Scotland Separatists - The great misdirection

a reply to: CJCrawley

Blair can regret it all he wants, the people of those nations wanted devolved power. Who was Blair or anyone else to deny them?
As I said before, the rise on nationalist support is more down to the cruel and vindictive nature of Austerity and other policies that targeted the most needy and vulnerable along with completely ignoring the wishes and interests of the people from these regions - all regions outside of London, The Home Counties and the South East if the truth is to be told - for decades.

This coincided with The Labour Party's decision to abandon its traditional core support in favour of woke politics and the interests of every minority/special interest group.

Nationalism was the only option left available.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

The Highland Clearances was primarily Scots v Scots as was nearly every other major conflict in Scotland.

The one thing the English did, something which they have been quite good at over the years, is exploit existing differences.
If there wasn't so much bad blood, ill feeling and long standing enmity between groups within Scotland then much of Scotland's history would be very different.

Heck, it's still going on today.
Just look at the vile sectarianism that persists right across the central belt of Scotland.
Certainly don't get that level of bigotry in England or Wales.
But I suspect you'll say that somehow that's by design and its all down to those meddling bastard English.

Highlanders dislike Lowlanders and vice versa.

Sure the English exploited all that as well as the clan disputes that had gone on in Scotland for literally centuries. But if the discord hadn't been there in the first place they wouldn't have been able to would they?
And all that was down to Scots. No-one else, just Scots.

Your constantly portrayal of the Scottish people as some sort of subjugated, downtrodden people really does you a massive disservice and is far from the truth.

a reply to: Midnite247
"We are hurtling towards a Scottish Troubles"

Scottish Nationalists are using tactics straight from the Sinn Fein playbook. That should be enough to get alarm bells ringing



Jamie Blackett
30 March 2021 • 12:03pm Jamie Blackett





"Just when we thought the situation in Scotland could not be any more toxic, we are confronted by Alex Salmond’s re-entry into politics with the inflammatory announcement that ‘peaceful street protests’ will form part of the strategy of the new nationalist front that has, in effect, been formed by the emergence of his new party, Alba, to fight alongside the SNP, much to the dismay of some, but by no means all, in the latter party.

Those of us with direct experience of the troubles in Northern Ireland have been warning for some time about the ‘Ulsterisation’ of Scotland and the slide towards a ‘Scottish troubles’. This deliberate use of the Sinn Fein playbook should set alarm bells ringing. The two movements have close links and have always used similar tactics. Attempts to unify the Unionist vote in the Scottish elections appear now to have failed and the reality is that with Scottish Tories, Labour and Liberals splitting the anti-nationalist vote in constituencies again, and Alba having the capability, if not the certainty, of converting previously impotent second separatist votes into seats on the AV system lists, there has to be worst case contingency planning for the nationalist ‘super-majority’ that Salmond craves.

This putative super-majority of seats would be used to attempt to ramrod through secession. The outlines of a more hardline nationalist strategy have been evident for some time after Joanna Cherry’s proposal to copy de Valera and ‘start negotiations straight away’ without bothering with another referendum. There is no chance of the separatists gaining enough support for copying the unilateral declaration of the Irish Free State, which resulted in a bloody civil war, not least because Westminster would simply choke off the money supply. But it was the threat that counted. And now Salmond’s implied threats of civil disobedience should be taken seriously. Salmond even quoted the Irish nationalist leader Charles Stewart Parnell in his launch speech.

It has to be remembered that the recent Troubles in Northern Ireland started when civil rights marches spiralled out of control. But in Ulster the police were under direct control of a Unionist civil power and resolutely British, whereas in Scotland the newly centralised Police Scotland is under the direct control of a Scottish government that is likely to be separatist. This muscular nationalism also assumes, let’s hope wrongly, that condemnation of a Catalan style revolt from outside the UK may be more equivocal now that we are outside the EU and there is a Biden Presidency with a worrying history of sympathy for the republican cause in Ulster.

Unionists must stop having a sterile argument amongst themselves about vote splitting in the lists. If there is a nationalist majority in Holyrood, the numbers of seats individual parties hold would be far less relevant than the overall number of votes cast for pro-UK parties. We urged the government last year to tie down the mandate for any referendum via a Canada style Clarity Act and explicitly link it to a percentage of the electorate rather than seats. It is vital to get the pro-UK vote out on 6 May and to be able to demonstrate a silent majority for keeping the United Kingdom together. We need to move the focus away from seats won and onto the split of votes between separatist and pro-British parties. Commentators, especially the BBC, need to be careful not to conflate a majority of seats won under an absurd electoral system and a ‘mandate’ for secession. Finally we should shine a very bright light on any attempts at ‘Ulsterisation’ and condemn it robustly. And pray.

Jamie Blackett is a former army officer who served in Northern Ireland and leader of All for Unity (The Alliance for Unity). He is standing in the South of Scotland in the Scottish Parliament election."

www.telegraph.co.uk...

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
a reply to: Midnite247
"We are hurtling towards a Scottish Troubles"

Scottish Nationalists are using tactics straight from the Sinn Fein playbook. That should be enough to get alarm bells ringing



Jamie Blackett
30 March 2021 • 12:03pm Jamie Blackett





"Just when we thought the situation in Scotland could not be any more toxic, we are confronted by Alex Salmond’s re-entry into politics with the inflammatory announcement that ‘peaceful street protests’ will form part of the strategy of the new nationalist front that has, in effect, been formed by the emergence of his new party, Alba, to fight alongside the SNP, much to the dismay of some, but by no means all, in the latter party.

Those of us with direct experience of the troubles in Northern Ireland have been warning for some time about the ‘Ulsterisation’ of Scotland and the slide towards a ‘Scottish troubles’. This deliberate use of the Sinn Fein playbook should set alarm bells ringing. The two movements have close links and have always used similar tactics. Attempts to unify the Unionist vote in the Scottish elections appear now to have failed and the reality is that with Scottish Tories, Labour and Liberals splitting the anti-nationalist vote in constituencies again, and Alba having the capability, if not the certainty, of converting previously impotent second separatist votes into seats on the AV system lists, there has to be worst case contingency planning for the nationalist ‘super-majority’ that Salmond craves.

This putative super-majority of seats would be used to attempt to ramrod through secession. The outlines of a more hardline nationalist strategy have been evident for some time after Joanna Cherry’s proposal to copy de Valera and ‘start negotiations straight away’ without bothering with another referendum. There is no chance of the separatists gaining enough support for copying the unilateral declaration of the Irish Free State, which resulted in a bloody civil war, not least because Westminster would simply choke off the money supply. But it was the threat that counted. And now Salmond’s implied threats of civil disobedience should be taken seriously. Salmond even quoted the Irish nationalist leader Charles Stewart Parnell in his launch speech.

It has to be remembered that the recent Troubles in Northern Ireland started when civil rights marches spiralled out of control. But in Ulster the police were under direct control of a Unionist civil power and resolutely British, whereas in Scotland the newly centralised Police Scotland is under the direct control of a Scottish government that is likely to be separatist. This muscular nationalism also assumes, let’s hope wrongly, that condemnation of a Catalan style revolt from outside the UK may be more equivocal now that we are outside the EU and there is a Biden Presidency with a worrying history of sympathy for the republican cause in Ulster.

Unionists must stop having a sterile argument amongst themselves about vote splitting in the lists. If there is a nationalist majority in Holyrood, the numbers of seats individual parties hold would be far less relevant than the overall number of votes cast for pro-UK parties. We urged the government last year to tie down the mandate for any referendum via a Canada style Clarity Act and explicitly link it to a percentage of the electorate rather than seats. It is vital to get the pro-UK vote out on 6 May and to be able to demonstrate a silent majority for keeping the United Kingdom together. We need to move the focus away from seats won and onto the split of votes between separatist and pro-British parties. Commentators, especially the BBC, need to be careful not to conflate a majority of seats won under an absurd electoral system and a ‘mandate’ for secession. Finally we should shine a very bright light on any attempts at ‘Ulsterisation’ and condemn it robustly. And pray.

Jamie Blackett is a former army officer who served in Northern Ireland and leader of All for Unity (The Alliance for Unity). He is standing in the South of Scotland in the Scottish Parliament election."

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Good to see the telegraph is dusting off its 2014 project fear playbook again.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Sure they are while at the same time Scotland always seems to have been a pro and at the same time anti unionist British province ever since the Romans decided to divide up our island. I guess it's just more of the same

a reply to: ScepticScot

As with most things there is undoubtedly and element of truth in that.

Sure its been exaggerated and spun in a way to play on people's fear's but no-one can deny that bigotry is still thriving in parts of Scotland.
Right across the central belt of Scotland there are many on both sides who have sectarian views and it can't be denied that there are sections within Nationalist/Independent groups that share very similar views to elements within their Irish counterparts that have previously supported Nationalist terrorist groups.
And its also true that within the Unionist ranks there are passionate supporters of Loyalist para-military organisations.

Many people try their best to play this down or even ignore and deny it....but that doesn't make it any less true.

If that bigotry and hatred didn't exist MSM wouldn't be able to drag it out every now and again and spin it to suit their narrative by playing on people's fears.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

As with most things there is undoubtedly and element of truth in that.

Sure its been exaggerated and spun in a way to play on people's fear's but no-one can deny that bigotry is still thriving in parts of Scotland.
Right across the central belt of Scotland there are many on both sides who have sectarian views and it can't be denied that there are sections within Nationalist/Independent groups that share very similar views to elements within their Irish counterparts that have previously supported Nationalist terrorist groups.
And its also true that within the Unionist ranks there are passionate supporters of Loyalist para-military organisations.

Many people try their best to play this down or even ignore and deny it....but that doesn't make it any less true.

If that bigotry and hatred didn't exist MSM wouldn't be able to drag it out every now and again and spin it to suit their narrative by playing on people's fears.

You get bigots everywhere, scotland is no exception and have never claimed it was. However the overwhelming majority of secterian isues never go beyond a few offensive songs at football matches. Something that is hardly unique to North of the Border.

Trying to tie democratic decisions about scotland future to the Troubles is a fairly desperate low even by the standards of the Telegraph.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Please tell me where in the UK, or in Europe/'The West', apart from Ulster and the central belt of Scotland that anywhere near this level of sectarian bigotry exists?

Sure MSM sometimes exaggerates or sensationalises the bigotry but if it didn't exist they wouldn't be able to would they?

But to trivialise it as nothing more than a few songs at football matches is a massive understatement.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

Please tell me where in the UK, or in Europe/'The West', apart from Ulster and the central belt of Scotland that anywhere near this level of sectarian bigotry exists?

Sure MSM sometimes exaggerates or sensationalises the bigotry but if it didn't exist they wouldn't be able to would they?

But to trivialise it as nothing more than a few songs at football matches is a massive understatement.

Bampots will always find something to be bigoted about. Should we have stopped the Brexit referendum because some people voted for racist reasons?

Stating its mostly offensive songs isn't trivialising its reality. That doesn't mean we shouldn't/couldn't do more to tackle it but for the majority of people the majority of time don't care what school someone went to. I would suspect while it's more obvious due the football connection its less cause of discrimination or violence than other forms of bigotry in Scotland or elsewhere in the UK.

Let's non pretend glasgow is one bad night away from being Belfast in the 70s.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Agreed, I was raised a Protestant yet most of my friends are Catholic. Other than jibes at each other and a bit of banter it’s a non issue. Also I’m from one of the more poverty stricken areas of Glasgow where this sectarian divide is allegedly rampant. The real problem is alcohol and alcohol fuelled violence parading as somehow related to what football team you support or which church you choose to worship at.

a reply to: ScepticScot

I've never suggested for one minute that 'glasgow is one bad night away from being Belfast in the 70s.'.....but let's not make out that everything is peace, love and harmony between the two factions.

I've seen and experienced the bigotry first hand.
I've had to face far more aggression and more people trying to intimidate and insult me in Glasgow/Edinburgh/Ayr/Airdrie when they've found out that I am Catholic than I ever have done for being English.

I love Glasgow and its people - of all creeds and denominations - and I've had some great times in Edinburgh too......but please don't try to convince me that the sectarian bigotry that taints it is merely banter or football related.

And if anyone wants to see just how bad the sectarianism is they should go to Airdrie or Coatbridge.

Of course there is discrimination in other parts of the UK and I have no desire to gloss over that, but the fact remains that sectarian bigotry in the UK is pretty much exclusive to the central belt of Scotland and Northern Ireland.
And elements within both camps share similar views and certainly sympathise with the para-militaries.

Its not as common as it used to be, but its still very much there.

And without that bigotry MSM wouldn't be able to exploit it and use it to push their own message.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

I've never suggested for one minute that 'glasgow is one bad night away from being Belfast in the 70s.'.....but let's not make out that everything is peace, love and harmony between the two factions.

I've seen and experienced the bigotry first hand.
I've had to face far more aggression and more people trying to intimidate and insult me in Glasgow/Edinburgh/Ayr/Airdrie when they've found out that I am Catholic than I ever have done for being English.

I love Glasgow and its people - of all creeds and denominations - and I've had some great times in Edinburgh too......but please don't try to convince me that the sectarian bigotry that taints it is merely banter or football related.

And if anyone wants to see just how bad the sectarianism is they should go to Airdrie or Coatbridge.

Of course there is discrimination in other parts of the UK and I have no desire to gloss over that, but the fact remains that sectarian bigotry in the UK is pretty much exclusive to the central belt of Scotland and Northern Ireland.
And elements within both camps share similar views and certainly sympathise with the para-militaries.

Its not as common as it used to be, but its still very much there.

And without that bigotry MSM wouldn't be able to exploit it and use it to push their own message.

If you read back you find my post was in relation to a linked article comparing the prospect of scottish independence to the troubles which you replied there is an element of truth in.

If you have faced aggression in scotland based on your religion then that is completely unacceptable, but if it has has happened as often as you suggest then you are either extremely unlucky or have terrible taste in pubs.

I have lived in Scotland my entire life including some fairly rough areas and drank in far more pubs than I would dare to admit to my doctor ( including those areas you have mentioned)I have never once faced intimidation or violence based on religion. The only football related violence i have ever been involved in was when Aberdeen fans attacked Rangers fans on a train.

That of course doesn't mean sectarian violence doesn't exist but is far from the norm and to reiterate again Scotland is nothing like Belfast during the troubles (or even now).

Sectarianism like all forms of bigotry should be condemed but trying to link it to indepenence is just pathetic project fear rehash.

a reply to: ScepticScot

If you read back you find my post was in relation to a linked article comparing the prospect of scottish independence to the troubles which you replied there is an element of truth in.

There is an element of truth in saying that some people connected to or who support the Scottish Nationalist/independence movement sympathise with Irish Nationalists and even more extreme para-military groups.
Same as some Unionist's sympathise and even actively support Loyalist extremist organisations.

Can anyone deny that?

If you have faced aggression in scotland based on your religion then that is completely unacceptable, but if it has has happened as often as you suggest then you are either extremely unlucky or have terrible taste in pubs.

Well it has happened, in Glasgow and Edinburgh each on more than one occasion, once in Ayr - which was actually more laughable than anything else - and once in Airdrie - which was pretty scary and I assure you I am not someone that scares easily.

I have visited Scotland on many occasions, for both business and pleasure and I don't want to portray these occurrences as the norm because they most definitely are not.
Some of my business dealings in the past have put me in quite 'tricky' situations.
Most Scots are not sectarian bigots, but, some are - far more than anywhere else in the UK other than Ulster - and it still is an issue.

That of course doesn't mean sectarian violence doesn't exist but is far from the norm and to reiterate again Scotland is nothing like Belfast during the troubles (or even now).

Yes, I know.

Sectarian violence is no doubt on the decline.....but sectarian bigotry still exists right across the central belt of Scotland.

Sectarianism like all forms of bigotry should be thought condemed but trying to link it to indepenence is just pathetic project fear rehash.

Indeed.
But if the sectarianism didn't exist or was far less of an issue they wouldn't be able to link it would they.
And that's been my point all along - people exploiting and manipulating existing discord and enmity.
Its an old tactic and one that works very well.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

If you read back you find my post was in relation to a linked article comparing the prospect of scottish independence to the troubles which you replied there is an element of truth in.

There is an element of truth in saying that some people connected to or who support the Scottish Nationalist/independence movement sympathise with Irish Nationalists and even more extreme para-military groups.
Same as some Unionist's sympathise and even actively support Loyalist extremist organisations.

Can anyone deny that?

If you have faced aggression in scotland based on your religion then that is completely unacceptable, but if it has has happened as often as you suggest then you are either extremely unlucky or have terrible taste in pubs.

Well it has happened, in Glasgow and Edinburgh each on more than one occasion, once in Ayr - which was actually more laughable than anything else - and once in Airdrie - which was pretty scary and I assure you I am not someone that scares easily.

I have visited Scotland on many occasions, for both business and pleasure and I don't want to portray these occurrences as the norm because they most definitely are not.
Some of my business dealings in the past have put me in quite 'tricky' situations.
Most Scots are not sectarian bigots, but, some are - far more than anywhere else in the UK other than Ulster - and it still is an issue.

That of course doesn't mean sectarian violence doesn't exist but is far from the norm and to reiterate again Scotland is nothing like Belfast during the troubles (or even now).

Yes, I know.

Sectarian violence is no doubt on the decline.....but sectarian bigotry still exists right across the central belt of Scotland.

Sectarianism like all forms of bigotry should be thought condemed but trying to link it to indepenence is just pathetic project fear rehash.

Indeed.
But if the sectarianism didn't exist or was far less of an issue they wouldn't be able to link it would they.
And that's been my point all along - people exploiting and manipulating existing discord and enmity.
Its an old tactic and one that works very well.

Some people supported brexit are racist racist/islamaphobic I seem to remember you , quite rightly get very annoyed at any suggestion brexit was racially motivated.

If racism didn't exist they wouldn't be able to link that so obviously there isnt an element if truth in it?

I am not making excuses for sectarian behaviour at all but it is a minority of idiots and the majority of what does occur is based round football rather than anything more insidious, you get morons who waive IRA or UDF flags at games but I suspect most of them would crap themselves if faced with anything resembling real terrorist activity. The reality is it isn't any worse than many other football rivalries but just with a religious overlay that makes it more distasteful.

There is still some other more subtle sectarianism that exist but thankfully that is becoming more and more rare. The days of having to lie about what secondary school you went to when applying for a job are now more or less a thing of the past.

Suggesting that Scotland is comparable to NI during the Troubles due to sectarianism is comparable to suggesting Yorkshire is comparable to the Middle East due to islampahobia or racists in the Midlands is like the deep south during the 50s.

Personally if I was a union supporter I would take grave offensive at the idea that independence would provoke that type of violence when we have had nothing comparable from independence supporters as part of the union.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
a reply to: Midnite247


It has to be remembered that the recent Troubles in Northern Ireland started when civil rights marches spiralled out of control.

Jamie Blackett is a former army officer who no doubt was quite happy to collude with protestant paramilitaries in Northern Ireland and no doubt hi-fived his brave comrade when they killed that bunch of well-known rabble-rousers and trouble makers the Miami Showband.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Fact. The troubles were not started when civil rights marches "got out of hand". More typical Unionist revisionism cheery picking. He clearly forgets his comrades gunning down innocent protestors on a number of these civil rights marches.


The trouble started in Northern Ireland when those pesky Catholics had the cheek to ask to be treated as equals". The Protestant community couldn't have that. They couldn't have the Catholics getting ideas above their station. It had to be a Protestant enclave...always. Operation "burn them out" started.

The IRA was re-formed to protect their community through necessity.

I think we know who and what Jamie Blackett stands for. Typical Unionist flag shagger.

If Scotland turns into another Northern Ireland situation we all know who it is that will be firing the first shot. They can't even be happy without being raging at something. Permanent rage is in their DNA. It's like 28 days later with these morons.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

You make some excellent points as per usual Solo, it's quite amazing how education such posts are when one grew up in England slightly blinked by the media on what was really going on in Ireland. Whole businesses, inductees, UK institutions closed to people of a certain religion / background. Only very recently. Unbelievable.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

I'm half Welsh, half Scottish Celt. My ex (full blown Welsh Celtic) always used to say, historically the Celtic Nations are a warring 'tribe'. If they are not fighting somebody else, they end up turning on each other.

Rainbows
Jane

a reply to: Freeborn

I was born and raised in Coatbridge.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Solo, please start a thread about The Troubles and I'll gladly contribute.
Discussing the start of The Troubles - as we all know its roots go back centuries - and what happened during those dark days will only serve to detract from this threads topic.

What I will say is that its just that locked in mindset, on both sides, that perpetuates the bigotry.

The fact is that sectarian bigotry is more or less non-existent in the UK except in Northern Ireland and the central belt of Scotland.
No-one can deny that.