me and two other people stopped out of, I'd say...50+ and I was about 10meters away. People just kept moving.

We don't have a chance to care. We now focus on 'I' instead of 'US'.

AS long as 'we' are 'O.K.' whatelse matters? WE've gotten rid of common-sense and decency to...well... give us the world now.

Another example, is a study in New York (rather famous) where a woman was raped/murdered and over 40people heard/could see it. Nobody cared or phoned the Police. The guy could have been stopped but instead they let her get killed.

Because they 'thought somebody else would have delt with it, if it was a problem'.



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 06:30 PM
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I think you could learn a few things from illegals working in this country. It would be much easier if you set up a fake identity and social security number. With a ss# you could find employment easier. For employment if you do not want to work hard labor or migrant type of work having an address and phone are pretty essential nowadays. At least have an id with an address and a cell phone.

This is a very interesting idea. I think you would need to do a dry run first and then make some modifications to your plan as needed.



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
You could be right, but my experience has always been that people aren't paying attention, and/or don't care. Back when i was young, foolish, and prefered to ditch school, I discovered that you can camp out in a Carls Jr. fast food joint for four hours without the employees even realizing you're still there. I just hung out working on these logic problems for most of the school day, and after about 4 hours the lady is bringing somebody else their meal and says, "wow, you're still here?" and doesn't even hint that i should leave.

I really think that if you don't bug people they just assume they don't have the right to bug you.

EDIT: I just realized, I dont know if i posted this earlier or not. I actually have a friend who knows a guy who somehow blew the money his parents had been sending him- and ended up without an apartment. He basically lived out of the school library for a month, showering in the dorms, mooching food from friends, and basically camping out in the library between classes and until it closed, then apparently finishing the night in his car.
His story was partial inspiration for the idea that you could get around the hygiene problem.

[edit on 21-3-2005 by The Vagabond]


I may be able to explain carls jr's atleast how it is where I live it seems to be popular amoung the homeless because the got big flack for kicking out a homeless man that died of freezing to death and the press made a big deal out of it.

the thing is it may take people a while to notice but once they do your going to get stuck with the lable then you will be watched even more.

if I was going to do the uban survival thing I would probly squat it find an abandoned house enter late at night leave with all my stuff early in the morning before 8 am since the only people that would visit would probly be owners of some real estate buisiness and business hours usually start at 9 am then I would stash my stuff in a storage locker or something.

[edit on 21-3-2005 by noctu]



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 07:30 PM
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I would add to this, to get a cheap but comfortable car so you could drive somewhere quiet and get a whole nights worth uninterrupted sleep protected from elements. Much rather this than sleeping upright ina chair in some library being disturbed every couple hours. Also even with a whole cities worth of spots to sleep, pretty soon you'd be well known, staff'd be on lookout etc. Either way your plan doesnt sound too appealing, your quality of life would take a huge downward turn, and you'd still have to work anyway!

I thing these types of plans for survival, are best left to when the # hits the fan (im thinking end of civilization as we know it). Our society may be crap, but itd be darn lonely 'off the grid' on your own.



posted on Mar, 21 2005 @ 07:58 PM
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I admit it's hardly a vision of Utopia. Just an idea I've been toying with. I don't if anyone else here has ever bought a book from Paladin Press, but I for one was pretty well disgusted with how little real thought was put into some of their "disappearing" tricks, I figured if nothing else i could come up with better than them.

To be honest, I feel a little immature for even having brought the topic up, because I think we all know that its pretty much the sort of hypoethical scenario that doesn't go much of anywhere- but it seemed interesting at the time.



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 01:39 AM
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Seems like it's a lot easier these days to live outside of the mainstream, and it's even easier in the city than on the countryside.

Free lodging?

Full of places where to squat in big of middle-sized cities. Looks for abandoned warehouses, schools or office buildings. Cities are full of these places, and some might even have some working water faucets and toilets. Try to look for places that are underground, since this is where you won't need any source of heating (for cities where they have cold winters).

Free food?

Finding food is a lot easier than what we expect. There are 2 ways: dumpster diving and asking kiosk sellers at your nearest market for surplus vegetables, when the market is closing. For dumpster diving, well I know it looks tricky to some, but huge quantities of great vegetables can be found into dumpsters a little while after stores are closing. You can always find some bread at the closing of a baker's. It's preposterous how the food markets are trashing food that's still very eatable... but that can be used to your advantage!

Stealing, as some other people said here, is not recommendable at the long term since you ALWAYS end up being caught by aithorities. It's not very productive neither, since you can't steal huge amounts of food at the same time. And there's the "thou shall not steal too", hehe!

The best recommendation I could give to anyone who wants to live away from the market is to turn vegetarian, and get a good vegetarian recipes book. Vegetables are the easiest to find when stores are closing, and they can be preserved for a longer time than meat. Same thing for grains in general.

Electricity?

Every public or commercial building has electricity plugs that nobody's even using, both in toilets and in open spaces.

Toilet papers, soaps, other cosmetics

Steal them into offices/schools/malls WCs. Dumpster diving is also a go for cosmetics, but soap bars and tooth paste are very easy to make with basic ingredients. There's a lot on infos on the web about that.



As another poster said, it is very, very important to not look like a beggar, since image is the first thing that people will relate to when they see you napping on that cozy public sofa in an open space. You don't really have to look rich or cultivated, just have to look like the average Joe and peole won't even notice you. Keep you hairs clean, no ugly shiny gels, and shave your beard.



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 09:22 AM
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I used to know a guy that lived out of his pickup. He had a decent camper on the back. He showed me that every night fast food places right before they closed would throw out food they did not sell. Kroger food stores would do the same. Kroger will throw out meat and bread that is still edible but does not look fresh because people don't buy it. You can also for money drive around on trash day and pick up good used goods that you could sell to others.



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 11:20 AM
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With regard to "Nobody Noticing" you sleeping in public places, I have to say that this is WAY off base. I work in a Library, and I can tell you that it definitely IS noticed and not accepted. This for years has been a problem in public buildings, and libraries in particular. I have seen as many as 20% of our computer terminals occupied by sleeping homeless people. While in many ways, it would be a relief to live off the grid, so to speak, I have a moral issue with anyone who leeches off of the tax system and never contributes. Anyone who does so is a parasitic theif (With the exception of the disabled). The library I work in is also a University library, and I can confidently say that the students who rely on the library, and who incidentally pay exhorbatant tuition fees, NOTICE you.

Not to sound abrasive, but either live "on the grid" or "off the grid". You can't have it both ways.

[edit on 22-3-2005 by spike]



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 12:14 PM
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``

i applaud your desire....

the Gypsy thing is fraught with pitfalls & physical, emotional distress

Van & camper life is bound to stall, its way too costly & maint. intensive

for quiet/safe squatting; those Property Mgmt Key boxes use E-Z
remembered lock combinations like-> left 'S' right 'E' left 'X'

the underground-catacomb realm of cities, attract the darker-sinister
side of society....kinda like the 'morlocks' of Wells' "Time Machine" story

i was on a 'golden pond' adventure, once....
the 1st three years (of paying for land) the taxes ....~ $40.oo year
the 2 years with construction trailer my taxes......... ~ $120.oo year
the 1st year of 2 bed house assessment taxes .......~$400.oo year
year 2 , same house on same acre, taxes were........~$600.oo year
year 3 , same house on same acre, taxes were........~$800.oo year
year 5 , same house on same acre, taxes were........ ~$1200.oo year

then a special assessment of $1500.oo together with the taxes
being greater than the 15 year mortgage cost-> i sold it !
Rude Awakening= you don't own land, you 'lease' it from the taxing authority

suggestion, find yourself a well to do 'significant-other' or, if your into-it
escond yourself in a cult, sect, commune...theres' some in Montana which
have bunkers & live on root crops...
yo, you've gotta make compromises whichever way you turn.



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 01:50 PM
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You guys realize that your basically talking about being BUMS.

You say you want to 'leave civilization', yet you'd stay in a major city like New York? That makes no sense and your standard of living would be pretty damn horrible according to the plan laid out in the first post. Believe me I commuted into NYC for many years and I wouldn't want to live the life of the cleanest, most well off bums that I saw on a regular basis.

If you want to leave society and go back to a simplisitic life such as our ancestors experienced, do it the real way. Abandon money and physical possessions completely, and go live off the land. I imagine that stress levels would be much less. You could experience nature and spend hours contemplating life without all the BS.

I much rather prefer to go live in the mountain woods with a bunch of tools and basic supplies. You could build yourself a log cabin shelter. You could have a clean flowing stream nearby for fresh water and to bathe. You could spend your days hunting for food and tending to a small produce garden. You would really only need to go to civilization occassionaly for maybe some new fresh clothes (unless you want to make your own) and some other basic essentials. Since these would be cheap and infrequent, you could set up a bank account beforehand with several thousand dollars, which you only access on trips to civilization.

I heard about one guy who did this. Apparently he bought an abandoned mine in the Rockies and was able to scrape enough ore together on occassion to trade it for cash when he needed it. Everything else he made or supplied himself.



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 02:03 PM
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I hope you didn't think I was opposing your idea, rather I think living free should be on all our minds. But I speak from experience, I grew up in New York City and still live there to this day. Trust me when I say money is a neccesity.

I actually knew a couple people, college aged neo-hippies, who lived much the way you're suggesting. However, one of them was forced to live inside a bush in the Park, one of them lived in a car, and the others drifted from house to house until they wore out their welcome. Every one of them was forced to sell narcotics to make money, mostly opting for less serious ones like marijuana. These weren't people who had fallen on hard times. They were from places like Ohio and sought much the same freedom as you describe. Personaly, I simply believe to be harder than you might think.

There've been times when I couldn't afford food, let alone anything else, for days. You learn pretty quickly how to survive without money when you're hungry, but believe me, it is not freedom. Granted I've always had a house, save for a few occasions, but there've been long periods when I didn't even have a dollar in my pocket. I won't get into it here but that is no way to live. Bottom line you need two things: a house and a source of income.

You can't live in a car without gas, because most cities have alternating parking regulations forcing you to move your car every two days lest it be towed. Squatting sounds nice, but most abandonned buildings are either unsafe to occupy or thouroughly infested with roaches and over sized rats. I don't know if any of you have seen a dwelling that has been basically ruled by the roaches for a few years, but you do not want to live in it. Moreover you would probably become seriously ill in a short period of time. Aside from vermin, most squat spots are already inhabited and not by people of the same mind set as you. Personally, I wouldn't sleep in a squat with anything of value, and that would include clothing, shoes, razors, etc.

As for personal protection I do believe it to be necessary. Having lived in a city my whole life I've had my fair share of guns and knives pulled on me. Needless to say, when you're looking down the barrell of that gun you really wish you fingers were wrapped around somthing better than a Snicker's bar. You don't have to believe me, but people will stab you for 5 dollars if they need their crack fix. Being nice to people should be a rule no matter where you live but will hardly stop a bullet.

Staying in nice areas is all well and good, but how many homeless people do you see in Beverly Hills? The Upper East Side of Manhatten is perhaps the richest area and there are no homeless people. If you atempted to sleep in that area you'd find yourself on a cot behind bars in no time flat.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you in terms of breaking the neo-serfist bonds and find this subject to be of endless interest. In fact I may have to put some of our theories into practice, my landlord is currently in the process of having me illegally evicted. He literally changed the lease without our knowledge and is now trying to drag on the legal processes to the point that we can't afford the legal fees anymore. The person who owns this building has never seen it, never been in it, never even lived in the neighborhood. The superintedant of the bulding steals from you if you let him in the house, watches your wife undress through the windows, and couldn't fix a toilet if you put a gun to his head. I know better than most the horrors of economic enslavement.

What I would suggest is that anyone interested in living free of an economic feudal society keep the philosophy to a minimum and research the topic. I think you'll find a lot of land in remote areas is cheaper than you'd expect it. A half acre of land in certain areas is laughably small. Granted 600,000 dollars is a lot of money, but in rural New York State will get you the land area of a small town. I've seen 1,000 acres with fishing and hunting land go for that much. Yes, you will owe taxes, but I hardly think the IRS will spend time trying to find someone without a listed phone number or mailing adrees let a lone a paved road who hasn't paid his taxes on a half acre of land and a log cabin. Urban survivalism leads you into a form of enslavement to which there is little escape. The job market in most cities is not that good and the thought that you could get a job for a week whenever you want is a pipe dream, no offense. Perhaps it's a bit socialist of me to say it, but the best route may be to find like minded people and set up a form of commune in some remote rural area. 10 people is more than you'd need to run a subsistance farm and with a satellite internet link up you'd be able to make whatever extra money you'd need. I worked on a farm for a few years and we only had 4 people, myself included running the whole thing.

It's just a thought but I'd like to hear what you think of communal living as opposed to "lone wolf" survivalism.



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 02:34 PM
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Henry David Thoreau is my hero too. Then a little later I found St. Francis of Assisi. Between the two of them my life has changed for the better.

I woke up one morning and in a burst of light wondered, "What am I doing?" I work all day for the money to pay for all of these things. Evenings and weekends are taken up with the care of everything I have drawn round me. I decided that I wasn't having any fun.

The remarks on the above posts are not the way I chose to go. I like having my own place with hot shower, etc. So I did things a little different. If you only go for the very basics you can live on little.

The reason I am blessed with a computer is because I use it for the work I do. I actually work about 3 days a week.

I don't have a car, use public transportation.
I don't have a cell phone, only my business phone.
don't have DVD's, VCR, and only the very basic cable to get the news. It costs $10.00 per month.

All of my clothes fit into a small closet. I am clean, but not fashionable. The clothes I do buy are purchased at Good Will.

I rent a cheap apartment. Over the years that I have lived here I do a little work for the owners and my rent has never gone up. I don't have jobs to do, I just take care of anything that I see needs help. Pull some weeds out of the garden, sweep the sidewalks, water the flowers. These are not chores for me, they are blessings.

The library is very close to me and I make numerous trips there and sometimes spend all day reading a book. Or I might do some kind of crafts, or even paint a picture. I am never bored. The animal life around here is spell binding.

I think that I am in-between what you are talking about. I live very well in society. I don't accept any welfare, food stamps, medical etc. So they have nothing on me. I pay all of my bills on time. I usually have very little IRS tax to pay because I don't make enough money. I do not get the earned income credit either.

Taking care of myself and working for what I want is a big part of my Blessed life. Did I say I live right across the street from my church and take part in the services there.

Just thought I would throw out these ideas to show that you do not have to live to either extreme. Do not be greedy and you can have a wonderful life without a lot of "stuff".



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 04:08 PM
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I wanted to add this,....but again, I don't want to sound like I'm putting anyone down. I agree that Thoreau is wonderful author and philosopher, BUT it's important to remember that he indeed was supported by wealthy patrons like many other authors and artists of the time. That doesn't damage your argument,........but it does cast a light on his.



posted on Mar, 22 2005 @ 04:43 PM
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Mahree seems to be on the same page with me here, and is a lot more practical about it than I am.

As I said earlier, I actually have things planned for life in society, and if I ever experimented with living out of contact with the government and out of interaction with those parts of the economy which I find counter-productive it would basically be a brief experiment in my later years- perhaps as the basis for a book.

My point in all of this is a little more valid than the admittedly strange and questionable means I have suggested for carrying it out. The point in the end is simply that the things that are supposed to be a boon to our quality of life have ended up being instruments of control over us.
I think that to the greatest extent practical (where ever that mind fall) it would be very interesting to experiment with ways of disengaging from the controls of the government and society by cutting back any and all spending that is not vitally necessary.

And of course bringing this back to the forum topic- NWO- this system of economic control over us may very well be leading up to a sort of neo-feudalism/fascism. If indeed the government began reaching into our lives in unacceptable ways, debt and employment would be the chains than bound us to them.

[edit on 22-3-2005 by The Vagabond]



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